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Bin Laden is dead - Page 5

post #161 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Obama got his photo-op at Ground Zero today.

Consider this Obama's "Mission Accomplished" Moment.

We're still in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya.

Stop bitching already! You can thank Bush Jr the idiot who got us into these wars and never even got OBL since 9-11.
post #162 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Hmm. Can you clarify something for me, then?

I asked how you felt about people who have lost their lives in the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya and you said:



So, the loss of innocent lives in the wars we are fighting is "regrettable", but not on the same level as the loss of life on 9/11?

The loss of innocent life...meaning civilians is regrettable. They are not the intended targets. The loss of life due to a terrorist attack is far worse.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #163 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

The loss of innocent life...meaning civilians is regrettable. They are not the intended targets. The loss of life due to a terrorist attack is far worse.

I don't think there's much of a difference to those who have been killed or their loved ones who are left to mourn them.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #164 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Stop bitching already! You can thank Bush Jr the idiot who got us into these wars and never even got OBL since 9-11.

Thank goodness Obama has gotten us out of Bush's wars and not started any others.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #165 of 292
I think it's gotten to the point that The State no longer needs a guy like OBL to be their Emmanuel Goldstein.

They can just utter the word "terrorism" and people are willing to bend over and let them do whatever they want.

The important result of this "raid" is not the death of OBL - it is the vast stores of information the government claims they found at OBL's compound.

They will be raising new "terror alerts" for years claiming it resulted from this find.

Another thing I've been thinking about: if so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture) were instrumental in finding OBL...why would they execute him in front of his family instead of capturing him alive and using these "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture) on him to obtain even more information to "fight terrorism"?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #166 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I think it's gotten to the point that The State no longer needs a guy like OBL to be their Emmanuel Goldstein.

They can just utter the word "terrorism" and people are willing to bend over and let them do whatever they want.

The important result of this "raid" is not the death of OBL - it is the vast stores of information the government claims they found at OBL's compound.

They will be raising new "terror alerts" for years claiming it resulted from this find.

Another thing I've been thinking about: if so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture) were instrumental in finding OBL...why would they execute him in front of his family instead of capturing him alive and using these "enhanced interrogation techniques" (torture) on him to obtain even more information to "fight terrorism"?

I wouldn't be surprised if they executed him, but that's not the official story. How can you be so sure they "executed" him?
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #167 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I wouldn't be surprised if they executed him, but that's not the official story. How can you be so sure they "executed" him?

Most accounts agree he was unarmed.

If he was unarmed, what kind of resistance could he have offered that would have required 2 bullets in his head?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #168 of 292

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #169 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Most accounts agree he was unarmed.

If he was unarmed, what kind of resistance could he have offered that would have required 2 bullets in his head?

He didn't put his hands up. \

The US in general seems to approaching a point where absolute and immediate obedience and compliance to authorities is expected. This is becoming increasingly obvious in domestic law enforcement and "security" (e.g., TSA, etc.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #170 of 292
What I'm really angry about is that Seal Team 6 didn't have a search warrant before they entered the alleged Bin Laden compound.
post #171 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Most accounts agree he was unarmed.

If he was unarmed, what kind of resistance could he have offered that would have required 2 bullets in his head?

They may have believed he was trying to get a gun, run for it, whatever. All of those things could have posed real security risks for Seal 6 and even meant he might have got away somehow. Supposing the place was booby trapped and Osama just had to press a button and for the whole building to blow up.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #172 of 292
Great...now we're coming up with all kinds of speculative reasons to justify what was done.

Well...good...the sheeple are in line.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #173 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Thank goodness Obama has gotten us out of Bush's wars and not started any others.

Yea good thing Obama has kept us out of wars in the middle east over oil engaging known sponsors of terrorism risking blowback and retaliation.

[cough]Libya[/cough]
post #174 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Great...now we're coming up with all kinds of speculative reasons to justify what was done.

Well...good...the sheeple are in line.

I really try to keep an open mind, but for Gods sake, you weren't there!
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #175 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I really try to keep an open mind, but for Gods sake, you weren't there!

No I wasn't. And I have no idea whether I have any reason to trust the people who were there (or watching on live video feeds) and what they're claiming happened, why and to whom.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #176 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They may have believed he was trying to get a gun, run for it, whatever. All of those things could have posed real security risks for Seal 6 and even meant he might have got away somehow. Supposing the place was booby trapped and Osama just had to press a button and for the whole building to blow up.

He may have summoned pink unicorns to appear and impale the American troops with their horns.

Why are we speculating about this?

One account said there was a "firefight".

Okay, so if there was a firefight, why do we not hear of any American troops being killed or wounded?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #177 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No I wasn't. And I have no idea whether I have any reason to trust the people who were there (or watching on live video feeds) and what they're claiming happened, why and to whom.

Well the details have been scant and they've changed, but the official version seems to tally up with photos, his wives account etc. By all means question it, but I don't see how anyone as yet can call it an "execution".
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #178 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Well the details have been scant and they've changed, but the official version seems to tally up with photos, his wives account etc. By all means question it, but I don't see how anyone as yet can call it an "execution".

OK.

I love how the left questioned almost everything when Bush was president...but now...well...sure we should question...buuuut...

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #179 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

He may have summoned pink unicorns to appear and impale the American troops with their horns.

Why are we speculating about this?

One account said there was a "firefight".

Okay, so if there was a firefight, why do we not hear of any American troops being killed or wounded?

I really don't think it's appropriate to use humour like that when your discussing what Seal 6 did and the dangers they exposed themselves to.


I don't have all the info on this so I suggest you use Google or Sammi for more info.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #180 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Well the details have been scant and they've changed, but the official version seems to tally up with photos, his wives account etc. By all means question it, but I don't see how anyone as yet can call it an "execution".

I also call it an execution when police kill unarmed citizens here in the states.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #181 of 292
Man you people are bunch of douchebags. This wasn't a drug raid. They weren't executing a warrant.

[douchebag]Bin Laden was unarmed and posed no threat to highly trained seal team. He may or may not been going for a weapon but without independent confirmation how are we to know? We only know what the government media complex wants us to know. His kids tell a different story. blah fucking blah I know best boo fucking hoo for human rights. We make terrorists faster than we kill them.[/douchebag]





Seal Team 6 gets a free beer on me.
post #182 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Man you people are bunch of douchebags.

Nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Seal Team 6 gets a free beer on me.

And now everyone's referring to "Seal Team 6" like they are they're best buddies. Priceless.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #183 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Nice.




And now everyone's referring to "Seal Team 6" like they are they're best buddies. Priceless.

I liked them before they killed Bin Laden.
post #184 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I liked them before they killed Bin Laden.

Oh yeah? You knew them? Hung out with them? Or have you just read the jingoistic press releases and propaganda of a government that loves its citizens idolizing and adoring its military and killing specialists?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #185 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I really don't think it's appropriate to use humour like that when your discussing what Seal 6 did and the dangers they exposed themselves to.


I don't have all the info on this so I suggest you use Google or Sammi for more info.

It wasn't an attempt at humor.

The point is we are speculating about this because our government has released about 5 different versions of the events surrounding OBL's death.

I think this is intentional.

And it really makes me wonder what The State is doing now that required such a big distraction.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #186 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh yeah? You knew them? Hung out with them? Or have you just read the jingoistic press releases and propaganda of a government that loves its citizens idolizing and adoring its military and killing specialists?

Indeed. The nationalistic propaganda that is being spewed about our "war on terror" is not much different in purpose than these:





Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #187 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh yeah? You knew them? Hung out with them? Or have you just read the jingoistic press releases and propaganda of a government that loves its citizens idolizing and adoring its military and killing specialists?

USA! USA! USA! Hooo Rah! (is that what the seals say, IDK)

You're twisted in knots aren't ya.


USA! USA! USA!
post #188 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

You're twisted in knots aren't ya.

Not at all. Is this what you assume about people that disagree with you?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #189 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It wasn't an attempt at humor.

The point is we are speculating about this because our government has released about 5 different versions of the events surrounding OBL's death.

I think this is intentional.

And it really makes me wonder what The State is doing now that required such a big distraction.

I don't know whether this was intentional, but it certainly appeared very unprofessional, perhaps so much that it must have been deliberate. I can't think why though, because it makes Obamas administration look bad in the voters eyes and surely they didn't want that.

I really haven't followed it all closely enough to know what's going on. Just some quick readings on The Guardian etc and a tiny bit of tv.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #190 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Not at all. Is this what you assume about people that disagree with you?

You're not upset with the us apes and our jingoistic ranting? Look at our dumb bloodlust!
post #191 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Look at our dumb bloodlust!

Yep. \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #192 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I don't think there's much of a difference to those who have been killed or their loved ones who are left to mourn them.

Obviously. No one is arguing that. I'm saying I'm far more concerned about American casualties in a terrorist attack than I am about those who lose their lives accidentally in a legitimate military operation. It's still loss of life, but it's not the same. It's like comparing a death from a traffic accident to that of a murder. Families are devastated either way, but there are obvious differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Thank goodness Obama has gotten us out of Bush's wars and not started any others.

Yes, agreed. And how interesting that the anti-war movement has totally fallen apart. That's because it was crap to begin with. Much of it was stirred up by Bush's political opposition. Much of it was comprised of people that have talked themselves into excusing Obama's actions while lambasting Bush's actions. It's the epitome of a double standard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

What I'm really angry about is that Seal Team 6 didn't have a search warrant before they entered the alleged Bin Laden compound.

See sammi. You guys can wallow together.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #193 of 292
Obama, er, sorry I really mean Osama, LIVES TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY! (at least according to some)-

"The most obvious effect of this statement from al-Qaida is to kill off some if not all of the rapidly multiplying conspiracy theories claiming Bin Laden is not dead. A poll published in Pakistan shows that 66% of people believe the man killed was not Osama bin Laden. Now, the only way to maintain that belief is to dismiss the al-Qaida statement as false."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ysis-statement
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #194 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Obama, er, sorry I really mean Osama, LIVES TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY! (at least according to some)-

"The most obvious effect of this statement from al-Qaida is to kill off some if not all of the rapidly multiplying conspiracy theories claiming Bin Laden is not dead. A poll published in Pakistan shows that 66% of people believe the man killed was not Osama bin Laden. Now, the only way to maintain that belief is to dismiss the al-Qaida statement as false."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ysis-statement

A pity the conclusive evidence of his death was "buried at sea", isn't it?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #195 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

A pity the conclusive evidence of his death was "buried at sea", isn't it?

I don't know, ask his wives and kid.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #196 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I don't know, ask his wives and kid.

Yes, let's take them at their word. Let's take the government at its word.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #197 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Yes, let's take them at their word. Let's take the government at its word.

For the sake of a few conspiracy theorists, more dead soldiers? No thanks.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #198 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


Whether or not he is a citizen is irrelevant. The point is he should not enjoy the benefits a trial might afford him. It's simply not an appropriate way of dealing with people like this.

gibber... gibber...

>snip<

...gibber ...gibber

yak-yak

There you go again. A trial. I suppose I should not be surprised. As I said, you're a truther who literally believes NOTHING the government says. Don't get me wrong...I think there is always a good possibility we are not being told the truth. I think almost anything is possible in that regard. But somehow you take it to a whole other level.

One can condense 2 main points from SDW's post (amongst others)

(1) He does not believe in due process of law, of which a fair trial is a cornerstone. No matter who one is, or where one is from, the purpose of a trial is to establish guilt or innocence. Then you mete out the punishment, in response to the outcome of that trial.

What has been done with OBL is to *pronounce* him guilty, not under the microscope of a public trial, but using an endless, hysterical, media campaign. It sort of works "in a way", because endless media repetition will establish a very powerful psychological impression of guilt, regardless of the reality, or otherwise, of guilt.

So, when someone (such as OBL) has been vilified so intensely, for so long, and the population has been so thoroughly convinced of his guilt, just on the quantity of material put forth on the media and official sources, regardless of quality, anyone who refers to "first principles" re. the actuality of guilt or innocence, is shouted down.

And when the alleged crime is as heinous as what the accused is assumed guilty of, then the volume of the "kill him, (crucify him?), regardless"... becomes deafening .... and the actuality of guilt or innocence becomes irrelevant, an afterthought, a distraction, in other words, something that shouldn't be questioned.

Yes. Something that shouldn't be questioned. That is correct: you must not ask questions, or cast doubt. Doubt is heresy, and heresy in itself is a terrible sin. Because, we all know that asking questions is also unpatriotic, because, as SDW knows only to well, our elected leaders always tell the truth about everything, and so does the corporate media.

Yes, they do. Don't they, SDW.

(2) He is bothered that America, the "sole superpower" is not leading enough in the world.

First off, the US is not the world's sole superpower. China is right up there, both economically and militarily. China bankrolled the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and the US is in vast debt to China. What will happen when (a) China calls in that debt, and (b) the dollar ceases to become the world's reserve currency, a uniquely privileged position that has protected the US from the raging inflation and resulting currency devaluation that would have beset any other nation in such equivalent, astronomical debt? Said superpower becomes something different, ie not very super at all. Yes, SDW, there are penalties for trying to build empires... and I am sure you realize who, in the end, will be paying for it.

Although we are not the world's sole superpower, we do like to project that power militarily. How many wars have we started, or gotten involved in, which had had nothing to do with protecting our Constitution, and our borders from invasion, since WWII? The list is endless. How many dictators have we emboldened, supported, funded or installed? the list is endless. How many elected democracies have we toppled in favor of some "useful thug"? Quite a lot. How many nations' financial systems have collapsed as a result of the forceful imposition of the US led neoliberal "Friedmanite" monetary scam, causing abject poverty and misery for billions, while a handful of banking élites become fabulously wealthy as a result of their criminal conduct? Quite "a lot". How many terrorist scum have we protected, and terrorist groups have we supported, who do *our* dirty work in the world? That list is truly endless.

This is the stuff that we do in the world that the likes of SDW support, and the media crow about.

The US, however, does do vast amount of humanitarian, charitable work in the world. We still lead the world in inventiveness. We do all manner of great things which are largely unrecognized or talked about in the media... perhaps this is because it doesn't involve blowing things up, killing people, amassing personal fortunes or worshipping of vapid celebrities. And we all know what sells media copy... war, death, destruction (natural and manmade), terror and fame.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #199 of 292
^ When are you two getting married?
post #200 of 292
So far, there have been numerous versions of what happened at that compound. Logic dictates that only one version could be true. Logic also dictates that lies have been told. Logic also implies that it is also possible that *every* version that has emanated from the Obama White House could have been false. Why the multiplicity of different stories, when it comes down to something as simple as a raid on a house which kills one of the occupants, a person who was unarmed and could not return fire? What is so damned complicated about that, when it comes down to getting the facts and story consistent? The police conduct house raids all over the country, often where there are armed people inside... and violence results... but how often do these everyday cases see such a wild divergence of how events happened?

Logic dictates that the Obama administration has lied about this event, at least once. And when we know that people have lied, then *EVERYTHING* that issues from their lying mouths MUST be treated with skepticism, and the contempt it deserves. What happens in court when a witness is discovered to have lied? The judge kicks his "testimony" into the "swing-top filing cabinet", where it belongs.

Doesn't anyone get it yet?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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