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Google sets sights on enterprise, education with subscription 'Chromebooks' - Page 3

post #81 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The average person doesn’t do this, but there is no reason it can’t be done. Can’t you upload and edit with YouTube already?


Yes and yes. They already announced Angry Birds. They have an app store and you can buy apps for it.


Any app that is localized, which would include native apps for playing audio, video and Google Docs.

This shouldn’t be an issue for you and tells me you’re not looking at this clearly. There are plenty of App Store apps that simply don’t work when your iDevice doesn’t have an internet connection. Flicker, Words with Friends, and Maps are the first three that come to mind.


1) Just like anything else it needs to have apps, but it already has the ones for education and business: docs and web browser. Just like Android Marketplace and Apple’s App Store before it it will take time to build. If it doesn’t it could sink the product but I wouldn’t count out web code based apps just yet when there has been so many impressive feats on the internet proper and on WebOS.

2) Why does it have to be “the bulk”? My iPhone apps don’t satisfy “the bulk” of my computer app needs yet they are indispensable nonetheless. I could live without Words with Friends, but I don’t want to. BTW, Wowrds with Friends could be easily added to the Chrome OS app store.

3) The cost has already been shown to be considerably less than a desktop or laptop for the intended utility and market.

No offence but I think you are 100% wrong on this. I work in Education and these things just don't fit the use cases at all.

It reminds me of Microsoft in that they seem to have simply no idea of the market they are trying to sell to. It's almost as if someone on the Chrome project sat down and said "hmmm ... where can we sell these things now we've made them? I bet schools would like them!" Educational technology needs to be designed for the situation from the ground up. These are just cheap laptops that cut out the Microsoft tax, but it isn't enough. I don't see it.

These things are too expensive, too underpowered and just don't have the necessary apps. Nor is there any reasonable expectation they can get them in the near future. Education needs are completely different from just editing a document and cruising the web. Most students need to edit video at a minimum, and there are dozens of specialty apps that simply won't be available.

Also, where is the support? Is Google "in the schools?" No. Do they have reps visiting schools finding out what apps are needed and what they can do to fix things or help out? No.

Apple does.

Edit:

In addition ... schools that do need word processing need Word. Anyone with any tech talent knows MS Word is POS but it's the standard format that everyone uses and it can't be gotten around. Apple is in the schools every day, supporting their needs and *still* they can't get them to switch Word for Pages even though Pages is a better product. A school can'st simply just switch to Google Docs overnight (or even over a matter of years). Ain't gonna happen.

Also, something most people aren't aware of ... most governments and educational institutions outside of the USA can't use Google Docs at all. Period. The reason being that it's illegal to have personal information stored on computers outside of the country. In Canada, it's a violation of the privacy act for example for a school to use Google docs. Some do it anyway but only a small number.
post #82 of 372
Here's an interesting question:

Will there be a Chrome-based tablet?
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post #83 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

See my earlier post!


Simply stated, the web provides about 10% of what we (5 people) use computers for -- it'd be a lot less if I didn't follow these forums.

When I'm at my Mac I typically use several apps. Currently I am using:

-- Safari
-- Mail
-- Interactive Brokers Stocktrader (done for the day, but monitor after-hour trades and news)
-- GarageBand
-- Apple FCP Motion 4
-- QuickTime 7
-- iPhoto
-- iTunes

Sure, some of this I can do through a Web OS -- but where, how do I do the things that can't?


I can visualize classes of uses (not users) where limited Web-based apps would be sufficient.

However, I do not believe that Web-based apps are sufficient to satisfy most uses in business, home and personal.

Safari: surely you know how that can be used on Chrome OS.
Mail: surely you know how that can be access on Chrome OS.
Interactive Stock app: why dont you think this cant be done in a web browser?
GarageBand: This is not a common use for a work/education/low income computer.
FCP: same as above.
QuickTime: it plays videos, both online and offline, which you can access via the USB port.
iPhoto: You have offline and online access to your photos.
iTunes: Google and Amazon have just released a couple options and Apple will shortly be following suit.

Again, why do you think overpowered and overpriced machines need to fill corporations just to access the web browser?


Quote:
For example: is there a ChromeOS app to teach math; Spanish; how to tell time...

Did you ask these questions about apps the very day the App Store was announced with the presumption it was a failed concept?

Quote:
Edit: I know I'm gonna' get zapped for this...

But how is ChromeOS/ChromeBook different than WebTV with a built-in display?

*sigh* Why dont yoou download and install Chrome OS so you can see how it differs from WebTV. You might as well ask how it differs from a rock. (Not the social browser, an actual rock!)
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post #84 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Every major corporation Ive worked for leased most of their PCs. Its not necessarily cheaper, but they get to outsource the repair and replacement and get to alter their unit numbers without incurring high up front cost which makes a big difference to managers trying to balance a budget for the quarter or the year.

So for $20 a month, you can lease a crappy sub-netbook system which doesn't run any of your existing software and does nothing but access the net.

For roughly the same $20 a month, you can lease a low-end desktop system that does everything you expect a computer to do. No need to retrain your employees and no need to obsolete your existing stuff.

Explain again why it makes sense?
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post #85 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

No offence but I think you are 100% wrong on this. I work in Education and these things just don't fit the use cases at all.

It reminds me of Microsoft in that they seem to have simply no idea of the market they are trying to sell to. It's almost as if someone on the Chrome project sat down and said "hmmm ... where can we sell these things now we've made them? I bet schools would like them!" Educational technology needs to be designed for the situation from the ground up. These are just cheap laptops that cut out the Microsoft tax, but it isn't enough. I don't see it.

These things are too expensive, too underpowered and just don't have the necessary apps. Nor is there any reasonable expectation they can get them in the near future. Education needs are completely different from just editing a document and cruising the web. Most students need to edit video at a minimum, and there are dozens of specialty apps that simply won't be available.

Also, where is the support? Is Google "in the schools?" No. Do they have reps visiting schools finding out what apps are needed and what they can do to fix things or help out? No.

Apple does.

Edit:

In addition ... schools that do need word processing need Word. Anyone with any tech talent knows MS Word is POS but it's the standard format that everyone uses and it can't be gotten around. Apple is in the schools every day, supporting their needs and *still* they can't get them to switch Word for Pages even though Pages is a better product. A school can'st simply just switch to Google Docs overnight (or even over a matter of years). Ain't gonna happen.

Also, something most people aren't aware of ... most governments and educational institutions outside of the USA can't use Google Docs at all. Period. The reason being that it's illegal to have personal information stored on computers outside of the country. In Canada, it's a violation of the privacy act for example for a school to use Google docs. Some do it anyway but only a small number.

Schools that need MS Word will have machine that can run MS Word. That doesnt mean that all machines everywhere need to have MS Word.

You say you work in education. So tell me how a college with an admin setup of 50 machines (personal example) for registering for class with everything locked out except for IE will need to have MS Word running on those machines? Tell me why these need to be running C2D and have 4GB RAM just to access IE?
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post #86 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

+1

A lot of companies already do this.

Some people here have no understanding of capital budgets, return on capital, etc.

Obviously including you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

This is a CIO's dream. $28/mo and everything is taken care off. Vs. having to map out a plan with a high up front capital cost for IT upgrades and having to incur the ongoing costs for software and hardware support.

They're already leasing hardware. For the same $28 / mo, they're getting a decent desktop system that runs all their existing software and that doesn't require them to retrain their employees or lose productivity while the employee tries to figure out how to make the thing work. Not to mention no need to take a risk on an unproven platform from an unproven hardware vendor.

What possible advantage is there? The overwhelming majority of enterprise computers are desktops, so the portability is actually a DISadvantage.

And the small number of people who do need portable computers will probably not find these sub-netbook systems to be suitable.
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post #87 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

See my earlier post!


Simply stated, the web provides about 10% of what we (5 people) use computers for -- it'd be a lot less if I didn't follow these forums.

When I'm at my Mac I typically use several apps. Currently I am using :

-- Safari
-- Mail
-- Interactive Brokers Stocktrader (done for the day, but monitor after-hour trades and news)
-- GarageBand
-- Apple FCP Motion 4
-- QuickTime 7
-- iPhoto
-- iTunes

See bold. That's where your argument starts to fall apart. Your usage is not the same as everybody elses. The average persion is certainly not using Final Cut Pro or even iPhoto.

The average person surfs on the browser, watches stuff on youtube, maybe plays a flash based game on the net, checks facebook, checks webmail, etc. Chrome is perfect for all this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Sure, some of this I can do through a Web OS -- but where, how do I do the things that can't?

On your other machine. While you can do it, how many people use their iPad as their primary device to edit video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I can visualize classes of uses (not users) where limited Web-based apps would be sufficient.

However, I do not believe that Web-based apps are sufficient to satisfy most uses in business, home and personal.

You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

For example: is there a ChromeOS app to teach math; Spanish; how to tell time...

And if there isn't, why can't these be developed? This is seriously flawed logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

But how is ChromeOS/ChromeBook different than WebTV with a built-in display?

Mostly it isn't. And there isn't anything wrong with that. It's a tad more powerful (being based on a full and proper browser). And it runs a browser people are already familiar with. There's value in that.
post #88 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You say you work in education. So tell me how a college with an admin setup of 50 machines (personal example) for registering for class with everything locked out except for IE will need to have MS Word running on those machines? Tell me why these need to be running C2D and have 4GB RAM just to access IE?

Sure - as soon as you tell me why they should buy a crappy sub-notebook which is far more limited which will cost them as much as buying a C2D system with 4 GB of RAM.
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post #89 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

But, apparently, it has been in use by business for a while.

I do understand the concept of a laptop. I have one. I have looked at netbooks -- never wanted one.

So, along comes a special, low-cost? laptop that just runs a web browser and some local copies of web apps.


Pardon me, but it is a leap in logic (at least for me) to assume that a browser and some web apps can do what I or any of the other 4 members of the household do on their computers.

Everyone can do surfing, email, WP, SS, etc. -- those are "meets min" for any computing device.

Can you create and edit a simple movie on a ChromeBook? We do this daily.

You obviously lack the imagination to see how most people would find a good browser useful for their computer needs. No use debating when you think the average family edits video every night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

What about games or other specialty apps?

There's an app store. Angry birds is already out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

They say you can run apps while off line. What apps?

Everything that runs offline in your browser now (like Google docs) will run offline in Chrome OS....because it's a browser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

To me, the whole issue is going to be about:

1) the apps available for the device

2) whether these apps can satisfy the bulk of a person's computer needs

3) the cost

At $1,008 ($28 per month for 36 months) I can buy a pretty nice iPad, BT KB, and lots of apps.

1) It'll build up....like the app store for any platform. Just give it time.

2) It'll be part of a solution. Nobody intends for any user to solely use Chromebooks for everything. You aren't going to be doing CAD on a Chromebook.

3) Cheaper than a iPad: http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/s...me-os-laptops/

4) Leasing is one option. That was offered directly by Google as a service to businesses and educational institutions. You can buy directly from a retailer if you wish. And it won't cost you $1000.
post #90 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The average person doesnt do this, but there is no reason it cant be done. Cant you upload and edit with YouTube already?


Yes and yes. They already announced Angry Birds. They have an app store and you can buy apps for it.


Any app that is localized, which would include native apps for playing audio, video and Google Docs.

This shouldnt be an issue for you and tells me youre not looking at this clearly. There are plenty of App Store apps that simply dont work when your iDevice doesnt have an internet connection. Flicker, Words with Friends, and Maps are the first three that come to mind.


1) Just like anything else it needs to have apps, but it already has the ones for education and business: docs and web browser. Just like Android Marketplace and Apples App Store before it it will take time to build. If it doesnt it could sink the product but I wouldnt count out web code based apps just yet when there has been so many impressive feats on the internet proper and on WebOS.

2) Why does it have to be the bulk? My iPhone apps dont satisfy the bulk of my computer app needs yet they are indispensable nonetheless. I could live without Words with Friends, but I dont want to. BTW, Wowrds with Friends could be easily added to the Chrome OS app store.

3) The cost has already been shown to be considerably less than a desktop or laptop for the intended utility and market.

That is pretty dumb math. I dont see you using the same iPad for 3 straight years, but youre also talking about a $1000+ upfront costs which simply dont exist since you are paying a per month fee. Are you seriously trying to argue that an iPad is a replacement for an iPad and that an iPad sitting in a keyboard dock could at a 100 tables in a library or 50 terminals at a schools admin building or at 1000 desks at a company that accesses all data via the browser on their LAN?


Right now, I can't answer all your questions -- I don't have enough knowledge.

I will reserve final opinion until I do some research.

In the mean time, I will play devil's advocate.


I do have some pretty good intuition and 55 years worth of experience with computers and their predecessors.


As I understand the ChromeBook/Chrome OS offering it has to get critical mass to be broadly accepted.

I have yet to see anything to convince me that it will attain that critical mass.

I have seen a series of half-assed, half-hearted Google offerings -- that are announced with great noise -- then left to wither and die.

Who knows -- Chrome may be a whole-assed offering.


But a lot of Chrome's success depends on the enterprise where Microsoft is active and entrenched.

Much as I'd like to see MS get some come-uppance, I don't believe Google has the chops to compete in this arena (neither does Apple).
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post #91 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here's an interesting question:

Will there be a Chrome-based tablet?

No.

Chrome is not a touch friendly OS.
post #92 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Sure - as soon as you tell me why they should buy a crappy sub-notebook which is far more limited which will cost them as much as buying a C2D system with 4 GB of RAM.

You can get a C2D with 4GB of RAM for $429? Where???
post #93 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Schools that need MS Word will have machine that can run MS Word. That doesnt mean that all machines everywhere need to have MS Word.

You say you work in education. So tell me how a college with an admin setup of 50 machines (personal example) for registering for class with everything locked out except for IE will need to have MS Word running on those machines? Tell me why these need to be running C2D and have 4GB RAM just to access IE?

I've never seen such a setup.

I was talking "class sets" of machines bought for schools (elementary and high school), for educational use. These chromebooks are just no good for that at all.

I work at a University so I'm not sure what a US college is like. Colleges are a whole different thing up here. In Canada, colleges are budget places where you go to prepare for University usually because you can't afford the University or your grades are poor or you are starting late in life etc. Regular students go from high-school direct to University unless their grades aren't good enough. The Universities generally have multiple, large computer labs fitted out with multi-purpose computers (Mac or PC). They are secured, and the applications are controlled, but they all have Word. I don't think I've even seen a computer without MS Office on it for years.

I've never heard of one that "locked a lab down" to be only "browsers only" for any purpose. You register from one of the labs, or more likely from home. If you don't have access to the web from home it's just too bad. I'm not sure what the point would be for a college or university to buy all that hardware/software and then only allow people to browse? and only within the college admissions system??? If that really happens then a chromebook would be a good replacement for that situation I guess, but WTF are they doing in the first place with that?

Also, by the time you get to University, if you don't have your own computer you would be in a very, very, tiny minority. You have to be rich to go to University or upper-middle class at least. Why would you not have your own laptop even if it wasn't a new one?
post #94 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

Yep I agree with this. I think it's a good gamble by Google. I wonder how much people are willing ot have google tracking everything they do and say.

What Google is gambling on is people's ignorance/apathy about Google's snooping into everyone's lives in pursuit of ad revenue. At least half of my friends have gmail accounts, and when I get all "tin-foil hat" about Google's intrusive behavior, their general response is "Meh, whatever".
Schools and universities might even like that--if students know that their correspondence is being constantly monitored, then they might be more likely to behave themselves. Google is the new hall-monitor. They track student online behavior so school administrators don't have to! \
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post #95 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by drobforever View Post

You need to remember this includes service/upgrade etc for the schools, which is a huge cost to schools, it's not consumers renting this for $20/month.

36 months = $720 vs $499. for iPad which has browser and multiple education apps.

Need a a keyboard - Bluetooth $69. Need an external monitor $100 plus a connector. Damn good system, still less than $720.

What infrastructure does Google have to services the scools. Google just want the added advert impressions on the school kids.

However, could be a threat to the netbooks out there.

I reckon Apple can offer iPads with the same deal.
post #96 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Yep, cloud computing sucks.

Good thing there's nothing like that for OS X.

"Cloud Computing" and utilizing "the cloud" on a stand alone computer are two very different things. Just pointing that out.
post #97 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic View Post

What Google is gambling on is people's ignorance/apathy about Google's snooping into everyone's lives in pursuit of ad revenue. At least half of my friends have gmail accounts, and when I get all "tin-foil hat" about Google's intrusive behavior, their general response is "Meh, whatever".
Schools and universities might even like that--if students know that their correspondence is being constantly monitored, then they might be more likely to behave themselves. Google is the new hall-monitor. They track student online behavior so school administrators don't have to! \

Yep the truth is most people don't mind Google tracking everything they are doing as long as they can do it. That's a fair point.
post #98 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post

what happens when soemone loses their machine?

what happens when they stop paying? does google send out a team to collect? it's a certainty that those $20 per month charges will have an enormous default rate.

where is the support coming from? this is a new kettle of fish for google to try and fry.

Hmm. All good points. As I've posted before, I can see the ChromeBooks as a great concept... but...

- Lease them only to institutions and businesses (perhaps of a certain size/# of Cbooks?) to keep the default rate down (or at least you can recover the Cbooks).

- Support could come from "partners" like Best Buy or Fry's, etc... otherwise the institution has to mail in the Cbook... yuck.

- Re: losing the machine. Well, it could be disabled and the institution (again) has their CC auto debited some depreciating amount.
post #99 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

It's really sad when people let their inner fanboy blind them from technological advances.

Solipsism got it right. He sees the value in this.

As do I. For the average high schooler or non-science/engineering student, what is the need for a laptop that costs on average $500-%700...or if you go Apple, closer to $1000? Do they really need that kind of processing or graphics power to surf the web, write essays and check Facebook? And then there's the cost of all the Office software you have to buy. You're never spending just $500.

Tablets are not a decent solution. Nobody is going to sit down and work on an essay for hours on an iPad. The iPad is also severely limited by onboard storage.

Now bring in a thin client connected to the cloud. It's perfect for any student that doesn't have to do CAD or graphics work. No need for MS Office. Just work off Google Docs. And given that many universities are now switching their e-mail systems over to Google (Google Apps), and given that most campuses have great wifi, the next logical step is to deploy these kinds of thin clients.

And even better if Google is offering a total solution for hardware and software and if they will manage it all for $20 per month. It's an attractive proposition for universities. Costs are low. Capital budgets are preserved. And Google manages the whole thing for them.

As for competition with Apple. It's not the same thing. Apple sells computers to schools and students. They haven't cared much for actually taking the whole responsibility for IT, out of the hands of university CIOs.

It might take off. It might not. Too early to tell. But I don't think the idea should be dismissed off-hand just because it came from Google.

Good points. When I was in university, there were terminals all over campus, and so you were never more than 10 steps away from access to your e-mail/schedule/grades/etc. (pre-smartphone days). The "thin-client model". This process would be even more streamlined if everyone could carry their thin-clients with them. Really, if you're just writing papers, you wouldn't need more than 256 MB RAM (plenty to run a browser), and maybe a couple GB of flash storage. But you would need a full-sized keyboard. Apple's MBA is a beautiful little machine for your typical English major, but is way overpowered and overpriced for an English major's needs.
(I can't believe I'm actually arguing against Apple!)
As for the subscription, a university could easily fold that cost into the tuition.
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post #100 of 372
Peabody, the reason Apple can't get schools to adopt iWork is because as a default iwork saves all files in a format that you can ONLY read with another apple computer that also has iwork. Sure, they are working on a web version, but it still requires that YOU have a apple computer with iwork (or at leas the login of one) to access the information.

Gdocs can read almost any format (save apples) when it comes to popular document formats, and it lets you download them in ANY format you want. Yes, you can do this with iWork, but it's not the default option. MS office is the default choice for schools because it is nearly universal (even iwork can read MS office docs) and it works a heck of a lot better then OpenOffice (loads faster, etc). What they need is a word processor whose format is universal. Gdocs provides that.

And you don't have to retrain, not really.
1- It's a browser. If people can't understand a browser you need to train them PERIOD.
2- A lot of schools and businesses are running on WindowsXP and 5+ year old hardware. This means that they're not "throwing these computers away" it means they're finally updating.

And most universities have locked down computer labs. In fact, most of them do. If you haven't heard of it it's because your system is obviously very different. And you don't have to be "rich" to go to university. Far from it.

But you bring up a good point. Why should someone (where money is an issue) drop $1000 on a macbook, or a few hundred on a crappy suboptimized laptop when they can buy a product that does EVERYTHING the typical student needs, offers a full keyboard and larger screen, better battery life, etc... all for the same price as cheap-ass laptops that double as heating pads?
post #101 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

It's really sad when people let their inner fanboy blind them from technological advances.

Solipsism got it right. He sees the value in this.

As do I. For the average high schooler or non-science/engineering student, what is the need for a laptop that costs on average $500-%700...or if you go Apple, closer to $1000? Do they really need that kind of processing or graphics power to surf the web, write essays and check Facebook? And then there's the cost of all the Office software you have to buy. You're never spending just $500.

Tablets are not a decent solution. Nobody is going to sit down and work on an essay for hours on an iPad. The iPad is also severely limited by onboard storage.

The iPad, assuming on the net, has as much storage as a chromebook, no?

The iPad with a good keyboard dock is just as viable for writing essays. Even more so for a tablet like the Eee Pad Transformer. All three have netbook style keyboards as near as I can tell.

I'd rather have an Android or iOS tablet.

Quote:
Now bring in a thin client connected to the cloud. It's perfect for any student that doesn't have to do CAD or graphics work. No need for MS Office.

Except that MS Office is in the cloud as well and costs $6 per month for business users. Not $28. And you can deploy to your own servers which schools systems already maintains.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/offic...-software.aspx

Quote:
Just work off Google Docs. And given that many universities are now switching their e-mail systems over to Google (Google Apps), and given that most campuses have great wifi, the next logical step is to deploy these kinds of thin clients.

There's no need to deploy thin clients when most students bring a real laptop to school with them. $28/month vs $0/month. Or less than $6 if you want to deploy MS Office 360.

Quote:
It might take off. It might not. Too early to tell. But I don't think the idea should be dismissed off-hand just because it came from Google.

Nobody is dismissing it just because it came from Google as much as the only reason it has any credibility is because it comes from Google.

Given how easily is seems HB Gary got compromised on Google I'd sure as hell not use GMail and Google Apps for business. The weakest link, even at a security company, is the executive staff. At least two-factor is available on Google apps but it's a real pain in the ass.
post #102 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by pridon View Post

36 months = $720 vs $499. for iPad which has browser and multiple education apps.

Need a a keyboard - Bluetooth $69. Need an external monitor $100 plus a connector. Damn good system, still less than $720.

What infrastructure does Google have to services the scools. Google just want the added advert impressions on the school kids.

However, could be a threat to the netbooks out there.

I reckon Apple can offer iPads with the same deal.

Oh, so that ipad price has tech support and software support built into the price? You get it for a year. Add apple care.

Oh and add another $500 because in 36months (or possibly sooner) they GIVE you a new laptop with bumped up specs as the OS provides so you NEVER have to purchase new hardware.

And a ton of schools use GApps for their email/back end clients already.

I get that this is from Google, so a lot of people are quick to hate on it for soley that reason, but this is a new product geared to a wholly underrepresented market.

The local highschool just spent MILLIONS getting every high school student a laptop. We're one of the last districts in the area to do this and we're by no means a "weathy" district compared to others. Something like this would've been a MUCH better solution for them, on every level. (no upfront cost, built in software/hardware support, minimal virus issues)

Do you HONESTLY thing a school district thinking clearly would buy their students IPADS? To kids that age, the ipad is almost exclusively a TOY (with few exceptions) and one that would be largely used for non-school related matters. No, they got bottom of the barrel ACER laptops.

That's the comparison you guys need to think about. This is NOT something to replace the ipad/android/OSX/etc. This is directly geared towards to low end laptop market because it's a significantly better product (how it operates) than laptops with a similar price.
post #103 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

See bold. That's where your argument starts to fall apart. Your usage is not the same as everybody elses. The average persion is certainly not using Final Cut Pro or even iPhoto.

The average person surfs on the browser, watches stuff on youtube, maybe plays a flash based game on the net, checks facebook, checks webmail, etc. Chrome is perfect for all this.




On your other machine. While you can do it, how many people use their iPad as their primary device to edit video?



You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job.



And if there isn't, why can't these be developed? This is seriously flawed logic.



Mostly it isn't. And there isn't anything wrong with that. It's a tad more powerful (being based on a full and proper browser). And it runs a browser people are already familiar with. There's value in that.


Ya' know, sonny...

You're beginning to piss me off!

I find your responses elitist and demeaning.

You seem to think you know what "most people" use computers for -- if you were correct the majority of people would be using netbooks.


BTW, the way -- regarding "You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job."

My first real experience with online data entry was to design and program a system for data entry to an IBM/360.

The year was 1967. I worked for IBM.

We used 24 IBM 1050 Selectric® typewriter terminals (Video terminals weren't available).

The data entry ran 24/7 for six months.

The data entry was done by high school and college students.


The application was to convert 2+ million 3x5 index cards to online data for the Clark County, NV Sheriff's Department. Las Vegas

Some notable items:
  • there was no format to the information -- it evolved over decades
  • none of the information was field-encoded (name, address, etc,)
  • some cards were typed, many were handwritten with things stapled to them and written on the back
  • many of the cards were ripped, taped, folded -- even rolled and dipped in coffee
  • the IBM terminals would disintegrate after a week of continuous use -- not built for that

We gave the data entry people 2 days training.

They would encode each item of information as follows:

XX=yyyyyyyyy return

where XX=was 2-3 digit code, and yyyyyyy was the data

codes were things like: fn, ln fp1 (fingerprint 1)...


After each shift we would print the records and computer check codes and content for anomalies. If we ran into an unexpected data field we would generate a new code, and adjust the editing program

Each day, the shift officer in charge would review the results with each DE operator.

Bonuses/raises were awarded for performance.

After about three weeks, we pretty much had encountered all the varying fields of information -- and so we began the database design (hand programmed -- no SQL in those days).


The effort was a resounding success -- I got a bonus and a promotion -- as did several members of the Sheriff's department and the Computer Center staff.



In the intervening years I've done lots of data entry apps including writing web shopping carts in JavaScript, Perl and ColdFusion.


So, sonny -- why don't you buzz off (to put it nicely) and stop telling me what I do and don't know, have seen or understand!
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post #104 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Obviously including you.

Ahhh, you're back....your acrimonious ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They're already leasing hardware.For the same $28 / mo, they're getting a decent desktop system that runs all their existing software and that doesn't require them to retrain their employees or lose productivity while the employee tries to figure out how to make the thing work.

If your employees have a tough time figuring out how to work a web browser and your IT section needs to be retrained to support an OS that is essentially a web browser with the simplest hardware possible, you have much bigger problems than a simple tech changeover!

As for the cost, companies will decide on merit, of course. But I strongly suspect that if you use Google Apps already, there will be a strong case to go for Chrome. No more worrying about viruses. No more worrying about managing software baselines, etc. No more managing upgrades. Google does all that for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Not to mention no need to take a risk on an unproven platform from an unproven hardware vendor.

Right....

I'm sure many of these companies have no experience dealing with Google from their years using Google Apps. And Samsung or Acer? Unproven hardware suppliers. Both of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What possible advantage is there? The overwhelming majority of enterprise computers are desktops, so the portability is actually a DISadvantage.

...and that's why they have desktop boxes on the way. BYOMKB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

And the small number of people who do need portable computers will probably not find these sub-netbook systems to be suitable.

So quick to pass judgement. People said that about the iPad too.
post #105 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ya' know, sonny...

You're beginning to piss me off!

I find your responses elitist and demeaning.

You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?

Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.

And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.
post #106 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The iPad, assuming on the net, has as much storage as a chromebook, no?

Assuming Apple comes out with "iCloud" then sure. Otherwise, not really.
Quote:
The iPad with a good keyboard dock is just as viable for writing essays. Even more so for a tablet like the Eee Pad Transformer. All three have netbook style keyboards as near as I can tell.

I'd rather have an Android or iOS tablet.

The transformer is a better option in this case then since it's the traditional laptop form factor so it's significantly more mobile than a tablet/dock pairing.

The big elephant in the room though is Chrome's "Login anywhere" ability though. A company could literally keep 20 of these in their office, you come in the morning, grab one (any one) and log in, and all your information is right at your fingertips for you. This is potentially HUGE for schools.

My school has "Laptop labs" where the prof would bring in a big filing cabinet full of laptops for students to work on. We had to buy our own flash drives, and there were more than a few projects I lost because I forgot to save it before I shut the computer down. Now, a student could get ANY of those laptops, log in, and all their information would be at their fingertips, and automatically synced with their account every few seconds so information wouldn't be lost.

Since a lot of schools use Gapps for email already, it wouldn't be that hard to expand their portals to make a document sharing site. Heck, think of it as Blackboard 2.0. Google could even develop a custom build of Chrome for Windows/Mac that would act as a "Virtual PC" for the students on their personal computer (or they could get all the information the "old" way through gmail)

A local coffee shop could have the Chrome thinclients available. Then if a normal customer was there, it would give them the full browser (via a guest login) but students could access ALL their work from these computers.

I'd personally use a Tablet too, but I am not a student. If I was, what I would want more than anything was something that prevented me from accidentally losing 3 hours of work on a final project because I forgot my Zip Drive in the dorm room.


Quote:
Except that MS Office is in the cloud as well and costs $6 per month for business users. Not $28. And you can deploy to your own servers which schools systems already maintains.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/offic...-software.aspx

Which are largely running windows XP and woefully outdated. So add Tech support, obsolete hardware replacement, etc to that $6 a month.

Quote:
There's no need to deploy thin clients when most students bring a real laptop to school with them. $28/month vs $0/month. Or less than $6 if you want to deploy MS Office 360.

Besides that schools can't depend on students having their own computers. And even if they could, they still need to offer computers in public places (labs, library, etc) for the few that don't. These are often outdated beige boxes that are slow as molasses and frequently break down, requiring expensive tech support.

again, a lot of schools are still running on XP era hardware and software. They need to upgrade anyway. And $28 a month with free hardware upgrades is a VERY attractive offer.


Quote:
Nobody is dismissing it just because it came from Google as much as the only reason it has any credibility is because it comes from Google.

Given how easily is seems HB Gary got compromised on Google I'd sure as hell not use GMail and Google Apps for business. The weakest link, even at a security company, is the executive staff. At least two-factor is available on Google apps but it's a real pain in the ass.

It's not a pain in the ass, well, no more than 2 step authentication is anyway. On top of that, companies like VMware and the like could easily create virtual machines that are compatible with the books, adding a second layer of security. They already do with Android.
post #107 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?

Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.

And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.

From your very first response to Dick you have been kind of a jerk. He was being patient with you in not calling you out sooner.
post #108 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

From your very first response to Dick you have been kind of a jerk. He was being patient with you in not calling you out sooner.

From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.

I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.

His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."
post #109 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

OK!

Several posters here are supportive of the Chrome OS and the ChromeBook.

I don't see it... yet!


Do you guys promoting the concept have some actual "hands-on" experience?

If so, where can I get some?


Help me see the light!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

It's just launched. Obviously we don't have first hand experience. But some of us can use logic to see how things would work. And there have been more than enough demos out there to form an informed opinion. And really....it's a freaking web browser. It'll run like Chrome on your desktop.

Tell me, did you think the iPad was going to be a hit before you got your hands on one?
If you did, why would you suggest that this can't be successful without trying it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

You find my responses elitist and demeaning and yet you expect me to take what you say carte blanche from some set of experiences coming from the Jurassic era?

Sorry. No way. You get to debate with logic and facts just like the rest of us. I'll buy your arguments if you back them up. Just like I expect you to respect (or not accept) mine on the strength of the logic I put forward.

And by the way, call me sonny is quite elitist and demeaning.


In several posts I said that I could not make a logical or factual evaluation of the Chrome OS/ChromeBook because i had insufficient knowledge and no experience with either.

Because several of you were singing the virtues on this approach, I made the post (first above) requesting where I could educate myself -- so I could make a logical and factual evaluation.

Your response (second above) admits you have no experience, and, I guess no facts.

So I guess you are debating by logic alone, with no facts or experience -- how logical is that?
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #110 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

No offence but I think you are 100% wrong on this. I work in Education and these things just don't fit the use cases at all.

I see no reason why most Liberal Arts students would need anything more than this. And for the rare occasions that they do, they can use a computer lad that's better equipped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

These things are too expensive, too underpowered and just don't have the necessary apps.

1) $429 is too expensive, but a $500 iPad (like some have argued for) is okay???
2) Underpowered? About the same horsepower as an iPad.
3) Don't have the necessary apps? Judgement call. For most people a browser and Google's web apps would suffice for all their work. But again, nobody says this will be the only machine they use for everything.

[QUOTE=Prof. Peabody;1862494]
Nor is there any reasonable expectation they can get them in the near future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Education needs are completely different from just editing a document and cruising the web.

And you use different machines for difference functions. I didn't go to the CAD lad to surf the web in university.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Most students need to edit video at a minimum,

No they dont. Four years of aerospace engineering here. I never saw a need to edit a video for a class. Maybe for a personal project. But for a class, no way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

....and there are dozens of specialty apps that simply won't be available.

And for that there will always be PC labs where you can go use those apps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Also, where is the support? Is Google "in the schools?" No. Do they have reps visiting schools finding out what apps are needed and what they can do to fix things or help out? No.

Apple does.

Geez man. They just announced the concept. Let the details come out. You're writing it off before they even lay out how it will work. And you're forgetting Google Apps. How does Google support large institutions that deploy Google Apps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


In addition ... schools that do need word processing need Word. Anyone with any tech talent knows MS Word is POS but it's the standard format that everyone uses and it can't be gotten around. Apple is in the schools every day, supporting their needs and *still* they can't get them to switch Word for Pages even though Pages is a better product. A school can'st simply just switch to Google Docs overnight (or even over a matter of years). Ain't gonna happen.

You should pay closer attention to the kids. It's become more and more common to use Google Docs because it allows for collaborative work in real time. Word has been a standard because it allowed for compatibility across machines. Google Docs and a browser does the same thing.

And nobody "needs" Word. I have yet to see a Prof specify which word processor I would have to use. They don't care what you use as long as a printed essay lands in the dropbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Also, something most people aren't aware of ... most governments and educational institutions outside of the USA can't use Google Docs at all. Period. The reason being that it's illegal to have personal information stored on computers outside of the country. In Canada, it's a violation of the privacy act for example for a school to use Google docs. Some do it anyway but only a small number.

That ruling applies to PERSONAL INFORMATION as in your student number, name, class schedule, etc....basically the school's admin systems. There is nothing preventing the institutions from using Google Apps to provide email services.

[QUOTE=Prof. Peabody;1862522]I've never seen such a setup.

I was talking "class sets" of machines bought for schools (elementary and high school), for educational use. These chromebooks are just no good for that at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I work at a University so I'm not sure what a US college is like. Colleges are a whole different thing up here. In Canada, colleges are budget places where you go to prepare for University usually because you can't afford the University or your grades are poor or you are starting late in life etc. Regular students go from high-school direct to University unless their grades aren't good enough.

WHAT UTTER ELITIST GARBAGE. For the Americans on here, colleges in Canada are like Junior colleges in the US. They are actually a cut above. They focus on skilled education (training technologists for example) and some offer applied degree programs. And no, they are not meant for people who just got bad grades in high school....unless you prefer the aircraft mechanic who touched your last airplane to be an academic underachiever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

The Universities generally have multiple, large computer labs fitted out with multi-purpose computers (Mac or PC). They are secured, and the applications are controlled, but they all have Word. I don't think I've even seen a computer without MS Office on it for years.

I have. My CAD stations in university were UNIX workstations without MS suites on there. You went in that lab just to do CAD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I've never heard of one that "locked a lab down" to be only "browsers only" for any purpose.

Quite common in the computers at any university or public library.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I'm not sure what the point would be for a college or university to buy all that hardware/software and then only allow people to browse? and only within the college admissions system???

So that they don't hog the machine. You register. And get off. Reference terminals at libraries work like this too. You look up the book you're searching for and get off the machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Also, by the time you get to University, if you don't have your own computer you would be in a very, very, tiny minority.

And if you have a Chromebook, you'll still have a computer. This would be on par with using an iPad. Just with a more traditional laptop feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

You have to be rich to go to University or upper-middle class at least. Why would you not have your own laptop even if it wasn't a new one?

Ahhh yes. All the Liberals Arts students who hung out at Starbucks with their Macbooks. God forbid, people actually buy machines that are appropriate to their needs.
post #111 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The iPad, assuming on the net, has as much storage as a chromebook, no?

The iPad with a good keyboard dock is just as viable for writing essays. Even more so for a tablet like the Eee Pad Transformer. All three have netbook style keyboards as near as I can tell.

I'd rather have an Android or iOS tablet.

I fully agree. That's why I said, an iPad 1 would a good competitor. Because you can do more with a tablet because of its form (and added sensors). That said, for pounding out an essay, nothing beats a decent sized screen, a keyboard and a mouse (or trackpad). And a Chromebook comes fairly close for that function. It'll feel and function like a regular laptop. You'll be able to plug in accessories too, like a regular laptop. Ultimately, it's meant for light purposes. It's not meant for the kind of stuff that most folks on here do (video and music editing, graphics, etc.).

Cheaper though? Not once you toss in that keyboard dock for the iPad. Samsung is selling a Chromebook for $429. Though, I'd still argue that these things have to get cheaper. But I don't think $429 is a bad starting price for what's essentially a light laptop. They are coming with 11 and 12 inch screens, not the shrunken screens and keyboards of most netbooks.




Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Except that MS Office is in the cloud as well and costs $6 per month for business users.

That's on top of the cost of the laptop and all the support to administer those laptops. But again, you don't have to lease. You can buy the laptops and just run off Google Apps for a lot less than $6 per user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Not $28. And you can deploy to your own servers which schools systems already maintains.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/offic...-software.aspx

And institutions will ultimately have to work out whether the cost of maintaining those servers and managing those laptops is worthwhile when it can all be outsourced to Google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

There's no need to deploy thin clients when most students bring a real laptop to school with them.

There's a huge chunk of the world, where not every student can bring a laptop to school. There are uses for this. But even where every student can afford a laptop, why should their parents be spending more than is necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

$28/month vs $0/month. Or less than $6 if you want to deploy MS Office 360.

It's $20 actually for education users. That includes, the laptop, the software and management by Google. Alternatively, you don't lease. You just buy Chromebooks and manage everything yourself. Just buy Google Apps from El Goog.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Nobody is dismissing it just because it came from Google as much as the only reason it has any credibility is because it comes from Google.

I think there are some on here who are specifically dismissing it because it was from Google. If the same concept was launched as an Apple concept, specifically for the education sector, Jobs would be held up as a visionary doing great things for school kids everywhere.

I'm not saying this is perfect. Nor am I predicting success. What I find incredulous is how quickly people write off what seems like a good idea just because Google put it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Given how easily is seems HB Gary got compromised on Google I'd sure as hell not use GMail and Google Apps for business. The weakest link, even at a security company, is the executive staff. At least two-factor is available on Google apps but it's a real pain in the ass.

Fair enough. That's you. Nobody says that what's right for you, is necessarily right across the board, for everybody.
post #112 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Don't know if there is any link, but the ChromeBook has hit the financial news and:

AAPL down .63%
GOOG down 1.50%

in a down market

some context:

Today May 11
AAPL closed at 347.23, down 2.22 (-0.64%)
GOOG closed at 535.45, down 7.21 (-1.33%)
(from Yahoo finance)
post #113 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I don't think I understand.

1) Does it run an Atom chip or an ARM chip?

2) If Atom, how is it different from a netbook?

3) If ARM how is it different from a tablet?

4) What do you get that is worth a $20 month subscription?

5) Is a carrier contract or additional monthly charge for cell access?


How does this compete with an iPad at $499 (no subscription, no contract, month-by-month cell)


It might make sense in it were offered a package (hardware, software, subscription, cell data) for, say $20 up front and a 23 month contract at $20/month.

Otherwise... I must really be missing somethin'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I trying not to be obtuse here...

But, I see the ChromeBook as a dumbed-down netbook.


Last century, when I owned the computer stores, we sold a lot of computers and networks into education, from elementary thru colleges.

It takes a concerted effort to sell and support this environment... especially now with WiFi and/or back room servers.

Schools don't have much flexibility on what they can buy -- in CA, the schools often get money to spend on physical plant -- but none for teachers and supplies.

I do not believe that districts will be willing to replace already-paid-for computers with $20-per-month-forever plans... just my opinion.


Is there somewhere I can download the Chrome OS package to run on a Mac or Parallels PC so that I can see what it is and what it isn't?

Maybe then, I can make an informed opinion.


BTW, There is a live-blog of Google i/O at:

I/O Live

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

OK!

Several posters here are supportive of the Chrome OS and the ChromeBook.

I don't see it... yet!


Do you guys promoting the concept have some actual "hands-on" experience?

If so, where can I get some?


Help me see the light!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

But, apparently, it has been in use by business for a while.

I do understand the concept of a laptop. I have one. I have looked at netbooks -- never wanted one.

So, along comes a special, low-cost? laptop that just runs a web browser and some local copies of web apps.


Pardon me, but it is a leap in logic (at least for me) to assume that a browser and some web apps can do what I or any of the other 4 members of the household do on their computers.

Everyone can do surfing, email, WP, SS, etc. -- those are "meets min" for any computing device.

Can you create and edit a simple movie on a ChromeBook? We do this daily.

What about games or other specialty apps?


They say you can run apps while off line. What apps?


To me, the whole issue is going to be about:

1) the apps available for the device

2) whether these apps can satisfy the bulk of a person's computer needs

3) the cost

At $1,008 ($28 per month for 36 months) I can buy a pretty nice iPad, BT KB, and lots of apps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

See my earlier post!


Simply stated, the web provides about 10% of what we (5 people) use computers for -- it'd be a lot less if I didn't follow these forums.

When I'm at my Mac I typically use several apps. Currently I am using:

-- Safari
-- Mail
-- Interactive Brokers Stocktrader (done for the day, but monitor after-hour trades and news)
-- GarageBand
-- Apple FCP Motion 4
-- QuickTime 7
-- iPhoto
-- iTunes

Sure, some of this I can do through a Web OS -- but where, how do I do the things that can't?


I can visualize classes of uses (not users) where limited Web-based apps would be sufficient.

However, I do not believe that Web-based apps are sufficient to satisfy most uses in business, home and personal.

For example: is there a ChromeOS app to teach math; Spanish; how to tell time...

Edit: I know I'm gonna' get zapped for this...

But how is ChromeOS/ChromeBook different than WebTV with a built-in display?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here's an interesting question:

Will there be a Chrome-based tablet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Right now, I can't answer all your questions -- I don't have enough knowledge.

I will reserve final opinion until I do some research.

In the mean time, I will play devil's advocate.


I do have some pretty good intuition and 55 years worth of experience with computers and their predecessors.


As I understand the ChromeBook/Chrome OS offering it has to get critical mass to be broadly accepted.

I have yet to see anything to convince me that it will attain that critical mass.

I have seen a series of half-assed, half-hearted Google offerings -- that are announced with great noise -- then left to wither and die.

Who knows -- Chrome may be a whole-assed offering.


But a lot of Chrome's success depends on the enterprise where Microsoft is active and entrenched.

Much as I'd like to see MS get some come-uppance, I don't believe Google has the chops to compete in this arena (neither does Apple).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ya' know, sonny...

You're beginning to piss me off!

I find your responses elitist and demeaning.

You seem to think you know what "most people" use computers for -- if you were correct the majority of people would be using netbooks.


BTW, the way -- regarding "You've obviously never seen any kind of simple data entry job."

My first real experience with online data entry was to design and program a system for data entry to an IBM/360.

The year was 1967. I worked for IBM.

We used 24 IBM 1050 Selectric® typewriter terminals (Video terminals weren't available).

The data entry ran 24/7 for six months.

The data entry was done by high school and college students.


The application was to convert 2+ million 3x5 index cards to online data for the Clark County, NV Sheriff's Department. Las Vegas

Some notable items:
  • there was no format to the information -- it evolved over decades
  • none of the information was field-encoded (name, address, etc,)
  • some cards were typed, many were handwritten with things stapled to them and written on the back
  • many of the cards were ripped, taped, folded -- even rolled and dipped in coffee
  • the IBM terminals would disintegrate after a week of continuous use -- not built for that

We gave the data entry people 2 days training.

They would encode each item of information as follows:

XX=yyyyyyyyy return

where XX=was 2-3 digit code, and yyyyyyy was the data

codes were things like: fn, ln fp1 (fingerprint 1)...


After each shift we would print the records and computer check codes and content for anomalies. If we ran into an unexpected data field we would generate a new code, and adjust the editing program

Each day, the shift officer in charge would review the results with each DE operator.

Bonuses/raises were awarded for performance.

After about three weeks, we pretty much had encountered all the varying fields of information -- and so we began the database design (hand programmed -- no SQL in those days).


The effort was a resounding success -- I got a bonus and a promotion -- as did several members of the Sheriff's department and the Computer Center staff.



In the intervening years I've done lots of data entry apps including writing web shopping carts in JavaScript, Perl and ColdFusion.


So, sonny -- why don't you buzz off (to put it nicely) and stop telling me what I do and don't know, have seen or understand!


Above are all the posts I made to this thread up to your post, below!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that.

I am NOT saying that the product is something he personally should find desirable or useful. But to write it off completely for everyone because HE can't find a use for it in HIS life even though others, (not just Jetz) have pointed out multiple use cases is kinda a dick move.

His response to Jetz (no matter how justified) was also "Elitist and demeaning."


I did get pissed off at being continually put down (look at the responses to my posts).


Aside from that how do you see that:

"From Dick's first post here he's been "Kind of a jerk" too. His attitude is "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" and is unwilling to move beyond that."


Please, read through my posts carefully and let me know -- I do try to use reason and persuasion and try and avoid name calling... but after a while...

If I came across as "Because it doesn't fit my usage, it's pointless" -- I didn't mean to, and will attempt to correct this.

I do enjoy the reasoned discussions at AI.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #114 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

1) You're assuming these laptops are going to grade schoolers in the lowest grades. They aren't. Pre-teens maybe. But that's as low as it will go.

Is this your own assumption or can you provide a source for this statement?
post #115 of 372
LOL

Its $28 per user, per month

NOT

$28 per machine, per month

So if a school only wants 50 computers to serve 250 students at educational pricing of $20 per user, per month that is 250*20 = $5,000 per month or $60,000 per year or $180,000 for the 3 year contract.

Now, to buy 50 iMacs at $1,149.00 that is $57,450 or about 1/3 the cost.
post #116 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

Is this your own assumption or can you provide a source for this statement?

My assumption. The thing is a laptop with a web browser open. Very young kids would probably be better off with an iPad.
post #117 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus View Post

LOL

Its $28 per user, per month

NOT

$28 per machine, per month

So if a school only wants 50 computers to serve 250 students at educational pricing of $20 per user, per month that is 250*20 = $5,000 per month or $60,000 per year or $180,000 for the 3 year contract.

Now, to buy 50 iMacs as $1,149.00 that is $57,450 or about 1/3 the cost.

Education pricing is $20 per month WITH a Chromebook per user. And that's if you contract with Google. You can buy the laptops at $429 a piece and do all the IT management yourself if you like.

At least try and understand the concept before you trash it.

The leasing offer is not tied to the launch of the OS. It's just a specific service that Google is offering. Companies will be able to make and sell laptops using Chrome OS through normal retail and wholesale channels.
post #118 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

some context:

Today May 11
AAPL closed at 347.23, down 2.22 (-0.64%)
GOOG closed at 535.45, down 7.21 (-1.33%)
(from Yahoo finance)

Problem with that is 2 fold: First, Wallstreet's shown it's complete inability to understand the tech market. Look at the past couple of years. They underestimate apple (every quarter) and overestimate some actions by others (Nexus One) even when it's clear to anyone who deals with tech that the Nexus One would NEVER be a big hit for two glaring reasons (before you get to os/hardware)
1) It was available ONLY online
2) It was available ONLY on the smallest major carrier
3) It was largely being sold for full retail

Those three things will kill ANY product trying to sell in the US cellular market. Also, Google posted amazing profits last earning call and the stock still tanked. How "Viable" a product will be is not decided by how the stock fluctuates, at least when it comes to large companies.

The second reason goes back to when Google went public they basically told potential investors that if they wanted to give Google their money, they were welcome to do so, but that Google wouldn't decide policy by what Wallstreet thought they should do. This should be apparent with who their new CEO is.

Profit is obviously important, but Google's making profit.

For the record, I don't think Apple makes policy depending on the moods of wallstreet either. but Google is more up front about that (and advertising is a lot harder to quantify than "we sold x number of Y device")
post #119 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

You can get a C2D with 4GB of RAM for $429? Where???

For starters, that's not what I said. I said that the monthly payment would be the same - and a desktop system would have a LOT longer useful life than one of those Google chapbooks.

But, have it your way. With about 30 seconds of effort, I found:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-s5753w-b/16472514

OK, It's an Athlon dual core rather than a C2D and 3 GB rather than 4, but it will perform very much the same. A little more effort would probably find one for about the same price, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

If your employees have a tough time figuring out how to work a web browser and your IT section needs to be retrained to support an OS that is essentially a web browser with the simplest hardware possible, you have much bigger problems than a simple tech changeover!

As usual, you've missed the entire point. Companies and employees have a workflow pattern. You're proposing completely disrupting that pattern - which costs time and money.

The fact that you have no business experience and therefore don't have any concept of how quickly a few wasted hours of "how do I do this" easily wipes out a few pennies a month in savings is YOUR problem, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

As for the cost, companies will decide on merit, of course. But I strongly suspect that if you use Google Apps already, there will be a strong case to go for Chrome. No more worrying about viruses. No more worrying about managing software baselines, etc. No more managing upgrades. Google does all that for you.

So companies have to throw away everything they're doing to switch to this crapbook - which doesn't even save them any money? What kind of crazy logic is that?

As for deciding on merit, I'm still waiting for an explanation of why a chapbook for $20 a month is any better than a real computer for the same price for the office environment.

Oh, and that doesn't even get into the MASSIVE security issues of letting Google run your business for you. I can see it now - all your confidential information goes to the highest bidder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Right....

I'm sure many of these companies have no experience dealing with Google from their years using Google Apps. And Samsung or Acer? Unproven hardware suppliers. Both of them.

So you're now confused with the difference between hardware and software? I'm not surprised.

So the fact that Google has experience with software now makes them experts in hardware? Are you REALLY that stupid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

So quick to pass judgement. People said that about the iPad too.

Only the stupid ones. The iPad was a completely different story. The iPad was a new paradigm which had massive advantages for the subset of people who wanted the ultimate in mobility for a media consumption device.

The Google crapbook has no advantages at all for the office environment:
- Portability is not an advantage for the office environment, it's a disadvantage because of theft
- It doesn't save any money compared to leasing real PCs
- It requires users to learn a new way of working and throw away their existing tools
- It gives Google access to all your corporate secrets

There's absolutely no advantage to switching from a $25 / month PC to a $25 / month crapbook for the office environment. So far, no one has given any rational basis for that switch.

One MIGHT be able to make such an argument if you're comparing mobile workers, but netbooks are already in that space - so what's the advantage of the crapbook over a netbook? Heck, if you want such limited functionality with a keyboard, you can buy a lot of netbooks for under $400 - and they are fully functional computers not Google Data Entry Terminals.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #120 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

Is this your own assumption or can you provide a source for this statement?

Gradeschoolers would most likely use a desktop system as the potential for accidents would be signifigantly less (less spills, drops, being stepped on, etc)

And if they were looking at mobile options, something like a Chromebook would still be a better option than an iPad. Think about it. What school board would think it a good idea to give elementary aged kids a big glass screen and ask them to type on it? A netbook form factor provides more protection.
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