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Libertarianism - Page 10

post #361 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ummm, yes.

Try again. This is about religion, not political beliefs.
post #362 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Try again. This is about religion, not political beliefs.

WHat are you talking about?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #363 of 735
I would only count the percentage of money donated to churches that actually goes to no-strings-attached charity-work. Giving money to build bigger churches, pay pastors, and market their religious teachings does not qualify as charity.

If you cared about the truth, you'd analyze the data and only count what truly went to the needy without any proselytizing.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #364 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

WHat are you talking about?

Take a liberal church. Take a conservative church. Which gives more to charity?

It just so happens that most churches are attributed to conservatives.

The reason the "red" states gave (slightly) more is because the "red" states are more religious, NOT because they are more conservative.
post #365 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I would only count the percentage of money donated to churches that actually goes to no-strings-attached charity-work. Giving money to build bigger churches, pay pastors, and market their religious teachings does not qualify as charity.

If you cared about the truth, you'd analyze the data and only count what truly went to the needy without any proselytizing.

You forgot building castles and sending tens of thousands overseas to show the "truth" to the heathens.
post #366 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Take a liberal church. Take a conservative church. Which gives more to charity?

Don't know. You tell me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It just so happens that most churches are attributed to conservatives.

The reason the "red" states gave (slightly) more is because the "red" states are more religious, NOT because they are more conservative.

So they're using a proxy and you claim the proxy is wrong?

But the red states also voted more conservatively.

Do you want to show some evidence that charitable giving is even or slanted the other direction?

You asked if there was evidence of the one statement. It took me all of a couple minutes to find some evidence that suggest this claim to be true. I'm sure there's more also.

But you are free to present counter-evidence also.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #367 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Don't know. You tell me.




So they're using a proxy and you claim the proxy is wrong?

But the red states also voted more conservatively.

Do you want to show some evidence that charitable giving is even or slanted the other direction?

You asked if there was evidence of the one statement. It took me all of a couple minutes to find some evidence that suggest this claim to be true. I'm sure there's more also.

But you are free to present counter-evidence also.

Anyway, it was a very small point in your graphic, which is generally Informative and not wrong. I refudiate. I just have a problem with the implication that Liberals don't believe in charitable giving to those in need.
post #368 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Anyway, it was a very small point in your graphic, which is generally Informative and not wrong. I refudiate. I just have a problem with the implication that Liberals don't believe in charitable giving to those in need.

Wasn't my graphic. Try to keep up.

I don't actually believe that about all liberals, but I do believe that many liberals think that their taxes do their giving for them.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #369 of 735
A great, thought-provoking essay:

How Property Rights Solve Problems

Quote:
Should restaurants allow smoking or not? Should schools teach evolution or intelligent design or both? Should insurance companies cover contraception? Should I be able to take off my shoes in your living room?

You might think that that last question doesn't belong with the first three. After all, the first three questions are momentous ones about "public policy." The last one is only about the rules you have for my behavior in your living rooma "private-policy" question. And your answer to that question will depend on how you want to use your property.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #370 of 735
And another. Some excerpts (while thing is worth reading):

Quote:
Compared with 50 years ago, when I was just four years old, the average human now earns nearly three times as much money (corrected for inflation), eats one third more calories, buries two thirds fewer children, and can expect to live one third longer. In fact, it's hard to find any region of the world that's worse off now than it was then, even though the global population has more than doubled over that period.

Quote:
The rich get richer, but the poor do even better. Between 1980 and 2000, the poor doubled their consumption. The Chinese are ten times richer and live about 25 years longer than they did 50 years ago. Nigerians are twice as rich and live nine more years. The percentage of the world's people living in absolute poverty has dropped by over half. The United Nations estimates that poverty was reduced more in the past 50 years than in the previous 500.

Quote:
One reason we are richer, healthier, taller, cleverer, longer-lived, and freer than ever before is that the four most basic human needs-food, clothing, fuel, and shelter-have grown markedly cheaper. Take one example: In 1800, a candle providing one hour's light cost six hours' work. In the 1880s, the same light from a kerosene lamp took 15 minutes' work to pay for. In 1950, it was eight seconds. Today, it's half a second. In these terms, we are 43,200 times better off than in 1800.

Quote:
In the United States, rivers, lakes, seas, and air are getting cleaner all the time. A car today emits less pollution traveling at full speed than a parked car did from leaks in 1970.

Quote:
By 9 a.m., I have shaved with an American razor, eaten bread made with French wheat and spread with New Zealand butter and Spanish marmalade, brewed tea from Sri Lanka, dressed in clothes made from Indian cotton and Australian wool, put on shoes of Chinese leather and Malaysian rubber, and read a newspaper printed on Finnish paper with Chinese ink. I have consumed minuscule fractions of the productive labor of hundreds of people. This is the magic of trade and specialization. Self-sufficiency is poverty.

Quote:
In 1970, there were 550 billion barrels of oil reserves in the world, and in the 20 years that followed, the world used 600 billion. So by 1990, reserves should have been overdrawn by 50 billion barrels. Instead, they amounted to 900 billion-not counting tar sands and oil shale that between them contain about 20 times the proven reserves of Saudi Arabia. Oil, coal, and gas are finite, but they will last for decades, perhaps centuries, and people will find alternatives long before they run out.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #371 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

A great, thought-provoking essay:

How Property Rights Solve Problems

This is a fantastic piece. Shared on my blog and will share with family and friends. Thanks for the link!

Of particular relevance to many of the discussions we've had in PO:

Quote:
Should schools teach evolution or intelligent design or both? Many people might be tempted to say that the answer depends on which is true: evolution or intelligent design. But what if what one person thinks is true another person thinks is false? Some people are absolutely sure that evolution is true, while others are absolutely sure that intelligent design explains why we we're here on planet Earth.

But the only reason this appears to be a public-policy problem is that with a prior intervention, governments have made it one. How so? By taxing people, some of whom believe in intelligent design, some of whom believe in evolution, and some of whom don't know what they believe, to pay for other people's schooling. In other words, it appears to be a public-policy problem because of a prior violation of people's right to keep their own property. That's why there is conflict. People who argue that they shouldn't be forced to subsidize the teaching of intelligent design have a point. So do those who argue that they shouldn't be forced to subsidize the teaching of evolution. Thomas Jefferson put it best: "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

If the government got out of schooling and let people choose how and where to spend their money on their children's schools and on other children's schools (I'm assuming that, consistent with history, many more-affluent people who are free to choose how to spend their money would willingly subsidize the schooling of those who are less affluent5), the problem would go away. Those who want to finance the teaching of evolution would do so; those who want to finance the teaching of intelligent design would do so. The conflict would disappear.

Of course there would still be people who are upset that a school teaches something they disapprove of, but that doesn't mean that there would be conflict. If everyone's property rights were respected, there would be no conflict. There would simply be people who are upset by others' choices.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #372 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And another. Some excerpts (while thing is worth reading):

I posted this on my Tumblog (Tumblr blog) as well and I actually had someone reblog it who said it was "the worst thing they'd ever seen this side of societal justice" whatever that means.

It's amazing to me that people can actually deny or try to refute the fact that mankind is better off now than it was 50 years ago.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #373 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"the worst thing they'd ever seen this side of societal justice" whatever that means.

I have no idea what that statement means either.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #374 of 735
Thread Starter 
Just look at this newspaper ad from 1905:



100 years ago this is how you dealt with a hernia.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #375 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Just look at this newspaper ad from 1905:



100 years ago this is how you dealt with a hernia.

Heck just in the last 40 years dealing with them has improved significantly. Forty years ago surgery for this was a rather invasive in-patient procedure involving a day or two in the hospital plus several days (couple of weeks of recuperation). Now it is practically an outpatient arthroscopic procedure that probably has most people back to work and normal activity within a week.

Additionally many, many medical procedures including many cancer treatments have improved greatly (though I think the way its done today will seem like bleeding people with leeches a hundred years from now.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #376 of 735
And still another:

Quote:
My first deployment was to Baghdad, that ancient Mesopotamian city positioned on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It was there I discovered how, even during the most violent and unstable times, markets can adapt to the needs of consumers and peacefully provide essential services to humanity.

The focus of this article will be on economic provision, rather than the war itself. However, it's important to note that the following free-market solutions have blossomed in spite of being in the heart of a country ravaged by economic sanctions and all but total war. Not only was the US-led war destructive of the physical means to provide such services; it also destroyed the institutions that delivered them, adding to the difficulty in restoring them.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #377 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Heck just in the last 40 years dealing with them has improved significantly. Forty years ago surgery for this was a rather invasive in-patient procedure involving a day or two in the hospital plus several days (couple of weeks of recuperation). Now it is practically an outpatient arthroscopic procedure that probably has most people back to work and normal activity within a week.

Additionally many, many medical procedures including many cancer treatments have improved greatly (though I think the way its done today will seem like bleeding people with leeches a hundred years from now.)

You can thank science (that you deny) for those advancements.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #378 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You can thank science (that you deny) for those advancements.

I don't deny science. Please stop lying.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #379 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I don't deny science. Please stop lying.

Cancer research is done in the context of biological science, of which evolution is a key scientific theory explaining that field. You deny evolution, you deny science. I'm not lying. You are.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #380 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Cancer research is done in the context of biological science, of which evolution is a key scientific theory explaining that field. You deny evolution, you deny science. I'm not lying. You are.

Wow.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #381 of 735
There's zero controversy about evolution amongst the scientifically literate. There's only manufactured controversy from the ignorant pushing their Iron Age agendum. Wow is right.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #382 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's zero controversy about evolution amongst the scientifically literate. There's only manufactured controversy from the ignorant pushing their Iron Age agendum. Wow is right.

That's not what the "wow" was about. But I don't expect you to get it.

Anyway...do I get to call you economically illiterate when you subscribe the astrology of economics...Keynesianism?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #383 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Cancer research is done in the context of biological science, of which evolution is a key scientific theory explaining that field. You deny evolution, you deny science. I'm not lying. You are.

Most medical treatment and most social services are the antithesis of believing in evolution. In advocating for them you absolutely deny science. I'm not lying, you are denying science.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #384 of 735
Thread Starter 
“Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?” — Thomas Jefferson

I find it bizarre that proponents of the State (statists) claim that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself, yet propose as the solution to this "problem" that other men (who also cannot be trusted with the government of themselves) govern him.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #385 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Thomas Jefferson

I find it bizarre that proponents of the State (statists) claim that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself, yet propose as the solution to this "problem" that other men (who also cannot be trusted with the government of themselves) govern him.

Stop introducing logic. Quit promoting ignorance and unscientific thinking!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #386 of 735
Thread Starter 
“I was taught very early on that the state can be, and is, a liar and a murderer.” — Christopher Hitchens

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #387 of 735

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post


Cancer research is done in the context of biological science, of which evolution is a key scientific theory explaining that field. You deny evolution, you deny science. I'm not lying. You are.

 

If you were a libertarian, you wouldn't care, because there would be nothing about his beliefs that would materially impact your way of life.

Cat: the other white meat
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Cat: the other white meat
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post #388 of 735

Teaching the next generation of children that science isn't real will result in us having to buy the technological innovations created by the rest of the world as opposed to making and selling them ourselves.  I'm not a libertarian anymore (because I grew up), but even if I were, his nonsensical beliefs being passed down to his children do materially impact my way of life.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #389 of 735
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #390 of 735

And when Simon gets sick and can't afford healthcare?  Die in the streets?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #391 of 735
Thread Starter 

Do you really want to start? You got the other thread locked with all your profanity. Maybe you should cool down a bit.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #392 of 735

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Do you really want to start? You got the other thread locked with all your profanity. Maybe you should cool down a bit.

 

I think that he got exactly what he wanted over there. He was at risk of being exposed as the hypocrite that he is and wanted to smoke screen it until no one noticed. The thread getting locked was a gift to him.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #393 of 735

It's not polite to talk about someone in the third person when he's standing right here.  I thought you were supposed to be the polite one.  :(

 

I had a legitimate question.  And the two of you were really rude to me.  :(

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #394 of 735

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I had a legitimate question.  And the two of you were really rude to me.  :(

 

What was your question and how was I rude?

 

I also had a legitimate question and you were unquestionably rude and evasive.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #395 of 735

Scroll up.  You had your own little private conversation about me out in public, right in front of me.  So mean.  :(

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #396 of 735

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Scroll up.  You had your own little private conversation about me out in public, right in front of me.  So mean.  :(

 

Yep.

 

And so will you ever answer the question?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #397 of 735

I did.  You didn't like the answer.  C'est la vie.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #398 of 735

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I did.  You didn't like the answer.  C'est la vie.

 

Really? Since you did why don't repeat the answer to why you think the government must recognize these various marriages? You could even point to the post where you answered that question. But since you already answered (unless you're lying), it should be no problem to answer it directly and clearly right here and right now.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #399 of 735
Thread Starter 

If I recall, his answer to the question was that he refused to answer the question.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #400 of 735

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If I recall, his answer to the question was that he refused to answer the question.

 

Of course. It's because he knows it would expose his hypocrisy. Oh well. It's there for all to see anyway.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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