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Obama's tax plan makes great sense. - Page 4

post #121 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Mormonism and libertarianism are quite compatible. You should ask me about them sometime.

You don't answer the question.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #122 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You don't answer the question.

Fancy that.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #123 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Fancy that.

Is there anything that could be presented that would make you change your mind on Mormonism or Libertarianism?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #124 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Back to my initial question, and the point...

So... What company is going to start administrating the I.Q. Tests to determine which of the poor are genetically stupid and which of the poor are just lazy?

We do that now, to an extent. Determining if someone is capable of working should not be all that difficult. We already do this for disability programs, workman's comp, etc. I don't see why an IQ test would be needed. Anyone with an IQ that prevents him from working and taking care of himself would be an obvious case. In fact, one of my wife's uncles fits this bill. He had deprivation of oxygen at birth, and has the mental capacity of perhaps a 10-12 year old. He lives in his mother's house (she is deceased), and his sisters drive for him, portion his meals, etc. But he does work part-time and can somewhat take care of himself. One wouldn't need a formal IQ test to determine he can't completely support himself. Just a conversation would do.

I do take the point, though. I think that the hardest part would be the transition between the two systems. The problems now is we've created an expectation: If you don't make enough money, you get assistance from the government. This creates other problems as well. Often, the money that one does make goes to things that are not necessities.

Example: I was in a grocery store a few years ago. I was behind a woman who was paying for paying for two orders...one with WIC checks and the other with cash. She bought dairy, bread, etc with the WIC check. Then she paid cash for cigs and a few other items (I don't recall exactly...but obviously they weren't WIC items). My first thought was "well that's good...WIC only pays for certain things for children...milk, bread, other food products." But then I thought "Wait...shit! That lady just paid for cigs with a $20 bill. She could have used that for her family instead. I just helped pay for her cigs!!!!"

Therein lies the problem. Here is someone that was likely getting assistance just because she didn't make enough money to live. But due to good ol' Uncle Sam, she got the taxpayers to take care of her basic needs. Man, how awesome would it be if the government bought 80% of my food, gave me a free cell phone, internet, housing and a basic vehicle. Imagine all the crap I could buy! The only difference is I make good money.

Of course, the caveat here is that our public school system is not starting everyone on a level playing field, but that's another matter to be addressed.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #125 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Back to my initial question, and the point...

So... What company is going to start administrating the I.Q. Tests to determine which of the poor are genetically stupid and which of the poor are just lazy?

This is already done. Anyone who has a low enough IQ to be considered mentally retarded or mentally disabled receives Social Security Disability.

Disability and general relief are not the same though they might as well be thanks to the government. The Social Security Disability rolls have exploded with people claiming ailments like ADHD have made them incapable of working for life.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #126 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

This is already done. Anyone who has a low enough IQ to be considered mentally retarded or mentally disabled receives Social Security Disability.

Disability and general relief are not the same though they might as well be thanks to the government. The Social Security Disability rolls have exploded with people claiming ailments like ADHD have made them incapable of working for life.

Exactly. We're talking about means-testing medicare and SS. Why not for welfare programs?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #127 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Is there anything that could be presented that would make you change your mind on Mormonism or Libertarianism?

There is nothing that could possibly make me deny the very real, spiritual experiences I have had in which the Holy Spirit has affirmed the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, as currently found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm still learning about libertarianism, but the more I learn, the more I realize it is compatible with my Christian views. More compatible than socialism, anyway.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #128 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

There is nothing that could possibly make me deny the very real, spiritual experiences I have had in which the Holy Spirit has affirmed the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, as currently found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm still learning about libertarianism, but the more I learn, the more I realize it is compatible with my Christian views. More compatible than socialism, anyway.

Then you are merely here prosthelytizing and not worth talking to.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #129 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Then you are merely here prosthelytizing and not worth talking to.

Promise?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #130 of 151
You sound so happy. No worries, I will continue to ridicule nonsensical beliefs and point out rampant hypocrisy. But only to get my jollies.

I thought mormons were supposed to be sickly nice. Apparently not.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #131 of 151
Oh, I don't really mind your constant religious and personal attacks. I've endured such things since long before I encountered you. Even from people who were bold enough to say such things to my face.

I harbor no ill will toward you for it. Some people are inclined to attack things they fear or don't fully understand.

Let me know when you're actually interested in understanding my point of view on things. I'll be around.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #132 of 151
I understand it. The only thing I fear about it is that it gets a larger strangehold on America and destroys more lives.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #133 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I understand it. The only thing I fear about it is that it gets a larger strangehold on America and destroys more lives.

Your fear is understandable, but misplaced.

It should be directed at government, which enables people to impose their will on others through force.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #134 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Your fear is understandable, but misplaced.

It should be directed at government, which enables people to impose their will on others through force.

Prop 8. Your disgusting after school bullying club tried to impose their will on others through force. Stop being such a motherfucking hypocrite on this.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #135 of 151
Prop 8 is a very complicated issue with far-reaching implications. It's not as black-and-white as you are making it out to be. I won't take your flamebait. Calm down and show that you are interested in discussing this with me in a civilized and respectful manner and we'll talk.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #136 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Prop 8 is a very complicated issue with far-reaching implications. It's not as black-and-white as you are making it out to be. I won't take your flamebait. Calm down and show that you are interested in discussing this with me in a civilized and respectful manner and we'll talk.

It's not complicated. Your after school bullying club decided to throw their economic and social weight around to deprive others of marriage rights. Why does that sound so familiar? Oh wait, because you grew up to be the bully after being bullied yourself. Your after school bullying club was treated the same way with regard to their marriage rights.

You remember the pain of being hurt that way but still inflict it on others. That makes it even more deplorable and indefensible. Mormons, of ALL people, should be in favor of extending marriage rights to everyone.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #137 of 151
Here's a good read from another libertarian Mormon on the matter.

Quote:
We DO NOT believe that human law has the right to interfere in prescribing religious marriage ceremonies. We DO NOT believe that human law has the right to dictate who should be married. We DO NOT believe human law has the right to assume supreme authority on the definition of marriage. It is a religious ceremony, a religious union, and a religious sacrament. The government has no business involving itself whatsoever in a religious ceremony. It is obvious from scripture and latter-day prophets that marriage is only between a man and a woman. Therefore two people of the same gender do not have the right to marry, and the government cannot intervene to dictate otherwise. The only reason government involves itself in any way in the religious institution of marriage is for issues regarding divorce, i.e. the division of property, custody of children, etc.

Since the government cannot dictate to religious organizations who can be married, and marriage in religious organizations is between a man and a woman, the only unions to which a government can ever involve itself in with regard to marital dissolution, are those between a man and a woman.Since the government has clearly overstepped its bounds by involving itself with religious ceremonies and religious definitions, I have the right to voice my opinion to the government that it has intervened where it should not have.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #138 of 151
BR, I'm trying to understand...

Are you opposed to using force and coercion to make people do what you want?

Are you in favor of using force and coercion to make people do what you want?

Are you only in favor of using force and coercion to make people do what you want when it's what you want them to do?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #139 of 151
You really can't understand why people look at mormons and see hypocrisy on the Prop 8 issue?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #140 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

BR, I'm trying to understand...

Are you opposed to using force and coercion to make people do what you want?

Are you in favor of using force and coercion to make people do what you want?

Are you only in favor of using force and coercion to make people do what you want when it's what you want them to do?

I'm saying Jazzy needs to practice what he preaches. He's the one who preaches we cannot use force to make people do things. Yet he supports and organization that did just that...because Mormons don't like the icky icky gays.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #141 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm saying Jazzy needs to practice what he preaches. He's the one who preaches we cannot use force to make people do things. Yet he supports and organization that did just that...because Mormons don't like the icky icky gays.

I suppose he may.

But you are opposed the the effort by some (Mormons, et al) to use force (via Prop 8) to make others (gays) do what they (Mormons, et al) want. Is that right?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #142 of 151
Someone can vote for or against a certain thing for a multitude of reasons. You are focusing on one possible reason and declaring that to be THE reason for ALL Mormons.

It's simply not the case, as illustrated in the link I just posted.

You know, you really haven't asked me how I would have voted on Prop 8 (I don't live in California) and why.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #143 of 151
Here's another slightly different perspective on Prop 8 from another libertarian Mormon.

Quote:
A free society based on private contractual or covenantal relationships, however, is not what either side of Proposition 8 advocates. Proposition 8′s supporters have used the state to solidify what they consider to be the appropriate private relationship. Proposition 8′s opponents, on the other hand, want all of the state-provided benefits that come with being “married” and with that end in mind have used the state to force everyone to accept their relationships as equal.

Until we divorce marriage from the state, the right to marry will never be protected and the problems associated with Proposition 8 will be repeated throughout the world. Both sides of the Proposition, therefore, should agree to truly protect their natural rights by removing the state from the equation.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #144 of 151
Quote:
Until we divorce marriage from the state, the right to marry will never be protected and the problems associated with Proposition 8 will be repeated throughout the world. Both sides of the Proposition, therefore, should agree to truly protect their natural rights by removing the state from the equation.

This actually seems like the most sensible approach. Get the state out of marriage altogether. Marriage then can become a combination of a legal contractual agreement combined with a "blessing" by the religious entity of your choosing (if you and they both agree).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #145 of 151
Not sure which of the three currently hot threads where the discussion between freedom and not-freedom is being "debated" to post this in, so I just picked one.

This, I think, summarizes the disconnect fairly well: "Libertarianism versus Statism"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #146 of 151
Fantastic read, MJ. Linking to it on my blog and social media accounts

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #147 of 151

If Mormons really wanted to get the government out of marriage completely, Prop 8 would have done just that. Instead, it targeted gays. It wasn't about voting no against a bill that supported gay marriage, adding to the government code. It was trying to PASS a bill that discriminated SPECIFICALLY against gays.

I'm not buying the bullshit excuses. Spin it however you want. Prop 8 was fundamentally bigoted.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #148 of 151
BR, you are opposed the the effort by some (Mormons, et al) to use force (via Prop 8*) to make others (gays) do what they (Mormons, et al) want.

Is that right?


*As I understand Prop 8 is was basically adding something to the CA constitution saying that the state would not recognize a certain type of a relationship or only recognize a relationship of a certain type. But the basic point is the same.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #149 of 151
MJ, I'm not going to let you twist this situation into some silly confirmation of your ridiculous beliefs. This has to do with Mormons being bigots and Mormon libertarians being hypocrites. Nothing more.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #150 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

MJ, I'm not going to let you twist this situation into some silly confirmation of your ridiculous beliefs. This has to do with Mormons being bigots and Mormon libertarians being hypocrites. Nothing more.

I'm sorry if you thunk I'm twisting something. My beliefs don't really have anything to do with it. I get how you are trying to point out some hypocrisy.

I was simply asking you a fairly straightforward question. I'm curious why you won't answer it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #151 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

MJ, I'm not going to let you twist this situation into some silly confirmation of your ridiculous beliefs. This has to do with Mormons being bigots and Mormon libertarians being hypocrites. Nothing more.

I thought it was about Obama's tax plan. Silly me looking at posts and thread titles and junk like that instead of watching someone harass someone across multiple threads.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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