or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Lawsuit accuses Apple, others of 'conspiring' to keep employee wages low
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Lawsuit accuses Apple, others of 'conspiring' to keep employee wages low - Page 2

post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryoTech View Post

Your point is what again?... The DOJ already slapped these guys for what they did, are you drunk, high or just plain stupid? Plus you are going on and on about the salaries being inflated when clearly majority of the people affected by this were artists and non-engineers who make like 40k - 50k/year... Not to mention the fact that the issue is salary fixing and collusion, and has nothing to do with what you're blabbering about.

Sorry I'm breaking my rule here... I normally make it a point not argue with single digit I.Q folk such as yourself. Please come back when you raise that to an acceptable number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macprog View Post

I thought the issue was salary fixing, why are you talking like a moron?

Funny how people like you two have no better arguments than ad hominem attacks.

You're arguing that tech companies engage in salary fixing - they have somehow colluded to fix salaries at some agreed-upon level.

The facts are that computer science professionals earn more (significantly more, in most cases) than people with similar levels of skill and education.

Yes, there are non-compsci people working for these companies, but there's no way to pull out their salaries from the data I have. But for the salaries where we CAN draw conclusions, the tech employees are earning far more.

The only way to reconcile the fact with your allegation would be if the companies had colluded to set salaries HIGHER than the market would have. That would be insane. Furthermore, if it were true, the employees would be getting paid MORE than a fair market salary and there would therefore be no harm.

The problem is that there are so many people who see an allegation and are unable to think it through logically - and automatically assume "guilty until proven innocent". The facts just don't support the allegations, so let's wait until there are facts that do before crucifying lots of major tech firms.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Funny how people like you two have no better arguments than ad hominem attacks.

You're arguing that tech companies engage in salary fixing - they have somehow colluded to fix salaries at some agreed-upon level.

The facts are that computer science professionals earn more (significantly more, in most cases) than people with similar levels of skill and education.

Yes, there are non-compsci people working for these companies, but there's no way to pull out their salaries from the data I have. But for the salaries where we CAN draw conclusions, the tech employees are earning far more.

The only way to reconcile the fact with your allegation would be if the companies had colluded to set salaries HIGHER than the market would have. That would be insane. Furthermore, if it were true, the employees would be getting paid MORE than a fair market salary and there would therefore be no harm.

The problem is that there are so many people who see an allegation and are unable to think it through logically - and automatically assume "guilty until proven innocent". The facts just don't support the allegations, so let's wait until there are facts that do before crucifying lots of major tech firms.

You cannot compare data points from other industries. You don't realize how much these people work for what they get. You can only compare data points from other big companies on this list.

It is hard to do for artists, they're really only in this industry. But engineers you can. And you're talking about salaries now vs salaries back then... Either way, your point is stupid. But for fun, look at the salaries from somewhat competing companies.. don't now quote salaries of painters.. I mean Artists from Pixar can really only go to LucasFilm...

Ebay pays way more, so does Sony.

Sorry for calling you stupid...

By the way ... please see the DOJ judgement against them

http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f262600/262660.htm

These are not claims... this is the proposed final judgement from the DOJ, which there is NO DISPUTE... The companies already agreed they did this and they stopped... Can we stop with the misplaced argument about salaries?

DOJ = Department of Justice ... AKA not another lawfirm... If they investigate and find you guilty, YOU are.
post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryoTech View Post

You cannot compare data points from other industries. You don't realize how much these people work for what they get. You can only compare data points from other big companies on this list.

It is hard to do for artists, they're really only in this industry. But engineers you can. And you're talking about salaries now vs salaries back then... Either way, your point is stupid. But for fun, look at the salaries from somewhat competing companies.. don't now quote salaries of painters.. I mean Artists from Pixar can really only go to LucasFilm...

Ebay pays way more, so does Sony.

You obviously have no experience with statistics. In order to make a valid comparison, you want a range of examples. Relying on a single example is foolish. For example, we could say that John Doe at eBay makes $100 K while Jane Doe at Lockheed makes $70 K - so there must be price fixing going on. Obviously, that argument is absurd - but that's what you're claiming.

We don't have company by company numbers. All we have are numbers by occupation. So let's see if we can break it down:

1. Computer industries hire a higher percentage of computer science graduates than non-computer industries.

2. Someone like a life or physical scientist is less likely to work for a computer company than a non-computer company.

3. Physical and life scientists and computer scientists have similar educational requirements - 4 years of college.

4. As shown above, the average compensation for computer scientists is $35.05 per hour.

5. The average compensation for life and physical scientists is $28.03 per hour.

Now, if computer science companies are conspiring to fix wages, they must be conspiring to fix wages at a HIGHER level. Or maybe they're not conspiring at all.

Yes, I realize that this is anecdotal and doesn't prove the point, but considering the there's absolutely NO evidence of conspiracy available right now (other than a few unsupported complaints), your assertion that the companies are conspiring just doesn't hold water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CryoTech View Post

Sorry for calling you stupid... I'll refrain from pointing out the obvious next time..

Once again, you have no logical arguments, so the ad hominems fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CryoTech View Post

By the way ... if you are able to read and comprehend, please see the DOJ judgement against them

http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f262600/262660.htm

These are not claims... this is the proposed final judgement from the DOJ, which there is NO DISPUTE... The companies already agreed they did this and they stopped... Can we stop with the stupid argument about salaries? It makes you sound dumber and dumber.

DOJ = Department of Justice ... AKA not another lawfirm... If they investigate and find you guilty, YOU are.

Did you even read that case? It says that they admit that they had a no solicitation policy. Nothing at all in there about fixing wages - which is what you and others are alleging.

Hint: the fact that they admitted guilt to one charge does not automatically make them guilty of every other charge that's thrown at them.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You obviously have no experience with statistics. In order to make a valid comparison, you want a range of examples. Relying on a single example is foolish. For example, we could say that John Doe at eBay makes $100 K while Jane Doe at Lockheed makes $70 K - so there must be price fixing going on. Obviously, that argument is absurd - but that's what you're claiming.

We don't have company by company numbers. All we have are numbers by occupation. So let's see if we can break it down:

1. Computer industries hire a higher percentage of computer science graduates than non-computer industries.

2. Someone like a life or physical scientist is less likely to work for a computer company than a non-computer company.

3. Physical and life scientists and computer scientists have similar educational requirements - 4 years of college.

4. As shown above, the average compensation for computer scientists is $35.05 per hour.

5. The average compensation for life and physical scientists is $28.03 per hour.

Now, if computer science companies are conspiring to fix wages, they must be conspiring to fix wages at a HIGHER level. Or maybe they're not conspiring at all.

Yes, I realize that this is anecdotal and doesn't prove the point, but considering the there's absolutely NO evidence of conspiracy available right now (other than a few unsupported complaints), your assertion that the companies are conspiring just doesn't hold water.



Once again, you have no logical arguments, so the ad hominems fly.



Did you even read that case? It says that they admit that they had a no solicitation policy. Nothing at all in there about fixing wages - which is what you and others are alleging.

Hint: the fact that they admitted guilt to one charge does not automatically make them guilty of every other charge that's thrown at them.

I did read that case, you clearly didn't... Talking about life sciences and comparing it to the 12-15 hour per day work life style of these guys/girls that help these companies make at least $1 million per year for each employee (avg that includes janitors too... meaning they make wayy more money off of each creative employee..)...
post #45 of 51
I would appreciate you doing some research regarding this jrag.
post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryoTech View Post

You are embarrassing yourself all by yourself... I did read that case, you clearly didn't...

Really? Then show me where the link you cited said anything about fixing wages....
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Really? Then show me where the link you cited said anything about fixing wages....

http://www.lieffcabraser.com/media/pnc/7/media.797.pdf

Go read the factual allegations.

"First, each agreed not to cold call each
other’s employees. Second, each agreed to notify the other company when making an offer to an
employee of the other company, if that employee applied for a job notwithstanding the absence of
cold calling. Third, each agreed that if either made an offer to such an employee of the other
company, neither company would counteroffer above the initial offer. This third agreement was
created with the intent and effect of eliminating “bidding wars,” whereby an employee could use
multiple rounds of bidding between Pixar and Lucasfilm to increase her total compensation."

I don't know if these documents are of public record, but clearly the lawfirm seems to have it, and hence filed this lawsuit.

Obviously a document like this with Steve Jobs's signature would be evidence the lawfirm would keep to themselves until the trial. they're not particularity bothered if a monkey like you believes them or not... I would bet they have this agreement, because if they didn't, they'd be in a huge pile of trouble.

Meanwhile you come along and say "They claim to have this and that but I need to see them, or else it is false"

I'm sorry but at this point I'm going to have to ignore you.
post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by CryoTech View Post

http://www.lieffcabraser.com/media/pnc/7/media.797.pdf

Go read the factual allegations.

"First, each agreed not to cold call each
others employees. Second, each agreed to notify the other company when making an offer to an
employee of the other company, if that employee applied for a job notwithstanding the absence of
cold calling. Third, each agreed that if either made an offer to such an employee of the other
company, neither company would counteroffer above the initial offer. This third agreement was
created with the intent and effect of eliminating bidding wars, whereby an employee could use
multiple rounds of bidding between Pixar and Lucasfilm to increase her total compensation."

I don't know if these documents are of public record, but clearly the lawfirm seems to have it, and hence filed this lawsuit.

Obviously a document like this with Steve Jobs's signature would be evidence the lawfirm would keep to themselves until the trial. they're not particularity bothered if a monkey like you believes them or not... I would bet they have this agreement, because if they didn't, they'd be in a huge pile of trouble.

Meanwhile a troll like you comes along and says "They claim to have this and that but I need to see them, or else it is false"

You are a troll, and a stupid one at that. Wish this site had a block feature, but consider yourself ignored.

Why is it that juveniles who are incapable of logical argument call everyone who points out their factual errors a troll?

What part of "ALLEGATIONS" do you not understand? Obviously, the plaintiff can make all sorts of allegations. Since you seem to think that allegations are always true, maybe we should just shut down the courts. After all, if someone makes an allegation, it must be true - so there's no need for a trial, right?

So far, no one has provided any evidence that what salary fixing is going on. Furthermore, the fact that computer science people have much greater mobility and greater salaries than people in other fields with comparable education suggests that there is no truth to the claims.

I'll be happy to look at real evidence - if you ever come up with any.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #49 of 51
Cryotech stated this, clearly in response to the lawsuit where it says that they colluded to not have a bidding war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CryoTech View Post

There are multiple houses up for auction so the people bidding all collude to not outbid each other... so EVERYONE GETS THEIR HOUSES AT THE MINIMUM PRICE!!!

And you responded with this clearly making it seem like you didn't do much reading regarding this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Except that's not what is being alleged. The allegations are that these companies have an agreement not to poach employees from the other - that is, the company will not go after employees. The employees are free to seek jobs at the other companies - and that has happened a lot.

Proof that you never read anything... and now you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What part of "ALLEGATIONS" do you not understand? Obviously, the plaintiff can make all sorts of allegations. Since you seem to think that allegations are always true, maybe we should just shut down the courts. After all, if someone makes an allegation, it must be true - so there's no need for a trial, right?

Suggesting that, that was only what was being "alleged" and therefore not true. Except that you stated earlier that, "that's not what is being alleged", it was only about anti-poaching.
post #50 of 51
Cryotech:

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/pr...010/265387.htm

"According to today's complaint, Lucasfilm and Pixar agreed not to cold call each other's employees; agreed to notify each other when making an offer to an employee of the other company; and agreed, when offering a position to the other company's employee, not to counteroffer with compensation above the initial offer."

This is from the Department of Justice... Lucasfilm & Pixar should pay for this.

Also:

"The agreement between Lucasfilm and Pixar restrained competition for digital animators without any procompetitive justification and distorted the competitive process,"

These are non-engineers.
post #51 of 51
Guys, get a room.

jragosta isn't a troll, he's got almost 2000 posts. He just doesn't believe the same things you do and a lawsuit is a damn big document to read. So it's easy to not get everyone on the same page at the same time. If it was there wouldn't be a lawsuit in the first place.

The ones potentially behaving like trolls, or at least sock-puppets are macprog and CryoTech, both very low post count posters going on an immediate offensive out of left field. They have good valid points so I don't think they are trolls, but guys, stop acting badly or we will all have to ignore you.

And OBTW, CryoTech there is an ignore option, so go ahead and ignore jragosta. Go to the UserCP and <Edit Ignore List> is on the left.

Personally, I believe the basis of the allegations. Similar ones have floated about in the Valley for a long time amongst a bunch of firms. Previous lawsuits over similar non-active-poaching arrangements have settled too.

I'm not sure there is much loss to the workers though. This doesn't prevent movement, just active poaching and wage bidding wars for line workers - something which isn't particularly likely to happen anyway. The top performers never get into bidding wars, the new firm tends to go big to ensure the right talent moves and counter offers aren't usually made then because there are secondary reasons that top talent individual is leaving anyway -- like personality conflicts or limited upward mobility in the current position.

Yeah, the practice needs to stop, it's not right. But to think that stopping these little improper side agreements are going to magically make the average worker more money are naive. Average worker means easy to find, and that applies more downward pressure on wages than any amount of non-bidding war wage agreement. The recognized top talent won't be affected by this because they already command the market power and negotiate big up front with no intention on staying after they decide to leave the previous job.
.
Reply
.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Lawsuit accuses Apple, others of 'conspiring' to keep employee wages low