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Obama's tax plan makes great sense. - Page 3

post #81 of 151
5/18/11 at 9:37pm
Likewise... It can never be assumed that all of the poor are poor because they are stupid, irresponsible or lazy. Some people are actually poor because of circumstances beyond their control. Even if they are stupid, that can be something genetic that is beyond their control. So I guess what you're suggesting is to just let the stupid ones suffer, and maybe they will die, and through Social Darwinism we'll progress as a species...
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post #82 of 151
5/18/11 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Likewise... It can never be assumed that all of the poor are poor because they are stupid, irresponsible or lazy.

I don't know of anyone claiming this. Smells like a straw man.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Some people are actually poor because of circumstances beyond their control.

Sometimes, yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Even if they are stupid, that can be something genetic that is beyond their control. So I guess what you're suggesting is to just let the stupid ones suffer, and maybe they will die, and through Social Darwinism we'll progress as a species...

Well, I'm not suggesting any such thing. I also don't know of anyone else that's suggesting this. But, whatever... Smells like another straw man.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #83 of 151
5/18/11 at 9:57pm
So... What company is going to start administrating the I.Q. Tests to determine which of the poor are genetically stupid and which of the poor are just lazy?
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post #84 of 151
5/18/11 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So... What company is going to start administrating the I.Q. Tests to determine which of the poor are stupid and which of the poor are just lazy?



If you think there's a need for such a thing and you think its important, maybe you'll start a company to do this.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #85 of 151
5/18/11 at 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post



If you think there's a need for such a thing and you think its important, maybe you'll start a company to do this.

There's no need for this only if we provide assistance for ALL of the poor, and not just some of them. Get it now?
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post #86 of 151
5/18/11 at 10:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There's no need for this only if we provide assistance for ALL of the poor, and not just some of them.

Yikes! That was a major logical leap. You might be eligible for a refund on that logic class you allegedly got good grades in.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #87 of 151
5/18/11 at 11:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yikes! That was a major logical leap. You might be eligible for a refund on that logic class you allegedly got good grades in.

On the contrary. You're missing my point again. If you cannot differentiate which of the poor needs help, and you're not extending help to all of the poor, then what on Earth do you expect to do? Give out assistance by lottery? Help based on degree of poverty (never mind that the 'poorest' might be the poorest because they're the laziest)? Anyway, wouldn't that just be redefining the poverty level?

So how will you determine exactly whom to help? Or are you saying you wouldn't help all, nor some (through your secret worthiness determination system, I guess), but NONE of the poor directly?
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post #88 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

On the contrary. You're missing my point again. If you cannot differentiate which of the poor needs help, and you're not extending help to all of the poor

First, I do see the point that you're trying to make, but I'm not biting until you make your case.

Second, there is a logical leap here. It's in the notion that because someone is "stupid" (as you have suggested) they need the help you're suggesting. This is a non sequitur.

Third, there's the assumption that government-provided welfare actually helps more than it hurts.

Finally, there's the assumption that help cannot be extended to people on a localized, individualized, case-by-case basis rather than through an all-encompassing "Let's just make this for anyone and everyone" approach.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #89 of 151
5/19/11 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

On the contrary. You're missing my point again. If you cannot differentiate which of the poor needs help, and you're not extending help to all of the poor, then what on Earth do you expect to do? Give out assistance by lottery? Help based on degree of poverty (never mind that the 'poorest' might be the poorest because they're the laziest)? Anyway, wouldn't that just be redefining the poverty level?

So how will you determine exactly whom to help? Or are you saying you wouldn't help all, nor some (through your secret worthiness determination system, I guess), but NONE of the poor directly?

No, you're missing the point. The point is that we should not be helping people simply BECAUSE they are poor. If someone does not have the mental and/or physical ability to work/support himself, he should be assisted in whatever way possible. In other words, we should not help people based on financial need. We should help them based on ability (note: I am not arguing against short-term assistance like unemployment or homeless shelters, etc.)
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #90 of 151
5/19/11 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Finally, there's the assumption that help cannot be extended to people on a localized, individualized, case-by-case basis rather than through an all-encompassing "Let's just make this for anyone and everyone" approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

No, you're missing the point. The point is that we should not be helping people simply BECAUSE they are poor. If someone does not have the mental and/or physical ability to work/support himself, he should be assisted in whatever way possible. In other words, we should not help people based on financial need. We should help them based on ability (note: I am not arguing against short-term assistance like unemployment or homeless shelters, etc.)

Back to my initial question, and the point...

So... What company is going to start administrating the I.Q. Tests to determine which of the poor are genetically stupid and which of the poor are just lazy?
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post #91 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Back to my initial question, and the point...

So... What company is going to start administrating the I.Q. Tests to determine which of the poor are genetically stupid and which of the poor are just lazy?

I'm not sure what the point of this question is.

If your point is that only government could administer such tests, it's absurd.

If your point is that administering such tests in the first place is absurd, I agree with you.

A top-down approach - a "War on Poverty" waged by the state - doesn't work. In fact, it exacerbates the problem, as we are all witnessing.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #92 of 151
5/19/11 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If your point is that administering such tests in the first place is absurd, I agree with you.

This, we agree on.
Quote:
A top-down approach - a "War on Poverty" waged by the state - doesn't work. In fact, it exacerbates the problem, as we are all witnessing.

This we don't agree on. The problem is not exacerbated anywhere it is being used except in the US, where the naysayers make sure that everything is done half-assed.
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post #93 of 151
5/19/11 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This, we agree on.

This we don't agree on. The problem is not exacerbated anywhere it is being used except in the US, where the naysayers make sure that everything is done half-assed.

Perhaps because it requires giving the state power that the average American is still not yet willing to give up.

There is poverty everywhere, even in hallowed Denmark.

Trying to compare the United States to other places proves ultimately futile, however, as there really is no other place like the United States.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #94 of 151
5/19/11 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Perhaps because it requires giving the state power that the average American is still not yet willing to give up.

Yep.
Quote:
There is poverty everywhere, even in hallowed Denmark.

Nope. Not really.
Quote:
Trying to compare the United States to other places proves ultimately futile, however, as there really is no other place like the United States.

That's certainly true.
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post #95 of 151
5/19/11 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yep.
Nope. Not really.
That's certainly true.

Well I suppose it depends on your definition of poverty.

Is there really poverty in the United States? On the same scale as say...Brazil?

Let me tell you, having lived in Brazil for 2 years, our idea of poverty would be considered a life of privilege to most Brazilians.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #96 of 151
5/19/11 at 1:54pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
So how difficult was it to try to convert Catholics into Mormons on your mission there?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #97 of 151
5/19/11 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So how difficult was it to try to convert Catholics into Mormons on your mission there?

http://newsroom.lds.org/country/brazil

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #98 of 151
5/19/11 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Well I suppose it depends on your definition of poverty.

Is there really poverty in the United States? On the same scale as say...Brazil?

Let me tell you, having lived in Brazil for 2 years, our idea of poverty would be considered a life of privilege to most Brazilians.

True. Do you think it's fair that we expect the American poor to be living more comfortably than the Brazilian poor? Should we just let the American poor drop to that level of poverty?
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post #99 of 151
5/19/11 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

True. Do you think it's fair that we expect the American poor to be living more comfortably than the Brazilian poor? Should we just let the American poor drop to that level of poverty?

Why should "we" be making decisions about other peoples' lives in the first place?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #100 of 151
5/19/11 at 4:56pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Why should "we" be making decisions about other peoples' lives in the first place?

Prop 8. You have no moral high ground here. Either denounce your church or refrain from using that argument.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #101 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:09pm
If Prop 8 failed you would be lauding it as an example of "true democracy at work".

I've made my position on the subject quite clear.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #102 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Why should "we" be making decisions about other peoples' lives in the first place?

Compassion. Empathy. Kindness.
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post #103 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If Prop 8 failed you would be lauding it as an example of "true democracy at work".

I've made my position on the subject quite clear.

Tithing. Megatemples. Again, you've made your argument on yhe subject quite clear. And it's still weak and hypocritical.
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post #104 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Compassion. Empathy. Kindness.

Wow. I gotta say, that's fairly bizarre reasoning.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #105 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:38pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If Prop 8 failed you would be lauding it as an example of "true democracy at work".

I've made my position on the subject quite clear.

If prop 8 had failed, I'd have said, "Great! A majority of Californians aren't ignorant assholes."

You sure have made your position quite clear. You are a giant flaming hypocrite. You want more rights for everyone (except those nasty homos). You support an organization that explicitly tries to make decisions about other people's lives.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #106 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wow. I gotta say, that's fairly bizarre reasoning.

You would.
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post #107 of 151
5/19/11 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If prop 8 had failed, I'd have said, "Great! A majority of Californians aren't ignorant assholes."

You sure have made your position quite clear. You are a giant flaming hypocrite. You want more rights for everyone (except those nasty homos). You support an organization that explicitly tries to make decisions about other people's lives.

Just think of all the gay dads and lesbian moms that could get married and procreate! He's being compassionate for the sake of all those unborn babies!
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post #108 of 151
5/19/11 at 6:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You support an organization that explicitly tries to make decisions about other people's lives.

Nope. That would be the government.

I think the government should be out of marriage altogether. But the reality is it's quite involved.

I'm not just going to sit on the sidelines.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #109 of 151
5/19/11 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You would.

I'm sure that I'm the only one who thinks that my compassion, empathy and kindness gives me any right whatsoever to make decisions for anyone else's life is...bizarre.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #110 of 151
5/19/11 at 6:34pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Nope. That would be the government.

I think the government should be out of marriage altogether. But the reality is it's quite involved.

I'm not just going to sit on the sidelines.

So you don't like that government is involved in marriage so it's important to make sure to vote to deny rights to a specific group that if you had your way would actually be able to do as they please.

Since the government is involved, might as well toss out all your libertarian ideals and marginalize a group of people your religion hates! Makes perfect sense.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #111 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So you don't like that government is involved in marriage so it's important to make sure to vote to deny rights to a specific group that if you had your way would actually be able to do as they please.

Since the government is involved, might as well toss out all your libertarian ideals and marginalize a group of people your religion hates! Makes perfect sense.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #112 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:05pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

Your bigotry trumps your ideals. Got it. You talk a big game but refuse to practice what you preach. Par for the course with American religionists.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #113 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Your bigotry trumps your ideals. Got it. You talk a big game but refuse to practice what you preach. Par for the course with American religionists.

Thanks, BR.

Are you done, now?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #114 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:21pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Thanks, BR.

Are you done, now?

You said you have no right to tell other people what they can do.

You also belong to an organization that supported a proposition to tell other people what they can do. You even admit to supporting said proposition.

Reconcile the two statements. You do not get to dodge the cognitive dissonance here. Face it. Deal with it. Explain how you reconcile those two mutually exclusive positions. Or are you too much of a coward to go through that type of introspection? Or are you just too dishonest? I'd rather not believe the third option, which would be that you are too dimwitted to realize they do conflict.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #115 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You said you have no right to tell other people what they can do.

You also belong to an organization that supported a proposition to tell other people what they can do. You even admit to supporting said proposition.

Reconcile the two statements. You do not get to dodge the cognitive dissonance here. Face it. Deal with it. Explain how you reconcile those two mutually exclusive positions. Or are you too much of a coward to go through that type of introspection? Or are you just too dishonest? I'd rather not believe the third option, which would be that you are too dimwitted to realize they do conflict.

Your "gotcha" games are boring me, BR. You really need to come up with some new material.

Do you even know how I voted on Prop 8?

Not that it matters to you. Regardless of how I voted - or even if I didn't vote at all - you would be playing these same games.

Play with yourself.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #116 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:27pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Hypocrite, liar, or dunce? Which is it?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #117 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:29pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Is there anything that can be presented that would make you reconsider your Mormon yet also somehow libertarian worldview?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #118 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Hypocrite, liar, or dunce? Which is it?

Thanks for getting back on topic!

I'd say Obama is definitely a hypocrite and liar. Dunce? Well...he certainly gives off the air of being smart...

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #119 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:30pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Thanks for getting back on topic!

I'd say Obama is definitely a hypocrite and liar. Dunce? Well...he certainly gives off the air of being smart...

Funny. Not really.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #120 of 151
5/19/11 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Is there anything that can be presented that would make you reconsider your Mormon yet also somehow libertarian worldview?

Mormonism and libertarianism are quite compatible. You should ask me about them sometime.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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