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post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Almost as though the government has purged forces and ideas deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration and produce their nation's rebirth based on commitment to the national community.

Of course, those who died in Tiananmen Square were perhaps not as sanguine as you.

Having a great interest in China and virtually a daily concern, I find that most of my contacts there are quite optimistic about their future. Unlike many in the world's conflicts that continue century after century.

However, you should consider the adage that, "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.," before you example so specifically. I would suggest that such single event so tragically evidenced by the 300 deaths at Tiananmen Square might pale in comparison to some of the atrocities closer to home.

For example, the Massacre at Boa Ogoi. On January 29, 1863, the militia of the U.S. Army's Third California Volunteers, under the command of Colonel Patrick E. Connor, rode down the frozen bluff and massacred some 490+ Northwestern Shoshone Indians. http://www.lemhi-shoshone.com/bear-river-massacre.html

Quote:
How many Native Americans were killed by the US government?

Two studies have been conducted that attempt to number the natives killed by the United States. The first of these was sponsored by the United States government, and while official does not stand up to scrutiny and is therefore discounted (generally); this estimate shows between 1 million to 4 million killed. The second study was not sponsored by the US Government but was done from independent researchers. This study estimated populations and population reductions using later census data. Two figures are given, both low and high, at: between 10 million and 114 million indians as a direct result of US actions. Please note that Nazi Holocaust estimates are between 6 and 11 million; thereby making the Nazi Holocaust the 2nd largest mass murder of a class of people in history.

REF: American Holocaust: D. Stannard (Oxford Press, 1992) - "over 100 million killed" "[Christopher] Columbus personally murdered half a million Natives"
God, Greed and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries: Grenke (New Academia Publishing 2006)
Holocaust: Critical Concepts in Historical Studies: Cesarani, (Routledge 2004)

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_N..._US_government

Lest we forget: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars
post #42 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Having a great interest in China and virtually a daily concern, I find that most of my contacts there are quite optimistic about their future. Unlike many in the world's conflicts that continue century after century.

However, you should consider the adage that, "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.," before you example so specifically. I would suggest that such single event so tragically evidenced by the 300 deaths at Tiananmen Square might pale in comparison to some of the atrocities closer to home.

For example, the Massacre at Boa Ogoi. On January 29, 1863, the militia of the U.S. Army's Third California Volunteers, under the command of Colonel Patrick E. Connor, rode down the frozen bluff and massacred some 490+ Northwestern Shoshone Indians. http://www.lemhi-shoshone.com/bear-river-massacre.html



Lest we forget: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars

Sorry, but your continuing tu quoque arguments remain beside the point. However, seeing that you actually have no valid argument to refute the assertion that the PRC is a fascist state, I think we can assume that you realize the truth of that assertion but either can't or won't admit it. I can understand that it makes you uncomfortable, and, if you're employed by the government (which seems probable given your defense of the brutal murders of peaceful protesters), that it's your job to deny it, but there is no other label that comes close to describing the reality of the current Chinese political system. It's essentially fascist, whether you can admit it or not.
post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Sorry, but your continuing tu quoque arguments remain beside the point. However, seeing that you actually have no valid argument to refute the assertion that the PRC is a fascist state, I think we can assume that you realize the truth of that assertion but either can't or won't admit it. I can understand that it makes you uncomfortable, and, if you're employed by the government (which seems probable given your defense of the brutal murders of peaceful protesters), that it's your job to deny it, but there is no other label that comes close to describing the reality of the current Chinese political system. It's essentially fascist, whether you can admit it or not.

Haven't been here for awhile. See it hasn't changed. Same amount of FUD. Your Facist 'moniker' for China, is a great example of it.
post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Haven't been here for awhile. See it hasn't changed. Same amount of FUD. Your Facist 'moniker' for China, is a great example of it.

Well, tell us what you would call them and defend it. Tip: communist has already been ruled out. Good luck.
post #45 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, tell us what you would call them and defend it. Tip: communist has already been ruled out. Good luck.

By any recognized definition, I can't find any authoritative resource (1-3) that would rule out "Communism" to categorize the government of China.*

Unless you are adding Fascist as an epithet. (4)

A word of warning, labeling a country as fascists because of the 'brutal murders of peaceful protesters' as you so rightly describe, begs the question. "How would you label America after the Kent State Massacre?" (5)

1. What us a fascist? BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | What is a fascist?
2. What is a fascist? http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_fascist*
3. What is Fascism? http://www.couplescompany.com/featur...structure3.htm
4. Fascist (epithet) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(epithet)
5. Kent State Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
post #46 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

By any recognized definition, I can't find any authoritative resource that would rule out "Communism" to categorize the government of China. ...

You must not have looked very hard There is absolutely nothing about the current Chinese economic or political system that justifies calling it communist. It's an authoritarian regime that uses force and repression to maintain power. As I originally stated, the label that most accurately describes it is fascist, and no one, including you, has made any sort of even substantial argument to the contrary. What qualifies as a generally accepted definition of communism was even presented earlier in this thread, and the Chinese economic and political system is nearly 180 opposed to that definition.

Quote:
... A word of warning, labeling a country as fascists because of the 'brutal murders of peaceful protesters' as you so rightly describe, begs the question. "How would you label America after the Kent State Massacre?"...

Well, if i had done that, you might have an argument. But, since I didn't label them fascist based solely, not even primarily, not even significantly, on the Tienanmen Square massacre, but only mentioned it in passing as an egregious example of the regimes brutality, which is entirely representative of their policy for squashing dissent, you don't. Again, this is just another tu quoque argument, which has no bearing on the question of whether the Chinese regime is fascist or not. Even if we were to grant your implication that the U.S. is a fascist state, based on the events you reference, that wouldn't make China any less fascist as a result. And, of course, you make the mistake of focusing on a single incident as defining the nature of state.

Not that it is at all relevant to the issue under discussion, but no one is arguing here that the U.S. is a perfect nation. We've violated human rights more times than it's comfortable for most of our citizens to admit. And sure you can identify plenty of ugly cases in the U.S. where the government used force and repression to put down dissent. (For instance, the use of government force against union organizers in the early part of the 20th century, or the actions of the government during the "McCarthy Era".) But, what you also find is a president being forced from office for breaking the law, newspapers free to publish stories critical of the government and even divulging "state secrets", and the daily exercise of fundamental rights and liberties that are simply unheard of in China today.

So, yes, you can certainly find some ugly acts that have been committed in the U.S. to use to try to equate it with China. (Although, arguing that the U.S. is fascist because it's committed the same sorts of acts that China has sort of completely undermines your argument that China isn't fascist.) What you can't find are people, newspapers, and organizations in China exercising freedoms that Americans take for granted. China is, to reiterate, a brutal authoritarian state that stifles all dissent, jails indefinitely and executes dissidents as a matter of official policy, controls as completely as possible all access to information, and so on, and so on.

While you may have your reasons for not wanting to admit that the Chinese regime most resembles fascism in practice, and bears no resemblance at all to any definition of communism (sorry, the ruling party calling themselves communist doesn't make it so) it's pretty clear to anyone who thinks about it rationally for even a few minutes what the true nature of the current Chinese regime is. And the label that best describes that is fascist.
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