or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › As Apple stores celebrate 10 years, some employees look to unionize
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

As Apple stores celebrate 10 years, some employees look to unionize - Page 4

post #121 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

Of course not. I never said unions are ruining America. I'm saying they abuse their power. Business abusing power is why unions were originally created in the first place. Now we are seeing the other side of it. Apple stores are doing just fine without a union.

Unions abusing power? Really? Show me where they're being abusive? Union busting at a all time high in this country, and for what reason? For that holy profit margin.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #122 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Shoot if every company were like that there would be no need for unions.

We had 3 founding objectives:

1) to return a fair profit to our investors

2) to provide the best products and services to our customers

3) to have fun

We did pretty well in some good (and not so good) years -- 1978-1989 -- then sold our interest and retired.

Very rewarding!
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #123 of 179
Unions can be a bad thing. But in this case it is exactly what Apple retail needs. Employees continually perform VERY, let me repat, VERY well. Apple is a strict company and does not tolerate "sub-par" employees.

However, the employees put up with A LOT of crap and work very hard to sell for the company. Many employees have "million dollar" years, and guess what, they barely make in the low teens/ hour. It's ridiculous.

I can accurately say that Apple retail employees that are full time barely bring in 30k/year. For a company that is valued higher than any other tech company, its purely disgusting. Employees are coached to believe working there is a labor of love.

Basically its good for college students. But it is not somewhere to make a career anymore. All the employees that were there on DAY ONE are now managers or in other higher positions making a good middle class income.

The sad thing is that people are beating down the door to work at Apple so it doesn't matter if employees quit. A union is what they need to threaten a complete staff walkout. Then Apple might pay attention.
post #124 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Employers are not slave-owners, friend. There are labor laws, regulations, etc. If an employer isn't following the law, there are places to report them to. If you've been treated unfairly, feel free to sue.

There's opportunity abound. If you live in a small city and you're limited to what jobs are available, well, then move. Seriously, if you want to be a famous actor, come to Los Angeles. If you want to be an animator, go to Georgia. If you want to be a game developer, Seattle is calling you. *YOU* have to make the effort if you want a good living, not rely on some organization to decide that for you.

If you don't like your job, find a new one. Not qualified to find a better one? Go to school and get some training. Don't want to go through the effort and work hard? Deal with your situation, then, and stop complaining that your HIGH-DEMAND job forces you to work so hard when there are tons of applicants just waiting to replace you.

You act like all that is easy. Like anyone can just go to Hollywood and become an actor. How many millions have failed. Labor laws dont have to be broken in order to make a place of employment unbearable. Even then the burden of proof is on the employee. And ummm check the umemployment rate my friend, there are NOT opportunities abound, schooling isnt the answer. How many are going to graduate this or next month to a dismal job market?
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #125 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Steve Jobs should immediately fire any and all people who seek to unionize. If an employee is unhappy for whatever reason, then they are free to quit. Nobody forced them to take the job.

Unions are disgusting and they should be abolished and made illegal.

So much for America being a free country. What a joke. Freedom extends to all areas not just the bits that you like. So that includes allowing freedom to join a union. Workers in every other Western Country have the right to be in a union. So either let people have complete freedom of association or shut the F### up about freedom.
post #126 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

It wouldn't take a union of all retail employees everywhere. If Apple Store employees unionized they could shut down Apple's retail operations if they went on strike. That's plenty of leverage right there. And a successful strike would inspire employees at other retailers to unionize.

I don't agree. You may remember a grocery cashier strike a few years ago. Not one grocery store closed. They eventually settled but the point is that in order to unionize you need to be part of a larger membership and have specialized skills if you want your strike to be effective. Unions pay their members a minimum wage while they are on strike. A freshly minted union made up of exclusively Apple retail employees is going to be hard pressed to come up with the revenue to support them through an extended walk out. Furthermore the Apple employees have no skills and are easily replaced. What part of that scenario do you not understand?

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #127 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

You do realize that Honda sells more cars in the United States than in the rest of the world combined including Japan?

Perhaps you could explain this from Honda website for 2008, the year we have been discussing:

U.S. Sales: 1,428

Rest of World: 2,351

Source: http://world.honda.com/news/2009/c09...uction-Result/
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
Reply
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
Reply
post #128 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed View Post

If you work or have worked for Apple Retail, speak up. If not, stfu.
I worked Apple retail and I hope their employees unionize.
Have you ever seen how full those stores get? Do you know what contradictory BS we go through to keep our jobs? Do you know how little they are paid and how many hours they get?
Apple Retail is like high school: it's full of cliques. If you don't constantly improve your metrics, you get warnings. If you spend more than the allotted time with a client, you get warnings. If you don't sell MobileMe and Applecare, you get warnings. All that for typical retail wages with no commission or bonuses and almost zero opportunity to advance: Apple's policy is never to promote from within.

Turnover in Apple Retail employees is enough to show that there's a serious problem. And as for the facebook page and Twitter account, any Apple employee caught saying anything about the company online is fired without warning.

Hmmm. If the situation is that bad, and you recognize it's that bad....

THEN DON'T WORK THERE!

Because, if you continue to work there, fully aware of how bad the situation is, then YOU are deciding that the benefits of the job (such as monetary compensation) outweigh the negative aspects. YOU made that decision.

Alternatively, you could make the decision NOT to continue working there. If enough other people feel as you do, and also leave, then Apple may decide that they need to offer a better compensatory package to their employees. If, however, other people apply for a job, replace you in your vacated position, and agree to the terms of employment, you should realize that just because you consider Apple's compensation for your work unacceptable, others do not. Perhaps that means that you need to reexamine your own expectations.

This really isn't that difficult to understand.
post #129 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitzandbitez View Post

aGREED 100% FIRE THOSE BASTARDS and take away the FREE IPHONES and IPADS they got when these things came out and EVERY APPLE WORKER got one for FREE...

WTF???? I would LOVE TO WORK AT THE APPLE STORE ... friggin MORONS!!

I bet my yearly salary (although it wouldn't be much since i'm not working) that these are Micro$H!t ex-employees and self HATING ex-MS windoze users who lost their jobs and now are at the APPLE store .. go work at walmart

You seriously have no clue what you're talking about. I was an apple employee from 2006 until a few months ago and the only hardware that I ever got for free was an iPod shuffle in 2006 and a first gen iPhone back in 2007. At no time did Apple ever give employees a free iPad, hell we had to wait almost 7 months to get our standard 25% discount on the first gen iPad. At the time I left(April11th), we still had to pay full price for them like everyone else.

BTW, I left the company on good terms and I'm still good friends with all of my old managers and co-workers. So you can just drop that argument. I will say that in my almost 5 years with Apple my starting pay and raises never amounted to anything close to what they were paying new hires when I left. That is a big reason why I left. I had many years of good reviews which were followed by a 3% raise cap. There is something wrong when a part time 18 year old college student getting a full ride from mom & dad is making more than a 29 year old married man with a mortgage and family. They would constantly claim that they couldn't go above a 3% raise, but members of management would always seems to find a way to give multiple thousand dollar raises to their close friends that were salespeople. That and two of my store managers were notorious for going to casino's and having affairs with other married employees. There fellow gambling buddies were bumped to hourly rates nearly two and a half times what I made.. for the same job and half the time with the company.

It's the lack of control over upper management that pisses a lot of Apple employees off. They have the ability to give their favorites everything and if you're not there best friends too, you're screwed. There are no checks and balances within the upper retail management system.

As far as your comment goes... Work for the company for nearly half a decade and then you're allowed to talk shit about what employees complain about. Until then, you are just basing everything you say off of a pathetic love for a logo, a half dead CEO, some decent engineering, and a whole lot of marketing.
post #130 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I don't agree. You may remember a grocery cashier strike a few years ago. Not one grocery store closed. They eventually settled but the point is that in order to unionize you need to be part of a larger membership and have specialized skills if you want your strike to be effective. Unions pay their members a minimum wage while they are on strike. A freshly minted union made up of exclusively Apple retail employees is going to be hard pressed to come up with the revenue to support them through an extended walk out. Furthermore the Apple employees have no skills and are easily replaced. What part of that scenario do you not understand?

Agreed.

I'm guessing that's it's not difficult for Apple (remember? Apple? ...the most successful tech company in the world with gobs of brand identification throughout the world) to recruit new candidates to replace former, striking, union employees.
post #131 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzed View Post

If you work or have worked for Apple Retail, speak up. If not, stfu.
I worked Apple retail and I hope their employees unionize.
Have you ever seen how full those stores get? Do you know what contradictory BS we go through to keep our jobs? Do you know how little they are paid and how many hours they get?
Apple Retail is like high school: it's full of cliques. If you don't constantly improve your metrics, you get warnings. If you spend more than the allotted time with a client, you get warnings. If you don't sell MobileMe and Applecare, you get warnings. All that for typical retail wages with no commission or bonuses and almost zero opportunity to advance: Apple's policy is never to promote from within.

Turnover in Apple Retail employees is enough to show that there's a serious problem. And as for the facebook page and Twitter account, any Apple employee caught saying anything about the company online is fired without warning.

That is such bullshit. I know of several people who quickly climbed the ranks within the Apple Stores and were promoted to national manager positions.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #132 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by n1954679 View Post

So much for America being a free country. What a joke. Freedom extends to all areas not just the bits that you like. So that includes allowing freedom to join a union. Workers in every other Western Country have the right to be in a union. So either let people have complete freedom of association or shut the F### up about freedom.

Who said anything about freedom? No country in the entire world offers 100% freedom. The US isn't 100% free, I can't even play a simple game of poker online if I wanted to.

Laws are passed all of the time restricting the freedom of people. Ironically enough, some of those laws and restrictions are heavily supported by unions, such as universal healthcare. If that's the game that those radical thugs wish to play, then others can play the same game too, and I am for banning things that I don't like, and I don't like unions. I wish to see them gone.
post #133 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

No they're not, in many ways Unions provide a better product and service, while at the same time improves employee loyalty ( exception the U.S. auto industry ). A good example is the U.S. Walmart versus the Union German Walmart which offers the same products with much higher employee and customer satisfaction.

In the U.S. the labor union brought us the two day weekend.

I have no problem with voluntary unions, but unions that force you to join whether you want to or not are criminal enterprises, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and federal unions should definitely be illegal. Unions are supposed to serve employees to bargain and negotiate with employers for better working conditions and wages. There is no competition for the government, so the only purpose is to fleece taxpayers without the benefit of counter-balancing market forces.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #134 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

You act like all that is easy. Like anyone can just go to Hollywood and become an actor. How many millions have failed. Labor laws dont have to be broken in order to make a place of employment unbearable. Even then the burden of proof is on the employee. And ummm check the umemployment rate my friend, there are NOT opportunities abound, schooling isnt the answer. How many are going to graduate this or next month to a dismal job market?

I oversimplified for the sake of the point, dude. Not everyone who moves to Hollywood is going to be a star, obviously.

I'm not blind, nor am I privileged. Of course I'm aware of the unemployment rate. You know what I've done? Got myself more education. I'm not necessarily talking about college, rather any kind of education - trade schools, certification classes at extended campuses, things that can be done on evenings after work to spruce up my resume and increase my capabilities. I work to make myself more valuable, which is what one needs to do in a recession in order to keep a job. Yeah, unemployment is high, but people are getting hired for jobs every single day. Its not all doom and gloom.

And as I've said in the past, a "union" doesn't guarantee "better." I worked for one as a kid, and in my case the union worked AGAINST me. The supermarket I worked for had set aside such ridiculously high wages for legacy workers before the big strike in 2003 that they had barely any left to pay new hires like myself. That union worked very hard to protect itself and its legacy constituents, but did very little if anything to help me... besides taking a $500 "initiation fee" and a constant percentage of my paycheck every week. In some circles they call that "racketeering."

Laws are in place for a reason. Its not perfect, but then again nothing is. Unions aren't perfect either, and most of them (read: not all of them) are irrelevant nowadays. If I can agree that labor laws aren't perfect, certainly you must agree that unions aren't always the answer either.
Video editor, tech enthusiast, developer.

http://www.yuusharo.com
http://www.studioyuu.com
Reply
Video editor, tech enthusiast, developer.

http://www.yuusharo.com
http://www.studioyuu.com
Reply
post #135 of 179
All Apple has to do is sue them for using "Apple" in their non-existant union name.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #136 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by parksgm View Post

Agreed.

I'm guessing that's it's not difficult for Apple (remember? Apple? ...the most successful tech company in the world with gobs of brand identification throughout the world) to recruit new candidates to replace former, striking, union employees.

Another thing to consider is that most Apple stores are in malls which are private property so even if they did go on strike there would be few locations where the picketers could be directly in front of the Apple store.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #137 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by NealofThelake View Post

You seriously have no clue what you're talking about. I was an apple employee from 2006 until a few months ago and the only hardware that I ever got for free was an iPod shuffle in 2006 and a first gen iPhone back in 2007. At no time did Apple ever give employees a free iPad, hell we had to wait almost 7 months to get our standard 25% discount on the first gen iPad. At the time I left(April11th), we still had to pay full price for them like everyone else.

BTW, I left the company on good terms and I'm still good friends with all of my old managers and co-workers. So you can just drop that argument. I will say that in my almost 5 years with Apple my starting pay and raises never amounted to anything close to what they were paying new hires when I left. That is a big reason why I left. I had many years of good reviews which were followed by a 3% raise cap. There is something wrong when a part time 18 year old college student getting a full ride from mom & dad is making more than a 29 year old married man with a mortgage and family. They would constantly claim that they couldn't go above a 3% raise, but members of management would always seems to find a way to give multiple thousand dollar raises to their close friends that were salespeople. That and two of my store managers were notorious for going to casino's and having affairs with other married employees. There fellow gambling buddies were bumped to hourly rates nearly two and a half times what I made.. for the same job and half the time with the company.

It's the lack of control over upper management that pisses a lot of Apple employees off. They have the ability to give their favorites everything and if you're not there best friends too, you're screwed. There are no checks and balances within the upper retail management system.

As far as your comment goes... Work for the company for nearly half a decade and then you're allowed to talk shit about what employees complain about. Until then, you are just basing everything you say off of a pathetic love for a logo, a half dead CEO, some decent engineering, and a whole lot of marketing.

Chalk your time up to getting on the job experience. And regarding the "favoritism" charge... guess what, EVERYWHERE PEOPLE WORK IT'S THE SAME. Some people know how to make friends with their bosses better. So what? That's life.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #138 of 179
I really don't want to come off as anti-union because I am not, especially when it comes to skilled workers whether they be civil servants or specialized workers or less sophisticated laborers such as janitorial or sanitation workers. My previous comments are of the practical nature relating to how can they manage the logistics and where are the revenues going to come from.

I do want to share my own personal story about unions.

As many of the regulars here may know my career is in the medical business. When I first graduated from college my first job was in a hospital. Forgive the dated context but at that time hospitals were just beginning to deploy computers in their operating rooms which is where I worked. My position was to maintain and operate the computers and since I was the low man in seniority my shift was swing and graveyard on the weekends. Since it was a new field and there was no job description in the union for my job I was put into the nurse's union for lack of a better classification.

I saw many car accident victims in my work and I was passionate about doing the best job I could in serving the hospital, the surgeons and the patients.

A few years later the nurse's union decided to go on strike for better wages and I was required to join the picket line. I was very upset about it because I felt that if no one was there to run the computers during surgery, seriously injured victims may not receive the level of care they needed. I decided to not strike and I went to work anyway. Indeed there were several emergencies where I felt that I contributed to the success of critical treatments during that time.

After a few weeks the strike was over but because I did not honor the union picket line none of the nurses were allowed to speak to me. It eventually led me to resign and I moved into a medical field which was not unionized.

Bottom line is unions are fine but ethical and moral responsibility trumps politics and finance every time.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #139 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

I can accurately say that Apple retail employees that are full time barely bring in 30k/year. For a company that is valued higher than any other tech company, its purely disgusting.

Your post if so off-base at so many different levels and in such stunning ways that all one can say is.... disgusting.
post #140 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Your post if so off-base at so many different levels and in such stunning ways that all one can say is.... disgusting.

Then spend five minutes and type... Are afraid of your argument being challanged? But keep in mind your not everyone and your experience is unique, just like the op you responded to should have kept in mind.
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
Reply
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
Reply
post #141 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

Then spend five minutes and type... Are afraid of your argument being challanged? But keep in mind your not everyone and your experience is unique, just like the op you responded to should have kept in mind.

First of all, I am having a bit of a hard time understanding your post. But I get the gist. So I'll oblige. Perhaps you'll take five minutes and respond, point-by-point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

Unions can be a bad thing. But in this case it is exactly what Apple retail needs. Employees continually perform VERY, let me repat, VERY well. Apple is a strict company and does not tolerate "sub-par" employees.

This para makes no sense. 'Unions can be bad.' Why? 'But exactly what Apple needs'. Why? If employees 'perform well', why does Apple need unions? So that they can perform better? How can that be if unions can be 'bad'? 'Apple does not tolerate sub-par employees.' Should Apple do so? If yes, will if affect the company's performance? If no, what can or should a union do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post


However, the employees put up with A LOT of crap and work very hard to sell for the company.

Like what? Examples? Are they forced to? Can they walk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

Many employees have "million dollar" years, and guess what, they barely make in the low teens/ hour. It's ridiculous

Did Apple promise anyone commissions and the renege? Did Apple tell anyone that they could get paid more if they sold more and not keep that promise? For a basic retail job for a product that sells itself, what exactly is the skill that is required that says they should make more than low teens an hour? Are other retailers paying more? Otherwise, what is the basis for your sense of entitlement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

I can accurately say that Apple retail employees that are full time barely bring in 30k/year.

What's wrong with $30K/year? With ~9% unemployment and ~16% underemployment in this country, a lot of very skilled, hardworking people would love to be able to make that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

For a company that is valued higher than any other tech company, its purely disgusting.

Because the market places a high value on the business, employees should be paid more? Why not suppliers and managers too, then? Why not customers, via lower prices for Apple products?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

Basically its good for college students.

What's wrong with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

But it is not somewhere to make a career anymore

What's wrong with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

All the employees that were there on DAY ONE are now managers or in other higher positions making a good middle class income.

What's wrong with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

The sad thing is that people are beating down the door to work at Apple so it doesn't matter if employees quit.

Why is the fact that people are beating down the doors to work there a 'sad thing'? Could it have something do with the fact that it's a good place to work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

A union is what they need to threaten a complete staff walkout. Then Apple might pay attention.

Why would employees want to threaten a 'complete staff walkout'? And, if they do, yet people continue to 'beat down the doors' how is that going to help those who walk out? Apple 'pay attention'? To what?

Like I said, disgusting. And I should add, juvenile.
post #142 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

I oversimplified for the sake of the point, dude. Not everyone who moves to Hollywood is going to be a star, obviously.

I'm not blind, nor am I privileged. Of course I'm aware of the unemployment rate. You know what I've done? Got myself more education. I'm not necessarily talking about college, rather any kind of education - trade schools, certification classes at extended campuses, things that can be done on evenings after work to spruce up my resume and increase my capabilities. I work to make myself more valuable, which is what one needs to do in a recession in order to keep a job. Yeah, unemployment is high, but people are getting hired for jobs every single day. Its not all doom and gloom.

And as I've said in the past, a "union" doesn't guarantee "better." I worked for one as a kid, and in my case the union worked AGAINST me. The supermarket I worked for had set aside such ridiculously high wages for legacy workers before the big strike in 2003 that they had barely any left to pay new hires like myself. That union worked very hard to protect itself and its legacy constituents, but did very little if anything to help me... besides taking a $500 "initiation fee" and a constant percentage of my paycheck every week. In some circles they call that "racketeering."

Laws are in place for a reason. Its not perfect, but then again nothing is. Unions aren't perfect either, and most of them (read: not all of them) are irrelevant nowadays. If I can agree that labor laws aren't perfect, certainly you must agree that unions aren't always the answer either.

It sounds like you dont care for unions because you did not get yours. Hope that's not what you mean.
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
Reply
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
Reply
post #143 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Steve Jobs should immediately fire any and all people who seek to unionize. If an employee is unhappy for whatever reason, then they are free to quit. Nobody forced them to take the job.

Unions are disgusting and they should be abolished and made illegal.

But Apple abducted these people off the street, held a gun to head, and forced them to work for low wages or they'll never see Mr. Kitty again. It's hard labor...restocking shelves, talking to customers, demoing iLife 11, and scanning credit cards under well-lit and air conditioned spaces.

Hell, none of Foxconn's suicidal assembly line workers would trade their place with an Apple Store employee. No way. They'd rather be unemployed.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #144 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

My knowledge of history is vast. Unions may have had a place and a use in the past, but that time is long gone. Unions do more bad than good now, and there is no need for them. Unions are bad for business, bad for the economy and I will go as far as to say that the philosophy of Unions is anti-American. I can see Unions appealing to socialists, underachievers, slackers and other degenerates in society who are looking for a free ride and looking to game the system at the expense of others.

Your critics utterly condemn your first sentence. Is there a middle ground? Would you settle for half-vast?

I admit to being a Fanatical Moderate. I Disdain the Inane. Vyizderzominymororzizazizdenderizorziz?

Reply

I admit to being a Fanatical Moderate. I Disdain the Inane. Vyizderzominymororzizazizdenderizorziz?

Reply
post #145 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

First of all, I am having a bit of a hard time understanding your post. But I get the gist. So I'll oblige. Perhaps you'll take five minutes and respond, point-by-point.



This para makes no sense. 'Unions can be bad.' Why? 'But exactly what Apple needs'. Why? If employees 'perform well', why does Apple need unions? So that they can perform better? How can that be if unions can be 'bad'? 'Apple does not tolerate sub-par employees.' Should Apple do so? If yes, will if affect the company's performance? If no, what can or should a union do?



Like what? Examples? Are they forced to? Can they walk?



Did Apple promise anyone commissions and the renege? Did Apple tell anyone that they could get paid more if they sold more and not keep that promise? For a basic retail job for a product that sells itself, what exactly is the skill that is required that says they should make more than low teens an hour? Are other retailers paying more? Otherwise, what is the basis for your sense of entitlement?



What's wrong with $30K/year? With ~9% unemployment and ~16% underemployment in this country, a lot of very skilled, hardworking people would love to be able to make that.



Because the market places a high value on the business, employees should be paid more? Why not suppliers and managers too, then? Why not customers, via lower prices for Apple products?



What's wrong with that?



What's wrong with that?



What's wrong with that?



Why is the fact that people are beating down the doors to work there a 'sad thing'? Could it have something do with the fact that it's a good place to work?



Why would employees want to threaten a 'complete staff walkout'? And, if they do, yet people continue to 'beat down the doors' how is that going to help those who walk out? Apple 'pay attention'? To what?

Like I said, disgusting. And I should add, juvenile.



I happened to have worked there and saw right through a lot of went on. My position is not unique however since this story is now being spread through the internet. Others are feeling the exact same way. Apple employees are asked to do more and more and more for a company that continues to make record profits and have record amounts of traffic. All this while seeing little to no pay increase.

Apple prides itself with being a good company and making great products all while having the persona and attitude of being the best (they are with products).

Apple retail is only one thing. Maybe Apple corporate is different. No one is forcing employees to like or accept the way they are treated. Its just a shame thats all. A "first class" company should be giving its employees first class treatment.

READ THE ENTIRE ORIGINAL ARTICLE! All of it is true. The lack of hours (too many part timers), the scheduled breaks, and the low wages (when you sell a million+ per year).

Just my thoughts as someone who has experienced it.
post #146 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

First of all, I am having a bit of a hard time understanding your post. But I get the gist. So I'll oblige. Perhaps you'll take five minutes and respond, point-by-point.



This para makes no sense. 'Unions can be bad.' Why? 'But exactly what Apple needs'. Why? If employees 'perform well', why does Apple need unions? So that they can perform better? How can that be if unions can be 'bad'? 'Apple does not tolerate sub-par employees.' Should Apple do so? If yes, will if affect the company's performance? If no, what can or should a union do?



Like what? Examples? Are they forced to? Can they walk?



Did Apple promise anyone commissions and the renege? Did Apple tell anyone that they could get paid more if they sold more and not keep that promise? For a basic retail job for a product that sells itself, what exactly is the skill that is required that says they should make more than low teens an hour? Are other retailers paying more? Otherwise, what is the basis for your sense of entitlement?



What's wrong with $30K/year? With ~9% unemployment and ~16% underemployment in this country, a lot of very skilled, hardworking people would love to be able to make that.



Because the market places a high value on the business, employees should be paid more? Why not suppliers and managers too, then? Why not customers, via lower prices for Apple products?



What's wrong with that?



What's wrong with that?



What's wrong with that?



Why is the fact that people are beating down the doors to work there a 'sad thing'? Could it have something do with the fact that it's a good place to work?



Why would employees want to threaten a 'complete staff walkout'? And, if they do, yet people continue to 'beat down the doors' how is that going to help those who walk out? Apple 'pay attention'? To what?

Like I said, disgusting. And I should add, juvenile.

Thanks... But for the name calling..that is juvenile...so hard to take your comments too seriously.
So to sum up, you believe in dog eat dog, like it or leave it, be grateful for what you have, don't rock the boat. Not a problem, we know where you stand.
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
Reply
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
Reply
post #147 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

Your critics utterly condemn your first sentence. Is there a middle ground? Would you settle for half-vast?

Being the agreeable person that I am, I am fully open to reaching a compromise and if any socialists took offense to my usage of the word "vast", then I would be content with replacing it with "above average" instead.
post #148 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMoan View Post

Oh boy, this is going to be such a great thread. Educational and informative and full of talk about Apple products.

Nope it is a valid discussion about apparently very ignorant Apple employees. There is no reason for anybody in retail to be a member of a union.
Quote:
I am soooo glad I am in a union so I am protected from people like you sir.

This is precisely the problem with union members.
Quote:
I hope you never have to go home and tell your family you lost your job because some jerk (like you) came to work in a bad mood.

You know this happens how?
Quote:
First and last post on this ignorant thread.

I do hope so.

By the way I'm not totally against unions, what I'm against is the mentality of union members like you. Contrary to some opinions expressed here I realize that some industries function best when operated in conjunction with unions. I'm also well aware of many industries where unions still have a positive impact on worker safety. However employees in Apples retail segment hardly have an issue worth representation at all.
post #149 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Steve Jobs should immediately fire any and all people who seek to unionize. If an employee is unhappy for whatever reason, then they are free to quit. Nobody forced them to take the job.

Unions are disgusting and they should be abolished and made illegal.

AMEN.... I couldn't agree with you more. Unions destroy damn near everything they touch. All they are is political money laundering organizations run by total commies.
post #150 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by n1954679 View Post

So much for America being a free country. What a joke. Freedom extends to all areas not just the bits that you like. So that includes allowing freedom to join a union. Workers in every other Western Country have the right to be in a union. So either let people have complete freedom of association or shut the F### up about freedom.

Wow.... freedom to be a TOTAL MORON and hand your money over to a bunch of Commies who's only concern is to bleed the company they work for DRY. Why don't you SHUT the F**K UP!

Thank GOD I live in a Right to work state called TEXAS. We don't much care for Commies and we don't care for UNIONS either. I oftentimes fail to see any difference between the two. Most all of you are OVER PAID, UNDER INFORMED and RADICAL. Take your nonsense to a nice country like North Korea. You've overstayed your welcome in the USA.
post #151 of 179
I work for Apple Retail, and have for three and a half years. In that time, I've worked in multiple stores, for multiple managers, with hundreds of different co-workers, and I've held several positions within the store. After reading all of these comments, I couldn't help but join in.

First of all, let's get one thing straight: on this planet, there are billions of people who live on less than two dollars a day, so by comparison Apple Retail isn't really all that bad. Nobody has to do anything dangerous, shifts are a standard workday's length, the environment is clean and well kept, and at the end of the day everyone who works for Apple Retail gets to go home with a lot more in their pockets than 90% of the world's population. Which is not bad.

Secondly, there will never be a union of Apple employees, and I think anyone currently working at Apple would agree. Apple has billions of dollars in cash and it's pretty evident they're willing to spend it to get what they want. Like a multi-store glass cube on one of the most expensive pieces of real estate in Manhattan, complete with a spiral glass staircase. Or a mine in Italy so they don't have to settle for sub-par tiles for the flooring in their stores. And I can't imagine anyone with an office on the upper floors of One Infinite Loop being comfortable with the idea of a union controlling what they can and cannot do with their retail stores. One thing you learn very quickly at Apple is that Apple likes control. And that's exactly why the employees who are trying to unionize are doing it.

In all of the time I've spent at Apple, there has been a clear and consistent message relayed by the company has been that the needs of Apple are always, and will always, be more important than your own. Anything you want from Apple will only be given to you so long as it fits the needs of the business. If it doesn't, no matter how reasonable it might be, you can forget it. It took Apple several years and a couple of lawsuits to put anti-fatigue mats behind the Genius Bar. Their reasoning for not doing so? It would ruin the aesthetics of the floor. That should tell you something.

It's a shame, really, because ten years ago when Apple Retail was born, things were very different. They hired the best people they could find, and paid them handsomely. Work/life balance was encouraged, there were profit sharing measures in place (in the form of bonuses based upon sales performance), and the attrition rate was incredibly low. For a while, things were good. Then the iPod came along, and all of a sudden there were more and more people coming in every day. Then the iPhone happened, and the Apple Store became the shopping destination of the oughts. People formed massive lines around the block just to get in the doors when a new one opened up, and Apple couldn't build them fast enough. In the span of ten years, they built more than 300 of them worldwide, with many in prominent locations, and every single one was outfitted with row after row of hand made solid maple tables and $700 chairs for the children's tables. Clearly the investment was worth the risk - last year the retail stores took in more than $2 billion in profits. But even with revenues like that, employee's wages went lower, and lower, and lower. And since the stores were growing at such a rapid pace, and they needed leadership, Apple began hiring managers from the clothing retailers, who brought with them the bad habits and practices of that industry. The Apple culture at the Apple Store became weaker, and weaker, and today there's little difference between working at an Apple Store and working at the Gap. Except that at least at the Gap, you might be able become a manager. To do that at Apple, you'd need to quit and become a manager somewhere else first.

You could make the argument that the people who have chosen to work at the Apple Store knew what they were getting into, and for the most part you're right. Nobody's being coerced, or forced to work against their will. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve a better deal than they're getting. While many of the people who work at Apple Stores are students, who may not need the extra income, there are also quite a few adults working there, and they have adult financial responsibilities just like everyone else. And each and every one of them works hard to try to make sure that everyone who leaves the store that day is happy. Many come to meetings on their days off to strategize about ways to help people more quickly, or convey information more efficiently. All of them are up early in the morning on the day of a product launch, working twelve, fourteen, or sixteen hour days to make sure that as many people as possible are able to buy the latest Apple product, and get their questions answered. They work on holidays, miss family gatherings, all in the name of keeping the lights on and the doors open so that you can swing by the Apple store on your way home from work, or early in the morning before it gets crowded. And how does Apple reward them? With race-to-the-bottom wages, a 3% annual raise cap, and no commission whatsoever. And please, save the "you get paid what you're worth" argument, because no degree, and no resume has ever or will ever amount to an employee's worth, and if you believe in a system where those are the only qualifications for earning more money then clearly you don't get it. Just go read Atlas Shrugged again, you'll be happier.

So maybe unionization isn't the answer, but let's have some sympathy for the people who want to put one together. They're in a bad situation, and facing a frightening economy where quitting simply isn't an option, and all they're really trying to do is ask for some improvements from a company with $60 billion in liquid assets. If you can't at least empathize with that, then you're exactly the reason America's wealth distribution is getting worse and worse every year.
post #152 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitzandbitez View Post

aGREED 100% FIRE THOSE BASTARDS and take away the FREE IPHONES and IPADS they got when these things came out and EVERY APPLE WORKER got one for FREE...

Just for the record this is NOT true. When the iphone originally came out all workers who had been there for at least a year got one. But no one after that for any models. And no free ipads. Hell, it's a good 3 months before they can get even a discount on the ipads.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #153 of 179
YES! Let's be like China where it's illegal to unionize! China's way is America's way! Forward to the glorious future my capitalist comrades!
post #154 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmos View Post

You could make the argument that the people who have chosen to work at the Apple Store knew what they were getting into, and for the most part you're right. Nobody's being coerced, or forced to work against their will. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve a better deal than they're getting. While many of the people who work at Apple Stores are students, who may not need the extra income, there are also quite a few adults working there, and they have adult financial responsibilities just like everyone else. And each and every one of them works hard to try to make sure that everyone who leaves the store that day is happy. Many come to meetings on their days off to strategize about ways to help people more quickly, or convey information more efficiently. All of them are up early in the morning on the day of a product launch, working twelve, fourteen, or sixteen hour days to make sure that as many people as possible are able to buy the latest Apple product, and get their questions answered. They work on holidays, miss family gatherings, all in the name of keeping the lights on and the doors open so that you can swing by the Apple store on your way home from work, or early in the morning before it gets crowded. And how does Apple reward them? With race-to-the-bottom wages, a 3% annual raise cap, and no commission whatsoever. And please, save the "you get paid what you're worth" argument, because no degree, and no resume has ever or will ever amount to an employee's worth, and if you believe in a system where those are the only qualifications for earning more money then clearly you don't get it. Just go read Atlas Shrugged again, you'll be happier.

So maybe unionization isn't the answer, but let's have some sympathy for the people who want to put one together. They're in a bad situation, and facing a frightening economy where quitting simply isn't an option, and all they're really trying to do is ask for some improvements from a company with $60 billion in liquid assets. If you can't at least empathize with that, then you're exactly the reason America's wealth distribution is getting worse and worse every year.


Disagree. Having been with Apple Retail should make you more attractive to other employers especially if you're as hardworking as painted in the top paragraph. If you feel you're not getting what your worth at Apple then shop around and move on to another post with better opportunities. I'm sure a lot have done just that both in Retail and Apple HQ.

In the second paragraph, you mention they're in a bad situation. What kind of bad situation would that be? Please elaborate cuz I fail to see it. And quitting is always an option, just make sure you've got something else lined up. And if you don't try harder.

As for that last thing regarding wealth distribution, A) paper wealth, B) lawmaker's fault but people ultimately let them get away with it. Keeping close tab on the debt ceiling because it'll affect the entire world and if things really go sour, these Apple employees will be thankful for the 'bad' job they have.
post #155 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcom006 View Post

And if it makes any pro-union people feel better, I dislike the stock market in general far more than unions and view it as an even bigger problem.

Apple is a wonderful example to center on in both discussions though, as it's very clear that Apple/Jobs is not a pro-union guy and wouldn't stand for any of the union antics at all, and they're also a public company that consistently refuses to bow to the will of the shareholders for the sake of the company.

They say things that are unpopular. They're vague. They're straight up secretive. They don't reward shareholders despite record profits, preferring to bank the money for strategic investments in the future. Then they spend billions on these "strategic investments" without expanding any more on what they actually are.

But all the while they "somehow" seem to be ahead of the curve, ever-increasingly profitable and generally the most highly-regarded company in the world, lead by the most admired CEO in the world.

Maybe there's something to that.

Companies that continually bow to unions and to shareholders are continuing to struggle. Who's really leading the company at that point? Anyone? You can't progress successfully with that kind of leadership in place. You need the right people with the right ideas calling the shots because that's what their job is. All of this quarter-to-quarter profit concern crap leads to completely backward thinking. Most businesses need to take risks to innovate and remain successful. The more difficult you make it for a business to do that, the less successful the business will ultimately be.

If you don't have strong enough leaders to stand up to the unions and the shareholders in this day and age, you're doomed. I don't care if it's cliche, it's still one of the best quotes on business I've ever read, and I think it applies well to all matters at hand.

"If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me 'A faster horse.'" -Henry Ford

I think the robber barons of the late 19th century would love you. Lets bring back the era of un accountability among corporations. Apple does not pay dividend because you buy the stock to go along for the ride: ie gambling. Actually Apple started out being a more forward thinkings but since it got a taste of being a monopoly in certain products the greed factor has kicked in big time. How often do you read about Apple giving money to charities. they sit on billions of dollars of cash and they make money off their employees, they can't even offer them a decent discount on products. When i worked in retail at least i could buy the company i worked for their products at cost. The employees at Apple have to meet sales quota with no monterey reward.
post #156 of 179
This is a superb and balanced post. It bears re-reading a few times. I have had experience in office jobs and retail jobs at non-Apple-related and Apple resellers. Granted, not Apple Store, but we faced all the things the poster talks about.

Again, great post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmos View Post

I work for Apple Retail, and have for three and a half years. In that time, I've worked in multiple stores, for multiple managers, with hundreds of different co-workers, and I've held several positions within the store. After reading all of these comments, I couldn't help but join in.

First of all, let's get one thing straight: on this planet, there are billions of people who live on less than two dollars a day, so by comparison Apple Retail isn't really all that bad. Nobody has to do anything dangerous, shifts are a standard workday's length, the environment is clean and well kept, and at the end of the day everyone who works for Apple Retail gets to go home with a lot more in their pockets than 90% of the world's population. Which is not bad.

Secondly, there will never be a union of Apple employees, and I think anyone currently working at Apple would agree. Apple has billions of dollars in cash and it's pretty evident they're willing to spend it to get what they want. Like a multi-store glass cube on one of the most expensive pieces of real estate in Manhattan, complete with a spiral glass staircase. Or a mine in Italy so they don't have to settle for sub-par tiles for the flooring in their stores. And I can't imagine anyone with an office on the upper floors of One Infinite Loop being comfortable with the idea of a union controlling what they can and cannot do with their retail stores. One thing you learn very quickly at Apple is that Apple likes control. And that's exactly why the employees who are trying to unionize are doing it.

In all of the time I've spent at Apple, there has been a clear and consistent message relayed by the company has been that the needs of Apple are always, and will always, be more important than your own. Anything you want from Apple will only be given to you so long as it fits the needs of the business. If it doesn't, no matter how reasonable it might be, you can forget it. It took Apple several years and a couple of lawsuits to put anti-fatigue mats behind the Genius Bar. Their reasoning for not doing so? It would ruin the aesthetics of the floor. That should tell you something.

It's a shame, really, because ten years ago when Apple Retail was born, things were very different. They hired the best people they could find, and paid them handsomely. Work/life balance was encouraged, there were profit sharing measures in place (in the form of bonuses based upon sales performance), and the attrition rate was incredibly low. For a while, things were good. Then the iPod came along, and all of a sudden there were more and more people coming in every day. Then the iPhone happened, and the Apple Store became the shopping destination of the oughts. People formed massive lines around the block just to get in the doors when a new one opened up, and Apple couldn't build them fast enough. In the span of ten years, they built more than 300 of them worldwide, with many in prominent locations, and every single one was outfitted with row after row of hand made solid maple tables and $700 chairs for the children's tables. Clearly the investment was worth the risk - last year the retail stores took in more than $2 billion in profits. But even with revenues like that, employee's wages went lower, and lower, and lower. And since the stores were growing at such a rapid pace, and they needed leadership, Apple began hiring managers from the clothing retailers, who brought with them the bad habits and practices of that industry. The Apple culture at the Apple Store became weaker, and weaker, and today there's little difference between working at an Apple Store and working at the Gap. Except that at least at the Gap, you might be able become a manager. To do that at Apple, you'd need to quit and become a manager somewhere else first.

You could make the argument that the people who have chosen to work at the Apple Store knew what they were getting into, and for the most part you're right. Nobody's being coerced, or forced to work against their will. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve a better deal than they're getting. While many of the people who work at Apple Stores are students, who may not need the extra income, there are also quite a few adults working there, and they have adult financial responsibilities just like everyone else. And each and every one of them works hard to try to make sure that everyone who leaves the store that day is happy. Many come to meetings on their days off to strategize about ways to help people more quickly, or convey information more efficiently. All of them are up early in the morning on the day of a product launch, working twelve, fourteen, or sixteen hour days to make sure that as many people as possible are able to buy the latest Apple product, and get their questions answered. They work on holidays, miss family gatherings, all in the name of keeping the lights on and the doors open so that you can swing by the Apple store on your way home from work, or early in the morning before it gets crowded. And how does Apple reward them? With race-to-the-bottom wages, a 3% annual raise cap, and no commission whatsoever. And please, save the "you get paid what you're worth" argument, because no degree, and no resume has ever or will ever amount to an employee's worth, and if you believe in a system where those are the only qualifications for earning more money then clearly you don't get it. Just go read Atlas Shrugged again, you'll be happier.

So maybe unionization isn't the answer, but let's have some sympathy for the people who want to put one together. They're in a bad situation, and facing a frightening economy where quitting simply isn't an option, and all they're really trying to do is ask for some improvements from a company with $60 billion in liquid assets. If you can't at least empathize with that, then you're exactly the reason America's wealth distribution is getting worse and worse every year.
post #157 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphodsplanet View Post

Wow.... freedom to be a TOTAL MORON and hand your money over to a bunch of Commies who's only concern is to bleed the company they work for DRY. Why don't you SHUT the F**K UP!

Thank GOD I live in a Right to work state called TEXAS. We don't much care for Commies and we don't care for UNIONS either. I oftentimes fail to see any difference between the two. Most all of you are OVER PAID, UNDER INFORMED and RADICAL. Take your nonsense to a nice country like North Korea. You've overstayed your welcome in the USA.

LOL! It's always someone from Texas that does the, "This is UH-MUUUUR'CA! You don't like it, (and "it" being whatever this guy from Texas happens to be spouting) GIT OUT!"

My guess is there are two types of Texans, therefore. Those that earn wages in the top 2% of Uh-mur'can society (since you believe they're the only people that deserve rights of any kind) and those that read at a second grade level. (since you've bought into supporting the interests of a class that you don't even belong to because some d-bag told you Jesus hates equality.... Although it doesn't take much arguing to show that the "historical Jesus" was one of those radical commies you keep going on about and if you could read the Bible you would have noticed it)

Which are you?

I guess to be fair GWB was in both of those categories.
post #158 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb098 View Post

Unions can be a bad thing. But in this case it is exactly what Apple retail needs. Employees continually perform VERY, let me repat, VERY well. Apple is a strict company and does not tolerate "sub-par" employees.

Unions by their nature protect the sub par.
Quote:
However, the employees put up with A LOT of crap and work very hard to sell for the company. Many employees have "million dollar" years, and guess what, they barely make in the low teens/ hour. It's ridiculous.

They are clerks what do you honestly expect? Honestly if they are making ten dollars an hour they are overpaid.

As to working hard, I've yet to see an Apple retail employee working hard.
Quote:

I can accurately say that Apple retail employees that are full time barely bring in 30k/year. For a company that is valued higher than any other tech company, its purely disgusting. Employees are coached to believe working there is a labor of love.

Frankly they are overpaid if that is true.
Quote:

Basically its good for college students. But it is not somewhere to make a career anymore. All the employees that were there on DAY ONE are now managers or in other higher positions making a good middle class income.

Retail is not and never has been a career. If you believe that at all you are living a fantasy.

As to the upper level positions that is why you get on board early.
Quote:
The sad thing is that people are beating down the door to work at Apple so it doesn't matter if employees quit. A union is what they need to threaten a complete staff walkout. Then Apple might pay attention.

Pay attention to what? Lazy people that don't want to work? People that think retail is a career? Just plain idiots.

I think the problem here is pretty clear, a bunch of people with a poor work ethic think they can maintain their lazy a$$ by getting a union to "protect them". It is a pathetic example of just how badly the countries work ethic has diminished.
post #159 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Unions by their nature protect the sub par.

They are clerks what do you honestly expect? Honestly if they are making ten dollars an hour they are overpaid.

As to working hard, I've yet to see an Apple retail employee working hard.

Frankly they are overpaid if that is true.

Retail is not and never has been a career. If you believe that at all you are living a fantasy.

As to the upper level positions that is why you get on board early.


Pay attention to what? Lazy people that don't want to work? People that think retail is a career? Just plain idiots.

I think the problem here is pretty clear, a bunch of people with a poor work ethic think they can maintain their lazy a$$ by getting a union to "protect them". It is a pathetic example of just how badly the countries work ethic has diminished.

So everyone that works retail is lazy and stupid?

Are you from Texas?
post #160 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

Thanks... But for the name calling..that is juvenile...so hard to take your comments too seriously.
So to sum up, you believe in dog eat dog, like it or leave it, be grateful for what you have, don't rock the boat. Not a problem, we know where you stand.

Juvenile.

And, as I suspected, lazy.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › As Apple stores celebrate 10 years, some employees look to unionize