Location tracking probe expands despite 2001 FCC law requiring all phones track users - Page 2

Originally Posted by melgross

Except that this w as explained a year ago to Congress by Apple. This isn't something new, or something that they don't already know. Apple stated that it was for the purpose of building up a map of Cell towers, as other cell providers are doing. It's to aid the purpose of knowing where people in general are going so as to find the most needed places for transmitters.

It was made plenty clear. Why the database in the phone holds such o,d data, I don't know, but as that data is being collected every 12 hours, it can be kept forever anyway, so I don't see the big deal here. As it can also easily be encrypted, it's not something that's being collected no matter what. If someone doesn't want others to see it, they can encrypt their data backups.

What I consider far more invidious is what Eric Schmitt said several times in speeches about Google's intentions, which is something being forgotten in this situation. He, quite baldly, said that that someday Google would know more about you than you do about yourself, and that they would make decisions for you before you knew you would want to make them. Now, THAT worries me!

I don't recall Apple ever indicating, at any time, that something like that was in their sights.

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

I've been following this story rather closely, and there hasn't been any info yet that I've seen which would indicate Apple ever downloads your location data.

If you're going to throw 100% of the blame on Apple, the onus is on you to reference the data and tell us where you got this tidbit of information from.

Originally Posted by solipsism

How many times must this rehashed? The log is kept on your device and in your iTunes folder backup for your device for the very reason one wold expect your phone to know your location on a cellular network. Consolidated.db is not sent to Apple. They are not tracking you.

The only things sent to Apple are zipcodes that are not tied to a device or a user. This is a separate issue from the consolidated.db and was dealt with almost a year ago in both a change in the privacy policy and a letter to a senator explaining all this.

Originally Posted by FreeRange

Only complete morons think this is an issue. My god, my phone is collecting and storing my personal information and only on my own personal devices which I control! Oh, that's right, it's my email, contacts, personal documents, calendar, etc. etc. etc.

Idiots abound!

Originally Posted by muppetry

You stated previously in post 18 that these data are transmitted to Apple every 12 hours, and another poster commented that this information seemed inconsistent with most other reports. Do you have a source or reference for that?

Originally Posted by neiltc13

I'm not bothered about whether my phone stores data about where I go. What I am bothered about is that when Apple is asked what data their phone stores, there is a huge silence and no comment from the company, but when Google is asked the same question they give a prompt and clear reply.

What does Apple have to hide?

Originally Posted by melgross

If I can find it again.

Originally Posted by muppetry

If this is the statement to which you refer, then it appears to state that the cell tower and wifi data contained within consolidated.db may be transmitted to Apple if:

1. The location services option is ON and,
   
2. The user launches an app that requests location services.

Originally Posted by magicj

The problem is "consolidated.db" doesn't operate in accordance with the policies defined in that document. The user cannot turn it off and the data it stores is kept forever. Even if you get a new phone, the old data is copied to the new phone via iTunes.

Originally Posted by magicj

A very poorly written article filled with so many bad pieces of information that I'm not going to spend time debunking it.

I'll just say that, speaking as an small iPhone developer, my iPhone is now off and will stay off until this issue is resolved.

Originally Posted by solipsism

And there is no device or user data sent and all lat/long locations are converted to a zipcode and then immediately deleted.

Surely people expect apps that you allow know your devices specific location will know your general location.

Originally Posted by sprockkets

Look, we know that this whole fiasco is nothing, but what does locating people when they call 911 have to do with private companies tracking you for business purposes?

Originally Posted by solipsism

Where is Apple tracking YOU without your consent?

Originally Posted by sprockkets

That's not what I asked or brought up.

Originally Posted by magicj

And perhaps Apple will make that argument to Congress. But I doubt it will get very far. Tracking someones movements whether they want it done or not is something that's done to criminals.

Anyway, bringing "consolidated.db" in line with the iPhone EULA (i.e. the user can turn it off) and encrypting the data would go a long way towards making me happy with how they're handling this data.

Originally Posted by magicj

It's also lying around on your computer via iTunes. From there, anyone can write a Mac or PC application that accesses the data. Two guys doing exactly that is what set this whole thing off to begin with.

Originally Posted by muppetry

That does seem to be kind of essential, but the specific complaints, as I interpret them, are slightly different:

1. Apple is collecting and storing your location data (presumably not anonymized, although may people don't seem to understand the difference).
   
2. Even if Apple is not collecting it then it is lying around unnecessarily unencrypted on your phone (although as has been pointed out before - there is likely much more sensitive information to be harvested from your phone).

Originally Posted by solipsism

1) They said last year the zipcode they collect is anonymous. Not connection to a device or user.
2) Your phone isnt open to the world. Its not like you can read the info on the phone or copy to some other drive as easily as you see in movies by attached some dongle or getting near some BT receiver. And even if they could is that generalized location data really more important than the other data on your phone? Do people think that their contacts are stored in 5 layers of AES-256 encryption on their phone? And if it bothers people they can encrypt their backups on their PC which also should be password protected.

Originally Posted by muppetry

If this is the statement to which you refer, then it appears to state that the cell tower and wifi data contained within consolidated.db may be transmitted to Apple ...

Originally Posted by CurtisEMayle

It is and the data, when transmitted, is done so anonymously.

Originally Posted by muppetry

If this is the statement to which you refer, then it appears to state that the cell tower and wifi data contained within consolidated.db may be transmitted to Apple if:

1. The location services option is ON and,
   
2. The user launches an app that requests location services.

Originally Posted by melgross

I posted that statement before I came to your post. The statement also says that it will transmit info even if location services are turned off. The other info is often info that being requested by apps,where your exact location is needed, and wanted, by both yourself, and the app, for the purposes you purchased the app. For example; where's the nearest Mexican restaurant? Well, not useful if the app doesn't know where you are.

But Apple is collecting triangulated locations of where you are mostly from cell tower info that's not very accurate for knowing exactly where you are, but accurate enough to know if enough towers are in place for a good signal. So it MAY have the info for several hundred to a couple of thousand feet of where you may be.

Originally Posted by magicj

Just as a reminder, the issue isn't just whether or not Apple is collecting data. It's also who has access to your data via iTunes.

With that said, I'm off to bed.

Originally Posted by magicj

Points 1-4 that you used to arrive at your conclusions I think are all either wrong or irrelevant, but I don't feel like arguing them because the conclusions are the important part to me.

Originally Posted by Steven N.

As a small developer myself, what issue? I decided to check out just how accurate the data is that is collected in regard to my true location. Over a 36 hour period, I found it could pin point my location within the Phoenix metro to within a 43 square mile area.

http://www.noisetech-software.com/Di...atability.html

So from what I see, it is pretty clear:

1) When you upgrade an iOS device or activate it, you are given an option to Opt-Out of sharing data with Apple. This falls under the "Diagnostic and Usage Data". Clicking on "Details" will spell out things more. With the Opt-Out set, you will still get location data available on the device but items like crash logs and location data will not be shared.

2) Under Settings->General-Restrictions, you can turn off Location for the "Following Apps". Apple never claims, for those that read, that all location data is turned off. Just specific apps cannot use location data.

3) Location data is still used for things like emergency calling where rapid and accurate location determination can be life saving.

4) Passively collecting this data VS driving cars (like Foursquare and Google with StreetView) saves about 1000 tons of CO2/year from being emitted.

The only real issue is Apple needs to simply cull the data and not keep an infinite amount. Keep 2 weeks or 2 months or some set amount that is reasonable to achieve the desired effect. Likewise, using the Data Protection APIs (if they are not already) to make sure the actual data is encrypted on the device. For those that think this is an issue, it is easily handled by the user by using strong pass codes on handsets, logins and encrypted iPhone backups.

Originally Posted by magicj

It's also lying around on your computer via iTunes. From there, anyone can write a Mac or PC application that accesses the data. Two guys doing exactly that is what set this whole thing off to begin with.

Originally Posted by muppetry

I still don't see where it says that the data may be transmitted if location services are off. I'm looking at page 7 main text and footnote 8. What am I missing?

Originally Posted by magicj

Just as a reminder, the issue isn't just whether or not Apple is collecting data. It's also who has access to your data via iTunes.

With that said, I'm off to bed.

Originally Posted by muppetry

You stated previously in post 18 that these data are transmitted to Apple every 12 hours, and another poster commented that this information seemed inconsistent with most other reports. Do you have a source or reference for that?

Originally Posted by melgross

As I said, it begins at the bottom of page 5 part "C". That explains what Apple is doing about its information that doesn't depend on your constantly agreeing to sharing your location.

Originally Posted by Steven N.

Oddly, there is little indication my 4 points are wrong.

Originally Posted by Dickprinter

Well, it seems the info isn't very accurate in my case. When I ran the tracking program, it shows I was in and around Las Vegas about a half year ago. Too bad the last time I was anywhere near Las Vegas, or more than 300 miles west of NJ for that matter, was before the first iPod was introduced.

Generally speaking it shows where I've been since I got my iP4 back in July '10, but nothing really accurate to the point of incrimination. It's a non issue for me. I have nothing to hide and there's nothing I do that I need to be paranoid about someone finding out.

Call me ignorant, call me stupid, but I don't know what the big deal is. I'd actually rather it be there than not be there. It could even get me, or someone with me, out of trouble of a wrongful accusation at some point in time.

My two pennies.

Originally Posted by magicj

Again, this is just speculation on the part of the folks who wrote that article. It's not a policy statement from Apple. And it's speculation that, on the face of it, does't make a lot of sense. Why would Apple be collecting that information in consolidated.db if consolidated.db is not sent to Apple? They can't build a database from data they never receive.

Originally Posted by djdj

There is SO much bad information in here it isn't even funny.


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Personally, I wouldn't want someone to be able to track my location remotely. Through a jailbreak hack, or even a known security exploit of the phone, it is entirely possible that someone could target an iPhone owner remotely and download the data. Also, for those running computers infected with malware such as spyware, trojan, or bot, it would be very easy for someone to grab this information.