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HP exec dismisses Apple and Intel's Thunderbolt in favor of USB 3.0 - Page 3

post #81 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

USB3.0 is an open standard whilst Thunderbolt is proprietary? Good one¡

Yes, it is, thank you.

USB 3.0 was developed by the The USB 3.0 Promoter Group, an industry consortium, as an open standard. Thundercrap is a proprietary protocol developed by Intel. Intel also deliberately delayed supporting USB 3.0 until this year in an attempt to sabotage it's adoption by PC manufacturers in the hope that they'd go with Thundercrap instead. It didn't quite pan out like they planned. Thundercrap is doomed.
post #82 of 130
There's an interesting article on Engadget, already showing a Sony laptop with Thunderbolt.


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Originally Posted by elroth View Post

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post #83 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMoan View Post


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You can't tell me USB is done for. It's everywhere. (Much like Flash.) Apple can't really expect everyone to toss out every camera, printer, hard drive, iPod in favor of this lightning bolt stuff.

---

Apple has a tendency to want to live in the future. But me, my computer, and all its peripherals live in the present.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #84 of 130
Good for HP! Leading the way tomorrow with yesterday's technology......LOL I guess that's why the only HP device I've got is a printer. They do make pretty good printers. Although I rarely bother printing anything.
post #85 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

Apple has a tendency to want to live in the future. But me, my computer, and all its peripherals live in the present.

You're probably mourning the loss of the floppy drive...
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post #86 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMoan View Post

That's really not fair to say. No devices use floppy's anymore. There are tons of USB devices.

What really surprises me is that Apple didn't eliminate USB from their products entirely and declare it a dead technology. Like Flash, dvd, blu ray, express cards, etc

You need a computer history lesson...
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post #87 of 130
I'm embracing ThunderBolt with open arms. Speed performance, data, video, audio, and power?? In a single port? No brainer for me.

Backup my entire system in minutes? Check!
post #88 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Ah, yes... HP... the company that just gave a dismal forecast and is now down 8%.

The company of brilliant decisions...

Meanwhile... AAPL is up .25%

They recently bought Vertica which was a pretty smart decision. Not in the consumer space, but still a nice move for them.
post #89 of 130
USB 3 supports 127 devices. Thunderbolt support only 6 in daisy chain mode, but is also said to support hubs.

Does anybody know what is the numerical limit for devices on Thunderbolt?
And when the optical version is scheduled to debut?
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post #90 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

You're right, 375 MBps is extrememly impressive. Now look at Thunderbolt. 10Gbps = 1.25GBps (yes, gigabytes). That could handle 3 USB3.0 devices running at full theoretical speed at the same time and still leave room to run an external display or whatever else you want while all that other stuff is going.

There has to be a device outside of a Apple Cinema display to use it with though. Even if no USB 3.0 devices existed I'd still have a billion and 1 devices to connect to the ports.

Let me be clear though. As long as an affordable external HDD case can be had for Thunderbolt I will have no problems buying them. I don't care if the tech never matures if I can take advantage of the bus speed for data transfer.

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post #91 of 130
I think this portends a trend we may be seeing for quite some time, as competitors to Apple decide not to (or cannot) stay abreast.

(Ex: We've examined the [pick one - "thinness," "retina vision screen," "A7 processor," etc.) of the (pick one - "iPad 3," iMac, Gen X ipod, etc.) and we've decided it's not [pick one - "cost effective," "value propositioned," etc.) for us at this time. Of course, we may still adopt this feature in the future if it starts to make sense for us.

"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood ... and Apple took the one less trodden. And that has made all the difference."
post #92 of 130
This is the kind of thing that will kill Light Peak.

Sony's Thunderbolt implementation hiding in plain (web)site, uses USB connector not Mini DisplayPort?

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/17/s...site-uses-usb/

OEM's haven't even settled on an interface for the tech. How are vendor's suppose to produce products for the interface?

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post #93 of 130
If they use a corporate bunk phrase like, "value proposition," they're lying. What they mean is, we'd have to spend some engineering bucks, and we already bet on the wrong horse.
post #94 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

This is the kind of thing that will kill Light Peak.

Sony's Thunderbolt implementation hiding in plain (web)site, uses USB connector not Mini DisplayPort?

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/17/s...site-uses-usb/

OEM's haven't even settled on an interface for the tech. How are vendor's suppose to produce products for the interface?

I saw that, too, but I thought companies weren't allowed to use the USB interface for other, competing interfaces and technologies. In other words, it has to be a USB port, not a thunderbolt port. How confusing would it be to have a thumb drive, plug it in to that thunderbolt port, and then wonder why nothing is happening?
post #95 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macintosh_Next View Post

The thing is, if not many companies are using [Thunderbolt] -- not just PC's but companies that make HD Recorders and external hard drives don't support it, then why should a company like HP support it?

It's a bit premature to say whether or not someone supports a brand new interface that was released only a couple of months ago.

Give them a little time to get products developed and tested, not to mention released.
post #96 of 130
I really do think it's interesting to see whether new tech gets picked up by manufacturers, but the part of this story that stopped me in my tracks is the name HP has gone with: the Pavilion HPE H8 series.

Really? You put the word "hate" into your product name??
post #97 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

The race is on.

PC makers will choose between adding Thunderbolt because it is good technology, or ignoring it to make Macs, yet again, the odd machine out and less compatible with most of the new stuff.

This would be a slightly more credible strategy were it not for the fact that TB allows for support of multiple other types of interfaces through relatively simple adapters.

Not very effect lock out.
post #98 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

You're probably mourning the loss of the floppy drive...

The thing is that Apple have accelerated the lifetime of standards to the point where you can buy three apple products in three years and none of them can connect to eachother without adapters and none of them connect to anything in your home either.

I'm all in favor of better technology, as long as I can see that the need to transition a multi-million customer installed base has been factored in.

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post #99 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

This would be a slightly more credible strategy were it not for the fact that TB allows for support of multiple other types of interfaces through relatively simple adapters.

Not very effect lock out.

Indeed, but most of the world are not signed-up members of the internet pants brigade and therefore don't walk around sprouting adapters from their pockets.

The thing about standards is adhoc interoperability that supports what you've just decided to do, as opposed to something that *can* be done with enough technical preparation.

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post #100 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

The thing is that Apple have accelerated the lifetime of standards to the point where you can buy three apple products in three years and none of them can connect to eachother without adapters and none of them connect to anything in your home either.

I'm all in favor of better technology, as long as I can see that the need to transition a multi-million customer installed base has been factored in.

Are you daft?! Apple first introduced usb in 1998 on the iMac... okay, that's 13 years... and counting...

You'll have to explain a little further about wtf you are talking about... what products? which products do they not hook up to? what in your home do you want connected?

Installed base??... like when Apple dropped the 3.25, scsi and adb port all in one go and everyone cried that Apple was doomed... sound familiar?!
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post #101 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffrobinson View Post

They recently bought Vertica which was a pretty smart decision. Not in the consumer space, but still a nice move for them.

HP replaced Neoview with Vertica... but did HP really understand/know why Neoview failed? (... or maybe HP just Hurd it wasn't working out for them and dropped Neoview)

Too early to tell if HP is in over their heads with Vertica. The deal just closed less than a month ago.
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post #102 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMoan View Post

It is. Unless they put this thing on an iPad or an iPhone no one is going to adopt it. iOs is the only place Apple rules the marketplace. As far as firewire is concerned, even Apple themselves stopped putting firewire on their laptops for a time.

What ticks me off here is that Apple didn't include flash on iOS because, according to Jobs, they have a finite amount of resources and personnel and they want to focus attention on emerging technologies that have a future.

You can't tell me USB is done for. It's everywhere. (Much like Flash.) Apple can't really expect everyone to toss out every camera, printer, hard drive, iPod in favor of this lightning bolt stuff.

Even if it's wayyy better than USB, it's not compelling enough of a feature to make people run out and buy a new computer.

So in the end, Thundercat is going to be a waste of time and resources.

OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! How much BS talk do we have to endure from you? Did you ever read anyting anywhere? Or are you ignorant beyond repair?
post #103 of 130
Essentially i have a brand new Macbook Pro without thunder-whatever.

So my choices are FW800 or USB 2.0. Not being nerdy enough to pay $75 for a FW800 enclosure, my main storage bus is USB 2.

Almost everyone who uses Mac will be using USB 2.0, not Thunderrelevant or whatever.

USB is what is important for real users. Apple would do well not to fall behind in that.
post #104 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Support for both Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 will appear in Intel's next-generation processors, code-named "Ivy Bridge." Those chips, which will arrive in 2012, are the successor to the "Sandy Bride" processors that began shipping earlier this year.

"Sandy Bride?"

Too many Don Rickles comments come to mind...
post #105 of 130
Wow. What a bunch of gullible people.

Read HP's press release carefully. They didn't say they wouldn't use Thunderbolt. In fact, they specifically stated that they might use it in the future.

Now, remember Intel/Apple's announcement of Thunderbolt. Apple had a full year head start because of their participation in the development of Thunderbolt.

So, let's translate HP's statements:
"We are still a long way from having Thunderbolt ready, so we couldn't offer it today even if we wanted to. Rather than taking a hit on sales, we'll spread some FUD and say that we're not using it".

It's that simple. HP will be using Thunderbolt in a year.
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post #106 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


It's that simple. HP will be using Thunderbolt in a year.

I agree... Apple will introduce something new that will require TB and then, like the iPad, the other companies will fall all over themselves trying to follow Apple's lead as quickly as possible because usb 3 just won't cut it.
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post #107 of 130
I'm guessing that video is one of the main uses of Thunderbolt, yet all of the high quality cameras are using Compact Flash for storage. Plus there are a few billion USB Flash drives out there. We are probably going to see Thunderbolt card readers pretty quickly along with USB converters. I'm not an expert but I would assume that the SD card reader in the MBP is USB as well, not to mention the millions of iPhones and iPads that rely on it. So I don't see USB going away anytime soon.

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post #108 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

"Sandy Bride?"

Too many Don Rickles comments come to mind...


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post #109 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Wow. What a bunch of gullible people.

Read HP's press release carefully. They didn't say they wouldn't use Thunderbolt. In fact, they specifically stated that they might use it in the future.

Now, remember Intel/Apple's announcement of Thunderbolt. Apple had a full year head start because of their participation in the development of Thunderbolt.

So, let's translate HP's statements:
"We are still a long way from having Thunderbolt ready, so we couldn't offer it today even if we wanted to. Rather than taking a hit on sales, we'll spread some FUD and say that we're not using it".

It's that simple. HP will be using Thunderbolt in a year.

Once upon a time, Steve Wozniak came before HP execs with the Apple I and offered it to them to sell, because they had first rights to anything he invented while in their employ. The HP execs had no interest in personal computers because there was no market for these things in 1976. The rest is history.

The lesson? Companies like HP have 20/20 hindsight. Companies like Apple have 20/20 foresight.

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post #110 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

The race is on.

PC makers will choose between adding Thunderbolt because it is good technology, or ignoring it to make Macs, yet again, the odd machine out and less compatible with most of the new stuff. HP have made their choice and, I suspect, are publically inviting the others to join in - after all, why gloat over a missing feature.

Superior technology may have little to do with success.

Intel has said from day one that Apple will basically have a 1 year exclusive window on Thunderbolt due to product design cycles. I'd be surprised to see HP or most manufacturers officially say that Thunderbolt was great when they won't have it for almost a year. That would be admitting that Apple already has tomorrow's solution shipping today.

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post #111 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I agree... Apple will introduce something new that will require TB and then, like the iPad, the other companies will fall all over themselves trying to follow Apple's lead as quickly as possible because usb 3 just won't cut it.

There isn't much that Thunderbolt offers that USB 3.0 doesn't. There's enough throughput for high-speed storage devices and video displays (ala DisplayLink). There are some technical advantages to Thunderbolt, but there are ZERO devices on the market right now to take advantage of it, whereas there are millions of USB devices out there, thousands of which already take advantage of USB 3.0.

Let's also remember that Thunderbolt is an Intel-exclusive I/O port. If you wanted to build an AMD system with a Thunderbolt port, well, sorry, you can't.

HP will continue to watch the market, and if Thunderbolt has a future that goes beyond a niche, I'm sure they'll consider adopting it. For now, why on earth is anyone defending a port that only has theoretical capabilities and no accessories available to use it? Its too early to bother with it.
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post #112 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

Thundercrap will die a slow and painful death when people realize that the choice of peripherals for it is severely limited. USB 3.0 will win, because it's backwards compatible with all of their other USB peripherals. Even their mice. It won't matter that USB 3.0 can "only" run at 5Mbps vs. Thundercrap's 10Mbps. People will want choice and compatibility much more than the extra speed.

Geez dude, angry much? As I see it, there's no "competition" between USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt. In fact, as the article suggests, they "compliment" each other:
Thunderbolt: Hi USB 3.0! It's so cool that you're new and improved, and yet backwards compatible with older peripherals, without the need for any adapters!
USB 3.0: Why thank you, Thunderbolt, for that fine compliment! And I congratulate you on your awesome bandwidth, your support for multiple protocols and your daisy chain capability!
Thunderbolt: Hey, you know, while it's cool that we're friendly enough to compliment each other, there's no reason we can't complement each other as well!
USB 3.0: What? Oh, I get it! HAHAHAHA!!!
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post #113 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

1) It is a brand new port with questionable support and adoption

Every I/O technology was brand new at some point in history.

Quote:
2) The implantation by Apple will probably not be the final or standardized form of Lightpeak. LightPeak was originally (and still is) designed to operate over fiber optic. Thunderbolt operates over copper (electrical) and Intel is planning on making the switch to optical later this year. What this means for the early adopters of the electrical version, I don't know. It may be a simple as buying an optical-electrical adapter, it may not.

My guess is that Thunderbolt/LightPeak will scale up over time, but the physical interface will remain more or less intact--much like USB. One or more of the copper wires will be replaced by optical fiber once that goes into production, but because the physical interface would remain the same, users of "older" Thunderbolt-based peripherals will not be left in the cold--and probably won't even need an adapter. But I'm an optimist.

Quote:
3) Theres the licensing issue. As mentioned above, you can't get an AMD system with LightPeak (at least not currently). For Apple, who uses Intel exclusively, this isn't an issue. For companies that make use of both Intel and AMD chips, this can get complex. And based on the hype surrounding BD and Llano, we might be seeing a lot more OEM AMD systems soon.

As I understand it, Thunderbolt is driven by a controller chip, not the CPU, so why can't an Intel controller chip live on an AMD CPU motherboard? (I'm asking honestly, because I don't know.)
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post #114 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuristic View Post


As I understand it, Thunderbolt is driven by a controller chip, not the CPU, so why can't an Intel controller chip live on an AMD CPU motherboard? (I'm asking honestly, because I don't know.)

Every device employing TB must be capable of exerting the same control functions over the link. A separate controller chip is used, either a single channel version for low-power devices or the full-power dual channel, 40 Gbps (theoretical max) chip apparently. Intel apparently intends to release a developer kit in June or July.

Thunderbolt will permit the kinds of capability that Firewire provides but more so. For example, high-definition video cameras (1080p) could share their screens with the Mac (or later, the iPad ) and because of the fully peer-to-peer authority provided, allow interactive commanding from either end etc. with no latency issues.

All the best.
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post #115 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

Sounds like you had an Epson inkjet.

That's what I was going to say, I've never had to do any of what he claims with my Canon, but the Epson needs constant work to get it to print
post #116 of 130
Funny how the 1394TA is JUST NOW trumpeting "Breakthrough to 1.6 Gigabit/second Speeds", of course Apple is MIA on the faster standard they developed on new Macs:

http://www.1394ta.org/press/Newslett...l11/page2.html



But when will FireWire's goal of 3.2Gigabit/second capabilities be achieved, and will it be far too late?!
post #117 of 130
HP builds disposable computers built to last the warranty period (1 year) then die. Right now there are no Thunderbolt peripherals. HP doesn't care what's going to be available 1 year from now, because they're looking at the next quarter, not next year. Next year they'll have an entirely new line of computers that'll have Thunderbolt if there are peripherals for it that people want, or won't have Thunderbolt if there aren't. But right now there aren't Thunderbolt peripherals, so they don't care about Thunderbolt. That's just how HP works -- they're followers, not leaders.

Same reason is you'll be lucky to get an hour and a half from an HP laptop battery on their 17" laptops -- the reality is that most 17" laptops today are bought as desktop replacements, so they give their customers what they currently want -- a cheap 17" desktop replacement laptop. Getting out in front and leading customers into new territories is *not* HP's style, and never has been ever since Hewlett and Packard retired and left the company to "professional" managers, who are followers who rise to the top by licking the right boots, not leaders.
post #118 of 130
Everyone seems to be ignoring the most important issue when it comes to mass market tech: COST

The host/guest nature of USB wins when you are looking to use the same technology for both expensive/high-speed devices like external RAID enclosures AND cheap/slow devices like mice and thumb-drives.

With USB the more expensive host controller in the computer does the heavy lifting for a cheaper guest controller in the connected device. USB3 is fast enough for most uses and the guest devices are cheaper to build.

FireWire & Thunderbolt are both peer-2-peer which may get you more speed and the ability to chain devices, but they both require more complex and expensive chips than those used for the USB guests.

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post #119 of 130
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post #120 of 130
It is quite possible that Thunderbolt might become an apple only thing and while superior might not win over the general retail market. There are already quite a few USB3.0 devices on the market....

If Intel really pushes it, it might have a chance to win over the non-apple retail accessory market...

I think it is a 50/50 chance at this time....
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