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HP exec dismisses Apple and Intel's Thunderbolt in favor of USB 3.0 - Page 2

post #41 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm amazed so many are looking at Thunderbot like it's FireWire simply because it is supported by Apple. Don't forget that Apple was the first major vendor to go all in with USB and that seems to have been somewhat successful.

Great point.
post #42 of 130
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post #43 of 130
In other words, no point sticking in a port for peripherals that don't exist yet. That Intel chip still costs them money. If it were $20/chip * 15 million devices, that's $300 million that HP would rather keep to itself until Thunderbolt really takes off.

Remember that there's no point in sticking in this port unless other competitors are doing so also. In HP's consumer market segment, people aren't going to be buying $1,000+ RAID systems that would actually take advantage of the port.
post #44 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm amazed so many are looking at Thunderbot like it's FireWire simply because it is supported by Apple. Don't forget that Apple was the first major vendor to go all in with USB and that seems to have been somewhat successful.

And on Apple computers, Firewire was and is a great success.
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post #45 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by svesan03 View Post

HP sticks with USB 3.0... Quelle surprise! Why go fast when you can go slow as they always say! Of course their printers are pretty slow (they're good, but slow)

Once Memjet Technology releases the new line of commercial and home printers on America's markets through their partners, HP will no longer be in the printing business and if they don't get up to speed, they won't be in the laptop business any more either.

I'm chomping at the bit for a Memjet printer... his res inkjet, 60 pages a minute full color, and refill your own cartridges on the cheap rather than buying OEM cartridges from HP!!! The first printer is out in China and coming here soon if the Gods are willing!!!

How I hate inkjet printers, their problems are specialized paper, clogged heads, constant head cleansing, calibration, and the list goes on. I'll take a laser over an inkjet any day.
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post #46 of 130
I think that what we see thunderbolt is just tip of iceberg. Apple has spent a lot of efforts and investment into this technology. The coming Lions Mac OX will support Thunderbolt from OS low level which is the way to access to the peripherals. In addition to that, there will API available from OS to control and access to Thunderbolt. We'll hear more from WWDC.

We'll see other Mac OS based products coming out with Thunderbolt port (like MacBook Air, MacBook and Mini). When iOS has similar low level support and APIs, iPad and iPhone will have it. You just cannot add this kind of port if you don't have any support from OS!

HP has no way to provide good support for Thunderbolt if their PCs are Windows based. That's why HP has no choice to move to USB 3.0.
post #47 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMoan View Post

So in the end, Thundercat is going to be a waste of time and resources.

Thundercat perhaps but not Thunderbolt.
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post #48 of 130
So basically, Apple users will be stuck using USB 2.0 for years to come, for their external hard drives? Or what? That's what I use now for Time Machine. It's not great AT ALL.
post #49 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Not necessarily for speed, but for removing USB from laptops altogether and sticking with one port style. I guess Apple will also have to convert their mice and keyboards too \

I don't see why they'd do that. Do you have a supporting argument as to why you think they'd go that route?

Note that despite their support for FireWire they still use USB for many parts of the Mac. For instance, BlueTooth, IR Reciever, notebook keyboard and trackpad, SD card reader, and iSight camera are all off the USB bus.
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post #50 of 130
Quote:
P may not even be around in a couple of years. That's how well they're doing. So I wouldn't put much (well, ANY) trust in their assessment of anything.

Much like Firewire, Thuderbolt, the Cube, etc.

Quote:
If HP doesn't support what is clearly a superior technology, then let them rot in their own offal

What use is superior if there is nothing available for using that superiority?
At least HP has machines with BluRay tech. Where is that option for the fruit??

Quote:
I really hope it's not another FireWire.

With no support outside the fruit and intel, it is. With no standard backing, it is.
History has a tendency to repeat.

Quote:
Once Memjet Technology releases the new line of commercial and home printers on America's markets through their partners, HP will no longer be in the printing business and if they don't get up to speed, they won't be in the laptop business any more either.

I'm chomping at the bit for a Memjet printer... his res inkjet, 60 pages a minute full color, and refill your own cartridges on the cheap rather than buying OEM cartridges from HP!!! The first printer is out in China and coming here soon if the Gods are willing!!!

wtf is Memjet? Do you remember Thermal transfer and the other printing tech available in the 90s?? Where are those tech now?

Quote:
Apple should include Thunderbolt in all devices, to avoid repetating the Firewire fiasco.

Chicken and egg. More than 2/3 of the iOS userbase is on Windows PCs. There is less than 1% of Windows PCs released today with Thunderbolt port. Nobody will buy add-on cards for Thunderbolt ports. Thuderbolt is just useless!! Everything is USB! USB works FINE!!
post #51 of 130
Hardly anybody supported USB before Apple put it on its iMac. By not supporting it, HP is preventing customers from future options when Thunderbolt becomes popular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

The thing is, if not many companies are using it -- not just PC's but companies that make HD Recorders and external hard drives don't support it, then why should a company like HP support it?
post #52 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Sure, as my screen name implies I love Mac…

Your posts imply your name is ironic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

So basically, Apple users will be stuck using USB 2.0 for years to come, for their external hard drives? Or what? That's what I use now for Time Machine. It's not great AT ALL.

Why don’t you think Apple will support USB3.0 when it comes to Ivy Bridge?
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post #53 of 130
Apple innovates, others wait and see.
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post #54 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualie View Post

Yeah but can I still get a floppy drive?

You just have to tweak your floppy drive to run 2'000 rps, and plug your nose (might get smelly after a few secs.)
post #55 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Hardly anybody supported USB before Apple put it on its iMac. By not supporting it, HP is preventing customers from future options when Thunderbolt becomes popular.

By the time Intel supports it in the chipset HP will have changed their tune.
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post #56 of 130
Honestly? You put a just released technology along with Firewire and the Cube? Further, Firewire is still around. It is used by many folks, including myself. It is one of the cool Mac features I use to sell people on Macs. People are impressed by the whole target disk mode capacity, which can't be replicated with USB. Further, it is very useful for trouble shooting purposes to be able to treat a Mac as a second hard drive to another Mac. Firewire is also used on high end cameras and hardware where fast transfer speeds are important.


As far as no support goes, big companies like Canon, Nikon, and Seagate have all committed to shipping Thunderbolt able products (that is just a small sampling). When those products hit the market, HP customers just buying a new computer are going to feel sad that they can't use those products to their full advantage.

Why would Apple want to lock down its products with DRM to appease a limited amount of people who want to use Blue Ray on their Macs? The DRM effects OS performance even when Blue Rays aren't playing. No thanks. If I wanted Blue Ray, which I don't, I could buy a third party external drive. Problem solved.


USB may be on all computers, but that is for two reasons. First, Intel didn't want to pay Apple's penny a port license fee to use superior Firewire. Intel was frightened of Firewire because it is so far ahead of USB (still is), it actively tried to kill it. Second, some brave company took a risk on adding USB support to their computers when nobody else supported it. Yes, that company was Apple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins View Post

Much like Firewire, Thuderbolt, the Cube, etc.


What use is superior if there is nothing available for using that superiority?
At least HP has machines with BluRay tech. Where is that option for the fruit??


With no support outside the fruit and intel, it is. With no standard backing, it is.
History has a tendency to repeat.




Chicken and egg. More than 2/3 of the iOS userbase is on Windows PCs. There is less than 1% of Windows PCs released today with Thunderbolts. Everything is USB!
post #57 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm amazed so many are looking at Thunderbot like it's FireWire simply because it is supported by Apple. Don't forget that Apple was the first major vendor to go all in with USB and that seems to have been somewhat successful.

That's not quite what happened. However, the truth is somewhat more compelling. The iMac was the first Mac with USB. By the time that Apple put the iMac on the market, most PC OEMs featured USB, many with multiple USB ports. However, no PC OEM went with USB exclusively. USB was in addition to PS/2 for keyboards and mice, parallel ports for printers, and RS-232 ports for modems. As a result, most customers continued to use parallel printers and PS/2 keyboards and mice. Despite the fact that these PCs featured USB ports, many did not include the drivers to enable the ports. If you wanted to use a USB peripheral, then you had to down USB driver(s) from Microsoft. Did I say that USB was kind of flaky? Well, USB was kind of flaky.

Apple took a dramatically different approach. USB was not an additional port on the iMac and the Macs that followed. USB replaced the Apple Desktop Bus and RS-232 ports. If you wanted to print from your Mac, the it was USB, Ethernet, or FireWire. If you wanted to connect your keyboard, mouse, or modem, then it was USB exclusively. What is more, USB actually worked on the iMac. Apple overcame the flakiness that PC users experienced.

Before the iMac, USB was floundering. People debated USB and FireWire, but USB were little used. With the advent of the iMac, this changed. Peripheral manufacturers now had a certain market for their USB products. More USB products came to market. Customers understood that with Apple's support, USB would be around for a while. They were more comfortable in replacing RS-232, PS/2, and parallel port devices with USB devices.
post #58 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins View Post

Much like Firewire, Thuderbolt, the Cube, etc.


What use is superior if there is nothing available for using that superiority?
At least HP has machines with BluRay tech. Where is that option for the fruit??


With no support outside the fruit and intel, it is. With no standard backing, it is.
History has a tendency to repeat.


Chicken and egg. More than 2/3 of the iOS userbase is on Windows PCs. There is less than 1% of Windows PCs released today with Thunderbolt port. Nobody will buy add-on cards for Thunderbolt ports. Thuderbolt is just useless!! Everything is USB! USB works FINE!!

Seriously, Bluray? USB is good enough?

Do you just love moving copious amounts of data with slow, archaic methods? Why store data in discs which are pricey, use physical space, can get lost/scratched, deteriorate over time, are harder to duplicate and will obviously become obsolete? Most of us store our data on huge external hard drives, where daisy chaining is highly preferable and high throughput is incredibly valuable (read, thunderbolt way more useful than USB)
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post #59 of 130
the last great (sarcastic) hp decision was to turn back their license to sell apple ipods after they made a deal with hp.

those hpods that were sold must be collectors items now.
post #60 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Not necessarily for speed, but for removing USB from laptops altogether and sticking with one port style. I guess Apple will also have to convert their mice and keyboards too \

Convert them to what? They are already bluetooth, and it's not as if USB will be going away. AFAIK, Apple didn't pull USB ports off of their computers, they are just adding a complementary port that is much better suited for high transfer rates. USB is still plenty good enough and already widely supported for devices like keyboards, mice, printers, etc.
post #61 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post

I really hope it's not another FireWire.

My guess is that one of the key differences this time is Apple have the critical mass to get Thunderbolt going.

Firewire was onto a hiding to nothing when it came out with only really Apple supporting it, because Apples market share at the time was as good as zero.

Now however, with approaching 10% of the US market, there is enough people with Macs to justify the peripheral manufacturers putting the effort in.

I think both will survive side by side.
post #62 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post

the last great (sarcastic) hp decision was to turn back their license to sell apple ipods after they made a deal with hp.

those hpods that were sold must be collectors items now.

Holy crap, I forgot all about those! What was Apple thinking?!
post #63 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't see why they'd do that. Do you have a supporting argument as to why you think they'd go that route?

Note that despite their support for FireWire they still use USB for many parts of the Mac. For instance, BlueTooth, IR Reciever, notebook keyboard and trackpad, SD card reader, and iSight camera are all off the USB bus.

As long as Apple continues support for USB, hardware manufacturers will avoid adding a second port to their devices and increase their cost.

I believe Apple adopted a port such as the Thunderbold to reduce the number of ports in their future laptops. i.e. one port format for communication and video. Something neither USB nor Firewire can do. Less silicone, less heat, helps battery life.

I believe the new MacBook Air will ship with only one port, Thunderbolt.
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post #64 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

Convert them to what? They are already bluetooth, and it's not as if USB will be going away. AFAIK, Apple didn't pull USB ports off of their computers, they are just adding a complementary port that is much better suited for high transfer rates. USB is still plenty good enough and already widely supported for devices like keyboards, mice, printers, etc.

Apple didn't pull USB from their computers yet. But they're the kind of company that may very well do if they want to push it through the market.
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post #65 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

As long as Apple continues support for USB, hardware manufacturers will avoid adding a second port to their devices and increase their cost.

I believe Apple adopted a port such as the Thunderbold to reduce the number of ports in their future laptops. i.e. one port format for communication and video. Something neither USB nor Firewire can do. Less silicone, less heat, helps battery life.

I believe the new MacBook Air will ship with only one port, Thunderbolt.

I think youre wrong. Remember the PCI channel offers DisplayPort which is already in use by many major companies. Im sure Dell has moved from the DP port to mDP port but that will reduce the size, allow for access to Ivy Bridges Thunderbolt, and the mDP port is FREE. Again, Thunderbolt isnt going to replace USB, just as HDMI didnt replace USB. These port interfaces can live happily next to each other.
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post #66 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post

I really hope it's not another FireWire.

Whys that then? All 3 of my PC's and every one of my laptops (5 in total), including a netbook all have firewire ports on them.

I have 2 sony digital video cameras which have firewire on them too.
post #67 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Apple didn't pull USB from their computers yet. But they're the kind of company that may very well do if they want to push it through the market.

I could see them doing that, but they would need to supply or offer a TB-to-USB hub. USB isn't going away, even though the benefits of Thunderbolt or extraordinary. Currently, there are 2-5 USB ports, 1-2 Firewire ports, a display out (now TB), audio in/out, ethernet... now imagine only putting 1 (or 2 on an iMac or 17" Pro perhaps) Thunderbolt port in place of all of that, with one external adapter for all of those ports. Probably more feasible with a desktop unit that you're not carrying around all the time, but the possibilities are pretty mind-blowing.
post #68 of 130
If Thunderbolt is twice as fast as USB 3.0 why is he in favor of the later.
Why not adopt and support both instead of dismissing one? Isn't that how they miss opportunities?
post #69 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

375MBps is nothing to scoff at.

You're right, 375 MBps is extrememly impressive. Now look at Thunderbolt. 10Gbps = 1.25GBps (yes, gigabytes). That could handle 3 USB3.0 devices running at full theoretical speed at the same time and still leave room to run an external display or whatever else you want while all that other stuff is going.
post #70 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Whys that then? All 3 of my PC's and every one of my laptops (5 in total), including a netbook all have firewire ports on them.

I have 2 sony digital video cameras which have firewire on them too.

Exactly!
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post #71 of 130
Apple made a huge mistake by not embracing USB 3.0 from day one. No one else supports Thundercrap. Yet another proprietary standard that will bite Apple in the ass one day.
post #72 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkalu View Post

If Thunderbolt is twice as fast as USB 3.0 why is he in favor of the later.
Why not adopt and support both instead of dismissing one? Isn't that how they miss opportunities?

I think its twice as fast in each direction for a total of 4x the possible bandwidth at any one time. I think it also offers lower latency and overhead.

In the coming months well see some real world tests.

Another factor is drivers, and with Apple and Intel in one corner and HP and MS in the other even if they specs were identical in performance Id be putting my money on the former.
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post #73 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

Apple made a huge mistake by not embracing USB 3.0 from day one. No one else supports Thundercrap. Yet another proprietary standard that will bite Apple in the ass one day.

USB3.0 is an open standard whilst Thunderbolt is proprietary? Good one¡
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post #74 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

How I hate inkjet printers, their problems are specialized paper, clogged heads, constant head cleansing, calibration, and the list goes on. I'll take a laser over an inkjet any day.

Indeed. I have a brother laser printer I've been using on the same toner cartridge for 20 years - and I think I print quite a lot. It's the most reliable and easy to use printer I've ever seen and, thanks to my Time Capsule, is now wifi-enabled.

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post #75 of 130
What worries me as a consumer is that Apple will quite happily watch everyone buy new equipment to work with Thunderbolt, then drop Thunderbolt for something else, without any regard for taking those customers with them.

They need to start thinking of their customers as an installed base, almost like their own employees, and factor in a migration path with the same attention to detail as they have done for the moves from 32 bit to 64 bit, which I gather was complex for Apple but fairly seamless for most people,

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post #76 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

How I hate inkjet printers, their problems are specialized paper, clogged heads, constant head cleansing, calibration, and the list goes on. I'll take a laser over an inkjet any day.

Sounds like you had an Epson inkjet.
post #77 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

You're right, 375 MBps is extrememly impressive. Now look at Thunderbolt. 10Gbps = 1.25GBps (yes, gigabytes). That could handle 3 USB3.0 devices running at full theoretical speed at the same time and still leave room to run an external display or whatever else you want while all that other stuff is going.

I seem to remember that Thunderbolt can handle 4 threads at a time at that speed (2 up and 2 down).
post #78 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

Same thing happened when Apple introduced Firewire 400, then 800. No PC company wanted to support it. But then people started buying things like iPods and portable hard-drives and those companies didn't have a choice. Apple just needs to push this technology further and show the real value from having such speeds, HP will run back on broken legs.

So I guess that's why iPods, iPhones and iPads all use firewire today. Oh, wait...
post #79 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think youre wrong. Remember the PCI channel offers DisplayPort which is already in use by many major companies. Im sure Dell has moved from the DP port to mDP port but that will reduce the size, allow for access to Ivy Bridges Thunderbolt, and the mDP port is FREE. Again, Thunderbolt isnt going to replace USB, just as HDMI didnt replace USB. These port interfaces can live happily next to each other.

One challenge Apple might face in eliminating USB in the short-term is their iProducts, but I'm sure TB will accept USB communication using a simple adapter or an alternative cable.
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post #80 of 130
Thundercrap will die a slow and painful death when people realize that the choice of peripherals for it is severely limited. USB 3.0 will win, because it's backwards compatible with all of their other USB peripherals. Even their mice. It won't matter that USB 3.0 can "only" run at 5Mbps vs. Thundercrap's 10Mbps. People will want choice and compatibility much more than the extra speed.
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