If I were the only inhabitant of the planet I would happily self-govern, but since that is not the case I prefer a structured society to anarchy. But that is trivially obvious, and you are playing games.
If I were the only inhabitant of the planet I would happily self-govern, but since that is not the case I prefer a structured society to anarchy. But that is trivially obvious, and you are playing games.
You can't have a structured society without government?
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Libertarianism, more than another other political philosophy (e.g., Democrats & Republicans, liberals and conservatives, progressives, socialists, Marxists, fascist and statists of all flavors), demands that the same rules apply to everyone. Where these other groups often want special privileges and rights to certain groups and for certain rules to not apply or apply differently.
The simple, honest fact is that you don't actually want everyone to follow the same rules. Think carefully about that.
Well said. You reminded my of a great passage from For a New Liberty:
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
But you'd be wrong if you consider that an example of initiative force, coercion or violence. Try again. You're smarter than this tonton.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
You're mistaken. The stealing in the tax situation is the state stealing from people. Get it straight. Think about it. The state is the one doing the stealing.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
I don't know about the Mormon church. I don't attend. But with the HOA, no.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
No it isn't.
Yes it does.
There is a massive and fundamental difference, you're just not seeing it. Whether this is because you cannot or will not, I don't know.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
Yes. Though with a condominium/townhouse there is shared ownership of some aspects of the property.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
Why? Some of these things can certainly be handled individually. Others, admittedly, would benefit from coming together as a group of homeowners. There's nothing special or magical about that. But there's nothing that fundamentally requires it. In any case, there's nothing wrong with voluntarily engaging in contracts and associations to achieve these things. Some of these things may have the superficial appearance of being no different from the state...but this is indeed a superficial similarity. There are fundamental underlying differences.
Most HOA agreements involve a foreclosure and collections process if you have violated the agreement you voluntarily entered into.
No one said there aren't contracts and dispute arbitration agencies. There's actually some good literature on this. In fact...when you asked (a while ago...in this thread I believe) about about defense absent the state. I posted some things that actually addressed all of this. And there's certainly more literature that discussed how private dispute resolution can be achieved. You, of course, may disagree and dispute the effectiveness of such approaches, but at least be intellectually honest and curious and read some of it. Think about it rather than simply waving it off. There's some very interesting and thought-provoking things out there.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Perhaps you'll read the paper I posted to start with rather than trying to deal with this through a series of internet forum posts.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

So you're not really interested in a serious discussion. I might have guessed. Oh well. I'm tired of dealing with children. Goodbye.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.
My church doesn't send armed thugs after me if I choose not to tithe.
You can choose whether or not you live in a community with a HOA.
Is taxation is voluntary? No. It is not.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
There are several I think would be much better than what currently exists. Here are a few:
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
If you refuse to read and seek to understand suggested libertarian literature, then you obviously have no intention of believing or understanding a word we say, so it really is pointless to ask us questions, isn't it?
However, in the hope that some part of you does want to learn about and understand libertarian philosophy, I strongly suggest you read For a New Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard. I think he puts forth some compelling arguments regarding the courts and law enforcement. Here is a sample:
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
You are wrong. I would not be harassed by armed thugs at my home if I chose to stop tithing, and to my knowledge nobody has ever been arrested for trespassing at our church buildings solely on the basis of not tithing. In fact, all are welcome to worship with us at our church buildings, member or not, tithe-payer or not.
Temples are different from church buildings. We believe they are very sacred places, and we agree to try to live our lives according to certain standards to enter the temple. If you want to attend the temple, you get a "Temple Recommend" from your ecclesiastical leaders after going over and agreeing to those standards with them. One of those standards is paying a full and honest tithe, as commanded in the Holy Scriptures.
But you don't care about the doctrine or theology behind it, do you? What it really comes down to is this: when I was old enough to understand and determine for myself what becoming a member of the church entailed, I consented - of my own free will and choice - to become a member.
However, the moment I was born, individuals calling themselves a government automatically deemed me a "citizen" and laid claim to a portion of any income I might eventually earn, whether or not I wanted the "services" they provided or consented to the things they did with my money. I had no opportunity to consent - of my own free will and choice - to become a citizen and accept all that it entailed.
Do you not see the difference?
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Care to back that incredible assertion up with a link or two?
My (non-Mormon) denomination believes in tithing, and our pastors are not even made aware of what an attendee's record of giving looks like.
Have they really ever been tried?
Many British colonists had your same attitude toward declaring independence from Britain and establishing a new and "radical" government in North America circa 1776.
"It'll never work."
"People need a monarch to look after them."
"I don't want to break with tradition."
"It's always been this way and it'll always be this way."
I'm thankful enough of them had the courage to try something new and different.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
What happens if you enter into a voluntary association or contract with another party and then fail to uphold your part of the agreement? Is the other party obligated to fulfill their part of the contract, regardless?
You ignored my point. My association with my church is voluntary. My association with my government is not.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)


You completely ignore the concept of consent.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
It is not voluntary. It was imposed upon me the moment I was born.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

I was deemed a citizen the moment I was born, not when I turned 18.
I paid income tax when I got my first job at age 16.
Your argument is absurd. I signed no contract. I did not have the opportunity to opt-in to anything. The U.S. government laid claim to me the moment I was born.
I hereby declare you a citizen of Jazzguruland. You are required to pay the government of Jazzguruland 50% of your income, which will be used use to provide its citizens with an endless supply of bendy-straws, pogo sticks, and toothpaste. If you refuse to comply, I will send armed thugs to collect. This is, of course, completely voluntary on your part and you can move to Antarctica if you wish to opt-out of becoming a citizen of Jazzguruland. Have a nice day.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

