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HP exec dismisses Apple and Intel's Thunderbolt in favor of USB 3.0

post #1 of 130
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PC maker Hewlett-Packard reportedly looked at the new high-speed Thunderbolt port created by Intel and Apple, but has decided for now to stick with USB 3.0.

HP's worldwide marketing manager for desktops, Xavier Lauwaert, spoke with PCWorld this week, and revealed that HP considered placing Thunderbolt in its new desktops revealed this week. But the company ultimately decided to stick with another specification also created by Intel: USB 3.0.

However, Lauwaert also revealed that HP has not ruled out placing Thunderbolt in future hardware. For now, though, the high-speed port was not appealing enough to the Palo Alto, Calif., PC maker.

"We did look at [Thunderbolt]," he said. "We're still looking into it. Haven't found a value proposition yet."

HP unveiled three new desktop PCs on Monday. One of the models, the Pavilion HPE H8 series, can be configured to include USB 3.0 ports.

Lauwaert said PC makers are "content" with the expansion of USB 3.0. He characterized Thunderbolt as a "more fancy solution" that HP is "not convinced" it should pursue.



For its part, Intel has said it views USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt as "complementary" to one another. The chipmaker has also encouraged developers to support both the Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 standards with any external peripherals.

Support for both Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 will appear in Intel's next-generation processors, code-named "Ivy Bridge." Those chips, which will arrive in 2012, are the successor to the "Sandy Bridge" processors that began shipping earlier this year.

At 10Gbps, Thunderbolt's data transfer speeds are 20 times faster than the current, widely available USB 2.0 specification. It is also twice as fast as USB 3.0, which offers 5Gbps speeds.

Thunderbolt debuted on Apple's latest MacBook Pro notebooks in February, followed by an iMac refresh released earlier this month. Apple is expected to quickly introduce Thunderbolt to the rest of its Mac lineup with subsequent hardware updates.
post #2 of 130
Didnt buy HP Before or after this comment.

While the Notebook I have to use at work is an HP, Its not my choice.

Is it not possible to have Both Ports? If they want to provide options that would be a good one in my opinion.

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post #3 of 130
Quote:
At 10Gbps, Thunderbolt's data transfer speeds are 20 times faster than the current, widely available USB 2.0 specification. It is also twice as fast as USB 3.0, which offers 5Gbps speeds.

To my knowledge, Thunderbolt is 10Gbps in both directions at the same time. That's very different than just 10Gbps. And USB3.0 has a theoretical max of 5Gbps, and will surely never once reach that speed outside of a theoretical tech demo. Also, it's not, to my knowledge, 5Gbps simultaneous in and out (could be wrong, but I don't think so), so yes, it's fine for iPhones, point-and-shoot cameras, etc., but give me Thunderbolt any day for storage, HD recorders, SLRs... and let's not forget the ability to daisy-chain an Ultra HD monitor off of that one single port at the same time. Fancy? Yes. Worthwhile? Absolutely.
post #4 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

To my knowledge, Thunderbolt is 10Gbps in both directions at the same time. That's very different than just 10Gbps. And USB3.0 has a theoretical max of 5Gbps, and will surely never once reach that speed outside of a theoretical tech demo. Also, it's not, to my knowledge, 5Gbps simultaneous in and out (could be wrong, but I don't think so), so yes, it's fine for iPhones, point-and-shoot cameras, etc., but give me Thunderbolt any day for storage, HD recorders, SLRs... and let's not forget the ability to daisy-chain an Ultra HD monitor off of that one single port at the same time. Fancy? Yes. Worthwhile? Absolutely.

The thing is, if not many companies are using it -- not just PC's but companies that make HD Recorders and external hard drives don't support it, then why should a company like HP support it?
post #5 of 130
HP may not even be around in a couple of years. That's how well they're doing. So I wouldn't put much (well, ANY) trust in their assessment of anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

The thing is, if not many companies are using it -- not just PC's but companies that make HD Recorders and external hard drives don't support it, then why should a company like HP support it?

That's a good and fair point. But it's also the problem with HP: There's not a cutting-edge or innovative bone in their corporate body. They'll do about as well as the cutthroat PC business does. No better. And maybe worse. Nothing distinguishes them.
post #6 of 130
That apple got back into the printer business. HP is extraordinarily irresponsible in terms of waste lack of compatibility and lack of reliability (in my experience)

If HP doesn't support what is clearly a superior technology, then let them rot in their own offal
post #7 of 130
The race is on.

PC makers will choose between adding Thunderbolt because it is good technology, or ignoring it to make Macs, yet again, the odd machine out and less compatible with most of the new stuff. HP have made their choice and, I suspect, are publically inviting the others to join in - after all, why gloat over a missing feature.

Superior technology may have little to do with success.

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post #8 of 130
Apple knows what they are doing, thunderbolt is the new firewire, it will go into all the pro equipment, cameras, screens,etc., and coexist with usb 3.0 offering better functionality. To what extent apple can/will switch over itself in its peripherals to thunderbolt, is a moot point.
post #9 of 130
I really hope it's not another FireWire.
post #10 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

To my knowledge, Thunderbolt is 10Gbps in both directions at the same time. That's very different than just 10Gbps. And USB3.0 has a theoretical max of 5Gbps, and will surely never once reach that speed outside of a theoretical tech demo. Also, it's not, to my knowledge, 5Gbps simultaneous in and out (could be wrong, but I don't think so), so yes, it's fine for iPhones, point-and-shoot cameras, etc., but give me Thunderbolt any day for storage, HD recorders, SLRs... and let's not forget the ability to daisy-chain an Ultra HD monitor off of that one single port at the same time. Fancy? Yes. Worthwhile? Absolutely.

Each Thunderbolt port provides a full peer-to-peer, dual channel 10 Gbps transfer connection. USB 3 is also dual channel but master/slave and so even at the rated transfer speed, it will not perform at or near the rated capability depending on the type of transaction, whereas TB might. The innovation in USB 3, (over USB 2), apart from speed, is that the slave can poll the master requesting a transaction which wasn't previously possible. With TB connected devices however, all connected devices (when daisy chained for example), can initiate a transaction, not merely request one. TB eats USB 3.
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post #11 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post

I really hope it's not another FireWire.

Can't you use USB3 in a Thunderbolt port?
post #12 of 130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

To my knowledge, Thunderbolt is 10Gbps in both directions at the same time. That's very different than just 10Gbps. And USB3.0 has a theoretical max of 5Gbps, and will surely never once reach that speed outside of a theoretical tech demo. Also, it's not, to my knowledge, 5Gbps simultaneous in and out (could be wrong, but I don't think so), so yes, it's fine for iPhones, point-and-shoot cameras, etc., but give me Thunderbolt any day for storage, HD recorders, SLRs... and let's not forget the ability to daisy-chain an Ultra HD monitor off of that one single port at the same time. Fancy? Yes. Worthwhile? Absolutely.

Thats how I understand it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

The thing is, if not many companies are using it -- not just PC's but companies that make HD Recorders and external hard drives don't support it, then why should a company like HP support it?

I suppose the same could be said about USB3.0 and any other port interface tech that is now standardized. We only started to see a decent number of USB3.0 capable accessories at this years CES.

What percentage of HPs machines offer USB3.0? Since most of their sales are very inexpensive machines I bet the number is quite low.

With Intel adding both USB3.0 and Thunderbolt alongside Ivy Bridge, and Apple being their vehicle to advertise Thunderbolt not to mention its inherent benefits and the continuing need for a display out option I bet HP will be supporting Thunderbolt as soon as the exclusivity between Apple and Intel is over. I also expect to see plenty of Thunderbolt-capable peripherals at CES next year.
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post #13 of 130
Well, it's not going to replace usb 3.0 anytime soon, and it will run alongside it very successfully as firewire did giving superior speeds at every point of it's lifecycle to usb. By the time they both run their course everything will be so wireless it will be immaterial who takes over the market in the very long run. None, I would wager.
post #14 of 130
Ah, yes... HP... the company that just gave a dismal forecast and is now down 8%.

The company of brilliant decisions...

Meanwhile... AAPL is up .25%
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post #15 of 130
Is Thunderbolt suitable for all uses? Would a Thunderbolt memory stick be viable?

I have no idea about how expensive Thunderbolt is to implement or what the licensing fees are like.

From a position of ignorance, Thunderbolt has all of the characteristics of Firewire mkII.
post #16 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

HP may not even be around in a couple of years. That's how well they're doing. So I wouldn't put much (well, ANY) trust in their assessment of anything.



That's a good and fair point. But it's also the problem with HP: There's not a cutting-edge or innovative bone in their corporate body. They'll do about as well as the cutthroat PC business does. No better. And maybe worse. Nothing distinguishes them.

The sad fact is that HP used to be the epitome of cutting edge. That is the part of their DNA that Taligent took with them when they split off. HP was founded and run by engineers (Hewlett and Packard) and I believe, greatly admired by Jobs and Wosniak. HP was one of the pioneers of 'just-in-time' manufacturing for example.
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post #17 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post

I really hope it's not another FireWire.

I dont think thats possible.

Consider the major differences:
  • Supported by Intel the way USB was supported by Intel.
  • Uses the same port as mDP with little chance of radically switching port interface designs between the 1st and 2nd generations.
  • This is the big one: Licensing costs aren't restrictive like we saw with FireWire.
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post #18 of 130
In 2012 Ivy Bridge will support USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt, and we'll see what happens. In the meantime, the best use for Thunderbolt is as an uber-docking port for the MacBook Air... except that MBA doesn't yet support Thunderbolt. Also, there's no docking port (or anything else to plug in).

Other than that, I love Thunderbolt as vaporware. It's like the android phone that will beat the iPhone, just as soon as Android 9 ("Paddycake") comes out.
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post #19 of 130
the things USB is good for are going wireless (keyboard, mouse, printer). The things Thunderbolt is good for demand higher throughput than USB 3.0 (external storage, HD cameras, external monitor support). Thunderbolt wins in a landslide.

Frankly, I don't care what HP does, since I don't use their products. Apple stood by Firewire for a decade (and continues to stand by) with almost no industry support; I see no reason to worry about whether HP, Dell, or anyone else supports Thunderbolt.
post #20 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Would a Thunderbolt memory stick be viable?

Possible, sure. Viable, maybe not for awhile. The cost of the Thunderbolt controller in the memory stick and read/write speed of NAND found in memory sticks will likely keep this from becoming common even though Im sure youll see some vendor attempt it.
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post #21 of 130
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Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Well, it's not going to replace usb 3.0 anytime soon, and it will run alongside it very successfully as firewire did giving superior speeds at every point of it's lifecycle to usb. By the time they both run their course everything will be so wireless it will be immaterial who takes over the market in the very long run. None, I would wager.

Firewire and USB 2 were used for essentially the same purpose, pulling and pushing data to and from devices. Thunderbolt however has much greater potential due to its speed and architecture, such as driving multiple monitors. The new iMacs can drive two for example.
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post #22 of 130
I wonder if this is closer to when Apple abandoned serial ports, floppy disks, etc?

HP is no longer seen as an innovator and this is not Apple going it alone, it is an Intel product. I suspect that in a couple of years Thunderbolt will be widely available.
post #23 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

the things USB is good for are going wireless (keyboard, mouse, printer). The things Thunderbolt is good for demand higher throughput than USB 3.0 (external storage, HD cameras, external monitor support). Thunderbolt wins in a landslide.

Frankly, I don't care what HP does, since I don't use their products. Apple stood by Firewire for a decade (and continues to stand by) with almost no industry support; I see no reason to worry about whether HP, Dell, or anyone else supports Thunderbolt.

Absolutely! Game over.
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post #24 of 130
HP is waiting for Thunderbolt to come integrated into Ivy Bridge next year, in the same way Apple is waiting for Ivy Bridge for USB3.
post #25 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

To my knowledge, Thunderbolt is 10Gbps in both directions at the same time. That's very different than just 10Gbps. And USB3.0 has a theoretical max of 5Gbps, and will surely never once reach that speed outside of a theoretical tech demo. Also, it's not, to my knowledge, 5Gbps simultaneous in and out (could be wrong, but I don't think so), so yes, it's fine for iPhones, point-and-shoot cameras, etc., but give me Thunderbolt any day for storage, HD recorders, SLRs... and let's not forget the ability to daisy-chain an Ultra HD monitor off of that one single port at the same time. Fancy? Yes. Worthwhile? Absolutely.

375MBps is nothing to scoff at.

USB 3.0 supports 3Gbps bi-directional communication in Super Speed mode (aka 3.0 to 3.0). USB is usable in hub configuirations and is backward compatible with billions of devices that already exist. There is no reasonable way to compare USB to LightPeak. LP is an evolution in communication protocols but there is no way to know if it will take off or not. E-SATA certainly did not.

HP is making a strategic decision to push back support of a new protocol till they can see if the market will support it or not. I think it's as sound a decision as Apple's to blaze the trail forward. Time will tell if LP is a usable tech or not. Right now it's looking as though it's trying to tie together functionality that Intel and Apple both don't hold any sway over. If ATI and Nvidia jump on board or they can get Western Digital and Seagate on board then we'll actually have something.

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post #26 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

The thing is, if not many companies are using it -- not just PC's but companies that make HD Recorders and external hard drives don't support it, then why should a company like HP support it?

Because it is compatible with USB 3.0, whereas the reverse can't be said.

Those who compare USB 3.0 to Thunderbolt obviously have zero understanding of the technologies, they are completely different.
post #27 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

Firewire and USB 2 were used for essentially the same purpose, pulling and pushing data to and from devices. Thunderbolt however has much greater potential due to its speed and architecture, such as driving multiple monitors. The new iMacs can drive two for example.

all the more power to thunderbolt. having said that firewire had a huge speed advantage over usb, AND could daisy chain computers and drives which is akin to daisy chaining monitors, and usb couldn't do that.
post #28 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezetation View Post

Because it is compatible with USB 3.0, whereas the reverse can't be said.

Those who compare USB 3.0 to Thunderbolt obviously have zero understanding of the technologies, they are completely different.

amen.
post #29 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

To my knowledge, Thunderbolt is 10Gbps in both directions at the same time. That's very different than just 10Gbps. And USB3.0 has a theoretical max of 5Gbps, and will surely never once reach that speed outside of a theoretical tech demo. Also, it's not, to my knowledge, 5Gbps simultaneous in and out (could be wrong, but I don't think so), so yes, it's fine for iPhones, point-and-shoot cameras, etc., but give me Thunderbolt any day for storage, HD recorders, SLRs... and let's not forget the ability to daisy-chain an Ultra HD monitor off of that one single port at the same time. Fancy? Yes. Worthwhile? Absolutely.

USB 3.0 is Full Duplex.
post #30 of 130
*most* people who buy HP's computers don't buy external HDs or have high-end DSLRs or external monitors. It's that simple. HP might include TB as an option on a high-end machine, but it will never be standard. Their customers just don't want/need it. Apple's customers are very different than HP's customers.
post #31 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

all the more power to thunderbolt. having said that firewire had a huge speed advantage over usb, AND could daisy chain computers and drives which is akin to daisy chaining monitors, and usb couldn't do that.

Further to my comments about the HP of old - when engineers were still in charge, HP produced the very best communications port bar none - GPIB (IEEE488)! Nothing compared in any measure accept in cost. To put that into context, the state of the art for alternatives was... RS232!

GPIB could be daisy chained too.

In those days, HP ruled in technical computing, no one else came close.

Again - gone with Taligent.
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post #32 of 130
Many of HP's printers are ethernet and WiFi enabled anyway. If Apple wants to encourage people to use Thunderbolt then they should add it to their Airport routers too, so that one can attach a thunderbolt printer to their network.

Btw: First printer manufacturer to adopt USB was Epson.
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post #33 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Many of HP's printers are ethernet and WiFi enabled anyway. If Apple wants to encourage people to use Thunderbolt then they should add it to their Airport routers too, so that one can attach a thunderbolt printer to their network.

Btw: First printer manufacturer to adopt USB was Epson.

a thunderbolt printer? Overkill much? If your printer isn't already wireless, then USB 2.0 is plenty sufficient.
post #34 of 130
HP sticks with USB 3.0... Quelle surprise! Why go fast when you can go slow as they always say! Of course their printers are pretty slow (they're good, but slow)

Once Memjet Technology releases the new line of commercial and home printers on America's markets through their partners, HP will no longer be in the printing business and if they don't get up to speed, they won't be in the laptop business any more either.

I'm chomping at the bit for a Memjet printer... his res inkjet, 60 pages a minute full color, and refill your own cartridges on the cheap rather than buying OEM cartridges from HP!!! The first printer is out in China and coming here soon if the Gods are willing!!!
post #35 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

USB 3.0 is Full Duplex.

The two channels in each USB 3 link are still master/slave and so won't perform nearly as well. The only real innovation is the ability of a slave to poll the master, hardly an innovation at all. \
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post #36 of 130
Same thing happened when Apple introduced Firewire 400, then 800. No PC company wanted to support it. But then people started buying things like iPods and portable hard-drives and those companies didn't have a choice. Apple just needs to push this technology further and show the real value from having such speeds, HP will run back on broken legs.
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post #37 of 130
Apple should include Thunderbolt in all devices, to avoid repetating the Firewire fiasco.
post #38 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

a thunderbolt printer? Overkill much? If your printer isn't already wireless, then USB 2.0 is plenty sufficient.

Not necessarily for speed, but for removing USB from laptops altogether and sticking with one port style. I guess Apple will also have to convert their mice and keyboards too \
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post #39 of 130
I'm amazed so many are looking at Thunderbot like it's FireWire simply because it is supported by Apple. Don't forget that Apple was the first major vendor to go all in with USB and that seems to have been somewhat successful.
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post #40 of 130
Yeah but can I still get a floppy drive?
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