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Libertarianism - Page 18

post #681 of 735
2/19/13 at 11:32pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

Or perhaps he is deluded enough to think that complete anarchy will result in universal prosperity.  I mean, he does believe a lot of other nonsensical things while disbelieving the entire foundation of biology.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #682 of 735
2/20/13 at 3:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or perhaps he is deluded enough to think that complete anarchy will result in universal prosperity.  I mean, he does believe a lot of other nonsensical things while disbelieving the entire foundation of biology.
I don't think so. I think he honestly feels it would be for the greater good to let some people be really really poor and downtrodden. Lower labor costs and all. Who cares if they can't afford bread and water. The rich people will be charitable. Riight.
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post #683 of 735
2/20/13 at 7:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


I don't think so. I think he honestly feels it would be for the greater good to let some people be really really poor and downtrodden. Lower labor costs and all. Who cares if they can't afford bread and water. The rich people will be charitable. Riight.

 

Libertarians believe the greatest opportunity for universal prosperity and happiness lies in freedom rather than slavery - liberty rather than servitude.

 

Libertarians hope for a time when mankind will have progressed beyond the need for government - when the primary form of government is self-government.

 

In order for that to happen, though, the people themselves will have to overcome greed, selfishness, lust, anger, pride, and other destructive and aggressive tendencies. But no matter how hard you try, you cannot bring that change about by force. You just can't. It's been tried to varying degrees since the beginning, and it has never, ever worked.

 

You cannot force people to be charitable, because the minute you deprive them of their agency to make that decision on their own, it ceases to be charity and instead becomes servitude.

 

Libertarians ask: why not try a different approach, for once?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #684 of 735
2/20/13 at 8:00am

Yeah, once social Darwinism separates the wheat from the chaff, everything will be hunky dory, right?

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post #685 of 735
2/20/13 at 2:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, once social Darwinism separates the wheat from the chaff, everything will be hunky dory, right?

 

Actually, absent institutionalized plunder and violence, I think we'd enjoy the greatest period of abundance and prosperity the world has ever known.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #686 of 735
2/20/13 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, once social Darwinism separates the wheat from the chaff, everything will be hunky dory, right?

 

Actually, absent institutionalized plunder and violence, I think we'd enjoy the greatest period of abundance and prosperity the world has ever known.

Except for those who would take advantage of the freedom we have. They don't have to be a government to do that. Oh well! When humans are involved nothing's ever perfect is it?lol.gif1wink.gif

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #687 of 735
2/20/13 at 4:06pm
Yeah, because businesses and individuals never engage in plunder and violence.
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post #688 of 735
2/20/13 at 6:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Except for those who would take advantage of the freedom we have. They don't have to be a government to do that. Oh well! When humans are involved nothing's ever perfect is it?lol.gif1wink.gif

 

Whatever you say, jimmac. 1wink.gif

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #689 of 735
2/20/13 at 6:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, because businesses and individuals never engage in plunder and violence.

 

Please quote me where I said that. Oh, wait. I didn't.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #690 of 735
2/20/13 at 7:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, because businesses and individuals never engage in plunder and violence.

Please quote me where I said that. Oh, wait. I didn't.
You have never ceased to imply it.
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post #691 of 735
2/20/13 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, because businesses and individuals never engage in plunder and violence.

 

The difference, of course, is that governments do it with the support and approval of people like you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #692 of 735
2/20/13 at 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, because businesses and individuals never engage in plunder and violence.

The difference, of course, is that governments do it with the support and approval of people like you.
Except that taxation is not theft, unless you are a conquered people. It is a business transaction. Yes, one that you are bound to, but a business transaction nonetheless. And yes, it is with the representative support of the governed, which is far better than without.
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post #693 of 735
2/21/13 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Except that taxation is not theft, unless you are a conquered people. It is a business transaction. Yes, one that you are bound to, but a business transaction nonetheless.

 

Except that it is is theft and is only a business transaction in the same sense that a mugging is and it is only voluntary in the same way that choosing "life" in a "your money or your life" transaction is voluntary.

 

Plus I notice you left aside the violence part. lol.gif


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/21/13 at 7:19am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #694 of 735
2/21/13 at 6:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Except that taxation is not theft, unless you are a conquered people. It is a business transaction. Yes, one that you are bound to, but a business transaction nonetheless. And yes, it is with the representative support of the governed, which is far better than without.

 

And under what authority or standards is anyone bound to a business transaction that they did not implicitly consent to?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #695 of 735
2/21/13 at 6:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


You have never ceased to imply it.

 

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #696 of 735
2/21/13 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Except that taxation is not theft, unless you are a conquered people. It is a business transaction. Yes, one that you are bound to, but a business transaction nonetheless. And yes, it is with the representative support of the governed, which is far better than without.

 

And under what authority or standards is anyone bound to a business transaction that they did not implicitly consent to?

 

By not retracting your citizenship you've consented.
 

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post #697 of 735
2/21/13 at 2:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

 

By not retracting your citizenship you've consented.
 

 

Answer my question, please.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #698 of 735
2/21/13 at 3:07pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Answer my question, please.

 

He answered. You maintain your citizenship, you consent to taxes. You are also quite free to go off the grid. Speaking of answering questions, you never cited that right-wing gun-advocate site you plagiarized after I asked you for that source many, many times. Again, just pointing out the irony in you demanding answers (despite tonton actually having done so).

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #699 of 735
2/21/13 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, because businesses and individuals never engage in plunder and violence.

 

The difference, of course, is that governments do it with the support and approval of people like you.

Private parties or individuals just do it under the guise of " It's just business ".1wink.gif

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #700 of 735
2/21/13 at 5:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Private parties or individuals just do it under the guise of " It's just business ".1wink.gif

 

Government does it to everyone. 1wink.gif

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #701 of 735
2/21/13 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Private parties or individuals just do it under the guise of " It's just business ".1wink.gif

 

Government does it to everyone. 1wink.gif

So do some individuals and private companies.1wink.gif

 

Just look at what the greedy banking industry did to us. For an example think Goldman Sachs.

 

Remember this : http://erasebadcredit.biz/mortgages/mortgage-loans-goldman-sachs-a-timeline-of-trouble/

 

Or http://mortgagepirates.wordpress.com/

 

This is what not enough regulation or control leads to. But I've already talked about this on this forum and you already know all of this.

 

http://www.sooperarticles.com/finance-articles/loans-articles/burst-housing-bubble-1112079.html

 

So now we're all living with the result.


Edited by jimmac - 2/21/13 at 6:11pm
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #702 of 735
2/21/13 at 6:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So do some individuals and private companies.1wink.gif

 

Just look at what the greedy banking industry did to us. For an example think Goldman Sachs.

 

Remember this : http://erasebadcredit.biz/mortgages/mortgage-loans-goldman-sachs-a-timeline-of-trouble/

 

The greedy banking industry that got bailed out by (*gasp*) the government? 1wink.gif

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #703 of 735
2/21/13 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So do some individuals and private companies.1wink.gif

 

Just look at what the greedy banking industry did to us. For an example think Goldman Sachs.

 

Remember this : http://erasebadcredit.biz/mortgages/mortgage-loans-goldman-sachs-a-timeline-of-trouble/

 

The greedy banking industry that got bailed out by (*gasp*) the government? 1wink.gif

However no matter how you feel about that we're living with the economy of the burst housing bubble precipitated by bad loans that should never have been given. It's called " Predatory lending ".

http://www.foreclosurefish.com/predatorylending.htm

 

An example of what too much freedom can lead to with some individuals or companies.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #704 of 735
2/21/13 at 6:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

However no matter how you feel about that we're living with the economy of the burst housing bubble precipitated by bad loans that should never have been given. It's called " Predatory lending ".

http://www.foreclosurefish.com/predatorylending.htm

 

An example of what too much freedom can lead to with some individuals or companies.

 

Tell it like it is, jimmy! 1wink.gif

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #705 of 735
2/22/13 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

However no matter how you feel about that we're living with the economy of the burst housing bubble precipitated by bad loans that should never have been given. It's called " Predatory lending ".

http://www.foreclosurefish.com/predatorylending.htm

 

An example of what too much freedom can lead to with some individuals or companies.

 

Tell it like it is, jimmy! 1wink.gif

Well someone has to since you're clearly not.1wink.gif

 

Ps. And if you'll look on this thread I'm not the only one so it's not me preaching anything. I can't help it if someone ignores the obvious ( what's incredibly obvious to others ) just because it goes against the grain of their pet philosophy. So in the end it's more like " La, la, la, la! My fingers are in my ears so I'm not listening ". Well I suggest you remember this when you want others to listen to you.1smoking.gif

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #706 of 735
2/26/13 at 3:49pm
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #707 of 735
2/26/13 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Yes - that's how evolution works too. Compared to any kind of organized structure, completely random, unbelievably slow, and with a lot of dead ends and total failures along the way. Pretty much everything we strive to avoid in civilization. I did enjoy the assumption that millions of minds would all be working to solve the same problem though.

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post #708 of 735
2/27/13 at 3:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Why do people who know that you can't plan an economy imagine that they can plan a government, consign it to strict tasks, and keep it limited to those alone? It's not going to happen. No one theorist of "limited government" is actually in a position to limit that government, any more than the same theorist can design what an economy produces. We are all equally as powerless to direct economic affairs as we are to direct civic affairs. People who reject "prescriptivism" for economic life ought to reject the same principle for politics, and thereby conclude that government ought not come into being in the first place.

 

-- Jeffrey Tucker

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #709 of 735
2/27/13 at 9:58pm
I was right there along with that passage until the ridiculous conclusion of the last sentence.

The system is not perfect, so... we should have no system whatsoever!?

That's moronic.
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post #710 of 735
2/28/13 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I was right there along with that passage until the ridiculous conclusion of the last sentence.

The system is not perfect, so... we should have no system whatsoever!?

That's moronic.

 

Unless the very nature and structure of the system in inherently flawed. Then it's not moronic.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #711 of 735
2/28/13 at 7:58am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Much less flawed than utopian dreams of anarchy. What you lack is any sense of pragmatism.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #712 of 735
3/1/13 at 11:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Government is an agency of legitimized coercion. The special characteristic that distinguishes governments from other agencies of coercion (such as ordinary criminal gangs) is that most people accept government coercion as normal and proper. The same act that is regarded as coercive when done by a private individual seems legitimate if done by an agent of the government.

 

-- David Friedman, The Machinery of Freedom

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #713 of 735
3/4/13 at 3:52pm
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #714 of 735
3/4/13 at 7:31pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

Jazz's argument: If it is a good idea, it does not require force.

Contrapositive: If it requires force, it is not a good idea.

 

Not polluting the environment is a good idea.

People still pollute, though force has curbed it.

Not polluting the environment has required force.

 

But that means, according to Jazz's argument, that not polluting the environment is not a good idea.  This contradicts the established idea that not polluting the environment is a good idea.

 

Hence, via proof by contradiction, Jazz's original argument is nothing more than banal Libertarian bullshit.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #715 of 735
3/4/13 at 7:48pm
His little quip is simplistic idiocy that ignores the facts of reality, just like his entire philosophy.

I guess self-defense is not a good idea. Of course he doesn't mean that, but this is what it comes down to when you oversimplify.
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post #716 of 735
3/5/13 at 11:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Only a public trusting of elite judgment and expertise would abide a system built on just the kinds of subjugation that the American ruling elite hypocritically claimed to defy in two world wars.

 

-David S. D'Amato, Economic Fascism and the Power Elite

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #717 of 735
3/5/13 at 1:27pm
Ignoring the fact that we have a representative constitutional system based on checks and balances and basic rights. How typical.
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post #718 of 735
3/5/13 at 2:07pm

Ignoring the fact that our representative constitutional system has been hijacked by special interests and the constitution is regularly circumvented or so loosely and broadly (or tightly and narrowly) interpreted on certain matters that it fails to have any restrictive characteristics in reality and the checks and balances are frequently circumvented or exist only as a formality or technicality all while the basic rights rights of life, liberty and property are regularly infringed upon when convenient to do so. How typical.

 

P.S. Who is "we?" You don't even live here!


Edited by MJ1970 - 3/5/13 at 2:25pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #719 of 735
3/5/13 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ignoring the fact that our representative constitutional system has been hijacked by special interests and the constitution regularly circumvented and the checks and balances frequently circumvented or exist as a technicality only and while the basic rights rights of life, liberty and property are regularly infringed upon. How typical.

P.S. Who is "we?" You don't even live here!
Do I not have a country now?

And have you lost your right to vote, hold office, speak, publish and protest?
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post #720 of 735
3/5/13 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Do I not have a country now?

 

You do: Hong Kong.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And have you lost your right to vote, hold office, speak, publish and protest?

 

Not at all. Why do you ask? What is your point?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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