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Google sets sights on enterprise, education with subscription 'Chromebooks' - Page 6

post #201 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

I don't know why people on here are so threatened by this.

I don't know about threatened, but certainly skeptical. This computing model is as old as computing itself. It's not some new thing. It years past, the company's name was Sun or Novell, instead of Google. It certainly works in the right environments and the right orgs. But humanity seems to prefer, need individualized, personalized computing models than cloud computer, client-server or mainframe models.

We will see if it can meet these preferences, needs.
post #202 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

This computing model is as old as computing itself. It's not some new thing.

It's not a blasted thin client! It can be used when not connected to a network.
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post #203 of 372
It occurs to me...

That what Google is attempting to do is wrestle some goodly number of PC users from Windows to non-Widows so that Google can assure that these users use Google Services, free and paid, to satisfy Googles objectives -- to the detriment of Microsoft's objectives.

Whew!

It seems, that in order to do this, Google must supply a combination of online services and offline local apps.


In retrospect, the best time to have done this was several years ago when the XP to Vista transition stalled, then failed.


Meanwhile, it is reported, that Windows 7 is quite good -- even on older or less-powerful machines.


For sake of argument, let's say that Google needs/takes until the end of 2011 to flesh (not Flash) out its ChromeOS, Cloud Apps, Cloud Services, Local Apps, ChromeOS hardware (3rd party) offerings.

Let's assume they do this -- and do it well.

So, come enterprise budget time (Sep-Nov) 2011 they have a pretty good story to tell -- for sales in 2012.


But, what is MS going to do. Do you think they will sit back and do nothing?


Consider:

-- Windows 7 runs quite well
-- Widows Explorer is essentially a browser-like front end to Windows OS (analogous to Chrome OS)
-- Windows 7 already has all the local apps that everyone uses
-- Windows browser (IE) can already access MS or other cloud apps and services

... So, MS has this honkin' OS...

What if MS could offer Windows 7 Fat Client edition that slimmed down the OS system while still supporting the local apps that most people use.

If they so desired, MS could consolidate Windows Explorer with IE for a uniform UX -- that opened an app window in a tab.

What if they could show this in the Sep-Nov 2011 enterprise budget time frame?
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post #204 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Skepticism is warranted.

Sure. And nobody's betting their house on the concept. But come on. Some people are just writing off the idea because of its origins.

Setting aside Google, I think the idea of a web centric OS has merit. Maybe thin clients didn't work out in the past. But we didn't have the connectivity and the processing power we do today.

People talk about what you can't do with this machine. But how many folks here have tried to edit videos with a $300-$400 netbook. Windows on netbooks just plain sucks. It's clearly obvious that a slimmed down OS is needed in that price/performance range.

Whether Chrome OS gains traction or not, is a different story. But kudos to Google for trying.
post #205 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

IT NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A TRADITIONAL COMPUTER FOR THE TRADITIONAL USER!!!

Don’t me drive up there and beat you with a chromebook on June 15th. I’m not that far away!

You won't be able to -- you'll only have an order number (or maybe a ticket)!

But, ca'mon up anyway -- you can have at me with your ChromeBook order acknowledgement -- and I'll wap you with my copy of Google Catalog.. or was it Google Shared Stuff...


Edit: Don't mess with me... I have a genuine PC/jr Chiclet Keyboard!
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post #206 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

What if they could show this in the Sep-Nov 2011 enterprise budget time frame?

If they could, it would be great for users everywhere. The problem is that netbooks suck. And the only reason, most people buy them is to surf the web. Google is simply taking that concept to its logical conclusion. Chrome OS is the ultimate netbook. That's what people are not understanding.

If MS can come up with an optimized Windows version for netbooks, that would be amazing. It would sell really well. But I'm not holding my breath.
post #207 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

It occurs to me...

That what Google is attempting to do is wrestle some goodly number of PC users from Windows to non-Widows so that Google can assure that these users use Google Services, free and paid, to satisfy Googles objectives -- to the detriment of Microsoft's objectives.

Whew!

It seems, that in order to do this, Google must supply a combination of online services and offline local apps.

Yes, a competitor to the low end PC that struggles to run Windows and has no need to run Windows. Their business model is dead simple.

Quote:
In retrospect, the best time to have done this was several years ago when the XP to Vista transition stalled, then failed.

That's like saying the best time for Apple to release the iPhone was a decade earlier. WebKit was ready then. HTML5 and JS wasn't ready then. Chrome OS wasn't then. The 60k CR-48 test books only came out last year.

Quote:
Meanwhile, it is reported, that Windows 7 is quite good -- even on older or less-powerful machines.

It's better than Vista, but neither Windows nor Mac OS are well suited for Atom's performance level. Chrome OS is designed with Atom and ARM in mind, much the way iOS was designed with ARM in mind.

It boots in 8 seconds and apps launch immediately. Jargosta claims that boot time and apl launch times are pointless metrics because they should always be on but we both know that isn't true and thy it will reduce your resources even lore on Atom. Why you think Windows has comparable speed to Chrome on Atom just sounds like you are trying to reasons that don't exist.
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post #208 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's not a blasted thin client! It can be used when not connected to a network.

Really? Says who? Google disagrees with you.

Google's FAQs for Google Apps says that you can only work offline if you have a different app like Outlook.
http://www.uah.edu/itsolutions/about/googlefaqs.pdf
Quote:
Google Calendar is accessible offline if you configure it to use with a desktop client such as Outlook. "
You can continue to work offline as you do now using a client such as Outlook. Additionally, Google offers some offline capability, but please read the information relating to such functionality carefully as it may contain some limitations." (apparently, the only offline functionality involves searching your hard drive, but since your data isn't on the crapbook, that doesn't help.

Quote:
Google Calendar is accessible offline if you configure it to use with a desktop client such as Outlook.

Heck, you can't even use your calendar if you don't have Internet access.

Admittedly, Google says that at some point in the future, they'll have the ability to work offline, but since that hasn't even been demonstrated, one would have to be a truly moronic CIO to authorize switching to a platform on the basis of vague promises.

Another interesting point from this same source:
Quote:
Some data is scanned in order for Google to provide high-quality services such as spam filtering and indexing

Google admits that they're scanning your data.
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post #209 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's better than Vista, but neither Windows nor Mac OS are well suited for Atom's performance level. Chrome OS is designed with Atom and ARM in mind, much the way iOS was designed with ARM in mind.

True, but considering that you can buy a full fledged computer for the same price or less, what's the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It boots in 8 seconds and apps launch immediately. Jargosta claims that boot time and apl launch times are pointless metrics because they should always be on

As usual, since you're losing the argument, you make up claims that no one ever said.

What I said was that if startup time is so important to you that you can let your computer sleep instead of shutting it off. But for most people, startup time is a non-issue. They hit the start button when they come in every morning and then do something else for a couple of minutes.

Not to mention, of course, that it would be truly inane for a CIO to switch his company to the crapbook merely to save a couple of minutes of startup time - considering all the extra expense, loss of security, loss of functionality, and so on that goes with the change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

but we both know that isn't true and thy it will reduce your resources even lore on Atom. Why you think Windows has comparable speed to Chrome on Atom just sounds like you are trying to reasons that don't exist.

"thy it will reduce your resources even lore on Atom"

I was going to make fun of this, but it actually makes just as much sense as most of your other posts.

Why are you still trying to compare Windows on Atom? I've shown repeatedly that you can buy a real laptop with 12-15" screen and multi GHz Athlon or Intel CPU and a few GB of RAM running Windows for the same or lower cost than the crapbook. So why would I care about how efficient CrapOS is?
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post #210 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It boots in 8 seconds and apps launch immediately. Jargosta claims that boot time and apl launch times are pointless metrics because they should always be on but we both know that isn't true and thy it will reduce your resources even lore on Atom. Why you think Windows has comparable speed to Chrome on Atom just sounds like you are trying to reasons that don't exist.

No hidden meaning...

Why does it take 8 seconds to boot? From what?


An iPad takes 30-50 seconds to cold boot,

An iPad takes less than a second to instant ON.

Why wouldn't the ChromeBook have similar specs?

It seems odd!
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post #211 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Really? Says who? Google disagrees with you.

Google's FAQs for Google Apps says that you can only work offline if you have a different app like Outlook.
http://www.uah.edu/itsolutions/about/googlefaqs.pdf

That's a sheet on Google Apps, not Chrome OS.

Google has specifically stated that Chrome OS will have offline functionality for apps like Docs, Calendar, etc.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/22772...ogle_apps.html
post #212 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

If they could, it would be great for users everywhere. The problem is that netbooks suck. And the only reason, most people buy them is to surf the web. Google is simply taking that concept to its logical conclusion. Chrome OS is the ultimate netbook. That's what people are not understanding.

Oh, I understand completely. And I agree with the way you're phrasing it now. Let me choose the highlights in this post:

Quote:
"Netbooks suck."

I agree completely.

Quote:
"Chrome OS is the ultimate netbook"

I agree with that, too.

So the ultimate conclusion is that Chrome OS is the ultimate in suckiness.

I agree 100%.
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post #213 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's not a blasted thin client! It can be used when not connected to a network.

The Acer and Samsung Chromebooks have 16 GB SSDs. After the disk format, OS install, you'll have what, 13 GB? We haven't lived with 16 GB drives in laptops in what 8 years?

Yeah, I think a lot of people's data will reside in the cloud with such limited hard drive space. So, what would one do with it in such a scenario?
post #214 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

No hidden meaning...

Why does it take 8 seconds to boot? From what?

Cold boot. From off. Watch the demos.
post #215 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Oh, I understand completely. And I agree with the way you're phrasing it now. Let me choose the highlights in this post:



I agree completely.



I agree with that, too.

So the ultimate conclusion is that Chrome OS is the ultimate in suckiness.

I agree 100%.


You're trolling and you know it. If I applied the same logic to the iPad before it launched....

Tablets suck.

iPad is a tablet.

iPad will be the ultimate in suckiness.

Would you consider that to have been a fair assessment?

It's clear that Windows based netbooks because Windows is just too obese for a netbook.



I don't even why I bother debating anything with you. You're clear not interested in a fair or reasonable discussion of any sort.
post #216 of 372
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente..._showdown.html

And here is the real battle. This is what Google is prepping for. With Microsoft moving into the Cloud, Google had to move into the OS space. Ultimately, Chrome OS is simply another way for Google to get users onto Google Apps. Just like Android was a way to preserve Google's presence in the mobile space.

That said, you will still be able to use Microsoft's cloud services from any browser. So you'll still be able to use MS Office from a Chrome laptop, if you're willing to subscribe to Office 365/Office Live.
post #217 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

The Acer and Samsung Chromebooks have 16 GB SSDs. After the disk format, OS install, you'll have what, 13 GB? We haven't lived with 16 GB drives in laptops in what 8 years?

Yeah, I think a lot of people's data will reside in the cloud with such limited hard drive space. So, what would one do with it in such a scenario?

Many of the same things a lot of people do with iPads now (which come with 8 GB of storage and a higher price tag), just with a more traditional laptop form factor.

Ironically, this gives a lot of credit to Steve Job's original vision of the iPhone. All apps on the web accessed through a browser.
post #218 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

You're trolling and you know it. If I applied the same logic to the iPad before it launched....

Tablets suck.

iPad is a tablet.

iPad will be the ultimate in suckiness.

Would you consider that to have been a fair assessment?

No. The iPad was nothing like previous tablets - and I wouldn't have even called it a tablet. Now that the iPad is out, the concept of 'tablet' has been redefined around the iPad, so the term applies today, but doesn't apply to what people meant by 'tablet' 14 months ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

It's clear that Windows based netbooks because Windows is just too obese for a netbook.

I agree. That's why I'm comparing Real, live, honest-to-god laptops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

I don't even why I bother debating anything with you. You're clear not interested in a fair or reasonable discussion of any sort.

Sure I am. You're just unable to counter any of my arguments, so you play the 'troll' card.
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post #219 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Many of the same things a lot of people do with iPads now (which come with 8 GB of storage and a higher price tag), just with a more traditional laptop form factor.

Ironically, this gives a lot of credit to Steve Job's original vision of the iPhone. All apps on the web accessed through a browser.

And Apple quickly learned that that was not a very good way to to do it and that it's preferable to have applications run on the device without requiring web access.
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post #220 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

The Acer and Samsung Chromebooks have 16 GB SSDs. After the disk format, OS install, you'll have what, 13 GB? We haven't lived with 16 GB drives in laptops in what 8 years?

Yeah, I think a lot of people's data will reside in the cloud with such limited hard drive space. So, what would one do with it in such a scenario?

*sigh* These can't be serious questions. Hat do you do when you don't have enough internal space on any computer and it's too big to store on the net? You attach a USB connected drive. Don't even try to play that you had no idea it had USB ports or access to external drives.

You guys are really scrapping the barrel now with reasons to hate a product that hasn't launched despite being no threat to Apple and a big threat to chipping away at Windows low end.
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post #221 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

And Apple quickly learned that that was not a very good way to to do it and that it's preferable to have applications run on the device without requiring web access.

More BS. You really think they never conceived of, werent developing the SDK, nor working on the logistics of their App Store policies and practices prior to the release of the iPhone?
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post #222 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

But any smart enterprise manager is not going to turn all of his data over to Google. So the target market is cheap, uninformed IT managers of large corporations who don't care about data privacy.

It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.

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post #223 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.

Today I drove someone to the local job center. They had about 25 PCs for use.
The one I looked it was from 2007. It's retail price then looks to be about $800. Kind of pricey for a very slow machine that only uses the web browser to do all tasks. It's using a lot of power, too. That'll add up. I wonder how much those Chromeboxes will start at?
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post #224 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

*sigh* These can't be serious questions. Hat do you do when you don't have enough internal space on any computer and it's too big to store on the net? You attach a USB connected drive. Don't even try to play that you had no idea it had USB ports or access to external drives.

I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.

The easier answer would simply be to get a larger internal drive. But that kind of defeats the purpose and encourages "not Cloud" type of working environment.

Quote:
You guys are really scrapping the barrel now with reasons to hate a product that hasn't launched despite being no threat to Apple and a big threat to chipping away at Windows low end.

Who cares about Apple. You certainly are excited about this for various reasons. It's obvious some aren't for various reasons. For the most part, both for and against reasons are legitimate.
post #225 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Many of the same things a lot of people do with iPads now (which come with 8 GB of storage and a higher price tag), just with a more traditional laptop form factor.

Ironically, this gives a lot of credit to Steve Job's original vision of the iPhone. All apps on the web accessed through a browser.

iPads have never come in 8 GB storage options. It's 16 GB and up.

No one knows for sure outside of Apple's inner circle what the "original vision" for the iPhone was. It doesn't really apply since the iPhone isn't a cloud computer. It's computer with local storage running tons of native apps with a good web browser, basically like every computer today.

Look, it's fine for what it appears to be. A netbook class computer that primarily serves people whose usage model is web surfing. But, it's still up to debate on whether "cloud" can take over as the dominant computing model.
post #226 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.

This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can’t do jack unless it’s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?

Quote:
The easier answer would simply be to get a larger internal drive. But that kind of defeats the purpose and encourages "not Cloud" type of working environment.

That’s an option. Google is requesting their partners use an SSD for the boot drive for many very obvious reasons, but there is no reason why you can’t have a larger SSD or even an internal HDD in a Chrome-based system. You guys are just finding silly excuses as to why this type of machine has no utility for no one no where in the world despite that utility being clearly pointed out.

Quote:
Who cares about Apple. You certainly are excited about this for various reasons. It's obvious some aren't for various reasons. For the most part, both for and against reasons are legitimate.

Considering the number of comments comparing it to an iPad and Macs apparently plenty of people are scared about what this means to Apple. It really means nothing to them. It has no direct competition with anything they sell. It does however go after MS lower-end which makes up the majority of their OEM sales. There are a lot more than 2 HW vendors tied to this project. If Acer and Samsung are even remotely successful expect to see some additional competition on this.

As I, Jetz and others have stated there is no guarantee this will work. There are a lot of factors and we still need to see how well Google has been with making their code local, making it feel fast the way IOS feels fast on ARM, and with their partners HW and driver creation. Even then the price points and marketing have to work. This is a new system category just like the iPad was despite 3 decades of tablet on the market. If Google did their due diligence then I see this thing a noticeable bite out of Windows OS unless they also come up with an OS based on IE that runs on a fraction of the resources that Windows does.
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post #227 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

It doesn't really apply since the iPhone isn't a cloud computer. It's computer with local storage running tons of native apps with a good web browser, basically like every computer today.

So first one argues that Chrome OS is a cloud OS because it connects to the cloud but iOS isnt a cloud OS despite it also connecting to the cloud. What part of working network free is not getting through? Remember GoogleGears? Remember what it did? Remember why Google dropped it when HTML5 was given localize storage options?

Do you also claim that WebOS is a cloud computer because it, too runs app that are built on WebKit just like Chrome OS. I think you guys are getting hung up on paranoia again Google and some odd idea that WebKit means you actually have to use the kit on the web.
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post #228 of 372
For some of you wondering what Chrome OS looks like and does, Network World put up a slideshow that covers the highlights pretty well.

http://www.networkworld.com/slidesho...1-05-12#slide1
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post #229 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Just as I said. It's a crapbook that's more expensive than a netbook that does a LOT more.

And more expensive than a MUCH more powerful desktop that would be more appropriate for the majority of educational or enterprise applications.



So you're advocating replacing them with an even MORE underpowered thing? And one that costs more?

I am advocating replacing them with almost disposable hardware (that costs less over 3 years than a properly supported Windows machine) using an OS that provides superior cloud-based performance. Most businesses and schools will take the Samsung desktop or similar which is basically a bumped up ATV2 type thing. Hardware will be under $200 and less likely to break than a laptop.

Netbooks with Windows do nothing well - we have spent the last year+ crowing that in support of the iPad. Can't go changing our tune now that someone else has found a different way to undermine them. As we all know, they are underpowered, have terrible keyboards and screen unless you buy one of the more expensive ones. The same CPU with better screen and keyboard under Chrome will be infinitely better than a netbook for the limited set of tasks envisaged in genera business and education use.

Remember - it is horses for courses. The netbook is a nag unfit for any race, the Chromebook/desktop will do well at it's intended distance/race/use.
post #230 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So first one argues that Chrome OS is a cloud OS because it connects to the cloud but iOS isnt a cloud OS despite it also connecting to the cloud. What part of working network free is not getting through? Remember GoogleGears? Remember what it did? Remember why Google dropped it when HTML5 was given localize storage options?

The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.

Quote:
Do you also claim that WebOS is a cloud computer because it, too runs app that are built on WebKit just like Chrome OS. I think you guys are getting hung up on paranoia again Google and some odd idea that WebKit means you actually have to use the kit on the web.

Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.
post #231 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

It is not like they will turn over anything crucial. The corporate accounting and confidential communications are not leaving the security of the in-house data centers. These ChromeBooks are for the cubicle drones writing press releases and office holiday schedules. They are safer than Windows machines and capable of doing those menial tasks that only require minimal applications. Sure Google is data mining but that is assuming these mid-level users have something worthwhile to mine. Furthermore with today's super paranoid Google watchers, they can't get away with any monkey business anyway.

For businesses and education they are charging for the app suite and such which IIRC is not part of the personalized data mining. Companies wouldn't sign up for it, Google isn't foolish enough to make them. They are paying for their part of a private cloud, just like all good enterprise hosting firms do. We run a massive multi-terabyte, constantly growing platform with the software vendor who in turn uses Amazon S3 to host, I believe. It passed our very stringent security screens (certified for confidential commercial and government content) and fully integrated to our industrial grade SSO.
post #232 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.



Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.

The machines and the OS have local storage - you can set all your office files to copy locally if needed. And how often do the corporate or education networks fail at all let alone for a prolonged or meaningful time. Almost never.

WebOS is HP - HP has tons of money and more corporate relationships than any other IT company. If HP is smart this is what they are trying to do so they can sell cheap hardware and profitable service contracts (which is what Google is trying to do). Whoever does it, it seems like the idea has legs.
post #233 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

The part where we left the data in the cloud with no way to access it when networking is off.

I have no idea what that means. If you left your data in the cloud and have no way to access it that’s your fault, but people that want their data local will have their data local just they do now on Windows, Mac OS, Android, iOS and WebOS.

Quote:
Don't really care how a WebOS device is categorized. I'm just as skeptical that they can make a dent in the "education" and "enterprise" businesses as Google can. Probably even moreso since they don't have Google's money machine to leverage off of.

Again, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Categorized? All of a sudden it’s not that an OS with WebKit for the UI is flawed, it’s that it’s only flawed if we’re talking about some sales in education or enterprise? It’s either a viable concept for an OS or its not.

I don’t recall any of these comments about WebOS not being able to work when you didn’t have an internet connection. “But how can you use the phone dialer on EDGE to make a call if you can’t be on the carrier’s voice and data network at the same time?”, “How can you use the built-in calculator if you aren’t getting any service on your phone?”, “How can I play my games, listen to music and watch videos on my Palm Pre when I’m in Airplane Mode?” I don’t recall any such questions about how a WebKit based UI can have offline access to data. Palm made a lot of mistakes, but WebOS was not one of them.


PS: @ Dick Applebaum, One of the hurdles for this project was getting the file association to launch the right web app as the app catalog grows. For instance, if you have a .DOC file that you click on from local or attached storage it will now default to Google docs. But what if you want Office Live, iWork.com or some other web-based editor (locally of course) to open the file? You need a way to tell the system differently. This isn’t as hard to do on an OS, but within a browser this gets a little tricker.
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post #234 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that cant do jack unless its on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?


Thats an option. Google is requesting their partners use an SSD for the boot drive for many very obvious reasons, but there is no reason why you cant have a larger SSD or even an internal HDD in a Chrome-based system. You guys are just finding silly excuses as to why this type of machine has no utility for no one no where in the world despite that utility being clearly pointed out.


Considering the number of comments comparing it to an iPad and Macs apparently plenty of people are scared about what this means to Apple. It really means nothing to them. It has no direct competition with anything they sell. It does however go after MS lower-end which makes up the majority of their OEM sales. There are a lot more than 2 HW vendors tied to this project. If Acer and Samsung are even remotely successful expect to see some additional competition on this.

As I, Jetz and others have stated there is no guarantee this will work. There are a lot of factors and we still need to see how well Google has been with making their code local, making it feel fast the way IOS feels fast on ARM, and with their partners HW and driver creation. Even then the price points and marketing have to work. This is a new system category just like the iPad was despite 3 decades of tablet on the market. If Google did their due diligence then I see this thing a noticeable bite out of Windows OS unless they also come up with an OS based on IE that runs on a fraction of the resources that Windows does.

The more I comment in other forums using Disqus and Intense Debate amongst others, the more I disklike the 2003-style forum here in terms of functionality. I would like to LIKE or +1 this comment and many others by old Sol but I can't. If I want to demonstrate support I have a write a stupid comment (like this). It's not that I want to give Sol a big head (after all other people don't exist anyway ;-) but I think it would be interesting by a count of +1s, where the quantitative rather than just qualitative center of this debate lies. If Sol is getting +50 and Dick or JRag re getting +5 it would interesting, similarly if it were the other way around. As it is, only the most passionate or otherwise unengaged people comment and it is hard to get a feel for the real mood. (minor) RANT OFF
post #235 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

The Acer and Samsung Chromebooks have 16 GB SSDs. After the disk format, OS install, you'll have what, 13 GB? We haven't lived with 16 GB drives in laptops in what 8 years?

Yeah, I think a lot of people's data will reside in the cloud with such limited hard drive space. So, what would one do with it in such a scenario?

Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, AD INFINITUM...

Not replacing your iMac and 14TBs of HD video of your kid's ballet recitals. I have TBs of stuff at home but my work PC only does email, web surfing, MS Office, chat and PDF. I have about 6GB of collected content over my career most of which I will never need again. My job is very PC heavy (not building anything but spreadsheets, presentations and white papers, etc.) and I am on it all day, everyday but I just don't need even a 16GB drive except that the OS, Apps and BS IT overhead crap would take all that and more under Windows. Chrome OS - problem solved. My problem would be mostly around PPT and some moderate Excel analysis features and if I could do them in GDocs. Storage would not be the issue. Having all that crap in the cloud might actually get me to find stuff more.
post #236 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

I have multiple external USB drives. The only one I use is the Time Machine one. It's just not a good user experience to carry a USB drive around. We'd be carrying a USB around all the time with machines with such small drives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This is just nonsense. You complained about the size of the boot drives in these very specific machines and the limitations of data capacity and speed with the web. I pointed out that you can have SD cards, USB sticks, HDDs, etc connected to read and write whatever data you want. IOW, this is not some dumb terminal thin client that can’t do jack unless it’s on the network. Why is that concept so fucking hard?


Sol,

Having an SD card slot and/or USB ports for USB Drives on a device is good for introducing content to the device and saving content from the device. It is an excellent way of mitigating the limited storage of these devices.

But, what you seem to be suggesting is some sort of sneaker net.

That could be somewhat useful in moving content among devices when offline.


But, if you think about it, SD cards or USB Drives are not a good alternative for when the network is unavailable.

Why? Because you would have had to anticipate the unavailability, in advance, and download and save necessary files to the external media.

Then there is the whole problem of versioning files that were modified while offline -- especially if multiple people are collaborating on the same files,

To have a "fool proof" system, each user, while online, would have to periodically save any file modifications to local storage.

Unless the ChromeOS has some very sophisticated file change management software (like TimeMachine) this would quickly become an operational nightmare -- where you spend more time anticipating and compensating for the unavailability of the network -- than accomplishing productive work.

... And you just know, that the one time you are in a hurry to meet a deadline and don't save a local copy of that critical file...

After a few network failures, where you scurry around, locate the card or drive then the needed file, read it in to the ChromeBook make some modifications (being sure to save the changes)...

Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...

Thank goodness we anticipated...

...Damn, the network's down again...

A few iterations of this and it's time to retire to the local Pub and reevaluate your offline operational strategy *


And, unless you have some sort of TimeMachine on the local network of ChromeBooks -- it really is impractical to do any work when the cloud or global network is unavailable.

If you do have a local TimeMachine, you are beginning to defeat the concept, increase costs, local support requirements and complexity.


I'm afraid it's pretty much "You're tethered -- or you're neutered."


I have to agree with Shrike on this!

* and don't think for a moment that some industrious users won't discover the connection between "network down" and "let's take a break".
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post #237 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, Business, Education, AD INFINITUM...

Not replacing your iMac and 14TBs of HD video of your kid's ballet recitals. I have TBs of stuff at home but my work PC only does email, web surfing, MS Office, chat and PDF. I have about 6GB of collected content over my career most of which I will never need again. My job is very PC heavy (not building anything but spreadsheets, presentations and white papers, etc.) and I am on it all day, everyday but I just don't need even a 16GB drive except that the OS, Apps and BS IT overhead crap would take all that and more under Windows. Chrome OS - problem solved. My problem would be mostly around PPT and some moderate Excel analysis features and if I could do them in GDocs. Storage would not be the issue. Having all that crap in the cloud might actually get me to find stuff more.

I work in an MS Office and Exchange corporate environment. My email archive is hundreds of GBs. We basically email multi-MB PDF, Powerpoint and Excel files multiple times everyday. Just Joe Regular Engineer here. I'd love it if it was all in a server somewhere, but I truly doubt that it would be cheaper solution. But never mind the anecdotes.

Where is it that ChromeOS is going to beat MS Windows? Why is it better? Why would it be cheaper? What's the advantage?
post #238 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

The machines and the OS have local storage - you can set all your office files to copy locally if needed. And how often do the corporate or education networks fail at all let alone for a prolonged or meaningful time. Almost never.

It has 16 GB of local storage. In my travels, and in my home, I can get network access through wireless cards or WiFi, but it's obviously not the same performance as the local network. In fact, most of the time, it simply doesn't work. Having everything local is just easier, better, faster.

My wife has not problem with the remote computing thing and working through the server, but I can imagine her doing her work through a small laptop form factor. It needs to be 14" to 15".

Having a virtual drive with a local copy is the right way to go. I'd love it. But this sort of thing will inevitably be more expensive to do. Amazon charges $1/GB of storage. It seems people are expecting a free lunch here.

Quote:
WebOS is HP - HP has tons of money and more corporate relationships than any other IT company. If HP is smart this is what they are trying to do so they can sell cheap hardware and profitable service contracts (which is what Google is trying to do). Whoever does it, it seems like the idea has legs.

Well certainly. Making more money should be their game. It's ok for me to think that HP does not have the same capability to create, change markets as Google does. Because, since when has HP done that?
post #239 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Sol,

Having an SD card slot and/or USB ports for USB Drives on a device is good for introducing content to the device and saving content from the device. It is an excellent way of mitigating the limited storage of these devices.

But, what you seem to be suggesting is some sort of sneaker net.

That could be somewhat useful in moving content among devices when offline.

*sigh* You know this is getting tiring, Dick. This is no different from using an SD card or USB drive on any machine. You are still not understanding that these machines have INTERNAL STORAGE for their apps and files just like on an iPad except you get USB and SD ports Don’t say that your 60GB of raw soccer coverage won’t fit and that you can’t process it on these machines. You’re not suppose to, but you’re not suppose to on an iPad either and good luck doing it on a $400 notebook. You have a powerful iMac for that.

No, I’m not talking about a sneakernet, I was replying to a comment that implied that if your file size exceeds what is in the system then you have to push it to the cloud or you can’t use it or save it.

Quote:
But, if you think about it, SD cards or USB Drives are not a good alternative for when the network is unavailable.

Why? Because you would have had to anticipate the unavailability, in advance, and download and save necessary files to the external media.

So why is external data okay for Macs but not for chrome books? Why has this all of a sudden become an issue for you? I have an 80GB SSD for my boot drive and a 500GB @7200RPM HDD for my Home folder. Those are internal. I also have a 3.5” 1TB HDD for my Time MAchine drive and a 2.5” 250GB HDD that holds a backup versions of Mac OS and additional video and audio I might want to watch/listen at some point.

The same dynamics are in effect for this type of machine with the difference being THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A TRADITIONAL PC FOR THE TRADITIONAL USER!!!

Quote:
Then there is the whole problem of versioning files that were modified while offline -- especially if multiple people are collaborating on the same files,

WTF?! How is this different than another offline modification of the same file? The way that is handled is by the backend where the file primary file is held. Dropbox does this nicely letting you go back and see changes and only uploading/downloading changes it has made.

Quote:
To have a "fool proof" system, each user, while online, would have to periodically save any file modifications to local storage.

THESE AREN’T DUMB TERMINAL THIN CLIENTS. THEY HAVE INTERNAL STORAGE!



Quote:
After a few network failures, where you scurry around, locate the card or drive then the needed file, read it in to the ChromeBook make some modifications (being sure to save the changes)...

Whoops! The network is back up again. How do we get back to where we were -- the network files all updated, and saved to the local media...

Thank goodness we anticipated...

...Damn, the network's down again...

A few iterations of this and it's time to retire to the local Pub and reevaluate your offline operational strategy *


And, unless you have some sort of TimeMachine on the local network of ChromeBooks -- it really is impractical to do any work when the cloud or global network is un available.

If you do have a local TimeMachine, you are beginning to defeat the concept, increase costs, local support requirements and complexity.


I'm afraid it's pretty much "You're tethered -- or you're neutered."

You’re making up scenarios that don’t make any sense. If you have a bunch of MBPs all connecting to one file on a server and the network goes up and down you can still get the same situation you are talking about.

It’s a fucking OS, Dick. It does exactly what every other OS has ever done with the exception of eliminating the fat and building around the number one app that people use. WebKit and web code are now sophisticated enough to make this viable for certain tasks for certain people, including posting on this forum.

Hell, you can even use Citrix to get a remote VM of Windows or Solaris or Mac OS X Server right on your Chromebook. Of course, that does require a network connection but it’s no different than any other Citrix connection.
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post #240 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I have no idea what that means. If you left your data in the cloud and have no way to access it thats your fault, but people that want their data local will have their data local just they do now on Windows, Mac OS, Android, iOS and WebOS.

So, what's the advantage? Why is it more beneficial? Is it cheaper?

Quote:
Again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Categorized? All of a sudden its not that an OS with WebKit for the UI is flawed, its that its only flawed if were talking about some sales in education or enterprise? Its either a viable concept for an OS or its not.

I don't know. The conversion spiraled out of sense when Jetz made the analogy that ChromeOS devices is like an iPad or iPhone and they are like cloud computers. Then it went to what it means to be a cloud computer.

I don't think you can really make that analogy. Not just yet.

Quote:
I dont recall any of these comments about WebOS not being able to work when you didnt have an internet connection. But how can you use the phone dialer on EDGE to make a call if you cant be on the carriers voice and data network at the same time?, How can you use the built-in calculator if you arent getting any service on your phone?, How can I play my games, listen to music and watch videos on my Palm Pre when Im in Airplane Mode? I dont recall any such questions about how a WebKit based UI can have offline access to data. Palm made a lot of mistakes, but WebOS was not one of them.

I have no idea why you or others have veered into webOS. Currently, webOS isn't trying to do what ChromeOS is attempting to do.
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