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You want less regulation? - Page 3

post #81 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I'm being forced at the barrel of a gun to pay for things I don't want and have never been given the opportunity to opt in or out.

No restaurant does that.

You're forced to pay for the overhead costs of the restaurant which include cleaning of the toilet, even though you've never used the toilet at the restaurant.

You may even strongly believe, having strong bowels yourself, that the restaurant doesn't NEED a toilet, and you'd like to save on those costs.

You can always go to another restaurant that doesn't have a toilet. What's that? All the restaurants except the filthiest shitholes have toilets? Hmm... perhaps there's a reason.
post #82 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bullshit. You're not being forced to make a living in the United States just like you're not being forced to eat at the restaurant. You can go somewhere else. Seriously.

Indeed. Jazzy loves to up the rhetoric by repeatedly using the "barrel of a gun" mantra, but doesn't actually invalidate your point here in the least. It's almost as if he has a set of talking points and will fall back on them regardless of their applicability or relationship to reality.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #83 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You're forced to pay for the overhead costs of the restaurant which include cleaning of the toilet, even though you've never used the toilet at the restaurant.

You're losing this argument, tonton.

There is absolutely no force involved in your scenario. It's a voluntary transaction between two willing parties. They give me food, I give them money in exchange for the food.

What they do with the money I paid for the food is their business, not mine.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #84 of 115
Nah, looks like he's winning this argument. You can't arbitrarily decide he's losing because you want him to. Stop closing your eyes and screaming NAH NAH NAH GUN NAH NAH NAH THEFT NAH NAH NAH for a moment to actually think about what he is saying.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #85 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If we want to go to the cinema these days, we're forced to watch shitty movies with gunfights, explosions and car chases every thirty seconds, because there are no longer any other kinds of movies in the market!

There are many choices at the cinema, but yes, they are mostly regurgitated copies of what has already been put out before.

Quote:
But on a serious note, if not for government intervention, we would be forced to use Windows right now. You can't tell me that the Microsoft near monopoly was DUE TO the government, as that was a lie before, and it would be a lie now.

In fact, quite honestly, many of us are forced to use Windows at work now.

May people are forced to use windows by their job, but the trend is changing to where you can use any machines that can remote in. I am able to remote in to work using my iPad and do my work. I can also use my Mac Laptop and my iMac as well. This is due to market forces where the users want to be able to use what they want to use. Also they are not forced to do so at home.

Quote:
By the way, the government only FORCES you to pay taxes the way a restaurant FORCES you to pay for the food you just ate. You don't want to pay for that food from that restaurant? Fine, go to another restaurant before you eat their food. You don't want to pay taxes in the United States? Fine. Go to another country before you earn a living in the United States. No one is FORCING you to earn a living here, just like no one is FORCING you to go to a particular restaurant.

I don't agree with this. It is not the same situation. Your milk example was more what I was looking for. But there are more places to get things from, even in the face of conglomerates.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #86 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

There is absolutely no force involved in your scenario. It's a voluntary transaction between two willing parties. They give me food, I give them money in exchange for the food.

Is food all you get from the transaction?
post #87 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Is food all you get from the transaction?

Do prices vary depending on my income?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #88 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I don't agree with this. It is not the same situation. Your milk example was more what I was looking for. But there are more places to get things from, even in the face of conglomerates.

You choose to live and to make a living in the United States. By doing so, you accept that you need to pay your share of the administrative costs of the United States, even for those services you don't use or don't even approve of. If you don't like it, you can find another place to reside in and earn your living. You're not being forced at gunpoint to live and work in the United States. That would be North Korea.
post #89 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You choose to live and to make a living in the United States. By doing so, you accept that you need to pay your share of the administrative costs of the United States, even for those services you don't use or don't even approve of. If you don't like it, you can find another place to reside in and earn your living. You're not being forced at gunpoint to live and work in the United States. That would be North Korea.

Do you know how difficult and costly it is to renounce U.S. citizenship?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #90 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Do prices vary depending on my income?

If by that you mean do the rich have a way of paying less for their meal through loopholes in the system that are available only to them, then... no.
post #91 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you say so.

Typical MJ response. \ Should I have expected anything else?

Well I'd try to explain why but...a) I have before, b) you don't appear to understand...so what's the point?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Under a free market system, the farming megaconglomerate has bought all the smaller dairies. They have hired a company to do their testing. We don't know how much of that company they own, because there are no investment transparency regulations. A local university has tested their product independently, and found it to contain a substantial amount of melamine. The 'testing company' denies these new findings. The university suddenly reverses their findings a month later, and said their results were in error. I'd like to buy another brand of milk, but all milk products on the market are from the same company. I don't have space in my backyard for a cow.

Are you inviting people to come play in your imaginary dystopian fantasy world again?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #92 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well I'd try to explain why but...a) I have before, b) you don't appear to understand...so what's the point?




Are you inviting people to come play in your imaginary dystopian fantasy world again?

Trust me, it's no mre imaginary than your utopian fantasy world where monopoly, lack of transparency, collusion and market manipulation don't affect consumer choices and prices.
post #93 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Do you know how difficult and costly it is to renounce U.S. citizenship?

It depends on how much you've gained through the system by the time you decide to leave. Have you got any destinations in mind?
post #94 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Trust me, it's no mre imaginary than your utopian fantasy world where monopoly, lack of transparency, collusion and market manipulation don't affect consumer choices and prices.

Ahhh serving up more more fallacy. It's always fun doing business with you tonton.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #95 of 115
Thread Starter 
That's not what you believe? I've asked several times, how would an unregulated free market deal with those very real problems? You haven't answered.
post #96 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's not what you believe? I've asked several times, how would an unregulated free market deal with those very real problems? You haven't answered.

You're seriously asking me to try and counter argue against your fallacies?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #97 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're seriously asking me to try and counter argue against your fallacies?

Let's take monopoly, for instance.

Do you believe that monopoly exists in the free market?

If you believe it exists, do you think it affects consumer prices and choices?

If you think it does, then how do we deal with those effects in the free market?
post #98 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let's take monopoly, for instance.

Do you believe that monopoly exists in the free market?

Nope.

EDIT: "The Question of Monopolies"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #99 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Nope.

For that matter, the free market does not exist.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #100 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

For that matter, the free market does not exist.

Which is really convenient, isn't it? Any abusive practices perpetrated by "free enterprise" can just be ignored and tossed aside since "the free market does not exist." Oh no, they won't act that way when they are TRULY free. Of course not. Just have faith. Things will be different. Better. I promise. Don't question it. Be a good little lamb. Follow me to the slaughterhouse.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #101 of 115
Because if it doesn't exist, it never can and never will, right?

Good thing Thomas Edison didn't think that way.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #102 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Because if it doesn't exist, it never can and never will, right?

Good thing Thomas Edison didn't think that way.

Because <ludicrous statement>, right?

Good thing <non sequitur>.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #103 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Because <ludicrous statement>, right?

Good thing <non sequitur>.

Fantastic rebuttal, BR.

One of your better ones.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #104 of 115
Don't confuse science with your political religion. It's abhorrent.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #105 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Don't confuse science with your political religion. It's abhorrent.

Another gem.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #106 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Nope.

Well then, I'd love for you to tell me your definition of 'free market', because all this time I took it to mean that businesses can trade freely without regulation or taxation. Under such a system, creating a monopoly is child's play for the strongest player in any given market. So cleary your definition of 'free market' isn't really free at all.
post #107 of 115
I am really looking forward to interstellar travel. This way, the stooges who crave big government can be left to suffer in their own idiocracies.
Cat: the other white meat
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post #108 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well then, I'd love for you to tell me your definition of 'free market', because all this time I took it to mean that businesses can trade freely without regulation or taxation.

Yeah...that's pretty much it. I would say that everyone (not just businesses) can trade freely. I'd say that you also need the preconditions of the rule of law and solid respect for and protection of property rights.


In the trade we call this a non sequitur:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Under such a system, creating a monopoly is child's play for the strongest player in any given market.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #109 of 115
Thread Starter 
OK, Lib guys... Since you haven't said a word (surprise, surprise) I've done some research, and apparently the Libs' answer to monopolies hinges on the elimination of any and all intellectual property law, and ignores things such as supply constraint, widespread collusion, and business startup costs.
post #110 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

OK, Lib guys... Since you haven't said a word (surprise, surprise) I've done some research, and apparently the Libs' answer to monopolies hinges on the elimination of any and all intellectual property law, and ignores things such as supply constraint, widespread collusion, and business startup costs.

Actually it doesn't.

While elimination of intellectual property would be something that would increase competition in some ways it is not a necessary precondition for preventing monopoly.

The reality is that any and all monopolies that have existed, have existed under the protection of the state.

You greatly overestimate the ability to actually achieve a monopoly ("child's play for the strongest player in any given market") and greatly underestimate the power of competition including free entry into markets as an antidote to monopoly.

It does not require elimination of intellectual property (though that might be even better.)

You also make a broad sweep about supply constraints and startup costs. These clearly affect different industries differently. For some startup costs would create a higher (but not impossible) barrier to entry. For others it is negligible...and there's the whole range in between.

I say this will all due respect: You truly would benefit by a more in-depth study of economics. It might open your eyes a bit more.

Some very approachable and relatively succinct, non-technical books would be:

Economic Fallacies by Frederic Bastiat

Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt

Both help provide a good starting point and help frame the thinking well. Bastiat in particular deals directly with a variety of economic fallacies that that are commonly held even today.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #111 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

OK, Lib guys... Since you haven't said a word (surprise, surprise) I've done some research, and apparently the Libs' answer to monopolies hinges on the elimination of any and all intellectual property law, and ignores things such as supply constraint, widespread collusion, and business startup costs.

Actually, there is some difference of opinion among libertarians with respect to intellectual property. But as a whole, I think most agree that the issue is secondary to physical property rights (though arguably the two are intertwined in some respects).

Monopolies would not exist if true competition were allowed.

Take your milk example.

I cannot buy milk fresh from the cow from Farmer Joe down the road due to FDA regulations that favor and protect the big dairy conglomerates.

Indeed, the Big Food lobby pumps millions of dollars into lobbying the federal government to continue meddling in the market, protect their interests and stifle competition.

Take the government out of the picture and the big dairy conglomerates actually have to compete with Farmer Joe down the road.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #112 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Take your milk example.

I cannot buy milk fresh from the cow from Farmer Joe down the road due to FDA regulations that favor and protect the big dairy conglomerates.

And let's not even talk about the government milk (et al) price supports that help keep milk more expensive for all of us...including the poor.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #113 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Because if it doesn't exist, it never can and never will, right?

Good thing Thomas Edison didn't think that way.

Edison's method was to throw as much as he could at the wall, and see what stuck there.
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"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work".
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #114 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Edison's method was to throw as much as he could at the wall, and see what stuck there.

Indeed. But for some reason libertarianism is doomed to fail before it has even been tried.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #115 of 115

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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