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Hard drive upgrades restricted in Apple's new Thunderbolt iMacs - Page 2

post #41 of 106
This image shows a 7pin connector on a Maxtor drive from 2004. If this is what they are talking about it is not new.

I can accept that they are using pins for something new, but that wouldn't necessarily make anything incompatible as others have shown with their testing.
post #42 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltz View Post

That's true, but auto manufacturers also don't go out of their way to make you buy a new car (or take it to the dealer) if you have the skills and tools to, say, change your tires yourself, either.

I'm really hoping that this report is in error. Apple has never been terribly proprietary in regards to hard drives or RAM. (Yes, they used SCSI drives instead of IDE in the 80's/90's, but that was a performance choice. They were standard SCSI drives.)

The reasoning behind not supporting SSD caching baffles me.

How about OS support? How about waiting to see if it actually works or not? How about finding out what the performance increases really are and if they apply to the largest swath of users?

The tech sounds cool but if you listen to the This Week In Computer Hardware (last nights podcast) it's NOT as straightforward as the Intel marketing dept would lead you to believe.
post #43 of 106
Wow... the greed. Insatiable epic greed.

I knew I bought my last Mac Pro a few years ago... but always thought the iMac would be around as an option.

The environmental impact of this alone should make Apple completely ashamed.
I replace HDD's for people all the time (as it's the main reason older systems fail). People aren't going to fork over laughable extortionist prices for a HDD. It will be like when a logic board fails... just throw the whole machine away.

Apple is pushing out their ethical investors faster then predicted.

Consumerism is a sickness - not something to be celebrated and base an economy on.
Success based on the size of our landfills.
post #44 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltz View Post

That's true, but auto manufacturers also don't go out of their way to make you buy a new car (or take it to the dealer) if you have the skills and tools to, say, change your tires yourself, either.

Well, if you're going to use changing tires as being 'consumer maintenance friendly' .... then I would suggest that installing memory yourself would fall into the same category ... so I think my comparisons are still valid ... no?
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post #45 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenThousandThings View Post

Yes, it makes no sense. I can't believe that Apple wants to be the only avenue for repairs and upgrades to the drives, especially after the warranties expire on these machines.

It's quite likely that maxinc's comment earlier is accurate, and the OWC report that this story was based on was not entirely accurate, especially the bit about there being a "custom" SATA connector. If so, Apple Insider should update this story, since people don't read all the comments, and it is contributing to an unfounded panic.

Apple isn't the only avenue for repairs. Anyone can get certification from Apple to do repairs. And frankly, Apple generally will do a repair faster than any other outlet out there. I've seen MacBook repairs turned around in a day where the motherboard was being replaced, and that was even while sending it to Texas.

Apple sends a ton of out of warranty service my way because I think they really do want to be the only avenue for WARRANTY WORK.
post #46 of 106
What is the best Windows 7 based iMac alternative? I am suddenly curious.
post #47 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkling View Post

Thanks Apple for giving me another reason not to upgrade my iMac. Having the drive hard to reach is bad enough. Having it non-standard is even worse. The iMac is becoming something you have to throw away when anything breaks.

Do you really think that older Macs can be upgraded by savvy folks, like yourself so it is like the new stuff they are offering? Hardware and software development go hand in hand and Apple has an advantage other manufacturers don't have...they make it work. When they make changes they don't expect the user to just go out and buy an off the self part (whatever) ... and expect it to be a direct substitute. If it breaks get the proper part ... if you can't fix it ... find someone who can. I know you're smarter and can do it yourself with off the shelf parts... lots of luck.

I read so much of the ranting stuff that really doesn't make any sense.

I couldn't resist commenting on what I consider a silly viewpoint. Ranting won't change what is, but maybe you'll get some sympathy from other ranters. FWIW.
post #48 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxinc View Post

The OWC report is quite inaccurate and I wish they did some more testing or at least read the forums before creating mass panic.

The SATA data connectors are very standard and so is the SATA power cable feeding the hard drive. The only difference is that they used 7 wires instead of 5, probably some extra grounds.

I installed a Vertex3 SSD and used a plain 4 wire Y-splitter sata power cable which effectively discards the 3.3V from the apple's wiring and only feeds 5V and 12V to the original drive. Guess what, fan speed is as quiet as it can get and the Apple Hardware Test passes successfully.

I went further and moved the internal HDD from SATA0 to SATA1 port to better accommodate the SATA connector for the SSD and this didn't create any adverse effects.

Another member of the forum swapped the 1TB WD Black with a 2TB WD Black and again, no adverse effect, Hardware Test completed successfully.

With the SSD in place now, the only thing I can hear is my breath reflected by the glass screen

The mods should shut this thread down after this post. Or edit the story.

It's disappointing -- but not at all surprising -- to see many posters continuing their yapping and venting, without their bothering to read what's been said in the thread so far.

I am reposting it for that reason.

(Thanks, maxinc).
post #49 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

This image shows a 7pin connector on a Maxtor drive from 2004. If this is what they are talking about it is not new.

I can accept that they are using pins for something new, but that wouldn't necessarily make anything incompatible as others have shown with their testing.

You're looking at the data connector and the report refers to the power connector which physically is still the same as all SATA drives. What has changed it that a regular SATA power cable uses 4 pins (out of 15 total) and the new iMac uses the same 4 pins plus 3 additional pins for reporting drive conditions.
post #50 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

What is the best Windows 7 based iMac alternative? I am suddenly curious.

<crickets>
post #51 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

With the advent of the first iMac, Apple seemed to embrace open standards, like USB. Gone were proprietary standards like ADB and localtalk.

There were good reasons to drop ADB, but being proprietary wasn't the first or even main one, since other companies, such as Sun, also used the bus.

Quote:
Alas, with Apple's astounding success over the last decade has come an arrogance that believes that open standards are no longer in Apple's best interest. We saw this trend with the latest MacBook Air and its proprietary SSD.

Yeah, the "proprietary" SSD that you can get from vendors like Other World Computing.

There are plenty of things to tweak Apple about; but one should choose things that actually do apply.
post #52 of 106
I was always hesitant due to the super glossy glass, but this move significantly decreased the chances I would purchase an iMac, which is a shame . Beautiful, yes. Right for me? Maybe not...
post #53 of 106
The sky is falling again!?

Why is there always such hysteria over nothing when it concerns Apple products?
post #54 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gxcad View Post

I was always hesitant due to the super glossy glass, but this move significantly decreased the chances I would purchase an iMac, which is a shame . Beautiful, yes. Right for me? Maybe not...

It is sad but the only thing decreasing the chances for you of purchasing a new iMac is the OCW false and incomplete report which is made worst by the press quickly picking up the story.

The hard drives in the 2011 are much easier upgradeable than the 2010 as seen here. Many users, me included have done it.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...0&postcount=48
post #55 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

The mods should shut this thread down after this post. Or edit the story.

It's disappointing -- but not at all surprising -- to see many posters continuing their yapping and venting, without their bothering to read what's been said in the thread so far.

I am reposting it for that reason.

(Thanks, maxinc).

The only thing they did was to ban my account for no specified reason after I posted the 2nd message.
post #56 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxincuk View Post

The only thing they did was to ban my account for no specified reason after I posted the 2nd message.

They did?

Funny, you are still available under maxinc.
post #57 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

They did?

Funny, you are still available under maxinc.

I created another id. Not sure what happened to the original one. but I got this message when I posted the 2nd message:

Quote:
You have been banned for the following reason:
No reason was specified.

Date the ban will be lifted: Never
post #58 of 106
While it was interesting to see that someone replaced a 1TB drive with a 2TB one from the exact same manufacturer and model line, that doesn't prove that I can stick any drive I want into an iMac and have it work properly.

Even if I was willing to let Apple do the labour to replace a dead hard drive out of warranty it would drive me crazy to pay 50-100% too much for the part.
post #59 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Bonehead.

Embracing open, commonly supported standards is what got Apple here. Now Apple wants to relive the nineties.

That's what I was thinking, but let's hold out until more information comes forward. Let's not jump to any conclusions, just yet.
post #60 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

While it was interesting to see that someone replaced a 1TB drive with a 2TB one from the exact same manufacturer and model line, that doesn't prove that I can stick any drive I want into an iMac and have it work properly.

It was my mistake and I apologise. It was a 1TB Seagate that was replaced with a 2TB WD Black as seen here: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...0&postcount=48

Another user added a 3TB Seagate Baracuda XT without any problems.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...9&postcount=65

Granted there may be some incompatibilities out there, but stating that apple had restricted the upgradability of the new iMacs is just wrong. They, in fact, made it easier compared to the 2010 iMac since the silly thermal sensor is no longer required.
post #61 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackaninny View Post

You're looking at the data connector and the report refers to the power connector which physically is still the same as all SATA drives. What has changed it that a regular SATA power cable uses 4 pins (out of 15 total) and the new iMac uses the same 4 pins plus 3 additional pins for reporting drive conditions.

Coming from someone that doesn't own an iMac, this completely doesn't make sense. The SATA power connector connects straight to the power supply on normal computers. Does it split the wires? How would it get information from a power port? It would make sense if they use additional pins on the SATA data connector, but not the power connector. Am I missing something?
post #62 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

Coming from someone that doesn't own an iMac, this completely doesn't make sense. The SATA power connector connects straight to the power supply on normal computers. Does it split the wires? How would it get information from a power port? It would make sense if they use additional pins on the SATA data connector, but not the power connector. Am I missing something?

You are right. The OWC report is misleading and incomplete. I replaced the 7 wire connector with a plain 4 wire y-splitter sata and the system works just fine with normal fan speeds and AHT successfully. The new iMacs don't get the temperature readings from the power connector.

The reason I think they used 7 wires instead of 5 is because they wires themselves are really thin so it would make sense to double the 12V and 5V lines just as the SATA power connector has 3 pins allocated for each wire that comes in.
post #63 of 106
Hell, forget about upgrading - what about replacing the HD? I had to replace mine after about 2 years. The new Hitachi 1TB drive to replace the original WD 500GB cost about a hundred bucks, and it took me about an hour to do it myself (working slowly and being carful).

Hard drives will always fail eventually. We need to be able to replace them when they do.
post #64 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkling View Post

Thanks Apple for giving me another reason not to upgrade my iMac. Having the drive hard to reach is bad enough. Having it non-standard is even worse. The iMac is becoming something you have to throw away when anything breaks.

Ah, bless you for believing every bit of FUD that is spread. The report is incorrect, the imac is sold as a sealed unit, with the only user upgradeable component being the RAM. Opening the machine invalidates your warranty. Furthermore the SATA connection is standard.

So a machine which is not sold as having a user replaceable hard drive actually is upgradeable with a bit if technical know how. This is not a story.

Yes, if the machine breaks you have to send it for repair. What's so unusual about that?

So much crud is posted in these forums it's almost laughable.

Someone posts some crap with no evidence and you're all ready to believe it, with no supporting evidence or first hand experience? Laughable.

While we're at it - mac's can't run Microsoft software, they're only for designers and are more expensive than windows machines with the same performance...
post #65 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

Wow... the greed. Insatiable epic greed.

I knew I bought my last Mac Pro a few years ago... but always thought the iMac would be around as an option.

The environmental impact of this alone should make Apple completely ashamed.
I replace HDD's for people all the time (as it's the main reason older systems fail). People aren't going to fork over laughable extortionist prices for a HDD. It will be like when a logic board fails... just throw the whole machine away.

Apple is pushing out their ethical investors faster then predicted.

Consumerism is a sickness - not something to be celebrated and base an economy on.
Success based on the size of our landfills.

Read the article. Your pst is pointless. What environmental impact? Nonsense based on fallacy.
post #66 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

While we're at it - mac's can't run Microsoft software, they're only for designers and are more expensive than windows machines with the same performance...

I currently don't own a Mac anymore, but this bit of misinformation has always irked me. People don't see how much better made they are and the fact that OS upgrades are so dirt cheap. Macs are worth every penny of their price. I've been itching for a laptop, and I've been shopping both PC's and Macs. I just cringe whenever a PC is even close to a Mac in price, as I think to myself that I could get Apple quality at those prices and be happier. If a PC even comes close to a Mac price, I'd go Mac any day. I'll probably be getting one for my next computer purchase, finally, after 10 years since I turned off my last one for good.

Anyway, that's completely off topic. I suggest people take a wait and see approach. It could be a complete bunch of crap from someone trying to slam the Mac. There are plenty of those out there...
post #67 of 106
Lol @ all the people still whining after maxinuk's initial post. I wonder how many of you have a mac or would actually consider buying an iMac...
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post #68 of 106
This iMac design has existed since October 2009 and has had restrictions (or obstacles at least) in place from day 1. Same with the mid-2010 refresh. While I love the design, I miss my SSD's and being able to make upgrades to MY machine. Not only will I not spend the ridiculous amounts of money that Apple wants for their SUB-par SSD's, but I want to be the one who makes the choice as to what SSD(s) go(es) into my machine.

As I noted, not all SSD's are created equal and Apple has been using Toshiba ones both in the iMac and the MacBook Air, although they recently switched to significantly faster Samsung SSD's, at least on the Air.

I'm about to buy another 27-incher of these next-gen iMac's and after going through THREE (3) bad iMac's (2 of them had bad screens and in one, the audio out jack didn't work right). Needless to say, I've come to know the various hard drives they use in all of them. First of all, it doesn't matter if you're getting a 21.5" or 27". You'll get either a Seagate or a WDC for a 1TB and a Hitachi if you choose a 2TB. The one you want is the Western Digital, the Caviar Black to be exact. By contrast, the Seagate (Barracuda ST31000...AS(Q) drives are LOUD, whereas the WDC 1TB's are virtually completely SILENT and run incredibly well. The difference is not only noticeable but very significant. As soon as I have a buyer for my current iMac, I'm heading straight to the store. I already warned them when I was there to swap out my iPad 2 for a THIRD one. My bad for ordering online instead of going into a store.

Having said all of this, my iMac that I bought last July is on 24/7, literally, and it's seeing a LOT of use and it performs superbly. I love it. So did my iPad 1 and so does my iPad 2, but sometimes, it looks like there is some pain involved at the time of obtaining the actual product.

I got them good for every time they made me come back for another iMac but this time, I think I will just open it up, take the damn thing out of the box inside the store, have them plug it in and take out my microscope so as to actively try to find something. ANYTHING. And if I find so much as one bad pixel on the very end of the screen, they will go back and get the next out. Once the screen passes MY standard for perfection, I'll try every other component that I CAN inside the store, ther most important of which will be the hard drive. I won't jump through these hoops again where I find out after unpacking my iMac, setting it up, configuring it only to find something wrong with it in the process, such as an imperfection in the screen or a loud hard drive. They're going to bring out one after another until I see the letters WDC in System Profiler on a crystal clear, immaculate and flawless 27" screen, and when I get the thing home I had better be able to hear a pin drop after running it through some stress tests for an hour. I don't care if I sound unreasonable, because guess what, it is POSSIBLE! The one I have now is that perfect, so why would I accept anything less than what I already have??? I urge all of you not to "take it" and "deal with it", because we're paying a bunch of money and most of us (I dare say) are REPEAT customers, aren't we??!??

I'm already getting anxious and angry about this and my purchase is still a few weeks away. WTF!??? Getting back to these new restrictions, why does Apple think this is necessary to do? Do they really think they'll sell more iMac's if they put up more and more barriers for the few end users like us who care to make any modifications at all???

(Mid-2012) 15.4" MacBook Pro w/ IPS Retina Display | Quad Core i7-3720QM 2.6GHz / 3.6GHz Max. Turbo | 16GB DDR3-1600MHz RAM | 256GB Samsung 830 SSD-based NAND Flash ETA 9/5

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(Mid-2012) 15.4" MacBook Pro w/ IPS Retina Display | Quad Core i7-3720QM 2.6GHz / 3.6GHz Max. Turbo | 16GB DDR3-1600MHz RAM | 256GB Samsung 830 SSD-based NAND Flash ETA 9/5

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post #69 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

All through the 80's and most of the 90's Apple loved to put proprietary hardware into their computers. Eventually, this design philosophy wound up biting them in the ass because their systems were too closed. With the advent of the first iMac, Apple seemed to embrace open standards, like USB. Gone were proprietary standards like ADB and localtalk.

Alas, with Apple's astounding success over the last decade has come an arrogance that believes that open standards are no longer in Apple's best interest. We saw this trend with the latest MacBook Air and its proprietary SSD. And now this. Apple will live to regret returning to its old bad habits.

And, to me, the worst part is how hypocritical Apple can be about it. They proclaim just how "open" Mac OS X is by sharing the Darwin source code, adopting various open standards, etc.

Apple, like a lot of other companies, uses open standards when it benefits them and craps on them when they don't. I, too, expect this will ultimately come back to bite them in the ass.
post #70 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunch View Post

I'm already getting anxious and angry about this and my purchase is still a few weeks away. WTF!??? Getting back to these new restrictions, why does Apple think this is necessary to do? Do they really think they'll sell more iMac's if they put up more and more barriers for the few end users like us who care to make any modifications at all???

Well get on with your research and preparation and stop listening to what incompetent companies like OWG spread in the news. The new iMacs are simply amazing. My 27" boots up in 8 seconds with a Vertex 3 SSD and runs 3 virtual machines simultaneously while I work in complete silence. Can't wait for the TB devices to spring.
post #71 of 106
READ MY POST! I am talking about my OWN PERSONAL experiences. I don't like OWC either, but nobody but you are talking about them. I LOVE my 27" iMac, too. And it's FLAWLESS. As I wrote above. It took me FOUR tries, though, and that's all there is to it, son...

(Mid-2012) 15.4" MacBook Pro w/ IPS Retina Display | Quad Core i7-3720QM 2.6GHz / 3.6GHz Max. Turbo | 16GB DDR3-1600MHz RAM | 256GB Samsung 830 SSD-based NAND Flash ETA 9/5

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(Mid-2012) 15.4" MacBook Pro w/ IPS Retina Display | Quad Core i7-3720QM 2.6GHz / 3.6GHz Max. Turbo | 16GB DDR3-1600MHz RAM | 256GB Samsung 830 SSD-based NAND Flash ETA 9/5

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post #72 of 106
Perhaps I misread your post and I apologise if I did. I was trying to say that the barriers you believe Apple is putting up according to OCW's report are nonsense since the new 2011 i5 & i7 iMac are totally upgradable as many people have done it already without any problems. If anything, they are more upgradable than then 2010 iMacs since the temperature sensor does no longer exist.
post #73 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunch View Post

READ MY POST! I am talking about my OWN PERSONAL experiences. I don't like OWC either, but nobody but you are talking about them. I LOVE my 27" iMac, too. And it's FLAWLESS. As I wrote above. It took me FOUR tries, though, and that's all there is to it, son...

I don't see how your "problems" are relevant to the erroneous report by OWC and the ensuing complaints about the "open-ness" of Apple's products.
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post #74 of 106
Haven't you heard? They're using proprietary memory. Instead of PC3-12800 they're using MAC10-4880478696838675309.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tink View Post

On the bright side I can't wait for it to arrive and I am stoked with everything else these iMacs offer. At least my 8 GB extra ram on order will be easy to install.
post #75 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

The auto industry does not design cars to suit "backyard mechanics" .... that's not their major demographic.

So why do the loudest/most frequent complainers in the computer industry expect Apple to design a computer to suit the "nerd" demographic?

The vast majority .... vast majority of consumers are like me. I don't want to work ON my computer .... I just want to work WITH my computer. This is not "rocket science" people .... just good consumer marker analysis 101.

Were you one of those people who argued against making Mac laptops easier to service because doing so would supposedly make laptops bigger and heavier? If so, then you must be disappointed that unibody MacBook Pros are thinner, stronger, and easier to service than the original models.

So should Apple make iMacs easier to service or not?
post #76 of 106
no matte option = no buy.

The rest is irrelevant, to me.
post #77 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

There might be a rational reason but honestly I don't think it exists. At least I can't come up with one. Maybe Apple is trying to get us to go back to running Linux. On the surface this move is stupid enough to impact sales and cause people to look for alternative platforms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxinc
The OWC report is quite inaccurate and I wish they did some more testing or at least read the forums before creating mass panic.

The SATA data connectors are very standard and so is the SATA power cable feeding the hard drive. The only difference is that they used 7 wires instead of 5, probably some extra grounds.

I installed a Vertex3 SSD and used a plain 4 wire Y-splitter sata power cable which effectively discards the 3.3V from the apple's wiring and only feeds 5V and 12V to the original drive. Guess what, fan speed is as quiet as it can get and the Apple Hardware Test passes successfully.

I went further and moved the internal HDD from SATA0 to SATA1 port to better accommodate the SATA connector for the SSD and this didn't create any adverse effects.

Another member of the forum swapped the 1TB WD Black with a 2TB WD Black and again, no adverse effect, Hardware Test completed successfully.

With the SSD in place now, the only thing I can hear is my breath reflected by the glass screen

Could it be that OWC is just trying to drum up business by making these assertions?
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post #78 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

All through the 80's and most of the 90's Apple loved to put proprietary hardware into their computers. Eventually, this design philosophy wound up biting them in the ass because their systems were too closed. With the advent of the first iMac, Apple seemed to embrace open standards, like USB. Gone were proprietary standards like ADB and localtalk.

Alas, with Apple's astounding success over the last decade has come an arrogance that believes that open standards are no longer in Apple's best interest. We saw this trend with the latest MacBook Air and its proprietary SSD. And now this. Apple will live to regret returning to its old bad habits.

The benefits brought to the MacBook Air justify the proprietary SSD blades. This, on the other hand, I don't quite understand. A bit of over-engineering, I think, an old Apple habit that indeed stifled adoption.
post #79 of 106
Well, this is good news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxincuk View Post

It was my mistake and I apologise. It was a 1TB Seagate that was replaced with a 2TB WD Black as seen here: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...0&postcount=48

Another user added a 3TB Seagate Baracuda XT without any problems.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...9&postcount=65

Granted there may be some incompatibilities out there, but stating that apple had restricted the upgradability of the new iMacs is just wrong. They, in fact, made it easier compared to the 2010 iMac since the silly thermal sensor is no longer required.
post #80 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Were you one of those people who argued against making Mac laptops easier to service because doing so would supposedly make laptops bigger and heavier? If so, then you must be disappointed that unibody MacBook Pros are thinner, stronger, and easier to service than the original models.

So should Apple make iMacs easier to service or not?

Either I wasn't clear or you just missed my point ... no problem ... I'll try to clarify my point.

As far as I, and countless others are concerned, (judging from the fact that Apple has outperformed, sales wise, their competitors for some time now) ... I don't care how easy or difficult it is to service any computer ... as I have no intention of doing anything more than upgrading Ram, in most cases.

In fact, this is precisely why I chose Apple over 12 years ago. There isn't the need for me to be a repair specialist to enjoy my Mac.

In other words, most consumers are like me ... they want to drive a car, not tune it up. They want to watch TV, not tinker with it .... and they want to use their Mac, not tinker with it .... having said that, I accept the fact that the computer industry has a sizable portion of the consumer base that loves to "do their own thing" .... fair enough, but that's not the demographic that Apple is chasing, nor should be, IMHO. ..... and their ever increasing customer base seems to suggest that they're correct with that philosophy.

The bottom line is this .... the "techies" seem to do all of the complaining about how bad Apple is for not making it easier to take their computer home and "re-design" it. Instead of the constant bitching ... why not do what the rest of us do ... if Apple isn't working for you ... find something that is. At least that way, the line ups wouldn't be so long. Cheers.
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