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Let's face it: none of our environmental fixes WORK!

post #1 of 69
Thread Starter 
Guardian.com

A stark assessment and a revealing piece into the mind of the reasoning for what counts as "environmentalism" in this day and age.

Who is George Monbiot?

Quote:
George Joshua Richard Monbiot (born 27 January 1963) is an English writer, known for his environmental and political activism. He lives in Machynlleth, Wales,[1] and writes a weekly column for The Guardian, and is the author of a number of books, including Captive State: The Corporate Takeover of Britain (2000) and Bring on the Apocalypse: Six Arguments for Global Justice (2008). He is the founder of The Land is Ours campaign, which campaigns peacefully for the right of access to the countryside and its resources in the United Kingdom.[2] In January 2010, Monbiot founded the ArrestBlair.org website which offers a reward to people attempting a peaceful citizens arrest of former British prime minister Tony Blair for alleged crimes against peace.[3]

Not exactly a crusading conservative.....

Quote:
Climate change

Monbiot believes that drastic action coupled with strong political will is needed to combat global warming. Monbiot has written that climate change is the "moral question of the 21st century" and that there is an urgent need for a raft of emergency actions he believes will stop climate change, including: setting targets on greenhouse emissions using the latest science; issuing every citizen with a 'personal carbon ration'; new building regulations with houses built to German passivhaus standards; banning incandescent light bulbs, patio heaters, garden floodlights, and other inefficient technologies and wasteful applications; constructing large offshore wind farms; replacing the national gas grid with a hydrogen pipe network; a new national coach network to make journeys using public transport faster than using a car; all petrol stations to supply leasable electric car batteries with stations equipped with a crane service to replace depleted batteries; scrap road-building and road-widening programmes, redirecting their budgets to tackle climate change; reduce UK airport capacity by 90%; closing down all out-of-town superstores and replacing them with warehouses and a delivery system.[2

Not exactly the middle of the road type on the climate issue....

Yet, you would think a person as strident and clear in his views would be as strident and clear in his reasoning. Yet it is an incomprehensible mish-mash because..... well because really humanity is the problem. This piece is fantastic in it's honesty and frightening in it's conclusions.

Quote:
You think you're discussing technologies, and you quickly discover that you're discussing belief systems. The battle among environmentalists over how or whether our future energy is supplied is a cipher for something much bigger: who we are, who we want to be, how we want society to evolve. Beside these concerns, technical matters parts per million, costs per megawatt hour, cancers per sievert carry little weight. We choose our technology or absence of technology according to a set of deep beliefs: beliefs that in some cases remain unexamined.

Settled science, more like differences in religious dogma.

Quote:
The case against abandoning nuclear power, for example, is a simple one: it will be replaced either by fossil fuels or by renewables that would otherwise have replaced fossil fuels. In either circumstance, greenhouse gases, other forms of destruction and human deaths and injuries all rise.

You abandon nuclear, then people are going to demand fossil fuels.

Quote:
What the nuclear question does is to concentrate the mind about the electricity question. Decarbonising the economy involves an increase in infrastructure. Infrastructure is ugly, destructive and controlled by remote governments and corporations. These questions are so divisive because the same world-view tells us that we must reduce emissions, defend our landscapes and resist both the state and big business. The four objectives are at odds.

Note that infrastructure is the enemy here.

Quote:
But even if we can accept an expansion of infrastructure, the technocentric, carbon-counting vision I've favoured runs into trouble. The problem is that it seeks to accommodate a system that cannot be accommodated: a system that demands perpetual economic growth. We could, as Zero Carbon Britain envisages, become carbon-free by 2030. Growth then ensures that we have to address the problem all over again by 2050, 2070 and thereon after.

Economic growth is the enemy here.

Quote:
In the latest edition of his excellent magazine The Land, Simon Fairlie responds furiously to my suggestion that we should take industry into account when choosing our energy sources. His article exposes a remarkable but seldom noticed problem: that most of those who advocate an off-grid, land-based economy have made no provision for manufactures. I'm not talking about the pointless rubbish in the FT's How To Spend It supplement. I'm talking about the energy required to make bricks, glass, metal tools and utensils, textiles (except the hand-loomed tweed Fairlie suggests we wear), ceramics and soap: commodities that almost everyone sees as the barest possible requirements.

Manufacturing, even items as simple as soap and ceramics is the enemy. I seriously doubt those folks driving a Prius are aware that a land based economy about staying local and subsistence living. I guess ol' Jesse Jr was right, the iPads are the problem.

Quote:
Are people like Fairlie really proposing that we do without them altogether? If not, what energy sources do they suggest we use? Charcoal would once again throw industry into direct competition with agriculture, spreading starvation and ensuring that manufactured products became the preserve of the very rich. (Remember, as EA Wrigley points out, that half the land surface of Britain could produce enough charcoal to make 1.25m tonnes of bar iron a fraction of current demand and nothing else.) An honest environmentalism needs to explain which products should continue to be manufactured and which should not, and what the energy sources for these manufactures should be.

An honest environmentalism won't just take your SUV. They'll take your Prius. They'll control it all and perhaps they'll make sure the candlemakers don't go out of work.

Quote:
There's a still bigger problem here: even if we make provision for some manufacturing but, like Fairlie, envisage a massive downsizing and a return to a land-based economy, how do we take people with us? Where is the public appetite for this transition?

Obviously they don't go with you. They don't continue to exist. You need not worry about the public appetite when the well intentioned fix the problems with bullets and mass graves.

Quote:
But this also raises an awkward question for us greens: why hasn't the global economy collapsed as we predicted? Yes, it wobbled, though largely for other reasons. Now global growth is back with a vengeance: it reached 4.6% last year, and the IMF predicts roughly the same for 2011 and 2012. The reason, as Birol went on to explain, is that natural gas liquids and tar sands are already filling the gap. Not only does the economy appear to be more resistant to resource shocks than we assumed, but the result of those shocks is an increase, not a decline, in environmental destruction.

Global economic collapse THAT WAS HOPED FOR, didn't happen. Turns out those darn capitalists and the masses of people who don't wish to stop existing were more resourceful than we thought.

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All of us in the environment movement, in other words whether we propose accommodation, radical downsizing or collapse are lost. None of us yet has a convincing account of how humanity can get out of this mess. None of our chosen solutions break the atomising, planet-wrecking project. I hope that by laying out the problem I can encourage us to address it more logically, to abandon magical thinking and to recognise the contradictions we confront. But even that could be a tall order.

You think the people will just disappear and that wind, solar and other sources will save the day? (Until lawsuits stop them as well) That thinking is MAGICAL.

This article which reads more like an informal chat between a group in agreement on the broad points and disagreeing on particulars shows that it isn't about carbon indulgences, improvements in efficiency while letting you largely keeping your lifestyle, buying "green" and checking the tire pressure in your car. It is about a radical transformation of society where elites get manufactured goods and the masses get subsistence existence in the name of serving the global warming god.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 69
So what should we do?

You have your own chickens don't you.

Most people (well, a lot anyway) would love to be more self sufficient, ie grow there own fruit and herbs, veg, make jams and all the rest. There are ten year waiting lists here in Edinburgh for allotments so people can grow things.

There's no doubt the worlds resources are being stretched and there's no doubt that people could and often want to do more to use less etc etc. We should be thinking about what we produce and the destruction/ environmental impact it causes.

Countries need to make choices just like people do. SCOTLAND WILL SUPPLY 100% OF IT'S ELECTRICITY FROM RENEWABLES BY 2020, HOW MUCH IN THE US BY THEN, HUH?
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #3 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So what should we do?

You have your own chickens don't you.

I'd like to...but the local government won't let me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Most people (well, a lot anyway) would love to be more self sufficient, ie grow there own fruit and herbs, veg, make jams and all the rest. There are ten year waiting lists here in Edinburgh for allotments so people can grow things.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #4 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'd like to...but the local government won't let me.





I wasn't sure if Americans would know what allotments are hence the brief description. Are there allotments in the US? I don't recall ever having seen any.

Why won't the local government allow you to keep chickens? If it's your property how can they stop you?
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #5 of 69
Watermelons the lot of them.
post #6 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Watermelons the lot of them.

...the lot of them!
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #7 of 69
My wife wants her own chickens.
post #8 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I wasn't sure if Americans would know what allotments are hence the brief description. Are there allotments in the US? I don't recall ever having seen any.

Why won't the local government allow you to keep chickens? If it's your property how can they stop you?

Because there are zoning rules inside of cities that don't allow them. Having to do with noise and such. Also, chickens are dirty and make huge messes. With it being my property they should have no say. But that is part of living in a city. Rules for what you can and cannot have. \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #9 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Why won't the local government allow you to keep chickens? If it's your property how can they stop you?

That's so cute and quaint.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #10 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Also, chickens are dirty and make huge messes.

Which is actually not true (same with the noise issues.) Unfortunately it's misconceptions like this that are preventing lots of people who would like to have a few back yard chickens from doing so.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #11 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Which is actually not true (same with the noise issues.) Unfortunately it's misconceptions like this that are preventing lots of people who would like to have a few back yard chickens from doing so.


I have owned chickens. While the noise is generally not true, except if you own a rooster, the messy part is absolutely true. Unless you have very few of them or rotate them regularly, they will absolutely destroy an area you house them in.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #12 of 69
post #13 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I have owned chickens. While the noise is generally not true, except if you own a rooster, the messy part is absolutely true. Unless you have very few of them or rotate them regularly, they will absolutely destroy an area you house them in.

I obviously cannot comment on your personal experience and don't know how many chickens you owned...but I have visited a few places where they have back yard chickens (maybe a half-dozen at the most) and you couldn't tell from outside the yard that they were even there...from inside (or outside) there was no noticeable or abnormal odor. Things were very well kept and pretty orderly.

Additionally, the reports from a couple of the local towns where they have approved backyard chickens on a trial basis (one town allows up to 6...some rules about the coop...and limit, currently, of only 70-80 "licenses" in the town...all of which are used and there's a waiting list)...after a year they did a report to see how things went. Not a single complaint about noise, order, mess or other nuisance. Not an ironclad bit of evidence...but it's something.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #14 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I obviously cannot comment on your personal experience...but I have visited a few places where they have back yard chickens (maybe a half-dozen at the most) and you couldn't tell from outside the yard that they were even there...from inside (or outside) there was no noticeable or abnormal odor. Things were very well kept and pretty orderly.

People who live in places that don't allow chickens but want them should write to their local authorities. Many are changing the laws to allow them.

My family had chickens several times growing up and there a breeze to take care of, but the cockrels can be fierce!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #15 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

People who live in places that don't allow chickens but want them should write to their local authorities. Many are changing the laws to allow them.

Many are getting the laws changed. It is a strong uphill battle though. Local town governments are sometimes the most difficult to work with...the whole big fish in a small pond mindset of our local overlords. They like their power.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #16 of 69
Chickens???... I want to keep cows in my yard!... They also don't make a mess or smell.
A couple pigs would be nice too (and would do double duty keeping undesirable neighbors from moving in... I hear they don't like swine.)
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #17 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Chickens???... I want to keep cows in my yard!... They also don't make a mess or smell.
A couple pigs would be nice too (and would do double duty keeping undesirable neighbors from moving in... I hear they don't like swine.)

I'm sure you're being sarcastic (and setting up something of a straw man too)...but in all seriousness...if you look into it...backyard chickens isn't a terribly radical idea (and there are actually some really good benefits). I mean it probably is for most of us who are conditioned to the cookie-cutter suburban, covenant-controlled, don't paint your house any color other than this limited range of beige, make sure there are no toys left laying in the yard or the garage door is left open world.

\

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #18 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So what should we do??

If you apply an answer that doesn't work on a larger, more strident and expensive scale, then it will do what.... suddenly work? This is no different than the reason we heard on the stimulus or on crony capitalism. It's too big to fail. We have to do something! Let's apply unworkable and ineffective solutions on a massive scale because of those first two variables. It's insanity. It also compounds the misery.

Quote:
You have your own chickens don't you.

Most people (well, a lot anyway) would love to be more self sufficient, ie grow there own fruit and herbs, veg, make jams and all the rest. There are ten year waiting lists here in Edinburgh for allotments so people can grow things.

I don't think most people would love to be self-sufficient. I think many of them don't mind at all being dependent as long as they have enough money to keep the lights on, a roof over the head, the television transmitting gibberish and can indulge in a vice or two. Likewise most people don't care to try to overcome the economics of scale. For example with backyard chickens, you can beat the price of organic eggs at the supermarket by doing it yourself, but you cannot beat the price of regular XL eggs with no special designation. This is true of almost all gardening and small scale livestock. You can beat often beat the price of organic, but not of regular products with no special considerations or designations.

Quote:
There's no doubt the worlds resources are being stretched and there's no doubt that people could and often want to do more to use less etc etc. We should be thinking about what we produce and the destruction/ environmental impact it causes.

Resources are far from stressed. In the U.S. for example the entire population could fit in the state of Texas and be given a decent size suburban lot. Most of the U.S. is still open spaces. Most fights aren't between interests competing for land for multiple uses but between those who desire to conserve but use the land and those who believe any use at all is harmful. Malthusian predictions have been made for quite a while now and so far have been completely off the mark.

Quote:
Countries need to make choices just like people do. SCOTLAND WILL SUPPLY 100% OF IT'S ELECTRICITY FROM RENEWABLES BY 2020, HOW MUCH IN THE US BY THEN, HUH?

Scottland has made a commitment to do that. It is an attempt, not an actuality. Most targets and actions dictated by Kyoto were basically ignored or failed. As the article above notes, even if they manage to hit the 2020 target for 100% renewables based on 2010 electrical use, it presumes no economic grwoth and no additional electrical generation need. Otherwise you just start the process over again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I wasn't sure if Americans would know what allotments are hence the brief description. Are there allotments in the US? I don't recall ever having seen any.

Why won't the local government allow you to keep chickens? If it's your property how can they stop you?

Zoning restrictions limit what you can do with your own land. As you and others note, small scale shouldn't be any sort of problem but as with most issues the government is the problem while claiming to be the solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Chickens???... I want to keep cows in my yard!... They also don't make a mess or smell.
A couple pigs would be nice too (and would do double duty keeping undesirable neighbors from moving in... I hear they don't like swine.)

Pigs are actually incredibly clean animals for the most part. They don't deserve their rep.

The mess often isn't about the animal but about poop. If we all had outhouses on our properties instead of septic tanks or sewer, you'd be asking the government to ban humans.

However when you look back at solutions before government mandates, it wasn't so bad. The manure can largely be dealt with via composting. Even a fair amount of watering be met by capturing rainwater run off into barrels. You add your greens from meals or your root veggies to the composting and it wasn't a terrible solution.

You can see how small scale farming wasn't a bad deal for most people. You get your milk from a cow. A few chicken eggs for breakfast or dinner. You add in veggies fresh or canned, fruit as canned or preserves, and a fair amount of root veggies to round out the day. Flours and sugars were used but no where on the scale we see now.

Again as with most things, the turn from this sort of diet to the high carb diet has been a result of the government. The government decreed fat was bad and people began replacing protein and meats with bread and carbs. Now, thanks to the government, we have massive obesity and increasing health issues.

I'm sure thse utopian, top down fantasies will work just as well when applied to the environment. I made a post not too long ago where it linked these views to the world portrayed by Ayn Rand in Anthem. The reality is she was dead on. You look at the solutions promoted by environmentalists and those written into the fiction of Rand and they are identical.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I don't think most people would love to be self-sufficient.

Agreed. And there are problems with self-sufficiency. But when you see things unfolding as they are, you start thinking about ways to guard against disruptions. The entire food system is pretty much just-in-time delivery. Wouldn't take much for the supermarket shelves to be empty and most people don't have much more than a few days food in the pantry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Resources are far from stressed. In the U.S. for example the entire population could fit in the state of Texas and be given a decent size suburban lot. Most of the U.S. is still open spaces.

There you go using facts and stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

As you and others note, small scale shouldn't be any sort of problem but as with most issues the government is the problem while claiming to be the solution.

Bingo!


Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Pigs are actually incredibly clean animals for the most part. They don't deserve their rep.

The mess often isn't about the animal but about poop. If we all had outhouses on our properties instead of septic tanks or sewer, you'd be asking the government to ban humans.

However when you look back at solutions before government mandates, it wasn't so bad. The manure can largely be dealt with via composting.

You've nailed it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You can see how small scale farming wasn't a bad deal for most people. You get your milk from a cow. A few chicken eggs for breakfast or dinner. You add in veggies fresh or canned, fruit as canned or preserves, and a fair amount of root veggies to round out the day.

And all much healthier too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Again as with most things, the turn from this sort of diet to the high carb diet has been a result of the government. The government decreed fat was bad and people began replacing protein and meats with bread and carbs. Now, thanks to the government, we have massive obesity and increasing health issues.

Again...BINGO! If you look at what the government has done with corn alone and you'd immediately reject any other ideas they have about meddling into food, agriculture, the economy or the environment.

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post #20 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

An honest environmentalism won't just take your SUV. They'll take your Prius. They'll control it all and perhaps they'll make sure the candlemakers don't go out of work.

Love the veiled reference to Anthem there, trumpt!

Quote:
All of the great modern inventions come from the Home of the Scholars, such as the newest one, which was found only a hundred years ago, of how to make candles from wax and string; also, how to make glass, which is put in our windows to protect us from the rain. To find these things, the Scholars must study the earth and learn from the rivers, from the sands, from the winds and the rocks.

Quote:
We saw nothing as we entered, save the sky in the great windows, blue and glowing. Then we saw the Scholars who sat around a long table; they were as shapeless clouds huddled at the rise of a great sky. There were the men whose famous names we knew, and others from distant lands whose names we had not heard. We saw a great painting on the wall over their heads, of the twenty illustrious men who had invented the candle.

Quote:
"Should it be what they claim of it," said Harmony 9-2642, "then it would bring ruin to the Department of Candles. The Candle is a great boon to mankind, as approved by all men. Therefore it cannot be destroyed by the whim of one."

"This would wreck the plans of the World Council," said Unanimity 2-9913, "and without the Plans of the World Council the sun cannot rise. It took fifty years to secure the approval of all the Councils for the Candle, and to decide upon the number needed, and to re-fit the Plans so as to make candles instead of torches. This touched upon thousands and thousands of men working in scores of States. We cannot alter the Plans again so soon."

"And if this should lighten the toil of men," said Similarity 5-0306, "then it is a great evil, for men have no cause to exist save in toiling for other men."

I need to read Anthem again. I seem to be reading it at least once per quarter.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #21 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Love the veiled reference to Anthem there, trumpt!


I need to read Anthem again. I seem to be reading it at least once per quarter.

You do realize that Ayn's worldview and the teachings of Jesus are mutually exclusive, right?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #22 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You do realize that Ayn's worldview and the teachings of Jesus are mutually exclusive, right?

Thanks, BR. I needed that.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #23 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You do realize that Ayn's worldview and the teachings of Jesus are mutually exclusive, right?

She believed in fucking everything in sight and the Tea Party love her. She took government handouts too. There are minorities in America she makes look hard working.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #24 of 69
A favorite talking point of the anti-Rand statists.

I'll let Ayn speak for herself on this one:

Quote:
It is obvious, in such cases, that a man receives his own money which was taken from him by force, directly and specifically, without his consent, against his own choice. Those who advocated such laws are morally guilty, since they assumed the “right” to force employers and unwilling co-workers. But the victims, who opposed such laws, have a clear right to any refund of their own money—and they would not advance the cause of freedom if they left their money, unclaimed, for the benefit of the welfare-state administration.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #25 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Pigs are actually incredibly clean animals for the most part. They don't deserve their rep.

Holy crap!!... do you actually BELIEVE that ???

Yes, a pig or two could be kept as a pet in a clean environment. Raising pigs as food, however, is nowhere NEAR clean. They are messier by far than both cows and chickens... and don't let anyone tell you raising chickens in a confined area is clean either... they make a horrendous mess.

... while there is no livestock on it anymore, I now own the farmland on which I gained this insight.

If my neighbor (currently living in a cookie-cutter suburban neighborhood) brought in chickens, I'd have my kids go to town on 'em with the BB gun ! ... there's a REASON they're not allowed within the city limits!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #26 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

and don't let anyone tell you raising chickens in a confined area is clean either... they make a horrendous mess.

And yet more ignorance...


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

If my neighbor (currently living in a cookie-cutter suburban neighborhood) brought in chickens, I'd have my kids go to town on 'em with the BB gun !

...and disrespect for people's property.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #27 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And yet more ignorance...




...and disrespect for people's property.

Not ignorance, but yes, disrespect for others property.

I have raised both Chickens and pigs. They were both very dirty. The pigs were 10x as nasty as the chickens for messiness. Unless you raise them as pets and keep them clean and not penned up they will destroy the area they are in very quickly and it will simply devolve from there. I don't know anyone with the time required to keep up with the mess involved.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #28 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Not ignorance...

Apparently there is though...


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I have raised both Chickens and pigs. They were both very dirty.

As I said before I cannot comment on your specific experience. You've not provided enough detail to know whether we're talking past one another or not. I have seen...with my own eyes...well kept backyard chicken situations...half dozen chickens (one also had dwarf goats)...and the situation was just fine. I also know of situations where there were "rogue" (illegal) backyard chickens in very close neighborhood situations that went undetected for years. This indicates it's possible. This also tells me that categorical statements of the impossibility are based on some degree of ignorance (lack of knowledge or experience). Note that I'm not claiming it's easy or that all chicken situations can be well managed. I don't have any idea about that. But I have seen some small ones that are well managed and maintained.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #29 of 69
How's it disrespectful of other's property if I were pelting chickens that were not supposed to be there in the first place?

Now... maybe half a dozen chickens in a decent sized yard? ... Yeah, you could keep that fairly clean... but those are PETS, not food. You can't eat yard-bird very often if you only have 6 of them (and no roosters.)
To keep enough chickens that you can actually EAT them frequently, you're gonna have a mess... there's no way around that. It's not ignorance, it's experience.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #30 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

How's it disrespectful of other's property if I were pelting chickens that were not supposed to be there in the first place?

Destroying someone else's property is disrespectful to say the least.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Now... maybe half a dozen chickens in a decent sized yard? ... Yeah, you could keep that fairly clean...

Now we're getting somewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

but those are PETS, not food. You can't eat chicken very often if you only have 6 of them (and no roosters.) To keep enough chickens that you can actually EAT them frequently, you're gonna have a mess... there's no way around that.

Chickens also lays eggs in case you hadn't heard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

It's not ignorance, it's experience.

Apparently not.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #31 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Love the veiled reference to Anthem there, trumpt!

How could one not think of it when it represents so purely what is advocated as a "solution" by environmentalists.

Quote:
I need to read Anthem again. I seem to be reading it at least once per quarter.

I end up reading it occasionally as a e-book. It's such a quick read so why not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

She believed in fucking everything in sight and the Tea Party love her. She took government handouts too. There are minorities in America she makes look hard working.

I wasn't aware one could slur while typing. I'll have a double of what he's having and give him another one on me.

So no one appears concerned that environmentalists think the real solution is basically massive authoritarian government, killing off about 4 billion humans and having the remaining humans go back to subsistence farming as their "solution."

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #32 of 69
I suggest people read the history of Pittsburgh, visit Dongguan in China, run a few laps in San Bernardino in June, drink a big swig of water from the Thames, and tell me the 'solution' is to just let market forces work.
post #33 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Thanks, BR. I needed that.

You tell me. What if Jesus acted like John Galt? What if Jesus said, fuck humanity, it's not worth saving? What if Jesus just went into hiding and didn't give his wisdom to the masses? That would totally change the Christian Mythology now, wouldn't it?

Jesus wasn't a selfish asshole. He would have been sickened by the idea of "rational self-interest."

The two worldviews DO NOT MESH. That feeling you just had as you quickly brushed aside the idea through your pithy smart-ass response is what we call "cognitive dissonance." I know it makes you uncomfortable to try to reconcile Jesus with John Galt. But the two literary figures could not be further from one another in thought and deed.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #34 of 69
Oh snap.

Quote:
Romans 13:6-7 (New International Version, ©2011)

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #35 of 69
Well, it's good to see that it's not just some Christians who misunderstand and misuse Romans 13.

And...who quote scripture out of context and use it as a weapon to get other people to do what they want them to do.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #36 of 69
WWJGD? Not save humanity.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #37 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, it's good to see that it's not just some Christians who misunderstand and misuse Romans 13.

And...who quote scripture out of context and use it as a weapon to get other people to do what they want them to do.

Indeed. Even people who claim the Bible is complete fiction will try to use it to prove their point.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #38 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I suggest people read the history of Pittsburgh, visit Dongguan in China, run a few laps in San Bernardino in June, drink a big swig of water from the Thames, and tell me the 'solution' is to just let market forces work.

The organization which most adheres to the notion of "markets forces", is the MAFIA.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #39 of 69
Where do you come up with this stuff, BR? Seriously, it looks like a shameless attempt at trolling.

You know I am Christian. So when I say I like Anthem by Ayn Rand you start trying to compare Jesus Christ with John Galt?

I mean, it's so absurd on so many levels.

Have you read Anthem? You do know that John Galt appears nowhere in that work, right?

Are you even interested in why I like Anthem? Are you even interested in what I get out of the works of Ayn Rand and how I reconcile that with my Christian beliefs? Apparently not, otherwise you would have asked me.

Alright, you got me to respond. Mission accomplished.

Carry on.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #40 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Destroying someone else's property is disrespectful to say the least.

Agreed.

Quote:
Now we're getting somewhere.

That is a qualifier. The number of chickens and the size of the yard or area they are in. The issue with having them in the open is they are escape prone, even if you clip their wings. Neighborhood cats and dogs also love to have a heyday with them.

Quote:
Chickens also lays eggs in case you hadn't heard.

In order to continue to get good eggs out of chickens it is recommended to have a rooster. Oops, there goes the noise problem...

Quote:
Apparently not.

You strident claims do not bolster your position. Nobody is claiming they CANNOT be done. I think you are arguing with a caricature here.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
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