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Google sets sights on enterprise, education with subscription 'Chromebooks' - Page 4

post #121 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Yep mstone...good points! But if I had a 12 year old daughter, I'd prefer her working on an iPad2 than a google netbook. In spite of the iPad2's limitations!

Is this an emotional response or are there substantive reasons for your preference?

(just playing devil's advocate here...)
post #122 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.

I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.

His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."

You're confusing the words attitude and opinion. Dick expressed his opinion and it differed from jetz, but they are both allowed their opinion. Jetz attitude in his comments were continually rude. I'll stipulate for the sake of argument that Dicks opinion is wrong as a three dollar bill, that doesn't make him a jerk.
Even if he writes it off after multiple commenters try to change his mind, not a dick move at all. He's should be allowed his opinion just as much as anyone.

I'll give you elitist and demeaning. But he turned the other cheek several times. Jetz had it comin to him.
post #123 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I did get pissed off at being continually put down (look at the responses to my posts).Please, read through my posts carefully and let me know -- I do try to use reason and persuasion and try and avoid name calling... but after a while...

If I came across as "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" -- I didn't mean to, and will attempt to correct this.

I do enjoy the reasoned discussions at AI.

I think you've handled the subject well, taking a fair amount of abuse along the way. Name-calling and dismissive comments never make a discussion better.

I do think you might have a different view of the Chrome OS once you have an opportunity to try it and then think for a couple of days about how it might work in a learning environment. You did see the download links I posted, correct?

In any case, don't reduce your forum etiquette to meet the lowest common denominator. If someone feels the way to "win" is to toss a few insults your way, so be it. Those posters aren't going to allow anything you say change their pre-conceived ideas anyway so no reason to get down in the gutter with them.
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post #124 of 372
Here. How about we base on discussion on real sources.

Here's what it does:


http://www.google.com/chromebook/#


Here's how much it costs:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...me-os-laptops/

And here's the subscription model that people are discussing:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/e...ns-might-have/

There's more to it, than the cursory thought that AI gave.
post #125 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

Gradeschoolers would most likely use a desktop system as the potential for accidents would be signifigantly less (less spills, drops, being stepped on, etc)

And if they were looking at mobile options, something like a Chromebook would still be a better option than an iPad. Think about it. What school board would think it a good idea to give elementary aged kids a big glass screen and ask them to type on it? A netbook form factor provides more protection.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/g...ion-of-chrome/

Desktops are likely coming too.
post #126 of 372
Maybe it is time to resurrect the "I'm a Mac" Ads. PC guy could show up dressed in a raincoat and dark glasses saying he's joined Google because of all the cool spy gear they gave him. Mac guy could become "iPad Guy".

I'm sure there would be a ton of creative and funny angles on comparing the two on privacy. Data mining and Ads is Google's Vista. Time to turn up the heat.....

Any funny ideas for "Google Guy" versus "iPad Guy" Ads?
post #127 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

For starters, that's not what I said. I said that the monthly payment would be the same - and a desktop system would have a LOT longer useful life than one of those Google chapbooks.

Which is why the monthly cost includes hardware upgrades. So "Useful life" is meaningless.

Quote:
But, have it your way. With about 30 seconds of effort, I found:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-s5753w-b/16472514

OK, It's an Athlon dual core rather than a C2D and 3 GB rather than 4, but it will perform very much the same. A little more effort would probably find one for about the same price, anyway.

If you've used a walmart bargain computer, you'd know that it wouldn't perform "Very much the same." ChromeOS is built from the ground up to operate on leaner hardware. Windows wasn't.


Quote:
The fact that you have no business experience and therefore don't have any concept of how quickly a few wasted hours of "how do I do this" easily wipes out a few pennies a month in savings is YOUR problem, not mine.

Most companies are using 11 year old tech. They NEED to upgrade to stay relevant. So it's not a question of IF they have to relearn new tech, it's a question of WHAT tech they'll be learning.

Quote:

Oh, and that doesn't even get into the MASSIVE security issues of letting Google run your business for you. I can see it now - all your confidential information goes to the highest bidder.

Assuming you ignore Google's own privacy policy, you would have a point. But if you're going to break out the tin foil hats, it's kinda pointless to have a discussion with you.


Quote:
So you're now confused with the difference between hardware and software? I'm not surprised.

So the fact that Google has experience with software now makes them experts in hardware? Are you REALLY that stupid?

Google's not making the hardware, PC companies are. It helps if you read the press briefing before hating it.


Quote:
Only the stupid ones. The iPad was a completely different story. The iPad was a new paradigm which had massive advantages for the subset of people who wanted the ultimate in mobility for a media consumption device.

A potential that was not realized until AFTER it was already in the hands of consumers. It wasn't "only the stupid ones" who doubted the ipad when it first launched. Quite a few people did, including people who are now strong advocates of the platform.

Quote:
The Google crapbook has no advantages at all for the office environment:
- Portability is not an advantage for the office environment, it's a disadvantage because of theft
- It doesn't save any money compared to leasing real PCs
- It requires users to learn a new way of working and throw away their existing tools
- It gives Google access to all your corporate secrets

-Chromebooks are more secure than traditional laptops because the information is not stored locally. So if a device is stolen, the device cost is lost, not the information. And portability is huge for a lot of businesses and schools. Samsung is also making a desktop client if portability isn't required. (again, reading helps)
-You have hard numbers for this? I doubt it.
-Yes, it's more convenient to rely on 11 year old technology, it's just not practical to do so. Google, Apple, Microsoft, and every other major Software company is moving towards cloud based technology at the very least, if not a totally new way of approaching workflow. The advent of Email also required a serious relearning of workflow, but would we be better off if everyone used snail mail?
-Either put the tinfoil hat away, or stop asking for people to take you seriously.

Quote:
There's absolutely no advantage to switching from a $25 / month PC to a $25 / month crapbook for the office environment. So far, no one has given any rational basis for that switch.

Because you don't understand the advantages. That's ok though. People hated cars too.

Quote:
One MIGHT be able to make such an argument if you're comparing mobile workers, but netbooks are already in that space - so what's the advantage of the crapbook over a netbook? Heck, if you want such limited functionality with a keyboard, you can buy a lot of netbooks for under $400 - and they are fully functional computers not Google Data Entry Terminals.

If you call a $400 netbook fully functional you've never used one. Period. They suck for just about everything but portability, and even there only provide marginal benefits over a laptop. It's one of the reasons the ipad saw such rapid adoption. It was priced similar to a netbook, but it didn't suck.

Both listed Chromebooks offer full size keyboards, which net books don't. Their OS was also designed with the hardware in mind, Netbook software was not, so the performance on Chrome OS will be a heck of a lot better than a $400 netbook.
post #128 of 372
So basically, if you want to buy a ton of these for your business or school, you are locked into a 3 year contract. That's a minimum of $720 per machine for education and $1008 for business. For a machine with specs the same or worse than a 16GB iPad - but one that can't install local Applications. Hmm.

I guess the argument must be that support costs drop - but of course they will, if the machine can't run the bespoke software your school or business has created and relies on.

Oh, and Google Apps - thats extra $$ too...

Oh, and 3G, that's another $108 over the contract too...
post #129 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?

Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.

And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.

Boy, are you a dumb shit.

Dick uses logic and experience. What do you use... just logic??!! ... and not that logical, actually.

If Dick had made a mistake, which he didn't, he'd get several passes... you on the other hand haven't come anywhere close to cutting your teeth on this forum and deserve to be kicked to the curb the minute you veer off the road of good sense.

In conclusion... just because you believe yourself to be some genius, don't think for a minute that you've got the attention or respect of other forum members. Dick doesn't need to have you buy anything from him.

I wouldn't have called you sonny... I would have called you punk.

... and I don't give a rat's ass if I'm elitist or demeaning.

(oh ya... fire away... I won't be reading your response)
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post #130 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Obviously including you.



They're already leasing hardware. For the same $28 / mo, they're getting a decent desktop system that runs all their existing software and that doesn't require them to retrain their employees or lose productivity while the employee tries to figure out how to make the thing work. Not to mention no need to take a risk on an unproven platform from an unproven hardware vendor.

What possible advantage is there? The overwhelming majority of enterprise computers are desktops, so the portability is actually a DISadvantage.

And the small number of people who do need portable computers will probably not find these sub-netbook systems to be suitable.

As a consultant (not IT), I work in many big corporations each year and while I agree that they mostly use desktops (though large cadres of people are now being given laptops and docking stations so they can telecomute etc.) most of the desktops are horror shows. Underpowered old things. And what are they increasingly trying to run - MS Virtual Desktop - a nightmare kluge of heavy technologies trying to local cloudify employee experience exactly the same as Google is offering here. Login to any machine and it become yours - except that it is deathly slow, massively buggy and hated by most staff. Google could offer multi-tenant clouds (where data is private from them and other users) like Amazon S3 and so many other hosting providers do. and suddenly we have a fool- and IT Pro-proof infrastructure for most users.

The majority of the negative views coming out here seem to be from people either talking as IT nerds (who have too steep requirements for this) or IT pros who totally fear this cloud future full of $99 swapable hardware. The Samsung ChromeOS desktop is little more than a cross between and ATV1 (netbook spec, local storage) and ATV2 (tablet spec, all cloud). If student or employee content is held in a private cloud, leased by google to the firm and all corporate/campus web apps work on the little Chrome machine then what is wrong with this a a general purpose future for the majority of non-power users? It is the return of the terminal in smarter form.

All the students I know (neighbors kids. relatives, godchildren etc.) are all general or humanities students and most of them already use Google Docs exclusively for their work. It is free (parents love it), the dog can't eat it the homework, works offline in a pinch and it is powerful enough to produce school work - all on whatever hand-me-down machine they have. The college freshman with the shiny Mac is a nice picture but many cannot afford this and not the additional software afterwards. MS Word may be a standard but as long as you can spit out word compatible files and know how to do basic word-processing, formatting etc. you don't need it.

As others have said - this is not coming after tablets - this is coming for Windows. I say let it.

PS If Apple were to compete (which makes little business sense), they would buff up an ATV2 to ipad2 specs with a smidge more local storage to run a cloudified iOS (v6?)
post #131 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by joindup View Post

So basically, if you want to buy a ton of these for your business or school, you are locked into a 3 year contract. That's a minimum of $720 per machine for education and $1008 for business. For a machine with specs the same or worse than a 16GB iPad - but one that can't install local Applications. Hmm.

I guess the argument must be that support costs drop - but of course they will, if the machine can't run the bespoke software your school or business has created and relies on.

Oh, and Google Apps - thats extra $$ too...

Oh, and 3G, that's another $108 over the contract too...

$720 gets you the Book, tech support, software support and an upgraded book should yours no longer support the software. It also gives IT administrators a device with Sandboxing built in at the OS level. It also gives you warranty, so add in Applecare to your costs.

-locally stored apps are a non-starter as web apps can work offline, and the ability to log into your account from ANY chromebook is a pretty big boon over a traditional computer.

-why is everyone comparing this to an ipad? This is not meant to compete with an ipad, or a high end laptop. It's there to replace budget laptops/netbooks with a device that offers a superior experience for web content, which is the only reason to get a low end computer. people don't buy a NETBOOK for heavy video editing.

Google Apps is free for smaller organizations, and it's dirt cheap (compared to other solutions) for larger companies. As others have stated, a lot of companies use Google Apps no matter what their machines are, so the cost isn't really a factor.
post #132 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I think you've handled the subject well, taking a fair amount of abuse along the way. Name-calling and dismissive comments never make a discussion better.

I do think you might have a different view of the Chrome OS once you have an opportunity to try it and then think for a couple of days about how it might work in a learning environment. You did see the download links I posted, correct?

In any case, don't reduce your forum etiquette to meet the lowest common denominator. If someone feels the way to "win" is to toss a few insults your way, so be it. Those posters aren't going to allow anything you say change their pre-conceived ideas anyway so no reason to get down in the gutter with them.

I didn't see the download links for Chrome. I'll go back and find them.

I do use a browser a lot, but don't use a lot of cloud apps -- Apple doesn't have a good offering, and I try to make as little information as possible available to outsiders (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, etc.).

I have a long and positive experience with Apple (33 years).

I have a very negative Personal experience with Microsoft.

I have a continual frustration with Google -- opening analytics windows in my browser, etc. Also I do not like their attitude as publicly stated -- paraphrased: "If you don't want us to know about it, you shouldn't be doing it". I have a very real problem with that.


That said, Apple certainly could make a ChromeBook-like device, running an iOS/Lion hybrid with cloud and/or local apps (iWork). They could easily change iWork apps to be MS (or whatever) compatible format, and get their cloud act together.


That would alleviate most of my issues...


Except, I am still not convinced that an AppBook makes sense -- even though the AppBook would have all the apps and capabilities of the iPad from day 1.

I am retired -- so I can't tell what I would do if still active in business-- but from what I know, I suspect I would use:

-- a desktop for heavy lifting (at least the heavy lifting that I do)
-- an iPad for most personal and most business mobility
-- a laptop for mobility - only where necessary - where the iPad is inadequate

Where does a ChromeBook or an Apple equivalent fit in that use pattern.

I don't know!
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post #133 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Boy, are you a dumb shit.

Dick uses logic and experience. What do you use... just logic??!! ... and not that logical, actually.

If Dick had made a mistake, which he didn't, he'd get several passes... you on the other hand haven't come anywhere close to cutting your teeth on this forum and deserve to be kicked to the curb the minute you veer off the road of good sense.

In conclusion... just because you believe yourself to be some genius, don't think for a minute that you've got the attention or respect of other forum members. Dick doesn't need to have you buy anything from him.

I wouldn't have called you sonny... I would have called you punk.

... and I don't give a rat's ass if I'm elitist or demeaning.

(oh ya... fire away... I won't be reading your response)

I realize that people who live alone on islands have no social skills but that means you should check your spewings as though you were a normal human being and not a little bile factory as you seem to be.

Anyway, Dick and others have put forward their points based on experience but I would suggest that asking the stable and feed guys in 1890's New York what the requirements for transportation in 20 years time would be is about as useful. I work with IT guys all the time who are the least forward thinking, most jobsworth folks around (not all but many) who naturally think about the past and their jobs more than the users and the future. If we've learned anything from Apple (and now Google) it is about skating to where the puck is going, not where is was or even is.

In getting new corporate systems developed and deployed (even simple ones like social business collaboration platforms), the most resistant people to the new solution are typically IT. Case in point - we put in Jive SBS to drive community, communication and collaboration in our company. That was over the massive objections of IT who wanted either the IBM or MS horror shows since they were nerdy, needed lots of customization and would still keep users dependent on IT for most things. Business won, we got Jive, and 18 months later shut down swathes of redundant IT in legacy systems and a load of data-center capacity that we now let the vendor host at much lower cost. IT guys were mostly redeployed to other things and business is vastly happier with their solution.

Thin client, cloud computing is where the puck is going no matter how much people shout about the past. MS knows it, Apple knows it, Google knows it. They all just have differing starting points to get there.
post #134 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I have a continual frustration with Google -- opening analytics windows in my browser, etc. Also I do not like their attitude as publicly stated -- paraphrased: "If you don't want us to know about it, you shouldn't be doing it". I have a very real problem with that.

Just a quick note on this. if this is the quote I'm thinking it is, it was taken wildly out of context. They were talking about privacy online and Google said (correctly) that you cannot assume that anything posted online is "private." Furthermore, they were referring more to people complaining because embarrassing content was showing up in Google searches because the user uploaded it to some website (like facebook) and then got pissed when an employer found it because they googled their name.

(It was around the same time that Eric jokingly suggested that minors get a "new online ID" when they turned 18, right?)

Privacy is really important. But I think it's too easy for people to blow the issue out of proportion. Look at all the FUD about iphone tracking for example. People took what was essentially a bug report, and it's blown up into a political/financial scandal. I agree with Steve Jobs on this one, Companies have done a poor job informing customers about how privacy works online, and I'm hoping Apple and Google can put something out about it really soon. (and that it WONT just be potshots.. fanboy parades are not what we need, knowledge is)

Yes, Google collects a lot of data about me. But on the same token, they provide me with easy ways to opt out of that collection, and to delete the information they already have on me. For me, they've proven to be decent stewards of that data, and I'm ok with how they use it because of the services it provides me. I also don't have an issue with Apple knowing my musical preferences because they're not selling ME. Both companies are selling aggregate information.

Contrast that to Facebook, which steals your contacts phone numbers and links them to their Facebook profiles without informing your friends that they are doing so. or that Facebook has sold user uploaded pictures to advertisers. I've cut down my facebook page to the bare minimum it can be, but they STILL gather data on my based on the preferences of what my friends like. The only reason I have it is because I have a few friends who I can only get ahold of via facebook chat. If you want a company that uses your data in a way that is unambiguously evil, I personally say look at Facebook.
post #135 of 372
So are rental textbooks. When I pay for text/graphix/music/video etc. It now belongs to me to save, share (in legal means), or archive. Subscriptions do not allow for this and are just cash cows for greedy corporations.





Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Google announced on Wednesday that it will offer subscription "Chromebooks" running its Chrome OS Web-based operating system at a cost of $28 per month for business users, and $20 per month for students.

Google made the announcement to developers at its I/O 2011 conference, where it showed off two Chromebook hardware options launching this June. Samsung will sell a ChromeOS-powered computer with a 12.1-inch screen and instant-on capabilities for $429, or $499 with 3G connectivity, while Acer has a 11.6-inch model starting at $349.

But business and education customers will be able to bypass standard purchasing options and instead subscribe to Chrome OS. The search giant announced that government and small business customers will be able to subscribe for $28 per month, while students will pay $20 per month.

Paying a monthly fee will allow Google to offer a complete hardware and service package that includes the hardware, technical support, warranty, and replacements. And when the hardware lifecycle is over, Google will automatically upgrade users to new hardware at no extra cost.

Google Chromebooks from Samsung. Google I/O photos via Gizmodo.

The new Chromebooks will be available starting June 15 in the U.S., France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, U.K. and Italy. Subscription plans will also be available for schools, businesses and governments in June.

Google Chrome OS Web applications. Google I/O photos via Gizmodo.

Google showed off Chrome OS to attendees on Wednesday, pitching the new operating system as a browser-based solution that offers "Nothing but the Web." But content such as word processors and games like Angry Birds will be accessed within the browser, and can even be accessed when the device is not connected to the Internet.

Google also showed off the Chrome Web store, and revealed that it would take a flat fee of 5 percent from all transactions, leaving developers with 95 percent. That's higher than the 30 percent cut that Apple takes from App Store transactions for the iPhone and iPad.
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post #136 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Here. How about we base on discussion on real sources.

Here's what it does:


http://www.google.com/chromebook/#


Here's how much it costs:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...me-os-laptops/

And here's the subscription model that people are discussing:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/e...ns-might-have/

There's more to it, than the cursory thought that AI gave.

Just as I said. It's a crapbook that's more expensive than a netbook that does a LOT more.

And more expensive than a MUCH more powerful desktop that would be more appropriate for the majority of educational or enterprise applications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

As a consultant (not IT), I work in many big corporations each year and while I agree that they mostly use desktops (though large cadres of people are now being given laptops and docking stations so they can telecomute etc.) most of the desktops are horror shows. Underpowered old things.

So you're advocating replacing them with an even MORE underpowered thing? And one that costs more?
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post #137 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by derev View Post

So are rental textbooks. When I pay for text/graphix/music/video etc. It now belongs to me to save, share (in legal means), or archive. Subscriptions do not allow for this and are just cash cows for greedy corporations.

This isn't an e-subscription. This is a HARDWARE subscription. Something that a lot of companies already do because it outsources support.

I think you missed the point of the article.
post #138 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

Thin client, cloud computing is where the puck is going no matter how much people shout about the past. MS knows it, Apple knows it, Google knows it. They all just have differing starting points to get there.

Mmm... I suspect that what you say is true -- to some extent.

There is some future for thin clients and cloud computing.


However, I don't believe it is compelling and as imminent as you think.


There are many big issues to be resolved -- if only security and access to the data.


While you belittle the past, we can often gain some perspective from it.


Except for price and technology advances -- the thin client/cloud operation is very similar to the [semi-]dumb terminal/mainframe (client-server) operation of the past (ca 1967-1980).

This was largely replaced by the [semi-]dumb terminal/mini operation (ca 1972-1979).

This was then replaced by the standalone microcomputer (ca 1978-1980).

Later, these were networked together on LANs and WANs (ca 1980-).


From the time the microcomputer (personal computer) came on the scene there has been processing and data storage capability on the client side.


I don't know if we will get away from that soon.


Take for example, a Saturday soccer game that generates about 60 GB of video. This has to be ingested and edited for a 2 day turn-around.

1) how do you get that 60 GB raw video to the cloud?
2) how long does it take?
3) how much does it cost to upload?
4) how much does it cost to store on the cloud?
5) are there any apps that can edit that video using a thin client and the cloud?
6) if so how much do they cost -- they are quite processing intensive.
7) can you use dual large-screen monitors on the thin client (like on a Fat client iMac)
8) how much extra time does it take to process over the Internet

Oh, did I mention that there are 2 cameras and 3 soccer games.


Certainly this is a special case.

And the issue is not totally the thin client or the cloud -- rather, much of it is the diameter of the pipe that connects them

But it illustrates that the thin-client/cloud solution is not the be all end all solution for everything.

It may be some day... but not today!


It is interesting that al least 1 major news network uses iMovie-class apps to prep most videos of 20 minutes or less.

Oddly, I can take that soccer game on an 8 GB AVCHD card (expands to 60 GB), plug it in to iMovie, scrub-locate, select and edit a few clips into a highlight video in less than 30 minutes... on a Fat iMac.

The resulting video is usually 50-100 MB and can easily be uploaded to the cloud.
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post #139 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Mmm... I suspect that what you say is true -- to some extent.

There is some future for thin clients and cloud computing.


However, I don't believe it is compelling and as imminent as you think.


There are many big issues to be resolved -- if only security and access to the data.
.

-All tabs (and thus apps) in chrome are sandboxed, if one tab crashes, other's will still be fine.
-On boot, the OS will check itself for errors and corruptions. if they are detected, the OS will install from a known safe backup. If no backup is available it will download it.
-All information on chrome is encrypted as a default.

-Administrators get complete access to information on their networks
-As for personal use, I assume it's similar to Google Dashboard/Gmail/Gdocs
-support for Citrix and VMware out of the box. so, for example, you could access photoshop/any other app from your admin's network if you needed to

I don't think we're there yet for total thin-clients. Video editing is still something that is bandwidth limited. but remember that it's something that is a very special use case. We're not average consumers here. average consumers (like my parents) pretty much ONLY use the computer to get online. Thin clients would be perfect for them.
post #140 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

1) how do you get that 60 GB raw video to the cloud?

Oh, did I mention that there are 2 cameras and 3 soccer games.


Certainly this is a special case.

And the issue is not totally the thin client or the cloud -- rather, much of it is the diameter of the pipe that connects them

But it illustrates that the thin-client/cloud solution is not the be all end all solution for everything.

It may be some day... but not today!

I wasnt going to add anymore to this thread but you keep making these special cases that obviously aren’t suitable for Chrome OS or iOS or Android or anything other than a traditional PC setup. 60 GB of raw video?! Come on!

You also seem to think there is some all-or-nothing concept here and there simply isn’t. There have been very clear areas as to how Chrome OS would be better suited in both utilize and price than other options.

There is no “be all end all solutions for everything” never has been and never will be. You show me such a product and I’ll show you a business opportunity.

You missed this:
We saw a brief demo of the software used on a CR-48, and while the setup was obviously optimized, it worked shockingly well. A backend Windows server had a copy of Photoshop CS5 onboard, and the CR-48 was able to load it within a matter of seconds through Receiver. Not a light model -- we're talking about the full, bona fide version of Photoshop. There are still a lot of reasons this isn’t practical but your arguments aren’t dealing with the practical aspects, your going from one extreme of mobile computing with the iPad to another extreme of heavy CPU usage. Why can’t there be a middle ground for a usage that doesn’t have anything to do with your needs?

The bottom line pretty much everyone on this forum will have absolutely no need Chrome OS as a personal machine, much in the same way I find little utility with the iPad as it sits between my iPhone and 13” MBP, but that doesn’t mean I discount the iPad as a viable computing option.


PS: Calling this a thin client is inaccurate. It can run offline. It read and write to a USB stick or HDD. It’s not a dead duck that can’t do a single task once you have no internet access.
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post #141 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

-All tabs (and thus apps) in chrome are sandboxed, if one tab crashes, other's will still be fine.
-On boot, the OS will check itself for errors and corruptions. if they are detected, the OS will install from a known safe backup. If no backup is available it will download it.
-All information on chrome is encrypted as a default.

-Administrators get complete access to information on their networks
-As for personal use, I assume it's similar to Google Dashboard/Gmail/Gdocs

I don't think we're there yet for total thin-clients. Video editing is still something that is bandwidth limited. but remember that it's something that is a very special use case. We're not average consumers here. average consumers (like my parents) pretty much ONLY use the computer to get online. Thin clients would be perfect for them.

You seem to know a lot about Chrome. Later, I will try and find a link to download the OS -- so I can see for myself.

I keep hearing the "average consumers" argument -- not sure that means a sizeable majority or a small niche.

In our household we have 2 adults and 3 children (11, 12, 15). Maybe we're spoiled, but we could not get buy with just a browser and the web apps that people say will satisfy the "average consumer".

I don't get around much so I have no idea of the usage requirements of typical users.

I support almost anything that will enable users to improve their lives -- the ChromeBook could well be one of them
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post #142 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I wasnt going to add anymore to this thread but you keep making these special cases that obviously arent suitable for Chrome OS or iOS or Android or anything other than a traditional PC setup. 60 GB of raw video?! Come on!

You also seem to think there is some all-or-nothing concept here and there simply isnt. There have been very clear areas as to how Chrome OS would be better suited in both utilize and price than other options.

There is no be all end all solutions for everything never has been and never will be. You show me such a product and Ill show you a business opportunity.

You missed this:
We saw a brief demo of the software used on a CR-48, and while the setup was obviously optimized, it worked shockingly well. A backend Windows server had a copy of Photoshop CS5 onboard, and the CR-48 was able to load it within a matter of seconds through Receiver. Not a light model -- we're talking about the full, bona fide version of Photoshop. There are still a lot of reasons this isnt practical but your arguments arent dealing with the practical aspects, your going from one extreme of mobile computing with the iPad to another extreme of heavy CPU usage. Why cant there be a middle ground for a usage that doesnt have anything to do with your needs?

The bottom line pretty much everyone on this forum will have absolutely no need Chrome OS as a personal machine, much in the same way I find little utility with the iPad as it sits between my iPhone and 13 MBP, but that doesnt mean I discount the iPad as a viable computing option.


PS: Calling this a thin client is inaccurate. It can run offline. It read and write to a USB stick or HDD. Its not a dead duck that cant do a single task once you have no internet access.


I agree with most of what you say.

If it can run offline can it do the things a basic tablet can do of line?

i am not asking for iMovie here, but things like photos, music, as well as the holy trinity.

To me, even the grandparents (long gone now) would want to do iPhoto-like stuff and play music -- the web would have been a problem for all of them -- mail, not so much!
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post #143 of 372
Here is a preliminary hands-on review that does a lot of comparisons to netbooks, which something many of you have been doing in this thread and just assuming the usability would be the same despite the obvious visual keyboard, trackpad and display differences.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...at-google-i-o/
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post #144 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You seem to know a lot about Chrome. Later, I will try and find a link to download the OS -- so I can see for myself.

I keep hearing the "average consumers" argument -- not sure that means a sizeable majority or a small niche.

In our household we have 2 adults and 3 children (11, 12, 15). Maybe we're spoiled, but we could not get buy with just a browser and the web apps that people say will satisfy the "average consumer".

I don't get around much so I have no idea of the usage requirements of typical users.

I support almost anything that will enable users to improve their lives -- the ChromeBook could well be one of them

You're also the family of a computer programmer. they grew up with the technology, and I'm willing to bet that if you found out something cool to do, you'd show them, correct? (I do the same with technology) Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure whenever I have kids I'll do the same thing.

I used to sell cellphones, so I got to interact with the 'average" consumer quite a bit. (people who are into tech largely bought online). With smartphones, I got two questions more than any other. "Is this an iphone" (they think that iphone is a type of device, not a specific one, aka apple iphone, Motorola iPhone) and "Can my phone do Farmville/Angry birds"

For a lot of users, the web is all that matters. take my mom for instance. She's on the computer every night. She checks her email, browses facebook, and reads some news. The only program she uses is Quicken. Her computer is dying and our family was considering getting her a macbook (~1000) since it is a much better (and easier) experience overall. If Chromebook has a nice checkbook client, we might just get her that instead and save $600. Is she getting an equivalent device? No. But will the experience for her be largely the same? Yes. Possibly even better because she won't have to worry about updates.

They're not for everyone, but a growing number of people basically use their computer just for online things. Heck, I'm a pretty heavy user and removing the apps I play online, I use the following products on my computer:
-Windows Media Player (itunes if I need to sync my ipad)
-Portal2 (video game)
-light photo editing software.
-open office for when I need to open a document that someone sends me outside of Gmail/Chrome.
I used to use more, but honestly, most of that has shifted to the cloud. I used to travel a lot with my old job, so I was an early adopter for a lot of the "cloud" technologies. I know that people use their devices for a lot more (like photo editing) but a lot of us just want to get online. I'm debating between getting a tablet or a laptop. I was set on a Transformer, but these offerings make me want to wait for the reviews.

The Chromebook won't take users away from mac, I don't think it will impact tablet sales too much. It's meant squarely at the Netbook environment (and businesses), which I think it's well suited for.
post #145 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Here is a preliminary hands-on review that does a lot of comparisons to netbooks, which something many of you have been doing in this thread and just assuming the usability would be the same despite the obvious visual keyboard, trackpad and display differences.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...at-google-i-o/

This is my next just updated their impressions:

http://thisismynext.com/2011/05/11/s...es-5-hands-on/

Not many details (yet) but some nice pictures.
post #146 of 372
OK, I pride myself in seeing the potential of new technology....

I am still not sold, but am going to do the research.

What is the sales potential of the ChromeBook for 2011 -- assuming ramped up availability for the last 5 months of 2011?

My SWAG estimate (with no knowedge, just intuition) says less than 300,000 devices through Dec 31, 2011.

P.S. I did review the engadget link
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post #147 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

OK, I pride myself in seeing the potential of new technology....

I am still not sold, but am going to do the research.

What is the sales potential of the ChromeBook for 2011 -- assuming ramped up availability for the last 5 months of 2011?

My SWAG estimate (with no knowedge, just intuition) says less than 300,000 devices through Dec 31, 2011.

P.S. I did review the engadget link

This is a comment from engadget I found fitting:
Quote:
you know that time a relation of yours gave you that laptop and asked you to fix it, and you took a look at it and it had internet explorer with half the screen filled with tool bars and 100s of smiley based applications and that fake anti virus?

This computer is for them.
post #148 of 372
Here's an interesting comment in re iPad using the cloud to do heavy processing like video editing:

Quote:
Author: Walt French
Comment:
@Steko, if you look at the competency of the iPad I imagine you'll find very few actual use cases where the cost of shuffling data around is worth the savings in CPU responsiveness. Google is maybe a year or two ahead of Apple in cloud services but I don't see cloud functions exceeding what the A4 is capable of. The cloud is for sharing, synchronizing, ubiquity, not processing e cept for very unusual cases (e.g., SETI).

Intel 3-D Transistors: Why and When?

Does this apply to an ARM or Atom thin client in general?
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post #149 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here's an interesting comment in re iPad using the cloud to do heavy processing like video editing:

Just to be clear, an OS built with WebKit as the UI does not mean that it can only work when connected to the internet. Note the USB ports on Chrome notebooks.

Quote:
Intel 3-D Transistors: Why and When?

Does this apply to an ARM or Atom thin client in general?

I have no idea when this could apply to ARM, but if Intel starts manufacturing ARM CPUs then that could happen in less time.

Its certainly a possibility for Atom once it reaches 22nm. Here is what Anand says about it:
The bigger story here actually has to do with Atom. The biggest gains Intel is showing are at very low voltages, exactly what will benefit ultra mobile SoCs. Atom has had a tough time getting into smartphones and while we may see limited success at 32nm, the real future is what happens at 22nm. Atom is due for a new microprocessor architecture in 2012, if Intel goes the risky route and combines it with its 22nm process it could have a knockout on its hands.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4313/i...ing-in-2h-2011
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post #150 of 372
I don't get it. What's the advantage of this?

It uses commoditized netbook hardware (Atom, 12" screen, no optical, blah blah blah). It uses commoditized software (Google bits will cost money just like MS bits).

Will the TCO be cheaper than netbooks? If you think so, why? I don't see any reason for it be so. There will be viruses and malware on it, they'll just be called extensions or rogue javascript code. Will there be as much as XP? Obviously not, but I don't think it will be anymore than Win7 or Mac OS X.

Will the hardware be more reliable? No I don't think so. It's just commoditize netbook parts. You get what you pay for. Somewhere in the value chain, parts have to be serviced or replaced because there is nothing special about the hardware to make more reliable. It will fail just much a other netbooks and laptops. That service cost will be accounted somewhere.

I agree that virtual storage through the cloud would be nice thing as it automatically gives you a backup, but that really doesn't come fore free. There are inherent push-pull problems with virtual drives as bandwidth is not free. When we get there, with the magic cloud invisibly everywhere, it won't be because it is cheaper, but safer and more convenient. Cloud will be more expensive.

Will it make the netbook form factor any better? Why would it? The netbook form factor "niche" has been defined with it not taking over the world. People want 14, 15, 16 screen sizes on laptops, while netbook devices appears to have stopped at about 10% of the PC market (40m units). If Google and friends want it to be a game changer, I think it needs to be a 14" device minimum.

If it is a game changer, it needs to save money (I'm not seeing this yet) or enable better usage models (I'm not seeing this yet). In the end, it's going to be about Google commoditizing software so that it defuses MS operating system and Office automation monopolies. Don't see where ChromeOS does this. Some say it will be great for Enterprise, but I don't see it. MS has at least a 5 year lead on everyone else with MS Office. It's probably a 10 year lead on Google Docs.
post #151 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Just to be clear, an OS built with WebKit as the UI does not mean that it can only work when connected to the internet. Note the USB ports on Chrome notebooks.


I have no idea when this could apply to ARM, but if Intel starts manufacturing ARM CPUs then that could happen in less time.

Its certainly a possibility for Atom once it reaches 22nm. Here is what Anand says about it:
The bigger story here actually has to do with Atom. The biggest gains Intel is showing are at very low voltages, exactly what will benefit ultra mobile SoCs. Atom has had a tough time getting into smartphones and while we may see limited success at 32nm, the real future is what happens at 22nm. Atom is due for a new microprocessor architecture in 2012, if Intel goes the risky route and combines it with its 22nm process it could have a knockout on its hands.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4313/i...ing-in-2h-2011

I'm not going to research the links but the improvement to Atom is either lower power or more processing... Net, not that big a deal... And 2012 or beyond.

Hey, Sol, I respect your opinion and expertise...

What's your SWAG for ChromeBook sales for 2011?
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post #152 of 372
I work as a counselor for the school district and most of the computers in the labs are Apples of one generation or another. I usually see an iMac sitting at the teacher's desk as they use them for presentation and teaching.

Google's just looking for more eyes to advertise to. Apple truly cares about the student's experience, imho.
post #153 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I'm not going to research the links but the improvement to Atom is either lower power or more processing... Net, not that big a deal... And 2012 or beyond.

Hey, Sol, I respect your opinion and expertise...

What's your SWAG for ChromeBook sales for 2011?

1) I’m not sure how that saying got started but it’s axiomatically false. Future Atom CPUs will be better and you balance both the performance and power usage to get gains in both areas, or push it to the extreme in one or the other areas to equal previous systems in one aspect which therefore maximizing the effect in the other.

2) Thanks, and I yours… even though we don’t always agree.

3) The Acer ChromeBook, Samasung Series 5 notebook and other such machines that will come out this year, like the desktop versions, are difficult to gauge because we’ve never had anything like this before. It could be much like the iPad where its sales potential was greatly underestimated. Even if it does become a hit and, say, take 10% of Windows market share in 5 years it might also take awhile for the enterprise, education, and other consumers see a need for it .

Furthermore, there could be some major issues with the OS that will need to mature. Their app store certainly needs to mature. It will be sold for 7 months of the year and will have the option for monthly payments. Through 2011 that’s about $$140-196 out of pocket. Or $349-$499 paying out of pocket for a consumer.

I’ll weigh in I can see 4-5 million units being sold for calendar 2011. Let’s see who is closer in 2012 using your 300,000 figure. Note they shipped 60,000 CR-48 test machines
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post #154 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

So it is a cheap PC using a traditional mouse / keyboard interface with a very limited OS. This is too little too late piece of junk makes an iPad look like something from the 23rd Century. I really think Google must have started planning this before they thought of copying iOS and somehow forgot to cancel the project. This will be another Beta project that will fizzle out. Google have more chance with Honeycomb, after all there is about 17% or the tablet market to fight over for the iPad copycats.

Schools are far better of with iPads BUT Apple need to beef up educational pricing and apps and ebooks.

except for the whole watsitcalled OH YAH!! typing... these are cheaper to have, maintain etc than An iPad (if you have an Ipad you still need a device students can type on) and also the software that comes with it

This isnot mean to compete with iPad....

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #155 of 372
CrippleBook. That's all I'll say.
post #156 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Im not sure how that saying got started but its axiomatically false. Future Atom CPUs will be better and you balance both the performance and power usage to get gains in both areas, or push it to the extreme in one or the other areas to equal previous systems in one aspect which therefore maximizing the effect in the other.

2) Thanks, and I yours even though we dont always agree.

3) The Acer ChromeBook, Samasung Series 5 notebook and other such machines that will come out this year, like the desktop versions, are difficult to gauge because weve never had anything like this before. It could be much like the iPad where its sales potential was greatly underestimated. Even if it does become a hit and, say, take 10% of Windows market share in 5 years it might also take awhile for the enterprise, education, and other consumers see a need for it .

Furthermore, there could be some major issues with the OS that will need to mature. Their app store certainly needs to mature. It will be sold for 7 months of the year and will have the option for monthly payments. Through 2011 thats about $200 out of pocket.

Ill weigh in I can see 4-5 million units being sold for calendar 2011. Lets see who is closer in 2012 using your 300,000 figure.

<300K vs 4-5 Million... Not to bad a range.

As I learn more, I could move in your direction... Or not.

I did pretty good on iPad 1 at 10 million in CY 2010.

I'm on record for 60 million iPads (1and2) for CY 2011.

Somewhere I read that iPad isn't affecting netbook sales... 'course they didn't count iPad 2 sales...

...I heard that were very smooth...
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post #157 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

.

Will the TCO be cheaper than netbooks? If you think so, why? I don't see any reason for it be so. There will be viruses and malware on it, they'll just be called extensions or rogue javascript code. Will there be as much as XP? Obviously not, but I don't think it will be anymore than Win7 or Mac OS X.

-the entire OS is sandboxed, this means that if something infects one tab, it cannot access the information on your device OR in the other active tabs.
-the OS checks itself on boot for corruption, and will fix automatically
-everything is encrypted as a default.

Quote:
Will the hardware be more reliable? No I don't think so. It's just commoditize netbook parts. You get what you pay for. Somewhere in the value chain, parts have to be serviced or replaced because there is nothing special about the hardware to make more reliable. It will fail just much a other netbooks and laptops. That service cost will be accounted somewhere.

builds have to be sighed off by Google before they're allowed to use the Chrome name. It's not commoditized netbook parts.

Quote:
I agree that virtual storage through the cloud would be nice thing as it automatically gives you a backup, but that really doesn't come fore free. There are inherent push-pull problems with virtual drives as bandwidth is not free. When we get there, with the magic cloud invisibly everywhere, it won't be because it is cheaper, but safer and more convenient. Cloud will be more expensive.

this is assuming bandwidth will stay the same price or increase the opposite is true. And again, this is NOT meant to replace your full computer if you use the computer a lot. IT's meant to add to it, or for those users who do almost everything on the web.

Quote:
Will it make the netbook form factor any better? Why would it? The netbook form factor "niche" has been defined with it not taking over the world. People want 14, 15, 16 screen sizes on laptops, while netbook devices appears to have stopped at about 10% of the PC market (40m units). If Google and friends want it to be a game changer, I think it needs to be a 14" device minimum.

netbooks struggled because of cramped keyboards and because windows sucked on that hardware. This offers a full keyboard, and the software is optimized for the hardware. larger screen resolutions will most likely come. This is the INITIAL RELEASE.

Quote:
If it is a game changer, it needs to save money (I'm not seeing this yet) or enable better usage models (I'm not seeing this yet). In the end, it's going to be about Google commoditizing software so that it defuses MS operating system and Office automation monopolies. Don't see where ChromeOS does this. Some say it will be great for Enterprise, but I don't see it. MS has at least a 5 year lead on everyone else with MS Office. It's probably a 10 year lead on Google Docs.

-It can save companies and schools potentially thousands a year, and reduce headaches considerably.
-Better usage models? you mean like their programs for schools and businesses?
-or the fact that you can access your information from ANY chrome machine? That's a new usage model. Or the fact that you never have to worry about updating your device, or dealing with clearing out space.. also a new usage model.
-This is the Freaking INITIAL RELEASE. It WILL NOT be able to do everything the currently industry leader can out the gate. Seriously, this expectation for everything to be "instantly better" is stupid.
-For how MOST people use MS Office, Google Documents does more than what they need. All the "added" features are for continuously smaller niche markets. And again, it's the freaking initial release. The product was given a launch date and devices TODAY.
post #158 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Somewhere I read that iPad isn't affecting netbook sales... 'course they didn't count iPad 2 sales...

...I heard that were very smooth...

Here are the specs of the Samsung model.

12.1" (1280x800) 300 nit Display
3.26 lbs / 1.48 kg
8.5 hours of continuous usage
Intel® AtomTM Dual-Core Processor
Built in dual-band Wi-Fi and World-mode 3G (optional)
HD Webcam with noise cancelling microphone
2 USB 2.0 ports
4-in-1 memory card slot
Mini-VGA port
Fullsize Chrome keyboard
Oversize fully-clickable trackpad

Higher ppi than 13 MBP though very likely not as good a display.
Lightweight with long battery life (5 hours of continuous video, BTW).
The big things I want to note are the keyboard and trackpad that mirror Apples notebooks. in fact, the reports say its the best trackpad outside of Apples notebooks.

Those are netbook features and the price isnt much higher.

So what are netbook sales projections for 2011? Surely higher than 300k. While this uses the same CPU as a netbook thats pretty much it as you can see from the specs. Could a chromebook put another hurt on the cramped netbooks that take minutes to boot compared to this 8 second boot machine? I think it can. I think it will.
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post #159 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

I don't get it. What's the advantage of this?

Will the TCO be cheaper than netbooks? If you think so, why? I don't see any reason for it be so. There will be viruses and malware on it, they'll just be called extensions or rogue javascript code. Will there be as much as XP? Obviously not, but I don't think it will be anymore than Win7 or Mac OS X.

TCO is not just removing malware and viruses but also things like installing and updating software, applying patches, updating drivers, ...

Companies are already migrating their software into the browser to reduce IT costs. Moving from Windows to ChromeOS is just the final step.
post #160 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

netbooks struggled because of cramped keyboards and because windows sucked on that hardware. This offers a full keyboard, and the software is optimized for the hardware. larger screen resolutions will most likely come. This is the INITIAL RELEASE.

I think you may have defined the market place -- users that didn't want to do much but bought netbooks and Windows got in their way.

What remains to be seen is: did these users really need Windows or will they be satisfied with less capability... That can actually be used.

I have no experience here...

I don't know!

Edit: If a ChromeBook can deliver on the promise of a netbook... Then I can see some real potential!
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