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Libertarianism - Page 6

post #201 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Please elaborate.

I was lucky to have been born in the USA and I stand by my nation. I stand by the principle it was founded under, which was a principle based on the idea that government and governance are constantly evolving and changing entities. I am proud to support those more needy than I, even if it may be in ways I don't approve of, as I know that because of this system, those things I disagree with may eventually change. Even if those changes don't come in my lifetime, the future generations of American Citizens will prosper, not because of how things are right now, but because the system is self-correcting. So I stand up and accept this social contract, proudly, willingly, and with respect.
post #202 of 735
Thread Starter 
Thank you for elaborating, tonton.

I also count myself blessed to have been born in the USA.

But I do not believe it is "greedy" or "immoral" to reject the idea of a "social contract" as a pretext for infringing upon the unalienable rights of the individual.

I agree with the idea of a "social contract" as set forth in the Declaration of Independence. But I also believe that any good contract must be agreed upon by all parties involved, and the moment you remove consent from the equation it is not a contract at all.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #203 of 735
I hope jazz, at least, will read read this. I generally avoid The HuffPo (where the article is from) these days, but they still sometimes take a nice bite out of the wishful Utopian, but crucially, ignorant ideals that have held people back, and worse, for so long-


"In this series of of articles, HuffPost is taking a close look at the charitable giving of Republican presidential candidates. How much and to whom did they give? How does their giving compare with their fellow Americans? And what impact did they ultimately have?

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) looked slightly out of place at a black tie dinner last December, as he accepted a Lifetime Achievement Award at the National Charity Awards. Dressed in a bolo tuxedo and accompanied by his wife, Carol, the presidential hopeful barely mentioned charity in his speech to the group, choosing to focus on two favorite topics: the unconstitutionality of high taxes and the abuses of the Federal Reserve Bank. Nearing the end, he summed up his view of charity in one deceptively simple sentence. "We should take care of ourselves and our families, and for those who need special help, a generous society [is the answer]," he said.

This "generous society" forms a pillar of Paul's libertarian vision of a nation with radically limited government. If Paul were to get his way, he would abolish Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, and in their place, he believes private, donor-funded charities would step in to voluntarily assume the responsibilities of America's three biggest social safety nets -- programs that cost the federal government $440 billion in 2008.

More than perhaps any other presidential candidate, Paul believes that private philanthropy is capable of providing assistance on par with what the federal government provides today, Of course, certain conditions need to be met before private donors will step into these roles. Chief among them, Paul said in 2003 on the House floor, is that the federal government must free the American people "from the excessive tax burden, so they can devote more of their resources to charity."

In Paul's opinion, high taxes and inflation deprive Americans of money that they would otherwise give to charity. Programs like Medicare, he says, brought about the demise of "voluntary charities and organizations, such as friendly societies, that devoted themselves to helping those in need" during the early 20th century. These civic groups, he claims, "flourished in the days before the welfare state turned charity into a government function."

But according to Dr. Leslie Lenkowsky of Indiana University's Center on Philanthropy, data on decades of American philanthropy squarely contradicts Paul's opinion. "All things being equal, Americans today give more than twice as much of our GDP to charity than they did in 1930," he told The Huffington Post. "And Mr. Paul's notion that private donors could ever wholly replace government social welfare programs? Well, it's a fantasy."

Lenkowsky served in three presidential administrations, most recently that of George W. Bush, where he was CEO of the Corporation for National and Community Service. "No one, not even Herbert Hoover, ever seriously advocated for the idea that government has no role to play in providing social services," he added.

Like much of his economic libertarianism, Paul's theory on charity relies on proving a negative, namely that if only the government would cease to aid the poor, then private philanthropy could finally achieve its full potential -- something that's never been proven in the real world. A spokesman for Paul declined to respond to questions from HuffPost.

Theory Vs. Practice

Despite the gaps in Paul's theories, on an individual scale, the lawmaker appears to practice what he preaches. An obstetrician by trade, Paul frequently reminds voters that he refused to accept government-issued Medicare or Medicaid payments from patients during his time in private practice. Instead, he chose to offer services at reduced prices for those struggling to pay -- implying that in a society free of subsidized healthcare, more doctors would do as he did.

Paul also opposes funding the Federal Emergency Management Agency, arguing that citizens were better off before in disasters before the agency was created. Last month, he inexplicably cited 1900 as a model year for disaster relief. That year, more than 6,000 people died as a result of hurricanes in his own state of Texas.

Like the candidate himself, Paul's intensely loyal supporters occasionally band together to offer an example of how individuals can improve their communities. This June, a group called "Charity for Liberty" organized two days of community-based charity activities via Facebook. The group wrote, "Liberty loving supporters of Ron Paul are organizing to spend a weekend doing charitable outreach -- not to promote Ron Paul or his candidacy, but to show that individuals through voluntary action don't have to wait for political solutions, but that they are the solution."

The site also encouraged volunteers to "Go wearing a Ron Paul t-shirt or hat, but don't bring up the election unless asked and focus on being the change us liberty lovers are advocating for."

The group's organizer, Alex Merced, declined to respond to an email about the events, but 29 people had signed up for the Facebook page.

Limits of Generosity

But there are limits to how far Paul's concept of citizen responsibility can be applied to the real world. A striking example is the case of Paul's own longtime fundraising guru, Kent Snyder, who died of pneumonia this past July. The case of pneumonia resulted from a pre-existing condition that excluded him from access to private health insurance. As a result, Snyder, 49, died owing more than $400,000 in unpaid hospital bills.

During a Sept. 13 Republican debate, Paul said that private charities and religious groups should provide medical care for the uninsured -- a strategy which been labeled unrealistic by both liberals and conservatives .

Does Paul really think that private charities could have taken care of the costs of treating a patient like Snyder? "Not today," Paul told CNN after the debate. The reason, Paul believes, is that "government has run up the cost" of healthcare so much that it is artificially unaffordable. The elimination of Medicare and Medicaid, he claims, would drive down prices.

Fundamentally, Paul believes healthcare is a consumer good, which should be available to those who can afford to buy it. This view differs sharply from President Obama's belief that healthcare is the right of every American citizen.

A campaign spokesman said Paul made a personal donation to help with Snyder's bills, part of a grand total of approximately $32,000 raised by Snyder's friends and colleagues to help offset the costs of his care. Snyder's mother will be responsible for the remainder -- approximately $368,000.

If friends can't make up the costs of medical care, Paul said at the Sept. 13 debate that "our churches" used to assist with medical care for the uninsured. HuffPost blogger Dr. Bob Crittenden asked the General Secretary James Winkler of the Society of the United Methodist Church whether his 33,000 congregations could fill the gap for their uninsured members' healthcare. Winkler answered with a resounding no. "A great many of these churches struggle simply to pay the health care premiums of the pastor," he said. "It is inconceivable that local churches in the United States could possibly cover the medical expenses of the uninsured. They do not do so now and could not do so if the Medicare program were terminated."

As Dr. Lenkowsky put it, "Paul's theory misreads the nature of American philanthropy. And the facts just don't back it up."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_983721.html

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #204 of 735
Thread Starter 
The Case for Radical Idealism

An excellent essay, but this part in particular stood out to me:

Quote:
While it is vital for the libertarian to hold his ultimate and "extreme" ideal aloft, this does not, contrary to Hayek, make him a "utopian." The true utopian is one who advocates a system that is contrary to the natural law of human beings and of the real world. A utopian system is one that could not work even if everyone were persuaded to try to put it into practice. The utopian system could not work, i.e., could not sustain itself in operation. The utopian goal of the left: communism—the abolition of specialization and the adoption of uniformity—could not work even if everyone were willing to adopt it immediately. It could not work because it violates the very nature of man and the world, especially the uniqueness and individuality of every person, of his abilities and interests, and because it would mean a drastic decline in the production of wealth, so much so as to doom the great bulk of the human race to rapid starvation and extinction.

In short, the term "utopian" in popular parlance confuses two kinds of obstacles in the path of a program radically different from the status quo. One is that it violates the nature of man and of the world and therefore could not work once it was put into effect. This is the utopianism of communism. The second is the difficulty in convincing enough people that the program should be adopted. The former is a bad theory because it violates the nature of man; the latter is simply a problem of human will, of convincing enough people of the rightness of the doctrine. "Utopian" in its common pejorative sense applies only to the former.

In the deepest sense, then, the libertarian doctrine is not utopian but eminently realistic, because it is the only theory that is really consistent with the nature of man and the world. The libertarian does not deny the variety and diversity of man, he glories in it and seeks to give that diversity full expression in a world of complete freedom. And in doing so, he also brings about an enormous increase in productivity and in the living standards of everyone, an eminently "practical" result generally scorned by true utopians as evil "materialism."

The libertarian is also eminently realistic because he alone understands fully the nature of the State and its thrust for power. In contrast, it is the seemingly far more realistic conservative believer in "limited government" who is the truly impractical utopian. This conservative keeps repeating the litany that the central government should be severely limited by a constitution. Yet, at the same time that he rails against the corruption of the original Constitution and the widening of federal power since 1789, the conservative fails to draw the proper lesson from that degeneration.

The idea of a strictly limited constitutional State was a noble experiment that failed, even under the most favorable and propitious circumstances. If it failed then, why should a similar experiment fare any better now? No, it is the conservative laissez-fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, "Limit yourself"; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #205 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The Case for Radical Idealism

An excellent essay, but this part in particular stood out to me:

Short summary: when you don't like a term correctly being attributed to you, redefine the term.
post #206 of 735
Thread Starter 
Argumentum ad Somalium

Quote:
[Warning: this talking point contains references to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany. This means that many will completely shut their minds off upon hearing those references, so use with caution.]

Those who have put in time promoting a stateless society have likely encountered what has come to be known as argumentum ad Somalium. It sounds like, “Hey, if you hate government so much, just move to Somalia.” It is implied that, since Somalia has been without a centralized State since 1991 and since economic conditions there are poor compared to our own and since statelessness obviously caused said poverty and no other factors could possibly have contributed and things were so much better when they had their disgustingly corrupt State — it is implied that you should go reap what your philosophy supposedly sews and leave the place the local State claims control over. If you stay, you consent to be governed.

A great reply to this, courtesy of a Redditor, is that Hitler was appointed Chancellor by a democratically elected President in a Constitutional Republic. The laws and programs persecuting, deporting and eventually slaughtering Jews were all perfectly legal. If the Jews didn’t like it, they could leave Germany. By remaining, the Jews consented to being persecuted and killed. Therefore, the German government was not to blame. It was the Jews’ own fault.

Those who champion the “social contract” often do so with their own nation in mind and not the myriad other authoritarian dictatorships extant today, not to mention those throughout bloody history.

After replying with the above comparison, I like to continue, “You can see how absurd that is when you apply it universally. Now, would you like to engage in a conversation with me and address my assertion that the State is illegitimate, or are you just going to dismiss the whole matter by telling me to move?”

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #207 of 735
Saw this and thought of you Jazz.

Quite a well-spoken non-spokesperson for the cause.

BTW my friend's sister lives and works in Vegas and he frequents the restaurant she works at often. He's apparently profoundly nice, his wife is terribly rude and he tips very well to make up for her.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #208 of 735
Thread Starter 
Great stuff, trumpt. The beauty of libertarianism is that it can bring people like Penn - an outspoken atheist - and me - an active Mormon - together. Once you embrace the non-aggression principle it opens up an entire world of possibilities.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #209 of 735
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #210 of 735
Thread Starter 
“It is easy to be conspicuously ‘compassionate’ if others are being forced to pay the cost.” -- Murray Rothbard

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #211 of 735
I have numerous problems with that essay, Jazz.

Quote:
In the deepest sense, then, the libertarian doctrine is not utopian but eminently realistic, because it is the only theory that is really consistent with the nature of man and the world.

This seems to be more an argument for anarchy than libertarianism. Of course, that's unrealistic.

Quote:
. Yet, at the same time that he rails against the corruption of the original Constitution and the widening of federal power since 1789, the conservative fails to draw the proper lesson from that degeneration.

That's because he believes the Constitution, if followed, enables freedom. He rails against those who don't follow it. That doesn't mean the system is the problem, but rather the people that have failed at implementing it.

Quote:
The idea of a strictly limited constitutional State was a noble experiment that failed, even under the most favorable and propitious circumstances. If it failed then, why should a similar experiment fare any better now?


What is the alternative? Anarchy? No government at all? Constitutional Republics might suck, but they suck less than all the rest.

Quote:

No, it is the conservative laissez-fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, "Limit yourself"; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian.

The entire point of the Constitution and the message of constitutional conservatives was to limit federal power. There were those that wanted a much stronger federal government. And the analogy on guns is pretty ironic given the 2nd amendment of <cough> the Constitution.
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post #212 of 735
Thread Starter 
A society based on cooperative and voluntary association absent of government coercion is not unrealistic.

Anarchy in and of itself does not have to be chaos and lawlessness.

What is unrealistic is to grant the government a monopoly on violence and then expect it to exercise restraint and morality in its employment.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #213 of 735
[QUOTE=jazzguru;1999650]A society based on cooperative and voluntary association absent of government coercion is not unrealistic.[/quote[

In its purest form, yes, it is.

Quote:

Anarchy in and of itself does not have to be chaos and lawlessness.

Yes, it does.

Quote:

What is unrealistic is to grant the government a monopoly on violence and then expect it to exercise restraint and morality in its employment.

A monopoly on violence. Good lord.
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post #214 of 735
Penn Jillette interview at Reason.com

He makes some great points.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #215 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Penn Jillette interview at Reason.com

He makes some great points.

post #216 of 735
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #217 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

[isomewhat retarded cartoon]

But miraculously, all the bad people completely disappear when there's no government!

Yes. Bad people can only have their way by getting into government.

Take away government and suddenly the bad people won't know what to do!

They'll just join the corporations and the private police and... work as janitors or something.
post #218 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

But miraculously, all the bad people completely disappear when there's no government!

Yes. Bad people can only have their way by getting into government.

Take away government and suddenly the bad people won't know what to do!

They'll just join the corporations and the private police and... work as janitors or something.

Surely they won't do any harm there with no collective entity designed to stop them.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #219 of 735
And furthermore, governments don't simply exist to "stop bad people."

They do things like replace the bulbs in street lights, and fix pavements, and run the coast guard, and whatnot. Stop rich people building an open cast mine in your grandmother's garden. Cigarette companies marketing Camel Teddybears on the school premises.

Stupid evil shit like that.
post #220 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Surely they won't do any harm there with no collective entity designed to stop them.

Nope. They'll completely be at a loss.

"What will we do now that large-scale democratic civic structures have been abolished?" they'll ask each other.

"I'm going to get a job in a mine," says one bad person. "I'm going to join my children in the arms factory", says his bad friend.

"Ah, things were so much easier when we had to raise all that money and run for elected office."
post #221 of 735
Thread Starter 
“I am supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want. I have my standards, but I shouldn’t [be able] to impose my standards on others. Others have their standards and they have no right to impose their standards on me. Just get the government out of it. It’s one area where [government involvement] is totally unnecessary.” — Ron Paul on marriage

I agree 100% with this, as it is consistent with libertarianism and voluntaryism.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #222 of 735
How will the legal recognition work with regard to hospitals, et cetera?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #223 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

And furthermore, governments don't simply exist to "stop bad people."

They do things like replace the bulbs in street lights, and fix pavements, and run the coast guard, and whatnot. Stop rich people building an open cast mine in your grandmother's garden. Cigarette companies marketing Camel Teddybears on the school premises.

Stupid evil shit like that.

So without government, people would sit in the dark. They would drive into potholes. There would be no concept of property or property rights. Everything would be complete shit and everyone would sit around passively and miserable.

I just don't see it happening.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #224 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So without government, people would sit in the dark. They would drive into potholes. There would be no concept of property or property rights. Everything would be complete shit and everyone would sit around passively and miserable.

I just don't see it happening.

What the fuck are you talking about.
post #225 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

What the fuck are you talking about.

I guess reflected gibberish still reads as gibberish.

What were you saying about all the things government does again? I couldn't hear you over the piles of people sitting in their own feces since that is what would happen without government.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #226 of 735
Arg deleted. Tra la la.
post #227 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I am supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want. I have my standards, but I shouldnt [be able] to impose my standards on others. Others have their standards and they have no right to impose their standards on me. Just get the government out of it. Its one area where [government involvement] is totally unnecessary. Ron Paul on marriage

I agree 100% with this, as it is consistent with libertarianism and voluntaryism.

Agree with this too.
post #228 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

How will the legal recognition work with regard to hospitals, et cetera?

Allow everyone to designate one legal non-family partner, without restriction.
post #229 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Allow everyone to designate one legal non-family partner, without restriction.

In a polygamist situation, there should be a primary who makes the guardianesque decisions but should not all of the spouses be allowed to see the person in the hospital?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #230 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

In a polygamist situation, there should be a primary who makes the guardianesque decisions but should not all of the spouses be allowed to see the person in the hospital?

Whether people can have more than one designated person is a whole other topic.
post #231 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Whether people can have more than one designated person is a whole other topic.

Well, I'm down with civil unions for all. I don't care fuck-all what couples wants to call it in the privacy of their own ceremonies.

It may be a whole other topic, but if we're getting out of the government telling people what living situations are appropriate and legally recognized, the polygamists do need their respect, too.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #232 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Well, I'm down with civil unions for all. I don't care fuck-all what couples wants to call it in the privacy of their own ceremonies.

It may be a whole other topic, but if we're getting out of the government telling people what living situations are appropriate and legally recognized, the polygamists do need their respect, too.

Living situation is moot. Legal situation is the only question.
post #233 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Living situation is moot. Legal situation is the only question.

Fair enough. It's the legal situation I'm trying to make sure is also fair for polygamists.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #234 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Fair enough. It's the legal situation I'm trying to make sure is also fair for polygamists.

I think being able to designate one person out of your harem is fair, since that's what everybody else gets too.
post #235 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I think being able to designate one person out of your harem is fair, since that's what everybody else gets too.

Except when non-family members are barred from seeing you in the hospital, that isn't fair.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #236 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Except when non-family members are barred from seeing you in the hospital, that isn't fair.

It's no different than the visitation situation today. But the advantage is that marriage is now out of the government's interest (or moral mandate).

And visitation is only one of the benefits of marital legal arrangements. What about insurance benefits? Property? Legal proxy?

To be fair across the board and avoid , every person should be limited to one designated partner.
post #237 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's no different than the visitation situation today. But the advantage is that marriage is now out of the government's interest (or moral mandate).

And visitation is only one of the benefits of marital legal arrangements. What about insurance benefits? Property? Legal proxy?

To be fair across the board and avoid , every person should be limited to one designated partner.

Many people have more than one designated partner over their lifetime. Since that must be dealt with, why prevent polyamory?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #238 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's no different than the visitation situation today. But the advantage is that marriage is now out of the government's interest (or moral mandate).

And visitation is only one of the benefits of marital legal arrangements. What about insurance benefits? Property? Legal proxy?

To be fair across the board and avoid , every person should be limited to one designated partner.

Just because it's logistically complicated and socially taboo doesn't mean that polyamory shouldn't be protected.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #239 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Just because it's logistically complicated and socially taboo doesn't mean that polyamory shouldn't be protected.

Let me get this straight. You think polygamy should be legally recognized?
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post #240 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Let me get this straight. You think polygamy should be legally recognized?

I have no interest in a polyamorous relationship personally, but I'm not about to stop someone else. I thought we were the land of the free?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
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