or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Apple issues statement on iOS location controversy, says fix is coming
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple issues statement on iOS location controversy, says fix is coming - Page 4

post #121 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The question is more than that. It's also whether receivers use more than three or four satellites these days, or whether none ever use more than that number.

I'm open to more information, if it comes from a trusted source.

Yes, once position has been established, then it's "the more the merrier" for accuracy, but on a declining scale. Once you've got 6 or 7 sats identified, adding another two or three more doesn't improve the accuracy all that much. Perhaps from an estimated 12' down to 9-10'. But the accuracy of the gps location isn't the big variable. It's the quality of the maps the device uses. All maps used by consumer gps devices are rift with positional errors.

As for how many satellites are generally used for navigation, it's common for 8-11 satellites to be "found" by modern gps navigation devices within a few minutes at most.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #122 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Again from my quick start guide: you will typically have anywhere from 5 -10 satellites.

The article says that eight are visible in the current system. So that must be the max.
post #123 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Thanks, but I also own TomTom. I haven’t opted for in-app traffic data. It’s not something I experience often, for which I’m very happy.

I also use Navigon (and will use Navigon Europe on my trip next month). I also did not opt for the extra fee for traffic "info", for the same reasons, and I've heard it's not quite ready for prime time. Not sure where TomTom and Navigon get their traffic data, but I know many companies are working (and Apple also, as announced) on a better way to gauge traffic. If it were really accurate, gathering speed and location info on thousands of cars, then I would feel it would really be useful for urban commuters, since you can only have so many Eye In The Sky helicopters, or people analyzing cams around the city, to be that confident that if you choose a different route to work/school, etc, you will really save time, gas, and hassle.
post #124 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ok. So according to the Wikipedia article, my numbers are correct. While it prefers four, it can use three for a quick and dirty fix, and it can use more for redundant information. And as eight are visible at one time, it can use up to eight.

The only thong about the article that's not quite correct is the current accuracy. It's much more accurate than 65 feet.

If the number of discovered satellites drops to fewer than 4 you will lose gps fix. At least four are required to maintain positional estimates.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #125 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Any app that you permit to access your location can create its own database (remember, receiving location information is one of the permitted background activities). However, the app would not start tracking after a restart of the iPhone until you start the app for the first time (there are no login items in iOS).

We need to know whether these apps are allowed to keep any of this info. I tend to doubt it, as they have to ask each time. I don't remember any app stating that they were keeping any of the info, except for mapping apps such as my GPS app. And we're expressly telling them to do so each time.
post #126 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think people just assume its three satellites for GPS because of the association with triangulation, even though its multiple triangles that all confer using a network of triangles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Many units include status indicators showing satellites detected and satellites locked..

That is how my Garmin works. I see each satellite as it is detected and slowly locked. As soon as I have three it displays my location on the map. This experience along with the documentation included with the device lead be to believe that only three satellites were required. I did notice that it sometimes would display the elevation incorrectly. I first noticed this when descending a steep route to sea level. Now I understand that it must be reusing my last known elevation in lieu of a fourth satellite.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #127 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

I also use Navigon (and will use Navigon Europe on my trip next month). I also did not opt for the extra fee for traffic "info", for the same reasons, and I've heard it's not quite ready for prime time. Not sure where TomTom and Navigon get their traffic data, but I know many companies are working (and Apple also, as announced) on a better way to gauge traffic. If it were really accurate, gathering speed and location info on thousands of cars, then I would feel it would really be useful for urban commuters, since you can only have so many Eye In The Sky helicopters, or people analyzing cams around the city, to be that confident that if you choose a different route to work/school, etc, that you will really save time/gas/hassle.

Even when you have accurate flow data, if there's a delay of even 5 minutes in delivering that info to your mobile device, the traffic data may no longer be reliable, depending on the cause of the reported traffic issues.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #128 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Yes, once position has been established, then it's "the more the merrier" for accuracy, but on a declining scale. Once you've got 6 or 7 sats identified, adding another two or three more doesn't improve the accuracy all that much. Perhaps from an estimated 12' down to 9-10'. But the accuracy of the gps location isn't the big variable. It's the quality of the maps the device uses. All maps used by consumer gps devices are rift with positional errors.

As for how many satellites are generally used for navigation, it's common for 8-11 satellites to be "found" by modern gps navigation devices within a few minutes at most.

This is what I've been saying, and you've been telling me no to. Though, as only eight satellites are line of horizon at any one time, I wonder how the receiver sees more than that number.
post #129 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If the number of discovered satellites drops to fewer than 4 you will lose gps fix. At least four are required to maintain positional estimates.

I assume that's only if you're moving though. Theres too much evidence that shows that only three will locate you accurately, at least to horizontal position without elevation data. As the article shows, the assumption is that you are on the earth's surface if you are below 11 miles.
post #130 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Straight, to-the-point mea culpa. I say this as someone who was vehemently demanding something like this (despite having taken much abuse from this forum).

All is forgiven!

In all fairness the “abuse," which I recall was simply disagreeing with you, wasn’t against you requesting Apple respond to the issue or making the changes they said they would make on these bugs — which I would qualify more as parochial coding not a bug — but with other aspects of your hypothesis.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #131 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I wish I understood better why GPS needs a WiFi hotspot database to be speedy. GPS originally was for military applications right? Missile tracking and such. Surely such a system does not take, as Apple claims, "several minutes" to return a result?

Aren't those satellites constantly broadcasting - surely you just need to listen for a second or two? Or was the system built with the assumption that the thing you are locating is high and fast moving?

Once a device has acquired its location and it remains in contact with the satellites, location updates are very fast. All military equipment simply will stay connected constantly (except submarines that is).

As far as I remember assisted-GPS provides you with the precise position of the satellites your GPS device is communicating with (and indirectly thus which of the satellites are ones that should be communicated with because they are in best position). The data connection to the satellites is fairly slow (hey it is a pretty old system), the main data sent from the satellites is very precise time signals, as the travel time of the signal depends on the distance between you and each satellite, you can from the travel time and the position of the satellites calculate your position. The satellites also send their position but receiving that takes longer than the pure time signal.
post #132 of 235
For those that really and truly want to understand what your GPS device is telling you and how it works, pay a visit to GPSReview.net

A friendly, active and patient forum with exceptional knowledgeable members and moderators. There's already been too many wrong assumptions posted in this thread to take up more time from the original subject.

To MStone: Watch more closely the next time your gps boots up. You won't have a lock at three satellites. They lock in so quickly it's sometimes hard to catch. If the sat bar is solid it's locked. If hollow it's only found but not yet usable for navigation purposes.

To Mel: The article you're relying on is incorrect on several statements. Wander on over to GPSReview,net one day when you have time.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #133 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

But if they're broadcasting it, how can they stop anyone who wants looking at it?

Encryption, there is an additional encrypted signal that contains more information which increases accuracy. The military has the key to decrypt it, you don't have it.
post #134 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Mbarriault, you read Engadget comments? And still well enough to post here? Commendable!!

I've warned before not to read the comments in Engadget articles. They have the worst name-calling, immature and angry posters on the web IMHO.

Wasn't it Engadget which had switched off their comments for a month, because they were getting so ridiculous?
post #135 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Now that we are told the phone keeps the information for over a year, they are going to turn it off?

Too bad. I got a kick out of seeing where I had been, and like photos, and a journal, helped me remember things I had forgotten.

Sounds like a great app we could install that would maintain a history for us.

I'd think that it would be fairly simple to write an app that people could voluntarily use to do precisely what you're suggesting. The trick would be writing it such that it didn't become a battery drain.

Opportunity!
post #136 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by huntson View Post

Only if what you are admitting is true an not hiding a bigger lie.

Tin foil hat, anyone?
post #137 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We need to know whether these apps are allowed to keep any of this info. I tend to doubt it, as they have to ask each time. I don't remember any app stating that they were keeping any of the info, except for mapping apps such as my GPS app. And we're expressly telling them to do so each time.

Yes, they will explicitly ask you every time you start them up. But Apple cannot tell apps to 'forget' any data, it can only reject apps that store data but do not make that clear to the user.
post #138 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

Agree completely, though I think it's a fairly seamless transition from SNL to the US Senate. (The Senate's funnier of course.) Too bad we never did get a Senator Blutarsky.

Calmer minds have noted that Franken's questions are totally appropriate from the viewpoint of the non geek world (i.e. most people.)
If this episode sheds light on the 24-hour homing device that most of us carry around, then its a good thing. People need to be conscious of the implications of technology... most aren't.

I'd like to see people also be reminded that the FastPass on their dash tracks them even more closely.
post #139 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

There's no conspiracy theory, it's just obvious that Google is lying because their "inadvertent" excuse isn't credible when you consider they had to be seeing all the private data they collected go into their database for years.

There is absolutely no similarity between these issues.

Yup....There is a huge difference.

These are locally stored files (on your computer) which after the bug causing the data to be saved for 1 year, uptil 7 years, would probably have increased in size by a few mb. Its the same data, just that the automatic cache flushing algorithm was wrong.

OTOH, Google was picking up data that was completely irrelevant, and they didn't need in the first place. They specifically had to write code for it, it being something they didn't need, and collecting of which is illegal.
post #140 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

That is how my Garmin works. I see each satellite as it is detected and slowly locked. As soon as I have three it displays my location on the map. This experience along with the documentation included with the device lead be to believe that only three satellites were required. I did notice that it sometimes would display the elevation incorrectly. I first noticed this when descending a steep route to sea level. Now I understand that it must be reusing my last known elevation in lieu of a fourth satellite.

I’m still and will likely always be amazed that we have the technology in our lifetime to get such accurate data.
  • 1903 — First powered flight
  • 1953 — First supersonic flight
  • 1957 — First human-made object orbits Earth
  • 1959 — First human-made object lands on Moon
  • 1961 — First manned mission to space
  • 1962 — First communications satellite to direct relay TV broadcasts
  • 1964 — First geostationary satellite
  • 1969 — First manned mission to moon
  • 1978 — First GPS satellite
  • 1997 — First time Skynet becomes self aware
  • 2001 — First time we make contact


(Apologies to JeffDM for all these FIRST posts)
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #141 of 235
I was amazed that my iPad2 gave accurate altitude data on my plane trip to Vegas last weekend. The Foreflight App for pilots was within 200 feet of accuracy on the trip, which is much better than my old Garmin unit, which was accurate to around 500 feet. Having dedicated GPS apps has made my plane and auto trips enjoyable, without having to worry about cell tower or wifi coverage.
post #142 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Gee, that press release sounds an awfully lot like what sensible people were saying for several days now. Then again, half of it was explained last Summer. The only new info is about the crowd source DB subset.

It's a no-win for Apple. The Apple-haters, trolls, and other whiners will do anything to stamp an "Apple is Evil" moniker on Apple's image.

I give it one more day max before a few of the conspiracy theorists from a few threads ago (They are easy to spot) backtrack on their accusations and try blowing enough smoke in the hopes that no one will call them out for spouting their mouths off before knowing all the facts.

I gave it a month before this media-frenzy was forgotten. I was wrong. It seems it will happen much sooner than that.

The sad part is that if you're a smartphone-owning individual (regardless of OS affiliation) that enjoys all the functionality and experience of its near-instantaneous abilities, you're already being a hypocrite if you cried foul on this subject. In the subject of map coordinates, if on-demand, at the second determination of your exact location had to be done real-time, you'd blow a gasket as to why it was taking so long to load. There's a reason all these databases exist, yet as usual the whiners here fail to look at the long-term reasons and simply decide to be lazy and point fingers at some Big-Brother conspiracy.

The reality is, any individual connected to the grid, Internet, by alien brain-implants can be tracked in many other ways. The guys in the black suits flying in the unmarked back helicopters don't need to hijack your phone to do it. Unless you decide to forgo technology and live the solitary Ted kaczynski hermit lifestyle and live in the woods, get over it.
post #143 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Wasn't it Engadget which had switched off their comments for a month, because they were getting so ridiculous?

They grounded their posters? Next time are they going to pull this internet over if they dont behave?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #144 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

This is what I've been saying, and you've been telling me no to. Though, as only eight satellites are line of horizon at any one time, I wonder how the receiver sees more than that number.

The number visible varies. 8 is a targeted minimum in the system design. It does not represent a maximum. 10 is not uncommon, especially airborne or at high points. I've seen 11 on occasion. 12 is theoretically possible. That is one reason why modern receivers are 12 channel or more. I think this discussion is getting lost in the weeds.
post #145 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If the number of discovered satellites drops to fewer than 4 you will lose gps fix. At least four are required to maintain positional estimates.

So you are saying that this Garmin document is incorrect?

http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/eTrex_OwnersManual.pdf

page 41, last paragraph.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #146 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

So you are saying that this Garmin document is incorrect?

http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/eTrex_OwnersManual.pdf

page 41, last paragraph.

It really depends on the unit. Most consumer units will continue to report position with 3, often indicated on the display as a 2-D fix (rather than 3-D). That is also an indication that it is using a constant elevation assumption to determine location.
post #147 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

So you are saying that this Garmin document is incorrect?

http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/eTrex_OwnersManual.pdf

page 41, last paragraph.

One should always read the entire paragraph. It indicates what has been discussed in this thread. Note the Earth is spherical, not flat.

If you want to be pedantic you can say on satellite can determine your position, albeit within a very generalized location that is far to great to be useful to the user unless they only need to determine which continent or planet they reside.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #148 of 235
Fandroids and general Apple haters are out in force all over the 'net.

They're starting to look like 'birthers.'
post #149 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

So you are saying that this Garmin document is incorrect?

http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/eTrex_OwnersManual.pdf

page 41, last paragraph.

Not at all. You're simply misunderstanding what is being said. Or not said actually. The section you reference doesn't say only three satellites are necessary for a 'fix".

Your eTrex, or nuvi, Magellan or TomTom or whatever won't give you a positional fix until it has four satellites locked. That's just the way it works.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #150 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How long before some crackpot wants a subpoena of Apples crowd sourcing DB to verify its not tracking user or device info?

You mean Al Franken?

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #151 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

Fandroids and general Apple haters are out in force all over the 'net.

They're starting to look like 'birthers.'

Speaking of which, how come Steve Jobs won't produce a birth certificate? I mean, do we even know that he was born? He could've been conjured by a dark mage.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #152 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Not at all. You're simply misunderstanding what is being said. Or not said actually. The section you reference doesn't say only three satellites are necessary for a 'fix".

Your eTrex, or nuvi, Magellan or TomTom or whatever won't give you a positional fix until it has four satellites locked. That's just the way it works.

At least some of the Garmin units will give you a 2-D lock from a cold start. I don't know what assumptions may be made in that case - nominal sea level or elevation lookup.
post #153 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Not at all. You're simply misunderstanding what is being said. Or not said actually. The section you reference doesn't say only three satellites are necessary for a 'fix".

Your eTrex, or nuvi, Magellan or TomTom or whatever won't give you a positional fix until it has four satellites locked. That's just the way it works.

Fine, I've given you three very credible reference documents that contradict your claim, and you have provided a forum with some nice people. I guess I usually have several satellites so I'm good. Thanks for your comments.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #154 of 235
Why does this article, which includes an explicit statement from Apple that says, in partial response to question #3 (Why is my iPhone logging my location?):

"The iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, its maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location, some of which may be located more than one hundred miles away from your iPhone, to help your iPhone rapidly and accurately calculate its location when requested."

... end with this sentence,

"[...] Though the file created by iOS 4 is not sent to Apple or anyone else, it keeps a detailed list of locations a user has been (italics mine) and is saved unencrypted on the phone, as well as in iTunes backups."

... which appears to have been written by somebody who did not read the Apple response?

In fact, according to the response from Apple, it is not a "detailed list of locations a user has been." Too much of the dialog about this issue has been excessively sloppy about the facts.
post #155 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj View Post

Anyway, I've read Apple's statement and it's exactly the information I was looking for. Good work, Apple.

* Turns iPhone back on. *

Im gonna say youve been using it the whole time.

But if you really turned it off I say leave it off and wipe the NAND until they issue a fix. In the mean time you should totally wrap it tinfoil, but in a lead-lined box and bury in the backyard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Speaking of which, how come Steve Jobs won't produce a birth certificate? I mean, do we even know that he was born? He could've been conjured by a dark mage.

Maybe he was created by Xerox PARC. The original gooey as he was actually made from goo.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #156 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im still and will likely always be amazed that we have the technology in our lifetime to get such accurate data.
  • 1903 First powered flight
  • 1953 First supersonic flight
  • 1957 First human-made object orbits Earth
  • 1959 First human-made object lands on Moon
  • 1961 First manned mission to space
  • 1962 First communications satellite to direct relay TV broadcasts
  • 1964 First geostationary satellite
  • 1969 First manned mission to moon
  • 1978 First GPS satellite
  • 1997 First time Skynet becomes self aware
  • 2001 First time we make contact


(Apologies to JeffDM for all these FIRST posts)

Notice how all of these achievements accelerated after Megatron was found and Hoover Dam was built around him

On serious note, I find it amazing how all of these achievements happened in less than 100 years given that man have been around for tens of thousands of years.
post #157 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Tin foil hat, anyone?

More like lead-lined

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #158 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Fine, I've given you three very credible reference documents that contradict your claim, and you have provided a forum with some nice people. I guess I usually have several satellites so I'm good. Thanks for your comments.

Youre on a tech site citing layman definitions to Gatorguys (and mine) technical definitions.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #159 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Youre on a tech site citing layman definitions to Gatorguys (and mine) technical definitions.

I hardly consider two Garmin owners manuals and Wikipedia as layman definitions. They may be wrong and you may be right but surely you can understand why someone might trust their information before some unknown anonymous Internet dudes when there is a contradiction.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #160 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

On serious note, I find it amazing how all of these achievements happened in less than 100 years given that man have been around for tens of thousands of years.

Our ancestors we lazier than us.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPhone
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Apple issues statement on iOS location controversy, says fix is coming