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Apple to release Mac OS X Lion through Mac App Store - sources - Page 2

post #41 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave View Post

what backup? we don't even know if backups are allowed or possible.

I wasn't talking about backing up the installer. That may or may not be available. I meant booting from the current backup of your machine.
post #42 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by okboy View Post

Anyone want to guess what it will cost?

I know Snow Leopard was like $30, but that wasn't a feature-rich update.

I'm going for $69. I think they'll want to keep it below $100 anyway.
post #43 of 132
Apple hasn't announced the details obviously, but doesn't it seem likely that a version downloaded from the app store would include the ability to create a bootable backup? Most likely on USB stick or any other hard drive. 10.7 already includes the functionality to create a restore partition, it wouldn't be hard to also create that same partition on an external disk, thumb drive or otherwise.
post #44 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

So if you have an older machine out of warranty and the hard drive takes a dump and has to be physically replaced, how are you going to get the OS back on there if you like to start from scratch and not use a backup? Some people only have that one Mac and the app store isn't available on Windows. This is why I prefer a hard copy option.

Of course we don't really know what Apple is going to do 100% anyways.....

Yep, I hear you. I guess you gotta get in your 747 and fly down to the local apple store and buy the physical CD!

Best
post #45 of 132
Hi!

Last time, I bought a Mac Box Set with Snow Leopard + iLife 09 + iWork 09 and get a neat install.

Shall we expect the same Mac Box Set with Lion + iLife 12 + iWork 12?

I hope so!
post #46 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by rei_vilo View Post

Hi!

Last time, I bought a Mac Box Set with Snow Leopard + iLife 09 + iWork 09 and get a neat install.

Shall we expect the same Mac Box Set with Lion + iLife 12 + iWork 12?

I hope so!

Good point. I hope so. That is the way I've upgraded bc it's the best deal!

Best
post #47 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I wasn't talking about backing up the installer. That may or may not be available. I meant booting from the current backup of your machine.

that's my point, if you completely replace or format the hard drive, it's impossible that you'd have a current backup on your machine.

if you completely replace or format the hard drive, you can't have access to your OS and the app store because you need access to your OS and the app store to get it.
post #48 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I wasn't talking about backing up the installer. That may or may not be available. I meant booting from the current backup of your machine.

Can you boot from a time machine backup?
post #49 of 132
Awesome, my superdrive died on the macbook, and this will let me upgrade without having to replace the drive (out of warranty).
--SHEFFmachine out
Da Bears!
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--SHEFFmachine out
Da Bears!
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post #50 of 132
Like others have said, I'm fine with the digital download method, just would like the option to purchase the physical media. I always like having that handy in case it's needed.
post #51 of 132
Having already used it with both Lion preview and xcode I don't think it is quite ready for prime time. This whole concept probably comes as a response to Hackintoshing and unauthorized VM hosting

Now that OS doesn't even fit on a regular DVD I guess optical drives are going bye-bye although Super Drive does burn DL DVDs. No more Family Pack for you!

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post #52 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Having already used it with both Lion preview and xcode I don't think it is quite ready for prime time. This whole concept probably comes as a response to Hackintoshing and unauthorized VM hosting

Now that OS doesn't even fit on a regular DVD I guess optical drives are going bye-bye although Super Drive does burn DL DVDs. No more Family Pack for you!

The hackintosh thing is interesting although if they also release it on DVD I don't see how that would really stop anything. And assuming they stick with the terms of the App Store, every purchased copy may be a family pack.
post #53 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

and how long will this take to download?????

As long as it takes based on your home Internet connection. How are we supposed to answer this for you? A 4GB file takes me a little under an hour on a 10 megabit connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

I'd like to see them offer it on SD cards or the USB key that comes with the MacBook Airs.

THUNDERBOLT flash drive. 8GB capacity, USB port on the other side for older Macs.

Thunderbolt Mac install process: Copying Lion Files... (shows up for 1.25 seconds) Installing Lion Files... (shows for 20 minutes)

USB Mac install process: Copying Lion Files... (shows up for an hour) Installing Lion Files... (shows for 20 minutes)

Originally Posted by asdasd

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Originally Posted by asdasd

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post #54 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I've never understood why people confuse those two, when there are so many phonetically similar words. It's pretty clear what the two 'o's sound like:

moose
goose
caboose

Loose rhymes with goose, but lose rhymes with choose! The problem is that English is not phonetic and it seems to me that lose is spelt incorrectly more often than not in forums. Whaddya gonna do?

Anyway, is there any indication yet that Rosetta will work in Lion? I am very reluctant to dump a number of small, occasional use PPC apps and will not upgrade until I buy a new machine if that is the case.
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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post #55 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyde View Post

Works great until the OS is hosed and you can't download the OS to your machine from the internet.

download it while the machine is working, and put it on a thumb drive. crisis averted.
post #56 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by dish View Post

download it while the machine is working, and but it on a thumb drive. crisis averted.

IF you can, which is unlikely.

what makes you think that you can copy it to a USB drive or disc? I have disc for Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard. None of those disc can be copied, some of them can only be used on their original machine (or the exact model). the past 3 OSes can't be copied, and so far there's nothing to suggest we can just make backup copies of Lion.
post #57 of 132
It was kind of obvious, wasn't it? They're releasing the unfinished developer betas through the Store, and phasing out boxed software. Anyway, it'll be awesome to get the new OS with just a few clicks and have it install automatically!
I am the Great Bug

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I am the Great Bug

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post #58 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

Anyway, is there any indication yet that Rosetta will work in Lion?

None.

Quote:
I am very reluctant to dump a number of small, occasional use PPC apps and will not upgrade until I buy a new machine if that is the case.

What do you believe will run on PowerPC that doesn't have a newer version on Intel?

And why can't you just do what I do about that?



Sorry about the temporary hugeness if you saw that. Why don't we support the TIMG tag?

Originally Posted by asdasd

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Originally Posted by asdasd

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post #59 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I believe Lion creates a rescue partition on your hard drive from which you can boot to repair the main partition and/or redownload the OS if necessary.

This would work, until the drive suffers physical damage.

A separate rescue/install drive is still needed.
post #60 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by okboy View Post

Anyone want to guess what it will cost?

I know Snow Leopard was like $30, but that wasn't a feature-rich update.

I have a strong feeling it'll be either $49 or $79. Though, they may keep Lion (and all their future upgrades) at $29, which would be really nice.
post #61 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewisdorigo View Post

OS X Lion makes a partition on the Hard Disk, and you install via that rather than an installer on the main partition, allowing you to format your disk if you want to (the install partition is hidden, so you don’t need to worry about accidentally format that).

The install also creates a Restore partition, which you can use to reinstall Lion if there are ever any problems. ...

The main thing that worries me about the new setup is that not every install disk is equal when it comes to OS-X.

I had a situation just today where a whole set of brand new iMacs refused to load the OS CD using the "c" key trick, or by using the install program on the disc. We thought the first machine had a bad CD or a bad drive at first so we tried another machine and had the same problem. Simply refuses to install.

Tried multiple retail Snow Leopard discs on multiple computers manufactured at diff times during Snow Leopards run and all of them failed completely (but in slightly different ways), and hung the computer.

When we tried the grey disc that comes in the box with that particular computer it worked fine, first time. The OS-X install discs don't seem to be all the same, and they don't always work for all machines.

The Grey CD's will not be shipped if they drop the optical drive, but hopefully they do that USB stick thing still because if you don't have the original disc that came with that particular machine you might be completely up the creek some day.
post #62 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave View Post

IF you can, which is unlikely.

Why would it be unlikely? Apple realizes that people will have drives crash, I would think they would ENCOURAGE people to have a bootable backup whether it's on another drive, a thumb drive, or burned to DVD. You have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.
post #63 of 132
This is a classic example of needing ID to get ID. In this case, needing the OS in order to download the OS.

I think this problem could be solved in future Macs if they started building a small memory module into the logic board that would contain 'downloaded' source OS files ready to install. This would seem a smarter solution to the separate HDD partition, allowing for painless HDD upgrades. You'd still be able to download from the App Store and store on your new machine separate from the HDD you're planning on upgrading.
post #64 of 132
I can't help but feel a lot of anxiety with this. It seems like Apple is moving slowly in the direction of taking away control of files and the computer from users: no physical media -- must download from Apple; eliminating hard-drives, super-drives, etcetera; documents, music, photos, etcetera will be in the "cloud"; your iPhone will be an electronic wallet; etcetera; the Mac becoming a closed system maybe (?). A Mac will just become a "dumb terminal" and you'll have to pay a monthly fee to use your computer. If you don't pay, then no access. I know it is not this way now, but it just seems like things are going in that direction. The "bean-counters" wanting that steady steam of money via subscriptions. It'll be marketed as "the best thing", "the way to go", "insanely great", etc. I feel like the man in the 1984 commercial has changed from Bill Gates to Steve Jobs. Some of this also comes across as change for change's sake. I don't mean to be a "troll" or a scare monger. Not trying to start a flame war. Just real concerns I have.
post #65 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewisdorigo View Post

Im quite interested in what this means for the license for OS X.

Correct me if Im wrong, but in the past, the OS X EULA only allowed for it to be installed on a single Mac unless you bought the Family Pack which allowed 4, if I remember correctly (of course, there was nothing stopping you from installing the single license version on multiple Macs).

The Mac App Store only allows software, with a license to be installed on any Mac owned by the same person.

Will the version of Lion available on the Mac App Store be under the same license as the rest of the software on the Store, or will the make an exemption for OS X?

Along similar lines, I was just thinking that the Mac App Store is an effective anti-piracy tool. I have to assume that apps still come wrapped in some kind of DRM (am I wrong?), so rather than go the Microsoft route of forcing people to activate their software, punch in product keys, etc. etc., simply wrap the program in DRM and force the purchase through a store that requires authentication/verification of your ownership credentials. That said, for a major piece of software like the OS, I have to imagine Apple will continue to offer physical media sales, or at least an option of burning some kind of disc image or creating a bootable flash image.
post #66 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What do you believe will run on PowerPC that doesn't have a newer version on Intel?

And why can't you just do what I do about that?

[IMG]V large pic![/IMG]

Sorry about the temporary hugeness if you saw that. Why don't we support the TIMG tag?

There are apps that I use very occasionally, some of which cost quite a bit (Photoshop plug-ins for example) that I can't justify spending on again just for a bit of playing around now and again.

I wasn't quite sure what that picture was showing me. Are you suggesting have a 10.6 partition? That or install 10.6 on an external drive would work presumably.
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
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post #67 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Banana View Post

This is a classic example of needing ID to get ID. In this case, needing the OS in order to download the OS.

I think this problem could be solved in future Macs if they started building a small memory module into the logic board that would contain 'downloaded' source OS files ready to install. This would seem a smarter solution to the separate HDD partition, allowing for painless HDD upgrades. You'd still be able to download from the App Store and store on your new machine separate from the HDD you're planning on upgrading.

no sure when it would happen. but HDD will go away. thunderbolt has enough speed for pc to move away from including big HDD when a new pc is shipped.
post #68 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCarbon View Post

I'd prefer to have a manual way to rebuild my OS when it dies, rather than trying to deal with someone else holding on to the source files.

Thanks anyway.

If you are just upgrading this makes a lot of sense, probably will be much cheaper. Who knows though, they may simply provide download of a tool that can either install from the downloaded dmg or burn a disc for you, save Apple a ton in manufacturing costs & if each update includes new version of the install then ideally saves users money on having to buy new media.
post #69 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by anakin1992 View Post

no sure when it would happen. but HDD will go away. thunderbolt has enough speed for pc to move away from including big HDD when a new pc is shipped.

I don't follow what you mean. Are you talking about PCs shipping with no hard drive? No internal drive? Even with TB you'll still have an external drive (someday maybe all SSD instead of conventional HD, but that's a long way away). I don't get it.
post #70 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Why would it be unlikely? Apple realizes that people will have drives crash, I would think they would ENCOURAGE people to have a bootable backup whether it's on another drive, a thumb drive, or burned to DVD. You have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.

No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made, and there's been no announcement that this one will either.
post #71 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

and how long will this take to download?????

Depends on your download speed. With my lowly 8 Mbps DSL it takes around 2-3 hours.

Way faster than waiting for physical media.
post #72 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

I don't follow what you mean. Are you talking about PCs shipping with no hard drive? No internal drive? Even with TB you'll still have an external drive (someday maybe all SSD instead of conventional HD, but that's a long way away). I don't get it.

a small SSD drive, 64G, would be enough for bootloader etc. the rest of data, including OS, will be stored at external drives via thunderbolt link. those external drives will be also SSD as HDD can not speed up enough to handle thunderbolt speed of 1000MB/s. or at least SSD is needed for buffering access to HDD drives, otherwise, thunderbolt link will be under utilized.
post #73 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave View Post

No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made

What are you talking about?

Except if by "allowed" you mean legally, you could easily make a backup disc of any previous OS X version. Even a backup USB stick.

Oh, and even if you meant that didn't allowed for a backup legally: who cares, people did it all the time, it's not like Apple is gonna search your house for backups of LEGALLY owned cds....
post #74 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by chabig View Post

I believe Lion creates a rescue partition on your hard drive from which you can boot to repair the main partition and/or redownload the OS if necessary.

doesn't help if your drive fails...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave View Post

pro: one less disc to keep track of. my family already lost my iWork disc.

cons: what if i want to format the hard drive and restart from scratch? or even just archive and install? what if i completely replace my hard drive? what if i want to sell my mac and get a new one, would i retain the license or would the buyer get it? how would they reinstall the OS after I wipe the hard drive? how long is this going to take to download? will we be able and authorized to burn our own install DVDs from the downloaded software?

I'm sure Apple is smart enough to think of that... and will have something thats an option. Maybe when you purchase Lion in the Mac App Store they'll also send a DVD or USB stick to you.. maybe for an extra fee...

Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Can you boot from a time machine backup?

nope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

The main thing that worries me about the new setup is that not every install disk is equal when it comes to OS-X.

I had a situation just today where a whole set of brand new iMacs refused to load the OS CD using the "c" key trick, or by using the install program on the disc. We thought the first machine had a bad CD or a bad drive at first so we tried another machine and had the same problem. Simply refuses to install.

Tried multiple retail Snow Leopard discs on multiple computers manufactured at diff times during Snow Leopards run and all of them failed completely (but in slightly different ways), and hung the computer.

When we tried the grey disc that comes in the box with that particular computer it worked fine, first time. The OS-X install discs don't seem to be all the same, and they don't always work for all machines.

The Grey CD's will not be shipped if they drop the optical drive, but hopefully they do that USB stick thing still because if you don't have the original disc that came with that particular machine you might be completely up the creek some day.

This is perfectly normal. Your older retail discs didn't have the drivers for the new Macs.... there was no way for it to operate, so it wouldn't work.. you needed the discs that came with it that was probably already 10.6.7 with the newer drivers for the newer machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

There are apps that I use very occasionally, some of which cost quite a bit (Photoshop plug-ins for example) that I can't justify spending on again just for a bit of playing around now and again.

I wasn't quite sure what that picture was showing me. Are you suggesting have a 10.6 partition? That or install 10.6 on an external drive would work presumably.

that was SheepSaver, an emulator for Classic... that will not even work for you, thats only for running software before Mac OS X. If you have PPC Mac OS X software, theres not much you can do but find some non-PPC replacement or upgrade.
post #75 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave View Post

that won't do a lot of good if your hard drive fails, or if you decide to replace it.

That's the problem we see all the time with Acer and HP and Dell and all the other companies.

At least if Apple distributes it like they did with XCode you can keep the installation application on another drive then if need be install from the original restore disks and then run the installer. Would take little more than an hour to do I would imagine.

Not so the other companies I mentioned. Getting the restore disks off them once I've replaced the HDD in their machines makes collecting hen's teeth considerably easier.
post #76 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave View Post

No previous versions of OS X have allowed for backup disc to be made, and there's been no announcement that this one will either.

There has been no announcement AT ALL. No announcement of ANYTHING.

Previous versions are irrelevant, delivering it this way is a first for apple so precedent from those OS releases is absolutely meaningless.

Again, you have no idea what is "unlikely", just an imagination that goes straight to the worst case scenario.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anakin1992 View Post

a small SSD drive, 64G, would be enough for bootloader etc. the rest of data, including OS, will be stored at external drives via thunderbolt link. those external drives will be also SSD as HDD can not speed up enough to handle thunderbolt speed of 1000MB/s. or at least SSD is needed for buffering access to HDD drives, otherwise, thunderbolt link will be under utilized.

I don't agree at all. Starting to put external drives on every machine would be a step backwards - the reason you do external is because the internal you have is already full. We will see more and more SSD but HD isn't going away for a long time (if ever) since it is so much more expensive (and for small capacities) and many people simply don't need SSD speed for everything (particularly large amounts of data like music and video libraries).

Thunderbolt is a nice addition, but it doesn't replace internal drive busses, which are plenty fast and likely to get faster before we see drives that are too fast for SATA III. Thunderbolt WILL be underutilized, particularly in the early part of its release, but that's not a big deal and no reason to totally change how computers are set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123 View Post

I'm sure Apple is smart enough to think of that... and will have something thats an option. Maybe when you purchase Lion in the Mac App Store they'll also send a DVD or USB stick to you.. maybe for an extra fee...

Or just have you burn your own DVD or create a bootable thumb drive. No need to send a physical copy to someone who just downloaded it.
post #77 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by foljs View Post

Depends on your download speed. With my lowly 8 Mbps DSL it takes around 2-3 hours.

Way faster than waiting for physical media.

if the process of loading new OS from appstore is different from that physical media where everything is stored on the disc, downloading might be faster to boot up the new OS and then component-ize the rest. some optimizations have to be there.
post #78 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

There has been no announcement AT ALL. No announcement of ANYTHING.

there's been a lot of announcements, actually. Apple even has a section of their site dedicated to these announcements.
post #79 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

I don't agree at all. Starting to put external drives on every machine would be a step backwards - the reason you do external is because the internal you have is already full. We will see more and more SSD but HD isn't going away for a long time (if ever) since it is so much more expensive (and for small capacities) and many people simply don't need SSD speed for everything (particularly large amounts of data like music and video libraries).

Thunderbolt is a nice addition, but it doesn't replace internal drive busses, which are plenty fast and likely to get faster before we see drives that are too fast for SATA III. Thunderbolt WILL be underutilized, particularly in the early part of its release, but that's not a big deal and no reason to totally change how computers are set up.

those traditional parallel buses are gone. everything serious for business are point to point serial protocol now, my friend. even those interconnects among multi-cores inside of intel CPUs are all serial protocol. SATA III can not be faster than thunderbolt unless SATA III uses fiber for transport.

the price/performance on SSD vs HDD is not fixed number as SSD will ramp up and cost to build it will go down.
post #80 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinDave View Post

there's been a lot of announcements, actually. Apple even has a section of their site dedicated to these announcements.

I meant that apple hasn't made a single announcement about how 10.7 will be sold and distributed.

In case you missed it, this article is a RUMOR and while my guess is that it's likely true, since it hasn't been announced by Apple, the full facts aren't known yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anakin1992 View Post

those traditional parallel buses are gone. everything serious for business are point to point serial protocol now, my friend. even those interconnects among multi-cores inside of intel CPUs are all serial protocol. SATA III can not be faster than thunderbolt unless SATA III uses fiber for transport.

the price/performance on SSD vs HDD is not fixed number as SSD will ramp up and cost to build it will go down.

What do you mean those busses are gone? Last I checked they're on every last computer sold. And what do you mean by "serious for business"? SATA is huge overkill already for the vast majority of "business" use. If future SATA needs higher speeds than copper can handle, then future versions would switch to fiber. Or they'll just create an internal version of TB or a similar standard. But HDD isn't going away any time soon, nor are drives going to suddenly switch from internal to external just because TB came along. And of course SSD will get cheaper, but the point where it gets cheap enough (and cheap for big drives) to kill off HD is years away.
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