Obama's tax plan makes great sense. - Page 4

You don't answer the question.

Fancy that.

Is there anything that could be presented that would make you change your mind on Mormonism or Libertarianism?

We do that now, to an extent. Determining if someone is capable of working should not be all that difficult. We already do this for disability programs, workman's comp, etc. I don't see why an IQ test would be needed. Anyone with an IQ that prevents him from working and taking care of himself would be an obvious case. In fact, one of my wife's uncles fits this bill. He had deprivation of oxygen at birth, and has the mental capacity of perhaps a 10-12 year old. He lives in his mother's house (she is deceased), and his sisters drive for him, portion his meals, etc. But he does work part-time and can somewhat take care of himself. One wouldn't need a formal IQ test to determine he can't completely support himself. Just a conversation would do.

I do take the point, though. I think that the hardest part would be the transition between the two systems. The problems now is we've created an expectation: If you don't make enough money, you get assistance from the government. This creates other problems as well. Often, the money that one does make goes to things that are not necessities.

Example: I was in a grocery store a few years ago. I was behind a woman who was paying for paying for two orders...one with WIC checks and the other with cash. She bought dairy, bread, etc with the WIC check. Then she paid cash for cigs and a few other items (I don't recall exactly...but obviously they weren't WIC items). My first thought was "well that's good...WIC only pays for certain things for children...milk, bread, other food products." But then I thought "Wait...shit! That lady just paid for cigs with a $20 bill. She could have used that for her family instead. I just helped pay for her cigs!!!!"

Therein lies the problem. Here is someone that was likely getting assistance just because she didn't make enough money to live. But due to good ol' Uncle Sam, she got the taxpayers to take care of her basic needs. Man, how awesome would it be if the government bought 80% of my food, gave me a free cell phone, internet, housing and a basic vehicle. Imagine all the crap I could buy! The only difference is I make good money.

Of course, the caveat here is that our public school system is not starting everyone on a level playing field, but that's another matter to be addressed.

This is already done. Anyone who has a low enough IQ to be considered mentally retarded or mentally disabled receives Social Security Disability.

Disability and general relief are not the same though they might as well be thanks to the government. The Social Security Disability rolls have exploded with people claiming ailments like ADHD have made them incapable of working for life.

Exactly. We're talking about means-testing medicare and SS. Why not for welfare programs?

There is nothing that could possibly make me deny the very real, spiritual experiences I have had in which the Holy Spirit has affirmed the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, as currently found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm still learning about libertarianism, but the more I learn, the more I realize it is compatible with my Christian views. More compatible than socialism, anyway.

Then you are merely here prosthelytizing and not worth talking to.

Promise?

You sound so happy. No worries, I will continue to ridicule nonsensical beliefs and point out rampant hypocrisy. But only to get my jollies.

I thought mormons were supposed to be sickly nice. Apparently not.

Oh, I don't really mind your constant religious and personal attacks. I've endured such things since long before I encountered you. Even from people who were bold enough to say such things to my face.

I harbor no ill will toward you for it. Some people are inclined to attack things they fear or don't fully understand.

Let me know when you're actually interested in understanding my point of view on things. I'll be around.

I understand it. The only thing I fear about it is that it gets a larger strangehold on America and destroys more lives.

Your fear is understandable, but misplaced.

It should be directed at government, which enables people to impose their will on others through force.

Prop 8. Your disgusting after school bullying club tried to impose their will on others through force. Stop being such a motherfucking hypocrite on this.

Prop 8 is a very complicated issue with far-reaching implications. It's not as black-and-white as you are making it out to be. I won't take your flamebait. Calm down and show that you are interested in discussing this with me in a civilized and respectful manner and we'll talk.

It's not complicated. Your after school bullying club decided to throw their economic and social weight around to deprive others of marriage rights. Why does that sound so familiar? Oh wait, because you grew up to be the bully after being bullied yourself. Your after school bullying club was treated the same way with regard to their marriage rights.

You remember the pain of being hurt that way but still inflict it on others. That makes it even more deplorable and indefensible. Mormons, of ALL people, should be in favor of extending marriage rights to everyone.

BR, I'm trying to understand...

Are you opposed to using force and coercion to make people do what you want?

Are you in favor of using force and coercion to make people do what you want?

Are you only in favor of using force and coercion to make people do what you want when it's what you want them to do?

You really can't understand why people look at mormons and see hypocrisy on the Prop 8 issue?

I'm saying Jazzy needs to practice what he preaches. He's the one who preaches we cannot use force to make people do things. Yet he supports and organization that did just that...because Mormons don't like the icky icky gays.

I suppose he may.

But you are opposed the the effort by some (Mormons, et al) to use force (via Prop 8) to make others (gays) do what they (Mormons, et al) want. Is that right?

Someone can vote for or against a certain thing for a multitude of reasons. You are focusing on one possible reason and declaring that to be THE reason for ALL Mormons.

It's simply not the case, as illustrated in the link I just posted.

You know, you really haven't asked me how I would have voted on Prop 8 (I don't live in California) and why.

This actually seems like the most sensible approach. Get the state out of marriage altogether. Marriage then can become a combination of a legal contractual agreement combined with a "blessing" by the religious entity of your choosing (if you and they both agree).

Not sure which of the three currently hot threads where the discussion between freedom and not-freedom is being "debated" to post this in, so I just picked one.

This, I think, summarizes the disconnect fairly well: "Libertarianism versus Statism"

Fantastic read, MJ. Linking to it on my blog and social media accounts

If Mormons really wanted to get the government out of marriage completely, Prop 8 would have done just that. Instead, it targeted gays. It wasn't about voting no against a bill that supported gay marriage, adding to the government code. It was trying to PASS a bill that discriminated SPECIFICALLY against gays.

I'm not buying the bullshit excuses. Spin it however you want. Prop 8 was fundamentally bigoted.

BR, you are opposed the the effort by some (Mormons, et al) to use force (via Prop 8*) to make others (gays) do what they (Mormons, et al) want.

Is that right?


*As I understand Prop 8 is was basically adding something to the CA constitution saying that the state would not recognize a certain type of a relationship or only recognize a relationship of a certain type. But the basic point is the same.

MJ, I'm not going to let you twist this situation into some silly confirmation of your ridiculous beliefs. This has to do with Mormons being bigots and Mormon libertarians being hypocrites. Nothing more.

I'm sorry if you thunk I'm twisting something. My beliefs don't really have anything to do with it. I get how you are trying to point out some hypocrisy.

I was simply asking you a fairly straightforward question. I'm curious why you won't answer it.

I thought it was about Obama's tax plan. Silly me looking at posts and thread titles and junk like that instead of watching someone harass someone across multiple threads.