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Libertarianism - Page 14

post #521 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


I've never used any of the infrastructure or benefits of jazzguruland, so I respectfully decline.

I'm sure your house is lovely, but I don't live there.

 

Jazzguruland has a monopoly on all bendy-straws, pogo sticks, and toothpaste. If you have ever used any such items, you have a moral obligation and duty to the rest of "society" to pay your taxes to Jazzguruland. It's for the children.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #522 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've never used any of the infrastructure or benefits of jazzguruland, so I respectfully decline.


I'm sure your house is lovely, but I don't live there.

Jazzguruland has a monopoly on all bendy-straws, pogo sticks, and toothpaste. If you have ever used any such items, you have a moral obligation and duty to the rest of "society" to pay your taxes to Jazzguruland. It's for the children.
Now explain how that's a parallel to the United States.
post #523 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My argument stands. You could easily have left when you turned 18. You chose not to. It's not so easy now, and you will have to settle taxes first, sell stationary assets, transfer your remaining assets, and pay taxes on that transfer, but you can still do it now. Again, you choose not to. That's a 100% voluntary choice.

 

Your argument never stood. Being a member of a church is not the same as being a citizen of the United States. This is obvious to most.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #524 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

My argument stands. You could easily have left when you turned 18. You chose not to. It's not so easy now, and you will have to settle taxes first, sell stationary assets, transfer your remaining assets, and pay taxes on that transfer, but you can still do it now. Again, you choose not to. That's a 100% voluntary choice.

Your argument never stood. Being a member of a church is not the same as being a citizen of the United States. This is obvious to most.
Saying that your citizenship is not voluntary is a lie. This is obvious to all.
post #525 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Now explain how that's a parallel to the United States.

 

The government has a monopoly on many services, preventing competition in the free market.

 

Mail delivery, for example. Want a piece of mail delivered to your mailbox? You must use the USPS. There are no other alternatives.

 

A man named Lysander Spooner once created a successful competitor to the USPS. His company delivered mail more efficiently and at lower cost. The government shut it down.

 

You don't want to use the USPS? Too bad. Oh, and we're going to take money out of your paycheck to pay for it, too. Don't want to pay for it? We'll send men with badges and guns to force you to pay.

 

Isn't that convenient? You have to pay taxes because you use our services. Yet we're the only ones providing those services because we have a monopoly on them and prevent the free market from competing with us.

 

On top of that, we can't even break even on most of the services we provide because we don't have to compete with anyone and we are under no obligation to improve our services or deliver them more efficiently.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #526 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Saying that your citizenship is not voluntary is a lie. This is obvious to all.

 

I was declared a citizen when I was born. Tell me how that was voluntary on my part.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #527 of 735
You were born a boy. Was that voluntary? You were born white (I guess). Was that? Did you choose your mom and dad? I bet you you were born a member of the Mormon Church, as a matter of fact. Did you pop out of your American, Mormon mother's belly and proclaim, "Hi, Mom, I want to be a Mormon like you?" Your claim is asinine.
post #528 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You were born a boy. Was that voluntary? You were born white (I guess). Was that? Did you choose your mom and dad? I bet you you were born a member of the Mormon Church, as a matter of fact. Did you pop out of your American, Mormon mother's belly and proclaim, "Hi, Mom, I want to be a Mormon like you?" Your claim is asinine.

 

I told you I became a member of the church when I was old enough to understand what that entailed and make the decision for myself. I  was not a member the moment I was born.

 

Now please answer my question.

 

I was deemed a citizen of the United States of America the moment I was born. How was that voluntary on my part?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #529 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now explain how that's a parallel to the United States.

The government has a monopoly on many services, preventing competition in the free market.

Mail delivery, for example. Want a piece of mail delivered to your mailbox? You must use the USPS. There are no other alternatives.

A man named Lysander Spooner once created a successful competitor to the USPS. His company delivered mail more efficiently and at lower cost. The government shut it down.

You don't want to use the USPS? Too bad. Oh, and we're going to take money out of your paycheck to pay for it, too. Don't want to pay for it? We'll send men with badges and guns to force you to pay.

Isn't that convenient? You have to pay taxes because you use our services. Yet we're the only ones providing those services because we have a monopoly on them and prevent the free market from competing with us.

On top of that, we can't even break even on most of the services we provide because we don't have to compete with anyone and we are under no obligation to improve our services or deliver them more efficiently.
Another asinine claim. First of all you can use FedEx, UPS, or any number of private courier services and no one will stop you from creating your own in this day and age, or you can get on your bicycle and deliver the letter yourself, or ask the sending party to do the same. Or... as I've explained a million times and been ignored, you can voluntarily limit your income so that you pay zero income tax. Or you can move to another country and revoke your citizenship. You CAN, but you don't WANT TO. You actually like the services and opportunities your country provides. You just don't want to pay for them.
Edited by tonton - 1/22/13 at 9:16pm
post #530 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You were born a boy. Was that voluntary? You were born white (I guess). Was that? Did you choose your mom and dad? I bet you you were born a member of the Mormon Church, as a matter of fact. Did you pop out of your American, Mormon mother's belly and proclaim, "Hi, Mom, I want to be a Mormon like you?" Your claim is asinine.

I told you I became a member of the church when I was old enough to understand what that entailed and make the decision for myself. I  was not a member the moment I was born.

Now please answer my question.

I was deemed a citizen of the United States of America the moment I was born. How was that voluntary on my part?
Nothing is voluntary on your part when you're born. Nothing. Not what your sex is, or your race, not who your parents are, not whether you have all your limbs and digits... And everything else is voluntary on your parents' part... What kindergarten you go to, what you eat for breakfast, what clothes you wear... and yes... What country you're a citizen of.

Now you say you weren't a Mormon when you were born? That's funny... because the Mormon Church counts infants in its membership numbers if the parents are church members.
post #531 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Another asinine claim. First of all you can use FedEx, UPS, or any number of private courier services and no one will stop you from creating your own in this day and age, or you can get on your bicycle and deliver the letter yourself, or ask the sending party to do the same. Or... as I've explained a million times and been ignored, you can voluntarily limit your income so that you pay zero income tax. Or you can move to another country and revoke your citizenship. You CAN, but you don't WANT TO. You actually like the services and opportunities your country provides. You just don't want to pay for them.

Private couriers can deliver mail to my mailbox? Really?

And I've already stated that I believe the free market can better provide most services currently under government monopoly. Don't presume to tell me what I like and don't like.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #532 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Nothing is voluntary on your part when you're born. Nothing. Not what your sex is, or your race, not who your parents are, not whether you have all your limbs and digits... And everything else is voluntary on your parents' part... What kindergarten you go to, what you eat for breakfast, what clothes you wear... and yes... What country you're a citizen of.

Now you say you weren't a Mormon when you were born? That's funny... because the Mormon Church counts infants in its membership numbers if the parents are church members.

Thank you for conceding that I was NOT voluntarily deemed a U.S. citizen.

And once again, your information about my church is incorrect. The church does include children on their records, but does not include them in the membership numbers. They are sometimes referred to as "children of record".

You should probably pick another aspect of my life to personally attack me on, as this hasn't worked out well for you.

You do not become a member of the church unless you are baptized, and we do not baptize little children because they cannot understand what it entails and make the decision for themselves.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #533 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Private couriers can deliver mail to my mailbox? Really?

 

Nope.

 

And the USPS has a legal monopoly on the delivery of 1st class mail.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #534 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Another asinine claim. First of all you can use FedEx, UPS, or any number of private courier services and no one will stop you from creating your own in this day and age, or you can get on your bicycle and deliver the letter yourself, or ask the sending party to do the same. Or... as I've explained a million times and been ignored, you can voluntarily limit your income so that you pay zero income tax. Or you can move to another country and revoke your citizenship. You CAN, but you don't WANT TO. You actually like the services and opportunities your country provides. You just don't want to pay for them.

Private couriers can deliver mail to my mailbox? Really?
Sure. Just make your "mailbox" a slot in your door. Easy.
Quote:
And I've already stated that I believe the free market can better provide most services currently under government monopoly. Don't presume to tell me what I like and don't like.
Well, if you don't like it, there are many alternatives. Be honest. You may not like it, but you believe it's the best option currently available to you, or you would make another choice. It is certainly not the ONLY option currently available to you, as you would dishonestly claim.
post #535 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Sure. Just make your "mailbox" a slot in your door. Easy.

 

No. I prefer to have mail delivered to my mailbox and I don't want to put a hole in my door.

 

Besides, could I have ALL my mail delivered to that hole in my door exclusively by a private service? No.

 

 

Quote:
Well, if you don't like it, there are many alternatives. Be honest. You may not like it, but you believe it's the best option currently available to you, or you would make another choice. It is certainly not the ONLY option currently available to you, as you would dishonestly claim.

 

I want mail delivered to my mailbox. That is my preferred receptacle for incoming mail. The USPS is the only organization that can deliver mail to my mailbox because the government has a monopoly on that service. It is the ONLY option currently available to me if I want mail delivered to my mailbox.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #536 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Sure. Just make your "mailbox" a slot in your door. Easy.

No. I prefer to have mail delivered to my mailbox and I don't want to put a hole in my door.

Besides, could I have ALL my mail delivered to that hole in my door exclusively by a private service? No.

Quote:
Well, if you don't like it, there are many alternatives. Be honest. You may not like it, but you believe it's the best option currently available to you, or you would make another choice. It is certainly not the ONLY option currently available to you, as you would dishonestly claim.

I want mail delivered to my mailbox. That is my preferred receptacle for incoming mail. The USPS is the only organization that can deliver mail to my mailbox because the government has a monopoly on that service. It is the ONLY option currently available to me if I want mail delivered to my mailbox.
And I prefer to drive 90 miles an hour on the left side of the road.

What were those words Mick Jagger wrote?

"Freedom" is not the same thing as getting what you want, when you want it, no matter what.

And you do have an other option. Choose a different country, or use a different kind of mailbox. To say using a different kind of mailbox is not a different option is a lie.
post #537 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


And I prefer to drive 90 miles an hour on the left side of the road.

What were those words Mick Jagger wrote?

"Freedom" is not the same thing as getting what you want, when you want it, no matter what.

And you do have an other option. Choose a different country, or use a different kind of mailbox. To say using a different kind of mailbox is not a different option is a lie.

 

You driving 90 miles an hour on the left side of the road poses a danger to yourself and others.

 

Me wanting mail delivered to my mailbox by private carriers does not.

 

Next.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #538 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And I prefer to drive 90 miles an hour on the left side of the road.


What were those words Mick Jagger wrote?


"Freedom" is not the same thing as getting what you want, when you want it, no matter what.


And you do have an other option. Choose a different country, or use a different kind of mailbox. To say using a different kind of mailbox is not a different option is a lie.

You driving 90 miles an hour on the left side of the road poses a danger to yourself and others.
Statistically, yes. But who are you to deny my claim that I'm a trained driver who is skilled enough to do it safely?

Gun ownership in a place where owners don't receive proper training by law is statistically a danger to yourself and others. Statistically. You'll deny it of course, half through willful ignorance of the myriad statistics on the subject, and half through intellectual dishonesty, but it is.
Quote:
Me wanting mail delivered to my mailbox by private carriers does not.

Next.
Statistically, no. But still... There are rules and the rules are there for everyone. Either play by the rules or get out of the playground. Don't force everyone else, everyone else who likes the game as it is, to throw the rules out and play by the rules of anarchy.
post #539 of 735
Thread Starter 
Show us those statistics proving over 100,000,000 gun owners in the U.S. are a "danger to society".
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There are rules and the rules are there for everyone. Either play by the rules or get out of the playground. Don't force everyone else, everyone else who likes the game as it is, to throw the rules out and play by the rules of anarchy.

Ah, I see.

So Martin Luther King, Jr. and his followers should have shut up or moved to another country because everyone else liked the game as it was.

Do we not have a duty to disobey bad laws?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #540 of 735

Take your pick, you selectively ignorant denialist.

 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22gun+deaths%22+%22by+nation%22

post #541 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Take your pick, you selectively ignorant denialist.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22gun+deaths%22+%22by+nation%22

Fine. Don't answer my questions and call me names. That really helps your argument.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #542 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Take your pick, you selectively ignorant denialist.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22gun+deaths%22+%22by+nation%22

Fine. Don't answer my questions and call me names. That really helps your argument.
Jeezus. Ok... I'll post these one at a time from that search and you give me your denialist claims about how having guns in society is not more dangerous than not having them.
post #543 of 735
Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws, severe problems with organized crime, and suicide... but near zero gun violence.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/the-japan-lesson-can-americans-learn-from-the-country-that-has-almost-zero-gun-deaths/
post #544 of 735
Thread Starter 

Great Britain is the violent crime capitol of Europe. But that's okay with you, because they have a low gun crime rate?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #545 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Great Britain is the violent crime capitol of Europe. But that's okay with you, because they have a low gun crime rate?
Now tell me... What is the crime in Great Britain that drives up their crime rate? Be honest.

And yes, it's much better that thugs are fist fighting each other in bars and leaving innocent people alone than what happens in the states.
post #546 of 735
How many six year-olds were murdered in Great Britain in the last decade? How many school teachers? How many shop owners lost their lives and not just the contents of their cash box?

Do you claim the difference doesn't matter? Are you completely devoid of conscience?
post #547 of 735
Not all "violent crimes" are created equal and if you claim otherwise, then you're being disingenuous. A knifepoint robbery or bar brawl is nowhere in the same league as a shooting. Not close.
post #548 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Not all "violent crimes" are created equal and if you claim otherwise, then you're being disingenuous. A knifepoint robbery or bar brawl is nowhere in the same league as a shooting. Not close.

 

According to whom? You? By what standard to you declare this moral truth to be so?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #549 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Not all "violent crimes" are created equal and if you claim otherwise, then you're being disingenuous. A knifepoint robbery or bar brawl is nowhere in the same league as a shooting. Not close.

According to whom? You? By what standard to you declare this moral truth to be so?
It's useless. I speak from the point of view of humanism, where life and humaneness of society trumps the selfish desires of the individual. That doesn't mean we give up all of our rights, or any of the inalienable ones, but it does mean we must make compromises with regard to other rights. We give up the right to drink and drive because of the inherent dangers involved. We give up the right to build bombs because of the inherent dangers involved. We give up the right to drive 100MPH because of the inherent dangers involved.

Humanism is neither conservative nor liberal. it is certainly neither pro-liberty or anti-liberty. it simply puts society above the individual, and not in the same way that communism does. You can be (as I am) a humanist and vehemently pro-capitalist -- capitalism drives incentive. You will never agree with humanism, so it's like talking to a brick wall with you. Your simplistic views that "liberty is the ONLY thing that matters -- **** all else -- shows an inability -- or an unwillingness -- to look deep into all the facets of society, and not just one.
post #550 of 735
Here's the difference. Libertarianism places the concept of liberty above life. Humanism places the concept of life above liberty.
post #551 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Humanism places the concept of life above liberty.

 

Unless you're an unborn child.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #552 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Humanism places the concept of life above liberty.

Unless you're an unborn child.
And that's where science comes in to play, my foolish friend.
post #553 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


And that's where science comes in to play, my foolish friend.

 

Yes, that's why "humanists" spend such an inordinate amount of their time trying not to look at pictures of children inside the womb.

 

Because science is really foremost in their minds.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #554 of 735
I have no problem looking at not only pictures but videos of a first trimester fetus, and aborting that if that's what are the needs of the *very much alive* mother. The first trimester fetus is not a viable life in the view of science.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I mention science. Thanks for proving my point.

Nice red herring though.
post #555 of 735
If the so-called "pro-life" crowd were really interested in reducing abortions, they would insist on early and complete sex education, and easy access to multiple methods of birth control. That's what science tells us works best.
post #556 of 735
Thread Starter 
Without the ability to defend yourself, you are at the mercy of those who would force you to do what they want.

And the unborn are the most defenseless among us.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #557 of 735

You can count the baby not born because you didn't have unprotected sex with your wife tonight as the same loss of life as the baby not born because it was aborted after 11 weeks. Both are a potential life. Neither are a life. Scientific consensus... and oddly enough, in some places the Bible... supports this.

post #558 of 735
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You can count the baby not born because you didn't have unprotected sex with your wife tonight as the same loss of life as the baby not born because it was aborted after 11 weeks. Both are a potential life. Neither are a life. Scientific consensus... and oddly enough, in some places the Bible... supports this.

 

This is not the first time you have brought my wife into the discussion. This is also a bully tactic used by BR. It's despicable.

 

Use "science" to try to rationalize extinguishing a "potential" life all you want. Your double-standard is plain for all to see.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #559 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


It's useless. I speak from the point of view of humanism, where life and humaneness of society trumps the selfish desires of the individual. That doesn't mean we give up all of our rights, or any of the inalienable ones, but it does mean we must make compromises with regard to other rights. We give up the right to drink and drive because of the inherent dangers involved. We give up the right to build bombs because of the inherent dangers involved. We give up the right to drive 100MPH because of the inherent dangers involved.

Humanism is neither conservative nor liberal. it is certainly neither pro-liberty or anti-liberty. it simply puts society above the individual, and not in the same way that communism does. You can be (as I am) a humanist and vehemently pro-capitalist -- capitalism drives incentive. You will never agree with humanism, so it's like talking to a brick wall with you. Your simplistic views that "liberty is the ONLY thing that matters -- **** all else -- shows an inability -- or an unwillingness -- to look deep into all the facets of society, and not just one.

 

Wow...so filled with fallacy, I don't even know where to start.

 

And you will never agree with libertarianism, so it's like talking to a brick wall with you. Your simplistic characterizations of my views shows an inability -- or an unwillingness -- to look deep into them and not just what your caricature allows you to see.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #560 of 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You can count the baby not born because you didn't have unprotected sex with your wife tonight as the same loss of life as the baby not born because it was aborted after 11 weeks. Both are a potential life. Neither are a life. Scientific consensus... and oddly enough, in some places the Bible... supports this.

 

This is not the first time you have brought my wife into the discussion. This is also a bully tactic used by BR. It's despicable.

 

Use "science" to try to rationalize extinguishing a "potential" life all you want. Your double-standard is plain for all to see.

 



FFS... I was using "you" in the rhetorical sense. My apologies for not making that clear. I have no idea if you have a wife. I do. I've also had a vasectomy. I guess that makes me a baby killer.

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