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Libertarianism

post #1 of 735
Thread Starter 
I'm really getting into libertarianism and the philosophies and schools of thought commonly associated with it: anarcho-capitalism, minarchism, voluntaryism, agorism, classical liberalism, objectivism, anti-statism, etc., etc.

I think it would be beneficial (at least to me) to have a thread dedicated to discussing these topics, as they are relatively new to me and I am fascinated the more I learn.

Please feel free to post comments, questions, links, etc. - anything relating to libertarianism.

I'll kick things off with a question:

Can someone be a minarchist and a voluntaryist at the same time?

Assuming both ideologies maintain the common libertarian tenets of the non-aggression principle and property rights, I think the main difference between the two is how they believe these should be enforced or maintained.

As I understand it:

Minarchists believe government is a "necessary evil" and that its sole responsibilities are to protect the people from agression, uphold property rights, and resolve disputes. They believe in some form of centralized government, albeit extremely limited in power and scope.

Voluntaryists believe government is an "unnecessary evil" and that the free market can defend life and property and resolve disputes much better and more efficiently than government can. They believe in anarchy - stateless society.

So...are the two ideas mutually exclusive?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Can someone be a minarchist and a voluntaryist at the same time?

Speaking as someone who waffles between total anarchism and what is called "minarchism" and supports the idea of voluntaryism...I think "minarchism" and "voluntaryism" are compatible.

Keep in mind that these are all terms that have some gray-ness around the edges.

To me "minarchism" means having the smallest state you can to keep society civilized. Some will argue what we have isn't yet big enough that. I would refine my statement to say that a minarchist state is that state which confines its actions and duties to the protections of people's basic rights of life, liberty and property.

Volunteerism is simply about saying that everything else (which some feel must be regulated and coerced by the state) can and should be left to voluntary arrangements among consenting adults.

In this day these are radical ("extremist") ideas and considered impractical by some I guess.

Be that as it may, striving toward more voluntary arrangements and away from coercive one's is a worthwhile goal. If this is done consistently and with passion and vigor...and successfully...you are likely to have some state...but it would be minimal...or minarchist.

But many seem to feel that people volunteer by force better...so I think we're a long way from that. \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But many seem to feel that people volunteer by force better...so I think we're a long way from that. \

Sadly, many don't see the obvious contradiction, there! How can anything be voluntary that is done under threat of violence?

Democracy is 51% of the people telling 49% of the people what to do and using the government to force them to do it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #4 of 735
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #5 of 735
I wish you would spend more time really getting into what Jesus taught instead of this nonsense from the Great Deceiver. You are exercising your moral agency poorly by shirking your responsibilities to your fellow man and falling for Satan's tricks.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #6 of 735
Oh joy...BR has decided to urinate on another thread.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #7 of 735
But I piss flowers, rainbows, and butterflies. You should be begging for me to spare you a few mL*.






*Note the use of the evil metric system.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #8 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

An interesting debate between Voluntaryists and Democratic Socialists:


Part 8

At 1.43 mins to 1.53 mins Joey Hill claims that the government regulations on pollution cause the pollution problems. It's hard not to confer from that that he thinks all the pollution would be prevented by property rights being enforced. Whether he's too idealistic or just too angry is hard to tell. Maybe a mixture of both?
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #9 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

At 1.43 mins to 1.53 mins Joey Hill claims that the government regulations on pollution cause the pollution problems. It's hard not to confer from that that he thinks all the pollution would be prevented by property rights being enforced. Whether he's too idealistic or just too angry is hard to tell. Maybe a mixture of both?

I haven't watched the videos, but the fact is that where you find pollution problems you almost invariably have a situation where there are not (possibly because of practical limitations in doing so) clearly defined, delineated and protected property rights.

The reasoning offered like that is that where you have property rights someone's pollution into your property is considered a violation of of your rights (essentially trespass or destruction and damage to your property) that can be adjudicated and compensated for through a proper legal/court system.

We also know that when people own something they tend to care for it much better than when they have use of something without ownership.

Where you lack such property rights, you effectively have no owners and a tragedy of the commons situation ensues.

We actually have plenty of examples of these.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #10 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I haven't watched the videos, but the fact is that where you find pollution problems you almost invariably have a situation where there are not (possibly because of practical limitations in doing so) clearly defined, delineated and protected property rights.

The reasoning offered like that is that where you have property rights someone's pollution into your property is considered a violation of of your rights (essentially trespass or destruction and damage to your property) that can be adjudicated and compensated for through a proper legal/court system.

We also know that when people own something they tend to care for it much better than when they have use of something without ownership.

Where you lack such property rights, you effectively have no owners and a tragedy of the commons situation ensues.

We actually have plenty of examples of these.

So who owns the river you dump your toxic effluent and sewage into without Government regulation? Again, look at the history of the Ohio River for an example. As regulations increased, so did the river's cleanliness. It certainly wasn't through the voluntary efforts of the private sector that these improvements were made.
post #11 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I wish you would spend more time really getting into what Jesus taught instead of this nonsense from the Great Deceiver. You are exercising your moral agency poorly by shirking your responsibilities to your fellow man and falling for Satan's tricks.

Thanks, BR. Carry on.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #12 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So who owns the river you dump your toxic effluent and sewage into without Government regulation? Again, look at the history of the Ohio River for an example. As regulations increased, so did the river's cleanliness. It certainly wasn't through the voluntary efforts of the private sector that these improvements were made.

Because the private sector didn't own the river.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #13 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Because the private sector didn't own the river.

And now it's time for our kindergarten class to read Thee Billy Goats Gruff... and get a clue.
post #14 of 735
Thread Starter 
How can democratic socialists bemoan corporate monopolies while encouraging government monopolies?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #15 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Because the private sector didn't own the river.

So what you are saying is the private sector has no problem shitting on things that aren't theirs. How lovely. And this is what you want to have LESS regulation?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #16 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

How can democratic socialists bemoan corporate monopolies while encouraging government monopolies?

Profit motive, for one. Some industries should not be for profit. The acquisition of wealth should not be the chief goal of every enterprise.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #17 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Profit motive, for one. Some industries should not be for profit. The acquisition of wealth should not be the chief goal of every enterprise.

Private industry cannot obtain revenue by force. Only the government can do that.

If a private business provides goods or services you don't want, then you don't buy their goods or services.

The government forces you at the end of a gun to pay for goods and services you may not even want or use.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #18 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So what you are saying is the private sector has no problem shitting on things that aren't theirs. How lovely. And this is what you want to have LESS regulation?

If you want to know what I'm saying, just ask. Give it a try.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #19 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Private industry cannot obtain revenue by force. Only the government can do that.

If a private business provides goods or services you don't want, then you don't buy their goods or services.

The government forces you at the end of a gun to pay for goods and services you may not even want or use.

Hyperbole and a half.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #20 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If you want to know what I'm saying, just ask. Give it a try.

You claim that because the corporations did not own the river, they polluted it. That seems rather fucking...
  • Sketchy
  • Far-fetched
  • Stupid
  • Naive
  • Retarded
  • Wrong

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #21 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You claim that because the corporations did not own the river, they polluted it. That seems rather fucking...
  • Sketchy
  • Far-fetched
  • Stupid
  • Naive
  • Retarded
  • Wrong

A valiant effort, but you FAILED.

Try again. Just ask. You can do it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #22 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Hyperbole and a half.

Tell me how McDonald's forces Big Macs down your throat at gunpoint.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #23 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

How can democratic socialists bemoan corporate monopolies while encouraging government monopolies?

Because governments won't charge people for crossing a street or for breathing air that just happens to belong to them. Remember the guy whose house burned down because the Fire Services Department didn't cover his area unless he paid an extra fee?

Imagine if every Fire Department were like that.

Imagine if every Police department were like that.

Imagine if every street in every town required payment to access.

Imagine if you had to pay to walk down the sidewalk in front of your house because somebody else owned it.

Now, we have water bills, electricity bills gas bills...

Oh, sorry, Frank, I can't go to your house. I didn't pay the road access fee in your part of town. Sorry, I can't go to the park because I don't have any spare change on me today. Sorry, I can't talk to you now. The Trump Industries Police Officers are here. The neighbors can smell the curry I'm cooking in the kitchen, and they called TIPO to complain against me for invading their airspace with the fragrance.

I own an airline, but I can't fly anywhere. Aircorp, the corporation who owns the airspace between Los Angeles and Las Vegas just doubled the fee, and only the mega-Airlines can afford to pay, because Aircorp gives them a discount.
post #24 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Tell me how McDonald's forces Big Macs down your throat at gunpoint.

Taking advantage of stupid people and poor people with marketing is pretty much the same thing.
post #25 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Private industry cannot obtain revenue by force. Only the government can do that.

If a private business provides goods or services you don't want, then you don't buy their goods or services.

The government forces you at the end of a gun to pay for goods and services you may not even want or use.

One company owns the roads to the North, South, East and West of my home. They charge $1 a day for the right to cross.
post #26 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

How can democratic socialists bemoan corporate monopolies while encouraging government monopolies?

There's no government monopoly. A private industry has every right to buy land from the government and build a road. If the terms are acceptable to the Government and other owners of the land, they will sell.

A private enterprise can already buy beaches, streams, islands... build private parks... what do you want? You want to be able to buy airspace? Then what? you're going to sue GM for polluting your airspace because their cars don't have clean enough emissions?
post #27 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Tell me how McDonald's forces Big Macs down your throat at gunpoint.

Isn't that what your god does?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #28 of 735
Who do you sue when acid rain destroys the paint on your house and kills the trees in your orchard?
post #29 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

One company owns the roads to the North, South, East and West of my home. They charge $1 a day for the right to cross.

The government charges you quite a bit for the roads, and you have no choice but to pay.

The government charges you quite a bit for Social Security. Whether you use it or not, you have to pay.

The government charges you for the public schools. If you have kids or not, you have to pay.

The government charges you to use your telephone. You have no choice but to pay.

The government charges you to wire last mile locations to the internet, you have no coilce but to pay.

The government charges you for military protection, you have no choice but to pay.

The government charges you for many many things. Some great, some not so great, and you have no choice but to pay. Unless you leave. I am sure ther are many other things that the government charges for that you have no choice to pay for that are more ridiculous than I have posted here. If that were a private business, you would call it monopoly. Since it is government you call it ???
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #30 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Isn't that what your god does?


Nope. But that is what some believe.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #31 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Who do you sue when acid rain destroys the paint on your house and kills the trees in your orchard?

The same people I can sue now. Nobody. \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #32 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Nope. But that is what some believe.

So I'm heaven-bound having rejected Jesus and the Bible, correct?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #33 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The government charges you quite a bit for the roads, and you have no choice but to pay.

The government charges you quite a bit for Social Security. Whether you use it or not, you have to pay.

The government charges you for the public schools. If you have kids or not, you have to pay.

The government charges you to use your telephone. You have no choice but to pay.

The government charges you to wire last mile locations to the internet, you have no coilce but to pay.

The government charges you for military protection, you have no choice but to pay.

The government charges you for many many things. Some great, some not so great, and you have no choice but to pay. Unless you leave. I am sure ther are many other things that the government charges for that you have no choice to pay for that are more ridiculous than I have posted here. If that were a private business, you would call it monopoly. Since it is government you call it ???

So, what's your answer to poor people getting sick and needing care they can't afford?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #34 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So I'm heaven-bound having rejected Jesus and the Bible, correct?

That is between and God. The bible is not salvation. It is just the method of relaying information to you. My signature tells you what I believe about the second part. The actual answer is, I don't get to decide that, and I will not decide that here or ever.

You make whatever decision you make, and when all is said and done, the results will be what they are.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #35 of 735
But you believe I can't get to heaven without believing, so you are trying to say I'm going to hell without actually saying it. Plausible deniability and all.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #36 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, what's your answer to poor people getting sick and needing care they can't afford?

God will take care of the problem. Barring that, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates might choose to help a little.
post #37 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The same people I can sue now. Nobody. \

Exactly. Which is why we need elected officials deciding how to regulate emissions. If they don't do their job well enough, we elect someone else.

Without regulations, you get rivers of sludge, sewage and poison, like the Ohio in 1950.

MJ says private ownership of the river would solve that. I guess he means that the owner of the river could sue the polluter... assuming the polluter can be determined (I'd love to see an explanation about how that works).

Without regulations, you get acid rain.

I guess MJ's solution means someone should own the air?

So... I ask... the owner of the air... who do they sue when their air is polluted from the outside? And... what if the owner of the air doesn't care about the pollution? All they want is profit from airspace rights licensed to the transport industry. Should there be an owner of the rain? If the rain falls on my orchard, I guess that makes me the owner. So who do I sue? The owner of the air for allowing it to pollute the rain? The polluter? Again, how the fuck am I, as an apple grower, going to determine that!?
post #38 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, what's your answer to poor people getting sick and needing care they can't afford?

And we come back to the issue. Health care is too expensive. I don't know the answer, but i do know that an MRI should not cost what it does. A Tylenol in the hospital should not be what it costs. And more. For along time people could get health care for much less. Now, it is harder. I have recently traded computer support time for health care with a local doctor after reading of others doing it here on these forums. I don't need the free care, but my mother did. I bartered for it because I could not afford to pay for it for her and she needed the visit. Not everyone can do that, but I believe that there are doctors that are willing to work with people that need help. You have to ask though. I was sure the answer would be no. And it was not. It is a start.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #39 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But you believe I can't get to heaven without believing, so you are trying to say I'm going to hell without actually saying it. Plausible deniability and all.

Does it matter what I believe? Will that change your life one iota?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #40 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Exactly. Which is why we need elected officials deciding how to regulate emissions. If they don't do their job well enough, we elect someone else.

There are places where government makes sense. The argument you were making earlier was beyond that.

You edited after i quoted, All i would add is, it was Jazzguru who talked about owning the river not MJ.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
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