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Libertarianism - Page 8

post #281 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Hi BR! How are you? Life treating you well? So good to see you.

Yup, things are awesome*. How about you?











*Until I read today about the 700,000 annual bankruptcies related to medical debt that Americans undergo. Now I feel sad.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #282 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yup, things are awesome*. How about you?

I'm well. Thanks for asking.

I agree that it is sad when people file for bankruptcy.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #283 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm well. Thanks for asking.

I agree that it is sad when people file for bankruptcy.

Whoosh goes the point over the head.

It's not nearly as sad that people file for bankruptcy as it is that we have a system that forces people into bankruptcy. A system that conservatives either don't think needs fixing ("The best Medical System in the World!") or needs fixing by forcing poor people to spend more money to reduce the costs for rich people... that's what's sad.

And I repeat. The US is the only modern nation that doesn't have a proper health care system provided by the State.

How many medical related bankruptcies were there in the UK last year? Canada? Australia? It's so sad that you think the US has a better system than those countries do. Really sad.
post #284 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm well. Thanks for asking.

I agree that it is sad when people file for bankruptcy.

Sometimes in life people have no choice but do this.
post #285 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Whoosh goes the point over the head.

It's not nearly as sad that people file for bankruptcy as it is that we have a system that forces people into bankruptcy. A system that conservatives either don't think needs fixing ("The best Medical System in the World!") or needs fixing by forcing poor people to spend more money to reduce the costs for rich people... that's what's sad.

And I repeat. The US is the only modern nation that doesn't have a proper health care system provided by the State.

How many medical related bankruptcies were there in the UK last year? Canada? Australia? It's so sad that you think the US has a better system than those countries do. Really sad.

What about Obama Care?What is the reason the U.S. does not a good health care system in your opinion?
post #286 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

What about Obama Care?What is the reason the U.S. does not a good health care system in your opinion?

Obama Care forces everything to go through the insurance companies, complete with guarantees of profitability for the insurance companies. It's idiotic.

We need single payer. We need a public option that omits the middle man.

Obama's solution is no better than Romney's solution (in fact it's pretty much the same thing except being a Federal instead of a State system), which is not much better than the status quo. Insurance costs will go up, most poor people will still be screwed, and people will still go bankrupt.

There's nothing wrong with the quality of medical care in the US, as long as you're treated by someone not tied to HMOs and profitability. American trained doctors are the best trained and the brightest in the world. But where the US is great in quality, it's disastrous in terms of affordability. This is what makes it worse than other systems -- systems that are equally available to everyone.

If you need an operation, you can buy a round trip ticket to Hong Kong and get treated by excellent doctors, receive the best treatments and medicines, stay in private hospitals with the best facilities, and still end up paying half as much (including the airfare) as you would being treated in your home town in the US if you're not fortunate enough to have a great job that offers full insurance.
post #287 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Whoosh goes the point over the head.

More like I simply didn't take the bait.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's not nearly as sad that people file for bankruptcy as it is that we have a system that forces people into bankruptcy.

Well, given that BR simply threw out an estimated number from an article that provided no backing for said number, I'd say there's no real point in discussing it. To paraphrase another person...when someone throws out a number like that should ask some questions like:

- How did you arrive at that number?
- In what way were all of these alleged (actually estimated) bankruptcies attributable to medical expenses given that money is a fungible resource?
- Were there other factors contributing to these (estimated) bankruptcies?

And there are probably more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

A system that conservatives either don't think needs fixing ("The best Medical System in the World!") or needs fixing by forcing poor people to spend more money to reduce the costs for rich people... that's what's sad.

Well I've never said it doesn't need fixing. Of course it needs fixing (though it does have many good qualities that folks on the left seem to ignore). I just don't believe or expect your proposed "solutions" to fix it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And I repeat. The US is the only modern nation that doesn't have a proper health care system provided by the State.

So what? This is an irrelevant argument as to whether it should. This is the equivalent of junior high school kids telling there parents "But all the other kids are doing it!" :roll eyes:


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How many medical related bankruptcies were there in the UK last year? Canada? Australia?

I have no idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

t's so sad that you think the US has a better system than those countries do. Really sad.

I've told you before that our conversations will go better when you stop telling me what I think or believe.

I do believe the healthcare market in the US is broken though not completely and not for the reasons you think. I believe there are some solid ways to fix it but these approaches are unlikely to ever be considered. I believe I've outlined them (multiple times) before here.

Most involve getting the government to stop distorting the market.

A few simple things right off the bat:

- Equalize the tax treatment of health insurance premiums bought outside of an employer vs. through an employer.
- Invoke the interstate commerce clause to allow insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines.
- Eliminate all coverage mandates and premium price controls on medical insurance.
- Find some way to eliminate or privatize medicare/medicaid.

These are a start. You probably need to work on the supply side as well:

- Do some things to reduce the cost of getting medical products and services approved and available. Probably reduced and streamlined approvals.
- Do some things to help increase the supply of healthcare providers by getting out of the way and relaxing or eliminating licensing requirements.

Finally, the federal government can stop doing things that indirectly lead to a number of health problems across the population:

- Stop subsidizing corn crops would be a big one.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #288 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You begged the question that I could easily win a lawsuit for breathing in air pollution. You continue to do so. You support it with "look around, the green message is everywhere." That's a hasty generalization.

Nay. The Nirvana fallacy simply requires you to reject a solution because it isn't perfect, like your alternative--the courts that will magically rule in my favor for breathing in the pollution of coal power plants.

Well, as MJ1970 said, now you are are the one wanting perfection/guarantees that just doesn't exist in the human sphere. I could just as easily say of your system, "How do you guarantee the polluter next door won't lobby politicians for exemption from regulation?" and you will also get nothing.

Neither of us is arguing for no government in this situation, we are arguing over which branch of government should handle it. Neither branch is perfect but I think the judicial system strives for/takes pride in evenhandedness and objectivity more than the legislative, and you are more likely to get a fair hearing from them.
post #289 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Well, as MJ1970 said, now you are are the one wanting perfection/guarantees that just doesn't exist in the human sphere. I could just as easily say of your system, "How do you guarantee the polluter next door won't lobby politicians for exemption from regulation?" and you will also get nothing.

Neither of us is arguing for no government in this situation, we are arguing over which branch of government should handle it. Neither branch is perfect but I think the judicial system strives for/takes pride in evenhandedness and objectivity more than the legislative, and you are more likely to get a fair hearing from them.

Never said it was perfect. I only contend that my imperfect solution is better than yours.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #290 of 735
Double post
post #291 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

- Equalize the tax treatment of health insurance premiums bought outside of an employer vs. through an employer.
- Invoke the interstate commerce clause to allow insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines.
- Eliminate all coverage mandates and premium price controls on medical insurance.
- Find some way to eliminate or privatize medicare/medicaid.

These are a start. You probably need to work on the supply side as well:

- Do some things to reduce the cost of getting medical products and services approved and available. Probably reduced and streamlined approvals.
- Do some things to help increase the supply of healthcare providers by getting out of the way and relaxing or eliminating licensing requirements.

Please explain how the poor get treatment under your system, assuming that not everyone, and not every type of treatment for every type of ailment is going to be covered by voluntary charity.
post #292 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Obama Care forces everything to go through the insurance companies, complete with guarantees of profitability for the insurance companies. It's idiotic.

We need single payer. We need a public option that omits the middle man.

Obama's solution is no better than Romney's solution (in fact it's pretty much the same thing except being a Federal instead of a State system), which is not much better than the status quo. Insurance costs will go up, most poor people will still be screwed, and people will still go bankrupt.

There's nothing wrong with the quality of medical care in the US, as long as you're treated by someone not tied to HMOs and profitability. American trained doctors are the best trained and the brightest in the world. But where the US is great in quality, it's disastrous in terms of affordability. This is what makes it worse than other systems -- systems that are equally available to everyone.

If you need an operation, you can buy a round trip ticket to Hong Kong and get treated by excellent doctors, receive the best treatments and medicines, stay in private hospitals with the best facilities, and still end up paying half as much (including the airfare) as you would being treated in your home town in the US if you're not fortunate enough to have a great job that offers full insurance.

It is quite pathetic that a rich country like the U.S. can't provide everyone with health insurance with out all the gimmicks involved.I did not know Hong Kong is like that with health insurance.
post #293 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

It is quite pathetic that a rich country like the U.S. can't provide everyone with health insurance with out all the gimmicks involved.I did not know Hong Kong is like that with health insurance.

Why don't you ask him what Hong Kong is like about immigration?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #294 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Obama Care forces everything to go through the insurance companies, complete with guarantees of profitability for the insurance companies. It's idiotic.

I agree...forcing people to buy insurance=bad.

Quote:

We need single payer. We need a public option that omits the middle man.

Disagree. Our government is the worst of all middle men.

Quote:

Obama's solution is no better than Romney's solution (in fact it's pretty much the same thing except being a Federal instead of a State system), which is not much better than the status quo. Insurance costs will go up, most poor people will still be screwed, and people will still go bankrupt.

It's much worse than Romney's plan. First, it's unconstitutional. The distinction between federal and state is huge under the law. Secondly, it's far more bloated than Romney's plan. The only real area where they are similar is the individual mandate.

Quote:

There's nothing wrong with the quality of medical care in the US, as long as you're treated by someone not tied to HMOs and profitability. American trained doctors are the best trained and the brightest in the world. But where the US is great in quality, it's disastrous in terms of affordability. This is what makes it worse than other systems -- systems that are equally available to everyone.

The problem is that you think government-provided healthcare is a right. It's not...at least not in our system.

Quote:

If you need an operation, you can buy a round trip ticket to Hong Kong and get treated by excellent doctors, receive the best treatments and medicines, stay in private hospitals with the best facilities, and still end up paying half as much (including the airfare) as you would being treated in your home town in the US if you're not fortunate enough to have a great job that offers full insurance.

Fortunate enough? That pretty much sums up your view. It's all about luck to you. I'm LUCKY to have a job with great benefits. Never mind that great benefits and less pay is part of the choice I made when deciding my profession. Never mind that people have upward mobility in this country. And why should habitual, seasonally unemployed Joe Blow get the same healthcare I have?
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post #295 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

It is quite pathetic that a rich country like the U.S. can't provide everyone with health insurance with out all the gimmicks involved.I did not know Hong Kong is like that with health insurance.

Hong Kong has universal health care, and it also has a vibrant and affordable private health care industry, as well as an affordable and profitable insurance industry. What's not to like?
post #296 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Hong Kong has universal health care, and it also has a vibrant and affordable private health care industry, as well as an affordable and profitable insurance industry. What's not to like?

Uh, the fact that healthcare is not a right? How about that?
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post #297 of 735
Yeah, fuck those people who just want to live and not go bankrupt. Selfish assholes.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #298 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Please explain how the poor get treatment under your system, assuming that not everyone, and not every type of treatment for every type of ailment is going to be covered by voluntary charity.

Few* of questions:

1. Who or what are "the poor" in the scenario you describe?
2. How many are there?
3. Do you assume these poor would not have insurance of any kind?
4. What ailments are included in your scenario of "every type of ailment"?
5. Why should we assume what you ask to assume?

*BR correctly pointed out that it was not just "a couple" of questions. That distraction taken care of, I hope the discussion can continue along relevant lines.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #299 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yeah, f*ck those people who just want to live and not go bankrupt. Selfish a**holes.

If you can't respond seriously, then don't. I'm asking why everyone is entitled to the same healthcare I pay for. Do you believe it's a right? And if so, why do I have to pay for it while others do not?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #300 of 735
A couple? Wow. This is quite typical of you. You ask so many questions and steer the conversation further and further away from the initial point, never getting back to answering the initial question yourself. How about you, for once, directly address the question while listing the reasonable assumptions you make.

"I believe that the poor (the X number of people who make under Y) will get treatment because..."

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #301 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

A couple? Wow. This is quite typical of you. You ask so many questions and steer the conversation further and further away from the initial point, never getting back to answering the initial question yourself. How about you, for once, directly address the question while listing the reasonable assumptions you make.

"I believe that the poor (the X number of people who make under Y) will get treatment because..."

Hi BR! How are you doing? I'm sorry that I mis-stated when I said "a couple". I should have said a few. I'm sorry that you feel these questions are irrelevant to the question tonton asked. Feel free to ignore them.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #302 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Uh, the fact that healthcare is not a right? How about that?

So... if it's fiscally possible to provide healthcare universally, regardless of whether it's "a right" or not, you would choose not to? On principle? Because you're richer, so you damn well deserve better than those poor bastards?
post #303 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

If you can't respond seriously, then don't. I'm asking why everyone is entitled to the same healthcare I pay for. Do you believe it's a right? And if so, why do I have to pay for it while others do not?

Take your argument to the logical conclusion. Are you saying people who cannot afford to pay what you do should not receive medical treatment? You would have people die from lack of treatment because you're angry you have to pay and they don't?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #304 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Hi BR! How are you doing? I'm sorry that I mis-stated when I said "a couple". I should have said a few. I'm sorry that you feel these questions are irrelevant to the question tonton asked. Feel free to ignore them.

Or just fill in a few reasonable assumptions yourself, acknowledge them, and just answer the question. That would really streamline the whole process and show you actually care about having a conversation.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #305 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or just fill in a few reasonable assumptions yourself, acknowledge them, and just answer the question. That would really streamline the whole process and show you actually care about having a conversation.

I'm not the one proposing the scenario and making the assumptions. Nor do I have any reason to believe, at this point, that these are valid assumptions. The burden is on the proposer to state and justify these assumptions.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #306 of 735
What is your healthcare plan then so that we are not assuming that we know what it does and doesn't cover? Please fill us in so we stop making these assumptions. We are clearly asserting that poor people will not get treatment because we cannot understand how your plan works. Please tell us how it works--that's really the root of the issue.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #307 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Few* of questions:

1. Who or what are "the poor" in the scenario you describe?

People who can't afford private care or insurance.
Quote:
2. How many are there?

Enough to make it a problem that needs to be taken care of.
Quote:
3. Do you assume these poor would not have insurance of any kind?

Yes. They're poor. There are unemployed. There are homeless. There are people who work at Walmart as part time employees who have zero or near zero coverage.
Quote:
4. What ailments are included in your scenario of "every type of ailment"?

Um... every type of ailment, maybe?
Quote:
5. Why should we assume what you ask to assume?

Why should I assume you're incapable of acknowledging that there are people that are too poor to afford insurance of any kind? Why should I assume that you're incapable of acknowledging that there are illnesses and other medical problems that aren't "popular" with the general public? Why should I assume you're so lacking in empathy that you don't think that these people need to be covered? I don't assume any of those things, and you do seem intelligent, so I do assume that you know what I'm talking about. Should I?
post #308 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

What is your healthcare plan then so that we are not assuming that we know what it does and doesn't cover? Please fill us in so we stop making these assumptions. We are clearly asserting that poor people will not get treatment because we cannot understand how your plan works. Please tell us how it works--that's really the root of the issue.

My healthcare plan would be to allow the market, unobstructed by government distortions, to provide health care products, services and insurance.

I believe this would result in many more higher quality products, services, service providers, insurance options at lower prices.

When there are people who are unable those who are unable to afford the necessary even though less expensive products and services (and who are not benefiting from generosity of pro bono services) I expect those who care about these folks like you, me, tonton, et al. to respond with generosity when required to help the few people who would encounter this situation.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #309 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

People who can't afford private care or insurance.

Enough to make it a problem that needs to be taken care of.



If you're not really going to put any effort into constructing your scenario, then I'm not going to put much effort into answering it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes. They're poor. There are unemployed. There are homeless. There are people who work at Walmart as part time employees who have zero or near zero coverage.

So you assume that health care insurance would remain un-affordable for everyone?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Um... every type of ailment, maybe?

So every sniffle, cough and scratch? Everything? There's nothing that's not to be covered? For free?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Why should I assume you're incapable of acknowledging that there are people that are too poor to afford insurance of any kind?

You shouldn't because I'm not. I'm asking you to support justify the assumption you're asking me to make.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Why should I assume that you're incapable of acknowledging that there are illnesses and other medical problems that aren't "popular" with the general public?

You shouldn't because I'm not. But now you seem to be changing the scenario. This is one of the reasons clarification of your hypothetical situation would be helpful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Why should I assume you're so lacking in empathy that you don't think that these people need to be covered?

You shouldn't because I'm not. I am also not the one assuming they would not be covered. I've asked you to justify why I should assume they would not be. So far you've failed to do so.

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post #310 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

My healthcare plan would be to allow the market, unobstructed by government distortions, to provide health care products, services and insurance.

When there are people who are unable those who are unable to afford the necessary even though less expensive products and services (and who are not benefiting from generosity of pro bono services) I expect those who care about these folks like you, me, tonton, et al. to respond with generosity when required to help the few people who would encounter this situation.

This is what I thought. You honestly think the goodness of people's hearts will help everyone in need, for all of their needs.
post #311 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is what I thought. You honestly think the goodness of people's hearts will help everyone in need, for all of their needs.

Actually, yes. I also think there will be fewer in need, so that helps.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #312 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is what I thought. You honestly think the goodness of people's hearts will help everyone in need, for all of their needs.

I think you might be drawing a false dichotomy between "people working together through the state," and "every man for himself." There is a third option: "people working together without the state." And historically that is what the US had.

Here is a recent Forbes article describing the ways people used to look after each other before the Entitlement State, such as Mutual Aid Societies.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2012/01...ron-brook.html
post #313 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yeah, fuck those people who just want to live and not go bankrupt. Selfish assholes.

How many people went bankrupt in countries where government intervention into the health care system had not caused massive inflation of prices?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #314 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I think you might be drawing a false dichotomy between "people working together through the state," and "every man for himself." There is a third option: "people working together without the state." And historically that is what the US had.

Bingo! Again. Nice ascii.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Here is a recent Forbes article describing the ways people used to look after each other before the Entitlement State, such as Mutual Aid Societies.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2012/01...ron-brook.html

Thanks for sharing. There's actually another, older, book that touches on the same subject: "The Tragedy of American Compassion" It too outlines the plethora of options that were available to help people in a variety of circumstances. It also goes on to outline the problems that have occurred as the state has become more and more the epicenter of this "help."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #315 of 735
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #316 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Take your argument to the logical conclusion. Are you saying people who cannot afford to pay what you do should not receive medical treatment? You would have people die from lack of treatment because you're angry you have to pay and they don't?

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that people who don't pay or pay much less for whatever reason shouldn't be entitled to the same LEVEL of healthcare. I chose a profession, employer and plan that pays for almost everything. I work not just for salary, but for benefits as well. Why should someone that chose differently get the same benefits? By your logic, everyone should get summers off, too.
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post #317 of 735
While I think everyone should be entitled to 6 weeks off a year and that there is absolutely NOTHING noble about working 3 jobs to make ends meet (that's a rather sad commentary on our societal structure as opposed to an uplifting story), that is completely beside the point.

You are conflating two issues--this "level of care" and the idea that everyone should have access to healthcare at all. Let's deal with the latter, first. Do you believe that everyone who is sick is not necessarily entitled to be treated, regardless of insurance status?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #318 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I think you might be drawing a false dichotomy between "people working together through the state," and "every man for himself." There is a third option: "people working together without the state." And historically that is what the US had.

Historically, the US was a horrible place for the poor. We need it to be better. Name one decade that was great in your opinion.
post #319 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that people who don't pay or pay much less for whatever reason shouldn't be entitled to the same LEVEL of healthcare.

Other than comfort level, yes, they damn well should! You get a private ward and a nice meal of that's what you pay for. You can even fly to another state to get the best doctors and pay those doctors extra for priority service. I'm not a proponent of the Canadian system, but I think the Hong Kong system is fucking awesome and the British system is pretty damn good.
post #320 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

How many people went bankrupt in countries where government intervention into the health care system had not caused massive inflation of prices?

Are you kidding? Seriously? The US system has inflated prices more than anywhere else in the world, by a longshot. If you want to go by price alone, we're far better off when there's a single payer option because it causes competition.
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