or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › A Boomer Tries to Rub the Blindspot Away: Michael Kinsley
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

A Boomer Tries to Rub the Blindspot Away: Michael Kinsley - Page 3

post #81 of 142
As BR points out, Hong Kong is a perfect example of our world view, a view which is NOT anti-Freedom. Hong Kong mixes freedom with rights and protections, and has plenty of socialism. This demonstrates exactly what I'm saying in the above post.
post #82 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You have a right to your life but you do not have a right to enslave another person.

Other people are not your property.

Does that help?

So when someone gets sick and can't afford treatment, what then? Does his family suffer because that's the luck of the draw?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #83 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As BR points out, Hong Kong is a perfect example of our world view, a view which is NOT anti-Freedom. Hong Kong mixes freedom with rights and protections, and has plenty of socialism. This demonstrates exactly what I'm saying in the above post.

Yup. It's totally disingenuous to put that up as a Libertarian paradise. It's a much better example of a Social Democracy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #84 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As BR points out, Hong Kong is a perfect example of our world view, a view which is NOT anti-Freedom. Hong Kong mixes freedom with rights and protections, and has plenty of socialism. This demonstrates exactly what I'm saying in the above post.

If Hong Kong is, then we're in agreement. We're done. Now we just need to implement the Hong Kong model in the US. That will require cutting taxes and government spending...a lot.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #85 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No it doesn't. This is a misunderstanding.

I'll reply in kind:

No, actually it does. It is a misunderstanding that it does not.

Now, does that sort of a cowardly reply help? Of course it doesn't.

The banking meltdown is a perfect example of deregulation leading to corruption and ultimately failure.
post #86 of 142
So MJ, you ARE for universal healthcare. And taxes.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #87 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So MJ, you ARE for universal healthcare. And taxes.

No and no. But I can see how you misunderstood me.

First, we agree that Hong Kong is closer to the model I'd like to see. The US is far away from that. If I could not get the ideal model, Hong Kong would be closer. From a US perspective that means much lower taxes and much smaller government, much less government spending and much less crony capitalism, etc.

As for universal healthcare, I believe that there are better, market-driven approaches to solve the problems with healthcare. I didn't say Hong Kong was perfect...but it would be closer on most issues than the US currently is.

I hope this has clarified things.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #88 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'll reply in kind:

No, actually it does. It is a misunderstanding that it does not.

Now, does that sort of a cowardly reply help? Of course it doesn't.

The banking meltdown is a perfect example of deregulation leading to corruption and ultimately failure.

I suspect you think you understand the underlying causes of the meltdown, but don't really.

Simply put the banking and monetary and credit system of the US is nothing at all like a free-market system. Whether regulations changed or not, fundamentally it is a government-backed, sponsored and controlled cartel and monopoly. When you understand this fundamental fact, you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #89 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, actually it does. It is a misunderstanding that it does not.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

But I won't refer to your posts as cowardly.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #90 of 142
All bow before the almighty Market. May His Invisible Hand guide us.

Libertarianism, the Theological Political Worldview. No wonder it's so attractive to the religious. Libertarianism requires so much belief without evidence, only the religious would buy into it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #91 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

All bow before the almighty Market. May His Invisible Hand guide us.

Libertarianism, the Theological Political Worldview. No wonder it's so attractive to the religious. Libertarianism requires so much belief without evidence, only the religious would buy into it.

And we have yet another example from BR why mature, civilized discourse is nearly impossible or, if it starts, quickly derails.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #92 of 142
Oh yes, you've been so mature and civilized all day.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #93 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh yes, you've been so mature and civilized all day.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #94 of 142
So...in short...if the US wanted to adopt a similar approach to Hong Kong...which would include total government spending (state local and federal) of around 19% of GDP (that's about half what it spends now) and a tax regime similar to HK (which would lower personal incomes taxes to the 2-17% range and corporate income taxes below 17%) and trade tariffs of zero and reducing other trade barriers.

Then sure...that would be good.

P.S. Another point to make here is that HK currently spends about US $5.4 billion per year on its social welfare programs for a population of about 7M. A corresponding level for the US with a population of 308M would be around US $230 billion. It's hard to find clear numbers for the current US expenditures on this...but it looks like around $1 trillion (or more). Not sure if I'm comparing like programs or not though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #95 of 142
So, cut the shit out of the military. Uncap the payroll tax to keep Social Security solvent. Universalize Healthcare and allow for negotiation of pharmaceuticals from Canada to decrease costs. End the wars. Give every American free access to higher education.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #96 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, cut the shit out of the military. Uncap the payroll tax to keep Social Security solvent. Universalize Healthcare and allow for negotiation of pharmaceuticals from Canada to decrease costs. End the wars. Give every American free access to higher education.

Some of those will work, some won't.

I agree with ending the wars and reducing military spending. It won't be enough though.

I'd phase out SS in some way. Or at least turn it back into what it originated as...a modest safety net for the last couple years of life. Privatize nearly all education.

But again...we disagree on approaches. And that's ok...no need to be angry about it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #97 of 142
• Universal, (almost) free health care.
• Heavily subsidized housing.
• Social assistance.
• Free social services.
• Old age allowance.
• Government sponsored work programs.
• Minimum wage.
• Standard tax deduction which means 60% of wage earners pay no income tax.
• No corporate profit tax loopholes.
• No sales tax.
• No import tariffs except on automobiles, luxury goods, alcohol and tobacco.
• No publicly owned guns.
• Fantastic public transportation system, private, but government invested and subsidized.
• Anti-discrimination laws.

Now it's the Libertarians' turn to tell me the benefits of the Hong Kong system.
post #98 of 142
Universal, (almost) free health care. -- From what I've read it's a 2-tier system with the government providing basic catastrophic insurance which is very different from what's going on in the US.
Heavily subsidized housing.
Social assistance.
Free social services.
Old age allowance.
Government sponsored work programs.
Minimum wage.
Standard tax deduction which means 60% of wage earners pay no income tax. -- And much lower income tax rates.
No corporate profit tax loopholes. -- And much lower corporate income tax rates.
No sales tax. -- We have this at the state levels.
No import tariffs except on automobiles, luxury goods, alcohol and tobacco. -- better than the US
No publicly owned guns.
Fantastic public transportation system, private, but government invested and subsidized.
Anti-discrimination laws.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #99 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now it's the Libertarians' turn to tell me the benefits of the Hong Kong system.

Overall it is the most economically free economy in the world.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #100 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

...
P.S. Another point to make here is that HK currently spends about US $5.4 billion per year on its social welfare programs for a population of about 7M. A corresponding level for the US with a population of 308M would be around US $230 billion. It's hard to find clear numbers for the current US expenditures on this...but it looks like around $1 trillion (or more). Not sure if I'm comparing like programs or not though.

We might also keep in mind that HK (and many other countries) do NOT provide their federally funded programs "free" to non-citizens. A darn good idea.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #101 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

• Universal, (almost) free health care. -- From what I've read it's a 2-tier system with the government providing basic catastrophic insurance which is very different from what's going on in the US.

What you've heard is wrong, apparently. It's a free, non-means tested, fully functional service, available to all residents (not just citizens). Even temporary visitors are provided a huge subsidy. I can go to a public hospital A&E department for the flu. And pay a US$12.50 administration (and anti-abuse) fee for three days' medicine. And I can go to a public hospital A&E for more serious issues. Like my reflux esophagitis. In fact I did. I had an endoscopy last month. I had to wait two months for this, but I don't mind, if it means I don't have to pay several thousand Hong Kong dollars for the same procedure. Which I can choose to do if I don't want to wait. I was given eight weeks' medicine. I will have a follow-up endoscopy next month. Total cost to me, including medicine -- US$25. Plus whatever was taken out of my taxes.
Quote:
• Standard tax deduction which means 60% of wage earners pay no income tax. -- And much lower income tax rates.

Yep. But the US needs to spend more per capita on infrastructure and defense. This is the only reason, but a valid reason, income taxes need to be higher in the US.
Quote:
• No corporate profit tax loopholes. -- And much lower corporate income tax rates.

Close the loopholes in the US and we can lower taxes after that.
Quote:
• No sales tax. -- We have this at the state levels.

Which is not a good system. We don't have it at any level.
Quote:
• No import tariffs except on automobiles, luxury goods, alcohol and tobacco. -- better than the US

Yep.
post #102 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yep. But the US needs to spend more per capita on infrastructure and defense.

What infrastructure are you talking about?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Close the loopholes in the US and we can lower taxes after that.

I'm all in favor of a simplified tax system (fewer deductions, lower rates).


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Which is not a good system.

We disagree on this. To me the best tax system would be:

- no property taxes
- no invest earnings, capital gains, dividend or savings taxes
- no income taxes
- small simple single rate sales tax

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #103 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What you've heard is wrong, apparently. It's a free, non-means tested, fully functional service, available to all residents (not just citizens). Even temporary visitors are provided a huge subsidy. I can go to a public hospital A&E department for the flu. And pay a US$12.50 administration (and anti-abuse) fee for three days' medicine. And I can go to a public hospital A&E for more serious issues. Like my reflux esophagitis. In fact I did. I had an endoscopy last month. I had to wait two months for this, but I don't mind, if it means I don't have to pay several thousand Hong Kong dollars for the same procedure. Which I can choose to do if I don't want to wait. I was given eight weeks' medicine. I will have a follow-up endoscopy next month. Total cost to me, including medicine -- US$25. Plus whatever was taken out of my taxes.

I doubt any of that is going to have any long-term negative consequences.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #104 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

We might also keep in mind that HK (and many other countries) do NOT provide their federally funded programs "free" to non-citizens. A darn good idea.

On the contrary. You're 100% wrong about Hong Kong. It seems you didn't even try.

As I've pointed out, all residents, not just citizens, qualify for free health care. Even visitors qualify for subsidized health care.

All Mainland Chinese immigrants, even before they are granted citizenship, also qualify for nearly free housing. They qualify for social assistance. They qualify for Government sponsored social services.

So please, know what you're talking about before you open your mouth... er... keyboard.
post #105 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'll bite. Then it's your turn.

I would say, obviously, Denmark, Sweden, Norway... but then you'll turn around and defend yourself by being imtellectually dishonest and saying that those nations are all rich ONLY because of oil. So instead, I'll say The Netherlands; Belgium. Of course you'll again be intellectually dishonest and say those nations are only successful at using the social democratic model because they're small, or because they're homogenous, or because of tourism... or whatever other intellectually dishonest excuse you can come up with.

I'll even do your homework for you, and show where the Scandinavian model has failed. Iceland. But there are easy fixes to a system to prevent the Iceland effect.

Now, instead of arguing with regard to my answers, which I know you are itching in your pants to do, you give us your example.

Your turn.

If you want to know what someone thinks, don't ask a question and then answer it with what you assume their answer will be and call them intellectually dishonest. It makes them inclined to ignore you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #106 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If you want to know what someone thinks, don't ask a question and then answer it with what you assume their answer will be and call them intellectually dishonest. It makes them inclined to ignore you.

Fair enough. So let me ask you, why do you think Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Holland have such low poverty and such a high standard of living? Then please provide your example of a place where a Libertarian approach has been successful, absent of strong social policy. Thanks.
post #107 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Fair enough. So let me ask you, why do you think Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Holland have such low poverty and such a high standard of living? Then please provide your example of a place where a Libertarian approach has been successful, absent of strong social policy. Thanks.

I do not know enough about Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Holland to answer your question without doing some research.

However, from the little I do know, their success in certain areas cannot be attributed to any one overriding political or economical philosophy (capitalism, socialism, etc.) but a combination of many different things.

For example, Denmark's low unemployment seems to be a result of their deregulation of the labor market in the 1990s.

An experiment in true libertarianism would require a government much like the one our founding fathers sought to establish. Probably closer to the one outlined in the Articles of Confederation than our present Constitution. To my knowledge, such a government does not currently exist.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #108 of 142
You do realize they quickly dissolved the original iteration of the United States and rewrote the Constitution in 1789 because the Articles of Confederation DID NOT WORK.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #109 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You do realize they quickly dissolved the original iteration of the United States and rewrote the Constitution in 1789 because the Articles of Confederation DID NOT WORK.

Well...maybe...that's not entirely clear.

There were some political shenanigans going on that make this kind of claim much less clear.

What is clear is that there was a faction that was bent on trying to centralize and consolidate power and the Articles of Confederation made that difficult to do. So, instead of making a few adjustments (as was expected), they threw it out and created what we call "the Constitution" now which considerably centralized and consolidated power in the central government. And while it is often thought of as being an instrument of limited government, a more careful examination reveals huge loopholes and rather vague "limits" that enabled massive and unrestricted governmental expansion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #110 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So please, know what you're talking about before you open your mouth... er... keyboard.

I certainly wasn't offered free housing when I was there.

But my direct experience as a non-citizen resident was with Australia... where non residents have to pay tuition to use the public school system, they have to pay premiums to use the public healthcare system, and pay higher tax rates than citizens... none of which bothered me in the least.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #111 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

On the contrary. You're 100% wrong about Hong Kong. It seems you didn't even try.

As I've pointed out, all residents, not just citizens, qualify for free health care. Even visitors qualify for subsidized health care.

All Mainland Chinese immigrants, even before they are granted citizenship, also qualify for nearly free housing. They qualify for social assistance. They qualify for Government sponsored social services.

So please, know what you're talking about before you open your mouth... er... keyboard.

You are intentionally making it sound like there is some sort of open border policy when nothing could be further from the truth. The entire country is walled off from Mainland China. Who can come and go or receive these services is strictly sanctioned. You must carry ID on you at all times and the police can ask you for it at any time under threat of arrest if you do not identify yourself.

If someone is a resident, it is they have been legally allowed to come there. They didn't just stroll over from mainland China and start receiving services.

However perhaps that is what they ought to do per your reasoning. I wonder how long that would be sustainable.

Hey tonton, where does Hong Kong get all their food? They certainly don't grow it all there. Do they extend universal health care to all the peasants picking their food for them in China? Do they allow them to free pass through those gates and come sit at the same table as you?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #112 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well...maybe...that's not entirely clear.

There were some political shenanigans going on that make this kind of claim much less clear.

What is clear is that there was a faction that was bent on trying to centralize and consolidate power and the Articles of Confederation made that difficult to do. So, instead of making a few adjustments (as was expected), they threw it out and created what we call "the Constitution" now which considerably centralized and consolidated power in the central government. And while it is often thought of as being an instrument of limited government, a more careful examination reveals huge loopholes and rather vague "limits" that enabled massive and unrestricted governmental expansion.

Indeed. The Articles of Confederation worked too well at decentralizing power and keeping it with the states and the people.

For example, here are some of the differences the Articles have from the Constitution:
  • the federal government AND the states had the power to coin money
  • the federal legislature was unicameral (simply "Congress")
  • representatives were appointed by state legislatures in the manner each state saw fit
  • representatives had 1 year terms and term limits of no more than 3 out of every 6 years
  • Congressional pay was paid by the states, not the federal government
  • there was no Executive branch (President)

Clearly, those who wanted to consolidate power would have found it virtually impossible to do under the Articles of Confederation. Hence the "need" for our present Constitution.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #113 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Uncap the payroll tax to keep Social Security solvent.

No. Privatize social security.

Chile did it 30 years ago.

It worked.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #114 of 142
Speaking of Denmark, I came across this interesting and informative piece:

Denmark: Potemkin Village

Quote:
Danish politicians proudly proclaims that Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world. They may be right. The obsession with equality delivers a crushing, daily blow to anyone with a new idea or the inkling to cultivate an ability that surpasses the norm. Young people have virtually no chance to improve their lot in life, to take risks, to make it big through innovation and entrepreneurship.

Excellent and hard work are not rewarded by a system that systematically levels the population into a huge homogenous middle class, whose standard of living advances only incrementally and in ways that flout economic priorities. A total tax level that approaches 70 percent is a relentless and debilitating reminder that this country desires no personal economic achievement and no accumulation of wealth.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #115 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Speaking of Denmark, I came across this interesting and informative piece:

Denmark: Potemkin Village

What part of any of that is not opinion?

All the data presented in this opinion piece comes from a presumed point of view that taxes are bad. I don't think taxes are bad. I don't disagree with any of the factual data presented.

But...


And yet many people seem to be happy with this system
Exactly! That's the fucking point! People are happy. A system where people are happy, all the people (not just some) is the Goal! Except for the greedy, uncompassionate, over competitive people who enjoy seeing others in a lesser position than they.

Of course it sets up a dynamic that harms everyone in the long run,
Huh!? Where is this demonstrated? The author just jumped to a totally disconnected assumption that at best is naivety and at worst a bold-faced lie.

Equality and stability are regarded as more important than progress and freedom.
Bull. Shit.

Freedom for whom? Progress toward what end?

Happiness is regarded as more important than per-capita GDP. As it should be.

I love this article. It absolutely proves my point.
post #116 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You are intentionally making it sound like there is some sort of open border policy when nothing could be further from the truth. The entire country is walled off from Mainland China. Who can come and go or receive these services is strictly sanctioned. You must carry ID on you at all times and the police can ask you for it at any time under threat of arrest if you do not identify yourself.

If someone is a resident, it is they have been legally allowed to come there. They didn't just stroll over from mainland China and start receiving services.

However perhaps that is what they ought to do per your reasoning. I wonder how long that would be sustainable.

Hey tonton, where does Hong Kong get all their food? They certainly don't grow it all there. Do they extend universal health care to all the peasants picking their food for them in China? Do they allow them to free pass through those gates and come sit at the same table as you?

I love how Tonton continues to present Hong Kong as the solution to the world when they can't grow food, live behind a giant wall and have much lower tax rates than the United States.

Do you think if a Republican ran on a platform of cutting all our tax rates in half, limiting government spending for health care services to providing some basic care for those legally allowed in the country and built giant walls to keep out all the people peasant farmers that they would have any trouble getting elected in the United States?

You keep advocating what amounts to the Tea Party while being to blind to see the irony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What part of any of that is not opinion?

All the data presented in this opinion piece comes from a presumed point of view that taxes are bad. I don't think taxes are bad. I don't disagree with any of the factual data presented.

But...


And yet many people seem to be happy with this system
Exactly! That's the fucking point! People are happy. A system where people are happy, all the people (not just some) is the Goal! Except for the greedy, uncompassionate, over competitive people who enjoy seeing others in a lesser position than they.

Of course it sets up a dynamic that harms everyone in the long run,
Huh!? Where is this demonstrated? The author just jumped to a totally disconnected assumption that at best is naivety and at worst a bold-faced lie.

Equality and stability are regarded as more important than progress and freedom.
Bull. Shit.

Freedom for whom? Progress toward what end?

Happiness is regarded as more important than per-capita GDP. As it should be.

I love this article. It absolutely proves my point.

I'm seriously starting to wonder about your comprehension skills. Words have lost their meaning for you.

Hey is Franksargent still out there anywhere? Ol' Timmy G is spending his pension.


Quote:
Treasury secretaries have tapped special programs to avoid default six times since 1985. The most protracted delay in raising the debt limit came in 1995 after congressional Republicans swept to power during the Clinton administration.

But today, the government needs far more money to cover its obligations than in the past, making the special measures less effective than they used to be. The government needs about $125 billion more a month than it takes in each month.

Dear World,

We need to borrow Apple Inc. every 90 days. Don't worry, the kids, grandkids and the lawn man will pay it back after we are dead. We promise!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #117 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I love how Tonton continues to present Hong Kong as the solution to the world when they can't grow food, live behind a giant wall and have much lower tax rates than the United States.

China doesn't give their food to Hong Kong for free. And yes, there is a lot of meat and produce that is locally produced, for your information. Most of our beef comes from Australia, not China. Most of our pork is local. Our oranges are almost all Sunkist, from the good ol' US of A.

So please. Show your ignorance the backdoor before you speak out of it.

Quote:
Do you think if a Republican ran on a platform of cutting all our tax rates in half, limiting government spending for health care services to providing some basic care for those legally allowed in the country and built giant walls to keep out all the people peasant farmers that they would have any trouble getting elected in the United States?

You don't put the cart before the horse. Cut spending first, then cut taxes. But do it while you enable the lower and middle class to live at a reasonable standard of living.
Quote:
You keep advocating what amounts to the Tea Party while being to blind to see the irony.

Nope. The Tea Party wants to cut taxes first, thinking that cutting taxes can magically increase revenue, which is idiotic. The Tea Party would love to eliminate minimum wage, which is idiotic. The Tea Party wants to cut regulations which keep people from getting sick or dying at restaurants, or which keep deep drilling oil rigs from exploding and creating ecological and economic disasters.
Quote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder about your comprehension skills. Words have lost their meaning for you.

Care to respond to my post, or are you just throwing out bullshit, as usual?

"...people seem to be happy with this system."

That's all I need to know. Thanks.
post #118 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


You don't put the cart before the horse. Cut spending first, then cut taxes. But do it while you enable the lower and middle class to live at a reasonable standard of living.

I have yet to see any high office Politician do what you have posted here. And as for recently. It has been the exact opposite.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #119 of 142
From what I can see some of the ones that cut taxes are also trying to reduce spending by reducing the amount of funds available to be spent. The problem is, when the govt runs out of funds, they increase their credit line instead of making cuts.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #120 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Speaking of Denmark, I came across this interesting and informative piece:

Denmark: Potemkin Village

This is utterly, 100% false.

Denmark's major earning export is knowledge and research. It's frequently called the best place in the world to open a new business.

The standard of living is HIGHER IN DENMARK THAN IT IS IN THE UNITED STATES. You can whine about the tax policy, and everyone in Denmark does, all the time.

And then they pick up the kids from the free playschool and go home to watch something on their flatscreen TV and plan a holiday to Thailand.

The Danish middle class is pretty repellent, but there's no poverty, at all. There are fewer stinking wealthy people. And it comes top in the happiness indices year after year.

Which might just prove that there's more to a successful society than a tiny minority getting stinking rich, and there's more to life than money.

Ai, ai.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › A Boomer Tries to Rub the Blindspot Away: Michael Kinsley