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Bin Laden is dead - Page 3

post #81 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes. And? There are indeed a lot of people who are ill-informed and even smugly so on a number of things. What can be done about this? What are you doing about this? What does wondering about a certain, specfic group's response to this particular event do to solve the problem you've highlighted?

Your reputation for not answering questions by asking questions is proving, yet again, richly deserved.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #82 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Your reputation for not answering questions by asking questions is proving, yet again, richly deserved.

And your reputation for evading the point is richly deserved. But...I don't have an answer for how the Rs and Tea Party are responding to this. I don't really follow either that closely. Someone else can answer for you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #83 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And your reputation for evading the point is richly deserved. But...I don't have an answer for how the Rs and Tea Party are responding to this. I don't really follow either that closely. Someone else can answer for you.

He can use Google too! I found this with 30 seconds of searching:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/1404...dent-obama.htm
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #84 of 292
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #85 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

He can use Google too! I found this with 30 seconds of searching:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/1404...dent-obama.htm

Lets hope they now drop the Birther thing, as the long form birth certificate just got them even more worked up. It doesn't even make them look more American.

Maybe if we're really lucky they'll ditch the muslim thing too.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #86 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io3QvZBz6QM

Off Topic much?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #87 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Off Topic much?

Why's it off topic?
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #88 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Bin Laden's body was (hopefully) handled according to his religious beliefs, which I believe call for burial within 24 hours.

That is showing necessary respect to his religion, which, remember, the US is not at war with.

Wrong, it was a humiliating act to bury him at sea and it was against islamic tradition. Only if the muslim died at sea and can't reach land before decay it is religiously allowed to bury him at sea, otherwise burial at land is the rule.

As to the argument that no country would have taken his body in, I highly doubt that.

It was a despicable act to just kill him, all this preparation of finding him after 10 years and they just shoot him instead of capturing him and bring him before court?
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #89 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Why's it off topic?

Better question, how is it on topic?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #90 of 292
I just heard a BBC talking head that the information which lead to the death of Bin Laden may well have come from torturing at Guantanamo, which will mean people will have to look more closely at tortures justifiability. Not good.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #91 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Better question, how is it on topic?

MJ, is that you???!

This could be viewed as Obama's 3am call, that hillary ran during the campaigning.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #92 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Anyone know how some Repubs and the Tea Party are taking this news, given who's POTUS?

I've had the theme from Team American World Police going through my head today. "America, FUCK YEA!"
post #93 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

MJ, is that you???!

This could be viewed as Obama's 3am call, that hillary ran during the campaigning.

Right, because neither McCain nor Palin could say, "take him out" at 3AM... I see.

From the Phone call I heard, he would have been dead for sure.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #94 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

MJ, is that you???!

This could be viewed as Obama's 3am call, that hillary ran during the campaigning.

It was also Hillary that started the whole Brither thing.
post #95 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I didn't forget it at all. I said quite clearly and still uniformly note that if you support the right of government to declare what people can and cannot do with their property via zoning and other types of land use nad control laws, then you've got to accept the tyranny of that majority in all matters, not just matters where you want to show your religions tolerance with a feel good intention pin.

So as I said then, and as I say now, get back to me when these same ignorant and loud Americans allow a Walmart to be built.

Clearly, by your reasoning, they aren't allowing Walmart to be built because they think Walmart conspired to make 9/11 happen.




Oh Jimmac, you have me wiping away tears. Didn't you see the smilies? Suggesting that Obama did this to "wag the dog" and improve his poll numbers was a joke. I said it was ludicrous to suggest it. Then you go and prove the point by reciting the same tired and completely unproven claims about Bush that you went on and on about for eight years. By not getting the joke, you become the joke. A bit sad really....



When you provide a justification for an action, then you support the action. You declared that the exact same actions, when undertaken with someone with a Democratic label for party didn't yield the same results. Folks of your nature went a lot further than just "not supporting" Bush. He was declared to be a warmonger, a war criminal, a big oil man who was allowing his cronies to bleed the U.S. dry via $5 gas.

Now see, I never claimed Bush was a dirty oil man bleeding us dry nor a war criminal nor warmonger. Thus I need not assign those labels to Obama.

I'd love to see posts like say, THIS ONE. Can we look forward to you declaring that Obama has violated the Geneva convention and ought to be put on trial for treason in the U.S. and then turned over to international courts as a war criminal?

I look forward to future posts like THIS ONE. I'll be happy to see that the debt the president lied about and that future generations must pay down is an impeachable offense as is lying to the American Public, keeping acts like the Patriot Act or FISA in effect, etc.

You were willing to throw that half claim out that Obama wasn't even creating future terrorists while undertaking three wars in three different Islamic countries. "It's okay, because his drones and troops didn't commit any atrocities. The drones didn't kill any civilians."

Ummm...... yes they did. Everything is the same. I called war a dirty business then and now. The way you stop getting your hands dirty is to stop playing the game. Folks of your ilk are still claiming they can just play the game better and smarter than "retarded monkeys" like Bush.



You've got an amen from me on that!



I did. You're lying.



You make some good points Sammi, but the main point which the lefties on here have completely flipped their brains off about is that they declared that when encountering combatants such as this was that they should be treated as criminals and given a trial. Ever poster on these forums that declared Gitmo should be closed, and that we should treat this as a criminal matter and not a war matter should be hanging their heads in shame because President Obama didn't want him grabbed and questioned in a nice safe and humane manner for whatever information he cared to voluntarily give up while being accorded his full array of rights. Instead he ordered a bullet be put through his brain.

The hypocrisy with all of this though is Bush called it what it is, a war on terror. Even if you don't agree with all the particulars, it is a war. Obama and many on here are the people who declare those conducting the war are blood thirsty warmongers. Then they go and start another one or two of them, explode the deficit and order a bullet through their brain while heading out for another round of golf.

The hypocrisy has to be making them sick.

Quote:
Oh Jimmac, you have me wiping away tears. Didn't you see the smilies? Suggesting that Obama did this to "wag the dog" and improve his poll numbers was a joke. I said it was ludicrous to suggest it. Then you go and prove the point by reciting the same tired and completely unproven claims about Bush that you went on and on about for eight years. By not getting the joke, you become the joke. A bit sad really....

Yeah, sure, you betcha.

Quote:
you become the joke

Nice Ad- Hom. Who's in clueless town now?

Quote:
completely unproven claims about Bush that you went on and on about for eight years

Tell me. What unproven claims are those?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #96 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Your reputation for not answering questions by asking questions is proving, yet again, richly deserved.

Not addressing the various strawmen and personal attacks brought up is a sign of being logical, not of being obtuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Lets hope they now drop the Birther thing, as the long form birth certificate just got them even more worked up. It doesn't even make them look more American.

Maybe if we're really lucky they'll ditch the muslim thing too.

How can they stop it when they didn't start it? Shouldn't the people who started it declare they've stopped and ask others to stop as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Wrong, it was a humiliating act to bury him at sea and it was against islamic tradition. Only if the muslim died at sea and can't reach land before decay it is religiously allowed to bury him at sea, otherwise burial at land is the rule.

As to the argument that no country would have taken his body in, I highly doubt that.

It was a despicable act to just kill him, all this preparation of finding him after 10 years and they just shoot him instead of capturing him and bring him before court?

He agree with him or not, Nightcrawler is actually being consistant and not just politically expedient with his posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Right, because neither McCain nor Palin could say, "take him out" at 3AM... I see.

From the Phone call I heard, he would have been dead for sure.

Actually they couldn't stop going on Oprah and playing golf long enough to say take him out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

It was also Hillary that started the whole Brither thing.

There you go resorting to those fact things that ignore the caricatured narrative thing.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #97 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Man MJ, now you've totally ruined my next post which was noting that burial rituals in Islam say nothing about tossing people into the ocean within 24 hours.



I read several other sources and basically the 24 hour rule might honor the timeline but while basically dishonoring every other custom or rite so it seems like a ridiculous excuse to not have a body.

They do say 24 hours and what country would have taken him? Also would you like to leave a body around to ripped off and turned into a shrine for terrorists?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #98 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Not addressing the various strawmen and personal attacks brought up is a sign of being logical, not of being obtuse.



How can they stop it when they didn't start it? Shouldn't the people who started it declare they've stopped and ask others to stop as well?



He agree with him or not, Nightcrawler is actually being consistant and not just politically expedient with his posting.



Actually they couldn't stop going on Oprah and playing golf long enough to say take him out.



There you go resorting to those fact things that ignore the caricatured narrative thing.

Quote:
personal attacks

You should know about this since you made one on me earlier in this thread.

Allow me to quote it :
Quote:
By not getting the joke, you become the joke
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #99 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I posted the quotes. You spent years declaring that Bush should be put on trial for warcrimes, was a warmonger, and should be held for trial for treason, impeached, warcrimes, etc.

Good, now show where I said Obama shouldn't be held to the same standards and I'll give you a lollipop. Or else admit you were wrong.

Quote:
I'll be happy to see the post where you demanded or even eluded to this for Obama. Instead you make justifications and simply "disagree" with him. It is pure hypocrisy.

Nice moving the gaol posts LOL. You made the claim that I said what Obama was doing was ok. That was a lie. Now you're changing your tune to say that my criticism of Obama wasn't brash enough. Stop it already. You really look stupid. You even continue with the lies. Show me where I made a single justification as you claim in this very post. Or admit that was a lie, too. Really, man. Grow up and start paying attention. And stop projecting your partisanship onto others.

Let's turn this around now. When bush went to war and when bush continued the war, you were right there in the sidelines cheering for him. Where's your support for Obama 'doing the same thing', as you say?

Quote:
Hey, we finally have it down here for the first time. Nice resigned tone there Tonton. I guess your anger still needs to see an (R) to truly get the dander up.

No, my anger needs someone who starts a multibillion dollar war.
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Perhaps you should take off your blinders and realize it isn't a conservative thing then if it is what the liberals do as well.

Perhaps you should take your blinders off and admit that Obama is not a Liberal.
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Again there was a reason they had to call it neocon. It was a new type of conservatism different from the norm which practices isolationism and avoidance of being a cop for the world.

And you were with them 100%.
Quote:
They didn't need a neoliberal label for it because liberals and have been using armies to undertake the will of the people for hundreds of years now.

Yeah, I guess it was the 'conservatives' who opposed the Vietnam War. LMFAO.
And Lincoln was a Republican. I know. Things change. It's been obvious for the last 50 years that Liberals (not necessarily Democrats) are anti-war. That's opposed to you, supporting the Republicans no matter what label they give themselves, neo-con, tea party, whatever. Dude, that's the definition of partisan!
Quote:
I know this is hard to understand because you've got that large wall keeping all the Chinese peasants out while you enjoy your high rise and universal health care, but more people died under Mao than ever died under Bush. Even if it is NEW to conservatism, it is old to liberalism.

LMFAO!!! You're claiming Mao was a Liberal!!! Seriously, dude. You need help. That's all I'm saying.
Quote:
Once you take off your blinders you can see that and start calling the same actions what they happen to be rather than seeing them as intentions. If you're really lucky no one will even note you're a racist for wanting to send Obama to jail or put him on trial.

Give it up. Blinders are what make people make statements like these.
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I only say that because you've not claimed Obama is deliberately lying about what happened with Osama Bin Laden

Yes, actually, I have.
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, yet you declare those who would question his birth place to be racist.

Wrong again. I said it was 100% politically motivated, and helped along by racist undertones. That's a vastly different statement.
Quote:
Don't you know if you question government sources about their facts and specifically Obama about his facts then that makes you a racist? You're a proud member of the club now.

Say it loud and proud, you're a racist, you're a racist!

Give it up. We know who's racist.
post #100 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

They do say 24 hours and what country would have taken him? Also would you like to leave a body around to ripped off and turned into a shrine for terrorists?

I could care less if someone desecrates his grave. I could care less if terrorists want to pray to his bones. The point is don't hide the proof and claim religious beliefs when they aren't being followed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Good, now show where I said Obama shouldn't be held to the same standards and I'll give you a lollipop. Or else admit you were wrong.

Until you were backed into a corner, you didn't hold Obama to the same standards. In actions and energy you still haven't. You've sort of resigned yourself to trying to treat him equally by acknowledging wrong in the most tepid language possible.

Quote:
Nice moving the gaol posts LOL. You made the claim that I said what Obama was doing was ok. That was a lie. Now you're changing your tune to say that my criticism of Obama wasn't brash enough.

You look ridiculous. You're now claiming actions that you didn't take until you got boxed into a corner here Find the post before today where you stated what you did today. No one had to prompt you for Bush. No one had to hold a mirror up of your past actions and have you cede to demands to apply them to Obama.

Quote:
Stop it already. You really look stupid. You even continue with the lies. Show me where I made a single justification as you claim in this very post. Or admit that was a lie, too. Really, man. Grow up and start paying attention. And stop projecting your partisanship onto others.

The justification was made and easily understood. You're trying to play games by saying that you threw up weak rationalizations for the claims being made about Bush but that it applied to Obama too except you still haven't said that have you.

Please find for me your post where you said Obama is killing civilians and thus creating new terrorists. You said it about Bush. You explained it fully. Apply it to Obama in a clear concise statement. Don't make me have to do it for you, then have you sort of cede some sort of weak agreement with it. Omission is endorsement in this case. You criticized one, but not the other.

Quote:
Let's turn this around now. When bush went to war and when bush continued the war, you were right there in the sidelines cheering for him. Where's your support for Obama 'doing the same thing', as you say?

I challenge you to go back and find where I ever cheered the war. I've been pretty clear. You don't play politics with it and you don't half ass it. You don't vote for it then hold up armor for soldiers screaming something about Bush lied. If you think you were lied to you vote to bring them home, not declare you'll run a better war.

That might be hard for a partisan like yourself to understand. You can't be "sort of" Pax Americana. While you are engaged in the policy, you have to fund it. You can't screw with people's lives by playing both sides of it for political purposes. You can't say get us the hell out of Iraq but put us in Darfur. You can't say get us the hell out of Iraq but get us into Afghanistan and Libya.

So while we are engaged in it, the troops and the hardware they need get my full support. We can't use their bullets, their armor and their paychecks to score political points. That is what you have seen me defend over the years but I've been very consistent that we need to change and end Pax Americana. Most of the posts back then if you check them actually had Groverat going to head with everyone with him supporting the war so get your memory checked.

Quote:
No, my anger needs someone who starts a multibillion dollar war.
Perhaps you should take your blinders off and admit that Obama is not a Liberal.
And you were with them 100%.


Who is them? By the way, you've taken to repeating yourself.
I'm just going to find my old explanations to feel better about your dementia.
Quote:
Yeah, I guess it was the 'conservatives' who opposed the Vietnam War. LMFAO.
And Lincoln was a Republican. I know. Things change. It's been obvious for the last 50 years that Liberals (not necessarily Democrats) are anti-war. That's opposed to you, supporting the Republicans no matter what label they give themselves, neo-con, tea party, whatever. Dude, that's the definition of partisan!

Nixon was elected by promising to bring the troops home from Vietnam. You've got some serious memory issues.

Really the simple little platitudes you repeat are so sad. Here's a quote from that same earlier post rather than move my fingers again for you.

First on the lying bit. Gore or Obama would have had the same intelligence gathered from the same agencies as Bush did. It is fun to believe they would have acted differently but Obama has kept Gates and has appointed many Democrats who voted for the war or publicly supported it via statements to his cabinet. Rahm, stated he would have voted for it. Clinton, Daschle, and Biden did vote for it. In other words, supporting war including the Iraq war still gets you a slot in the cabinet.

Obama has not declared that preemptive war is wrong. Quite the opposite, he has declared that it is acceptable and that he will just do it better than Bush. Thus he wouldn't have us in Iraq but still would have attacked and supports pouring more troops and money into Afghanistan. He has not declared he will stop us from being the cop of the world via Pax Americana, rather again, the opposite. His speech in Germany declared that we should double down on this policy. The claim is that American has not properly been a force for good in the world and has acted in a questionable way with regard to applying force. The real question shouldn't be are we applying force properly, but rather why should we be wandering the globe applying force at all.

Obama claims he will apply that force properly and commits to applying it more than ever before. In other words he will do preemptive war right, but not get us out of the war and global cop business.

So Obama will be a "change" in this regard, but not really because he simply declares we will be a better cop and use his judgment for a preemptive war done right. We should be out of the cop and war business in my view.

Quote:
LMFAO!!! You're claiming Mao was a Liberal!!! Seriously, dude. You need help. That's all I'm saying.
Give it up. Blinders are what make people make statements like these.
Yes, actually, I have.Wrong again. I said it was 100% politically motivated, and helped along by racist undertones. That's a vastly different statement.

Give it up. We know who's racist.

Give it up, I'm laughing. Give it up, I'm laughing. "We all know" and I'm laughing again.

That is quite the logical argument tonton.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #101 of 292
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Wrong, it was a humiliating act to bury him at sea and it was against islamic tradition. Only if the muslim died at sea and can't reach land before decay it is religiously allowed to bury him at sea, otherwise burial at land is the rule.

As to the argument that no country would have taken his body in, I highly doubt that.

It was a despicable act to just kill him, all this preparation of finding him after 10 years and they just shoot him instead of capturing him and bring him before court?

I did say I hoped ...

The explanation http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/as...ex.html?hpt=C1

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #102 of 292
Nothing has changed, apart from one boogeyman now *officially* put out of acton.

Osama bin Laden's coming replacement, whoever that may be, will start getting intense media coverage in the near future.... with various Obama administration/Pentagon/intel talking heads promoting the hell out of some previously little known or unknown figure: " 'xxxxx xxxxxx' is considered extremely dangerous and is likely to try to attack US targets, not just abroad but also at home within the near future.

The entrenched hatred and bile in DC for muslims of all denominations, whether they be the 0.01% who may be militant, and the 99.99% who are normal, law abiding people like you the reader, will continue unabated.

I've been to a fair few DC lunch and other events, for interviewing purposes, and if/when the conversation gets around to that topic (when the camera's not rolling of course), you wouldn't believe your ears. That's putting it mildly... honestly.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #103 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I could care less if someone desecrates his grave. I could care less if terrorists want to pray to his bones. The point is don't hide the proof and claim religious beliefs when they aren't being followed.



Until you were backed into a corner, you didn't hold Obama to the same standards. In actions and energy you still haven't. You've sort of resigned yourself to trying to treat him equally by acknowledging wrong in the most tepid language possible.



You look ridiculous. You're now claiming actions that you didn't take until you got boxed into a corner here Find the post before today where you stated what you did today. No one had to prompt you for Bush. No one had to hold a mirror up of your past actions and have you cede to demands to apply them to Obama.



The justification was made and easily understood. You're trying to play games by saying that you threw up weak rationalizations for the claims being made about Bush but that it applied to Obama too except you still haven't said that have you.

Please find for me your post where you said Obama is killing civilians and thus creating new terrorists. You said it about Bush. You explained it fully. Apply it to Obama in a clear concise statement. Don't make me have to do it for you, then have you sort of cede some sort of weak agreement with it. Omission is endorsement in this case. You criticized one, but not the other.



I challenge you to go back and find where I ever cheered the war. I've been pretty clear. You don't play politics with it and you don't half ass it. You don't vote for it then hold up armor for soldiers screaming something about Bush lied. If you think you were lied to you vote to bring them home, not declare you'll run a better war.

That might be hard for a partisan like yourself to understand. You can't be "sort of" Pax Americana. While you are engaged in the policy, you have to fund it. You can't screw with people's lives by playing both sides of it for political purposes. You can't say get us the hell out of Iraq but put us in Darfur. You can't say get us the hell out of Iraq but get us into Afghanistan and Libya.

So while we are engaged in it, the troops and the hardware they need get my full support. We can't use their bullets, their armor and their paychecks to score political points. That is what you have seen me defend over the years but I've been very consistent that we need to change and end Pax Americana. Most of the posts back then if you check them actually had Groverat going to head with everyone with him supporting the war so get your memory checked.



Who is them? By the way, you've taken to repeating yourself.
I'm just going to find my old explanations to feel better about your dementia.


Nixon was elected by promising to bring the troops home from Vietnam. You've got some serious memory issues.

Really the simple little platitudes you repeat are so sad. Here's a quote from that same earlier post rather than move my fingers again for you.

First on the lying bit. Gore or Obama would have had the same intelligence gathered from the same agencies as Bush did. It is fun to believe they would have acted differently but Obama has kept Gates and has appointed many Democrats who voted for the war or publicly supported it via statements to his cabinet. Rahm, stated he would have voted for it. Clinton, Daschle, and Biden did vote for it. In other words, supporting war including the Iraq war still gets you a slot in the cabinet.

Obama has not declared that preemptive war is wrong. Quite the opposite, he has declared that it is acceptable and that he will just do it better than Bush. Thus he wouldn't have us in Iraq but still would have attacked and supports pouring more troops and money into Afghanistan. He has not declared he will stop us from being the cop of the world via Pax Americana, rather again, the opposite. His speech in Germany declared that we should double down on this policy. The claim is that American has not properly been a force for good in the world and has acted in a questionable way with regard to applying force. The real question shouldn't be are we applying force properly, but rather why should we be wandering the globe applying force at all.

Obama claims he will apply that force properly and commits to applying it more than ever before. In other words he will do preemptive war right, but not get us out of the war and global cop business.

So Obama will be a "change" in this regard, but not really because he simply declares we will be a better cop and use his judgment for a preemptive war done right. We should be out of the cop and war business in my view.



Give it up, I'm laughing. Give it up, I'm laughing. "We all know" and I'm laughing again.

That is quite the logical argument tonton.

Quote:
I could care less if someone desecrates his grave. I could care less if terrorists want to pray to his bones.

I didn't say you cared!

No one cares if you care or not.

Quote:
The point is don't hide the proof and claim religious beliefs when they aren't being followed.

They followed them as close as they could. Also I already outlined why it was important to be rid of him. It's not a matter of you caring. That counts for shit. It's a matter to be rid of him so he isn't made into more of martyr than he already probably is in the eyes of his supporters. If you can't see why that's important you need to think about it a bit more. And if you still can't grasp the situation wash, rinse, and repeat.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #104 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

GW probably would have swaggered out, leaned on the podium, snickered and said, "We got 'im!" The Borg would have blurbed a collective "hoorah" and celebrated Bush all night instead of reflecting on the actual event itself.

Interesting...you roughly described what's happened in reality with Obama.

While Obama's not a podium-leaner, he did say "we got 'im" and whether he "swaggered" to the podium or not he certainly did have his moment of glory in his statement and all the rest (The Borg would have blurbed a collective "hoorah" and celebrated Obama all night instead of reflecting on the actual event itself.) is pretty much happening too.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #105 of 292
"How the president gambled his presidency on a gutsy mission.

By David Corn


On Monday afternoon, I emailed a former CIA officer who has worked on covert operations and asked for his take on the Osama bin Laden operation. He replied:

The [Al Qaeda] system is reeling overseas. Pakistan is terribly embarrassed, and every AQ guy hiding out right now, has to worry not only about predator strikes, but 40 Seals and the agency landing on your roof.

He added, "I was at ground zero last night"meaning CIA headquarters, not the compound. "It was a wonderful evening." He called the mission "a skillful and daring operation that carried considerable risk, but great gain."

He was thinking of the special forces that carried out the strike. He could also have been referring to President Barack Obama. At a press briefing on Monday, White House counterterrorism aide John Brennan called Obama's decision to authorize the operation "one of the most gustiest calls of any President in recent memory." Brennan works for the guy, but he was right: Obama had gambled his presidency on this mission.

Today, it's all hurrahsincluding from Republicans and conservative foreign policy advocates, even those who routinely denounce Obama as a weak-kneed bumbler and naïf who practically yearns to undermine the national security of the nation. For instance, in February, Newt Gingrich slammed the Obama administration as "a very weak government led by a group of amateurs in foreign policy." (Months earlier, he had blasted Obama for possessing a "Kenyan, anti-colonial" worldview.) But Monday morning, Gingrich commended Obama for having "intensified" the US campaign "against our enemies."

Yet imagine what Gingrich and the rest of the Obama Hate Machine would be saying had the mission failed. In short, the message would have been: Jimmy Carter, Jimmy Carter, Jimmy Carter. The right-wingers would have pummeled Obama, viciously comparing him to the last Democratic president in office during a botched rescue attemptthe Desert One operation that sought in 1980 to win the freedom of American hostages held in Tehran. That debacle in the desert, a secret mission that instantly became a PR nightmare, helped define Carterfairly or notas a loser and probably contributed to his loss later that year to Ronald Reagan.

Without doubt, the planners of the OBL operation were aware of the ghost of Desert One. Certainly White House officials, including the president, were braced for an onslaught, should the mission go bad. And there were hundreds of ways the operation could have gone south. A single bad assumption or stray bullet could have ended the operation and caused an ignominious failure in Abbottabad. In such a scenario, whatever the cause, Obama would have received the blame, no matter if the origin of the screw-up had had nothing to do with him.

Obama was betting his presidency on the actions of people he didn't know: US Navy SEALs working under tough conditions on a high-stakes mission thousands of miles away. Moreover, Obama and his aides must have known that the stigma of failure could be far more defining than the aura of success. Though this major victory for Obama can be expected to boost his prospects all the way to Election Day, such a triumph could easily be wiped away by an unrelated setback or failure (say, another economic collapse or terrorist attack). Yet had the mission flopped, the stench of defeat would have been tough to overcome between now and November 2012. The potential political liability was greater than the potential political benefit.

A cautious president overly guided by political concerns would have been reluctant to ride into such a cost-benefit equation. Yet Obama signed the order for the mission on Fridayand then proceeded with his schedule, which included trips to Alabama (to meet with Americans who survived tornadoes) Cape Canaveral (for a shuttle launch that was scrubbed) and Miami (for an commencement address), as well as the White House Correspondents' Association shindig, and a Sunday morning game of golf. In retrospect, his joke about Donald Trump's big decisionswhom to fireis even sharper than it appeared Saturday night. (I spoke with Obama at a small reception minutes before the dinner began; there was no tell.)

It must have been a nerve-wracking series of dayseven for such a cool customer. "It was probably one of the most anxiety-filled periods of time, I think, in the lives of the people who were assembled here yesterday," Brennan said. But the episode demonstrates that this president, who is often accused (on the left) of wimping out of political fights and (on the right) of too often wringing his hands, is willing to act decisively and take political chances. Not in every instance. But for certain stakes at certain times. (Brennan noted that there had been a vigorous debate within the administration over whether to proceed with the operationwhy not bomb instead?prior to Obama giving the green light to the higher-risk option.)

The anti-Obama loudmouths who claim that he's not leadership material or that he isn't sufficiently concerned about threats to the United States (or that he's a secret, Kenyan-born Muslim socialist who wants to destroy the United States in order to gain dictatorial powers)*are going to have a tough time selling that swill after this. But they will probably find a pivot point in the future and return to throwing red herrings at the commander in chief. Meanwhile, the president, who once earned the nickname "No-Drama Obama," showed he was willing to put his own future on the line for a high-risk action that he deemed necessary for the good of the nation. And that line was quite a thin one."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...ama-bets-house
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #106 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Wrong, it was a humiliating act to bury him at sea and it was against islamic tradition. Only if the muslim died at sea and can't reach land before decay it is religiously allowed to bury him at sea, otherwise burial at land is the rule.

As to the argument that no country would have taken his body in, I highly doubt that.

It was a despicable act to just kill him, all this preparation of finding him after 10 years and they just shoot him instead of capturing him and bring him before court?

Maybe if one of your family members got killed in 9-11 your thinking wouldn't be so convoluted.You are a complete idiot to even say bring him to court after how many of thousands of innocent people he killed with the venomous backing of these Islamic organizations that he backed up. A service was to good for him. Throw his body to the sharks and let them have a good fest.
post #107 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's amazing that the most Real Americans (tm Koch brothers) forgot all about how "we must never forget 9/11" and focused on Obama's (that's POTUS Obama) "fake" birth certificate.

How are the TeaBaggers et al going to explain how Obama who they think is or might well be a terrorist was POTUS when they got the real terrorist?

Which members of the Tea Party ever claimed he was a "terrorist?" I for one am just glad bin Laden is dead. If Obama gets credit, fine. He should get some credit...not all of it, but some. This may end up being the only accomplishment he has in office, but at least it's something.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #108 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Maybe if one of your family members got killed in 9-11 your thinking wouldn't be so convoluted.

Appeal to emotion


Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

You are a complete idiot...

Ad hominem


Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

to even say bring him to court after how many of thousands of innocent people he killed...

Begging the question


Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

with the venomous backing of these Islamic organizations that he backed up.

Red herring


Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Throw his body to the sharks and let them have a good fest.

Appeal to revenge? Appeal to animal savagery?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #109 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Which members of the Tea Party ever claimed he was a "terrorist?" I for one am just glad bin Laden is dead. If Obama gets credit, fine. He should get some credit...not all of it, but some. This may end up being the only accomplishment he has in office, but at least it's something.

There's a huge number of Americans, who mostly no doubt, would associate with the Tea Party who think Obama is a Muslim terrorist.

Take the Harris Poll which concluded that 22% of repubs thought that Obama "want's the terrorists to win" Half that figure or even less would be a disturbingly large number of nutters- http://www.harrisinteractive.com/New...3/Default.aspx
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #110 of 292
Against my better judgement...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There's a huge number of Americans,

How many is "huge?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

who mostly

What percentage is "mostly?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

no doubt,

According to who?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

would associate with the Tea Party...

How do you know?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

who think Obama is a Muslim terrorist.

Well...regardless of his religious beliefs...I'm sure his predator drone and cruise missile tactics are generating terror for some. Whether you call this terrorism might be more a matter of point of view than some might admit.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #111 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There's a huge number of Americans, who mostly no doubt, would associate with the Tea Party who think Obama is a Muslim terrorist.

Take the Harris Poll which concluded that 22% of repubs thought that Obama "want's the terrorists to win" Half that figure or even less would be a disturbingly large number of nutters- http://www.harrisinteractive.com/New...3/Default.aspx

Last I checked, Harris Interactive was an opt-in internet based poll. Do you have a reputable poll or even the methodology for that poll?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #112 of 292
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

MA service was to good for him. Throw his body to the sharks and let them have a good fest.

And create more problems for the world?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #113 of 292
Just out of curiosity:

Is anyone familiar with a software package with which the user can manipulate images? I heard that a firm based somewhere in N. California actually markets such a program. It could be another conspiracy theory, but from what I gather, the alleged software, named "Photoshop", could be real.



Of course, dead men tell no tales.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #114 of 292
Why not take him alive and give him a trial?

Well, it would have been too hard.



Maybe we should starting implementing a policy of just executing people we "know" are guilty, because all the stuff associated with ensuring justice was properly done is just too darn complicated and difficult...and, well, we know what the outcome will be anyway.

So it looks like the US media is falling right in line by providing various justifications, rationalizations, kudos and dismissals of any skeptics or critics.

Of course there's the proud photo-op* of the President and his advisors watching their life snuff film:



And who cares about a little "collateral damage" along the way?

*One really has to wonder about people who are willing to sit for a photo-op of watching the killing of someone. Yuck.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #115 of 292
MJ Wilbur, why do you hate America?
You're either with us, or against us.
post #116 of 292
Osama wasn't armed...

but he resisted...

a 54 year old man

against a commando of navy seals...

so he had to be shot...

Makes sense...

And what about the US-forces entering the territory of a souvereign nation without asking for permission?
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #117 of 292
This is getting too funny...and here by "funny" I mean pretty sad:

Now that it has been released that he was unarmed. The next thing we need to be told is that "Bin Laden 'resisted,'" which, apparently means, "He didn't hold up his hands and surrender."

Sounds pretty much like an increasingly common occurrence in the US when someone "resists" a police officer...just "dialed to 11." At least the US is starting to establish a consistent criminal response doctrine.

Anyway, still waiting for President Obama's press conference announcing the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #118 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There's a huge number of Americans, who mostly no doubt, would associate with the Tea Party who think Obama is a Muslim terrorist.

Take the Harris Poll which concluded that 22% of repubs thought that Obama "want's the terrorists to win" Half that figure or even less would be a disturbingly large number of nutters- http://www.harrisinteractive.com/New...3/Default.aspx

You don't actually believe that 22% of Republicans hold that belief, do you? I realize you have a poll there, but it's a poll...of 2,300 people. I just have a hard time believing that. I also have trouble believing that "57 percent of Republicans" believe he's a Muslim.

I'm sure you realize that a lot of these numbers depend on the questions and how they are asked. For example, if someone asks me "In your judgement, was President Obama born in the United States", I would answer "yes." But if that question was worded "Do you believe Obama may have been born outside of the United States?" I would also have to answer "yes," because I do think it's possible.

Wording and methodology are everything here. "Is Obama a Socialist?" is a good example. That's a tough answer for me. He's not a socialist like Chavez and Castro are socialists, be he's clearly got some very socialist ideas. He's expressed them many times, and implemented policies that are clearly "going down that road."

Oh, and remember...you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you take this Harris poll as accurate, then you also know that according to it, 40% of all ADULTS believe Obama is a socialist. That's an extremely, extremely bad poll number. Since you're clearly critical of people with views like the ones expressed in the poll, does that mean that 40% of all adults are "tea baggers?" Where do you think that number comes from?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #119 of 292
I have no problem with OBL being shot on sight. It brings a quick end to the circus that would have happen had he been captured alive. Unless of course they did capture him alive and are holding him for questioning.
post #120 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I have no problem with OBL being shot on sight. It brings a quick end to the circus that would have happen had he been captured alive. Unless of course they did capture him alive and are holding him for questioning.

This is an interesting combination of statements. Is this last sentence a joke or are you serious?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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