As Apple stores celebrate 10 years, some employees look to unionize - Page 2

I am really surprised at the extent of anti-union sentiment on this board. I would have guessed maybe 50/50, but only one or two have anything positive to say, and even that is qualified.

Working for someone else is an agreement: I will provide a service for you in exchange for money. That agreement is ongoing. When one side or the other feels that the bargain is being violated in some way, fairness dictates the two should sit down, discuss, and reach a solution that is fair to both sides.

Your boss or supervisor doesn't come to the table as an individual like you, but with all the resources the company can muster: lawyers, researchers, consultants, etc. Most Americans believe in justice and fair play. They feel that a level playing field is a good thing. Businesses above the "small business" level have resources to enforce their position on a disagreement far beyond what an average employee can muster. The only way a fair resolution can be achieved is if you have access to equal backing. One guy against a corporation is a stacked deck, loaded dice, a blowout. When employees organize to form a unit, it goes a long way to making sure that both sides get heard.

I bet some of those who said that labor laws now make unions moot would also state in another forum that the less government regulation the better. Unions are not government. They are private, just like companies. Unions are a private sector solution.

Unions are no better or worse than corporations, their are good ones and bad ones, an lot somewhere between. Unfortunately, the ones you hear about are the usually the bad ones.

As far as the sentiment, "if you're not happy then leave" goes, imagine if that was extended to another bargain--that between a citizen and his government. "If you don't like a law, or a ticket, or a policy, then go to another country." That wouldn't be fair. We have mechanisms in our system to address grievances: elected representatives, the courts, etc. We don't say if you don't like it, lump it. Why should our working lives not play by the same rules? If someone paid a contractor to build you a house addition and he didn't finish it, or used cheap substitute materials, should the contractor be permitted to say: "If you don't like my work, go somewhere else? If you say, "no, you can go to court," then I say yes, unions make it possible for workers with few resources to go to court.

We are a government of checks and balances. Unions and corporations check and balance each other. The first amendment to the Constitution give you the right to organize for redress of grievances. To deny citizens the right to organize themselves in the workplace is un-American in the most fundamental way.

Sorry, but in fairness I had to speak out. There should be some balance in this discussion.

There should be more bosses like you. But many are not. If I was president of the union representing your workers, I would make sure that there was just cause, and if there was, it would be too bad for the employee.

I was an officer of a teachers union and I can assure you that this happened more than once: bad teachers were given every chance to improve, and if not, were shown the door.

This is the way unions should work, and often do. You just don't hear about it because it doesn't sell news.

See, I agree with your points of view right up until this part. You're mixing in various elements and variables that don't jive with the mentioned sentiment. You say "why should our working lives not play by the same rules?" Well, they do! That's why we have labor laws, minimum wages, the Department of Labor, health care reform (for better or worse)... all of these things, coupled with a free market and incentivised competition make it absolutely possible for someone to simply work for a competing company if they do not like their current position. We also have trade schools and colleges to train for and obtain more education and skills to make ourselves more valuable and open up more opportunities.

I'm not saying everything is perfect or that no one has been a victim of an abusive employer, but its a far stretch to say that *only* a union has the ability to provide checks and balances to corporations. That's just nonsense.

first thing that apple should do is to stop expanding hq's in california. go to a right tp work state like north carolina (cloud world) or risk becoming another law suit like boeing.

this initial union foray, so far, is just a chance for people to make noise. a start as an apple employee is a great first step to start learning how to be responsible, especially if this is your first or second job.

If you are going to chime in with the rest and just say you hate unions then say it. Don't make junk up to "prove" your case.

The idea that unions "destroyed" anything or "ruined the economy" is a complete fantasy based on zero actual facts.

If unions are so bad and we need to outsource all labour to slave economies like China, then why is Foxconn a union shop?

when you find one that is the exception, not the rule, let me know.


There's also nothing saying Apple can't hire people to replace them when they choose to go on strike.

Yeah, kill the unions. Honestly I don't know why we have them at all. Corporations will provide people with the minimum possible compensation that they can find people to work for and in an economy like this that is pretty much nothing. You don't like it? Find another job! I mean, there probably isn't another one and unemployment is a great indication of that, but why are we concerning ourselves with the lower and middle classes? I went to college. If you didn't you deserve death! I want to see anyone who isn't part of the privileged class beaten publicly for asking for anything, ever!

Obviously the only way anyone ever works retail is if they are lazy and undeserving of respect or a decent standard of living. I'm sick of all the minorities and immigrants asking for equality and regulations. If you want equality move to Canada! This is America, where children are horribly maimed by machinery because free markets dictate it's cheaper to replace dead or disfigured children with new ones rather than take minimal precautions to ensure their safety. Or at least, it used to be, until oversight was put in place to prevent such things. (Thanks unions, you screwed it up for everyone!)

But that was before corporations learned to love and care. Things are different now. Corruption no longer exists and everything is fair and wonderful because the evil unions (who's only interest is greed and doing evil, while corporations are just trying to help everyone and spread love to all) have been mostly beaten back by huge marketing efforts to teach people the truth about them. The growing wealth and social disparities (as well as economic collapse) could all be attributed in part to the failure of the few remaining stalwarts against corporate interests, but again, if you went to college why would you care? Human dignity doesn't help my bottom line or yours, so I don't see why it is needed. Our friends at Wal-mart have done the most for this holy cause and it appears that a lot of you are in the know already.

I'm glad Apple fanboys have become so in tune with corporate efficiencies. I just wish people would stop talking about decency. Like unions, it's a thing of the past.

I'm sorry but this is a HOT load. Unions have taken advantage of the goodwill of the american people and have hurt more than helped individuals recently in their continuing so called quest for fair treatment in the work place. I have to have a union guy come in just to move my lap top from one desk to another and it has to be scheduled even though I could've just as easily done it myself. Just because Unions were useful at one point in time doesn't mean they will continue to be useful in perpetuity.

I agree with Addy! Your anecdotal evidence must, by necessity, hold true for all instances across all professions, in all ways.

Unions exist for the sole purpose of ruining America! (It's the only thing that makes sense.)

As a futile attempt to balance the swarm of self aggrandizing, historically ignorant and delusional folks commenting on this article with such brilliance as "You don't have to work there loser", I say to the Apple unionizers "Go For It"!!
(And I say this as a holder of AAPL.)

To those who say unions are an anachronism, no longer needed because corporations have now seen the light and want to do everything to treat their employees fairly, I have to ask "What drugs are you on?"

The creation of the middle class in this country was made possible by unions (along with controls of hideous working conditions, child labor, and every benefit you enjoy that you somehow think you earned by your own brilliance and indispensability), and the destruction of the middle class has precisely paralleled the slaughter of the unions since Reagan.

What delusion leads you to think that you as an individual have ANY negotiating power against corporations with power once reserved for governments?

I could go in a long speech about the need for unions and the sad loss that has been their demise at the hands of corporate run government, but it will fall on deaf ears, because you all think you're John Galt.

So sad.

Well said, but this crowd won't understand your sarcasm.

If one decided to ignore the opinion of the Rush Limbaugh types that seem to permeate the airwaves these days and decided to do some research on the Auto industry and actually make up one's mind
based on fact ..... your opinion, entitled as you are to it, could not be farther from the truth, IMHO.

The simple truth about the auto industry is that, starting in the late 60s and early 70s .... the industry was lazy and complacent. The "Big 3" thought they could do no wrong ... and for almost two decades .... refused to accept the fact that the American consumer wanted safe, reliable and low maintenance ( read: better fuel milage) cars, as was shown by the shrinking market share of the Big 3.

Even when it became so obvious they couldn't ignore the problem anymore ... their answer was to create a climate of 0% financing ....and cash back .... and a slew of misguided sales gimmicks instead of focusing on the real problem ..... the fact that they were selling, or trying to ..... overpriced junk. In other words ... keep making junk, but try to 'bribe/dupe' the consumer into 'going along with this "plan'.

Not one of these business models was introduced by the unions .... but guess whose jobs were the first to go? .... not management .... they kept their jobs, for the most part, and even when some might have been replaced .... they got the "golden handshake" while the workers got the 'not so golden finger'.

Unions are just as necessary today as they have always been ..... to provide a balance of power. Any group can have bad policies created ..... unions or management .... that's why you need both .... a strong management team .... and a strong union .... to keep each other "on their toes" and to bring out the best in each other.

Remember this: Power corrupts .... and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That applies to both sides of the equation, equally. .... Cheers.

Um... start my own company and work for myself, maybe? Perhaps build myself a server case out of used LEGO pieces and name myself 'Google,' or build a reasonably-priced computer hand-carved out of wood in a garage somewhere and call myself 'Apple.'

So long as individuals are free to work for any company that will hire them, and so long as the opportunity to start your own company is there, corporations aren't the end-all, alpha-and-omega supergiants that control our lives as their minions or slaves. You don't need to be dramatic to drive home your point.

EDIT: I guess my point is if you submit that the only way to be successful or to earn a living in life is at the behest of a corporation that treats you poorly, then I guess you can develop the illusion that somehow 'unionizing' will make that limited existence more bearable. But again, unions were formed at a time when submitting yourself actually was the only way to earn a living. That's just simply not the case, these days. Not in this country, anyway.

Ahhh ... you mean like lawyers? .... or judges? .... or bankers? ..... or stockbrokers ???? If you say so.

Yeah. I mean, a new Google comes along every ten minutes. As soon as I'm done writing this post I'm gonna start my own Google... shoot, I might as well start two Googles, I mean, this is America!

...I just need to read a patent or two and see if anything hasn't been "invented" yet.

Look at almost every American industry or service where the costs are running away from all attempts to control, and the quality of the product or service is declining, and you will find a BIG FAT UNION.

U.S. Post Office
U.S. Auto Industry
U,S, Health Care
U.S. public school system
Other U.S. public service sectors such as police, prison guards, clerical buffoons, etc. etc.
Etc. etc. etc.

Unions are blood-sucking ticks that breed complacency, corruption, and in the public sector, are threats to democracy by creating an ever-bloated government that demands more and more control over private citizens' lives and pocket-books in order to prop itself up.

And what a joke that the most pro-union Apple Store is in Washington state!! Washington is also home to Boeing, a great American industrial company (fewer and fewer of them exist) that has had to suffer through crippling strikes about once every 3 years from its Washington state workforce.

Recently, Boeing decided to move some of its Dreamliner manufacturing operations to South Carolina, where there is no union to constantly interfere with manufacturing operations. Low and behold, the Obama administration is now attempting to block that move, saying it's a retaliation against the ever-striking unions. So not only are unions able to strike at will (which is fair...they have the right to work or not), but now they've gotten enough lackeys like Obama in high-office to prevent free companies from taking their business to another U.S. state! In other words, Boeing is literally being held down by the White House and ordered to manufacture planes in places where the union has control (which is unfair. If a union can walk away, so can the company's owners and their management).

The day I see a union in an Apple Store will be the day I never go into that store again.

Congratulations on being a fair minded employer .... but are you sure that all other employers are as fair as you? .... because unless you are .... we likely still need unions.

I agree. The United States is just one big Union that needs to be stopped. I wanna see State of the Corporation addresses. I want to live in the United States of Enron, where everything is always happy and nice! I bet if the banks ran the country there would never be problems. Those guys know what they're doing!

Let me know when you've got something intelligent to say....

I hear they are "too big to fail."

Don't misinterpret "opportunity" with "entitlement." Anyone has the opportunity to create the next Google, or Facebook, or Twitter, and every few years someone does. Three kids out of college decided to offer a free, p2p communications system out of their parent's basement, and 6 years later have it sold for over $8 billion to one of the largest corporations in the world! That doesn't mean everyone can or is willing to, and that certainly doesn't mean everyone *deserves* that honor.

You're paid what you're worth. Period. That's a simple fact. If you can get paid more working for someone else (or yourself), then go for it. If you can't find someone to pay you more than you're currently making, then I'm sorry to say you are not worth anything more than what you're earning. Go to school, get training, get education, make contacts, Take up internships... do whatever it takes to make yourself more valuable to someone else, so that they'll pay you more.

Blaming unions for the fate of the Big 3 is ignorant. But it is equally ignorant to look past the legacy costs of old union contracts and the support of the retirees that are no longer producing. Union legacy costs played a role and exacerbated the companies' poor business decisions. Not the unions fault... but they were aprt of the equation.

No, really, it's a brilliant idea. If every few years three or four people make a fortune then it means the rest of us are just too lazy, I guess. I bet those three are always from low income households and are probably mostly women and minorities, because free markets are about equality.

The one thing it definitely means is that those three or four people should be able to dictate all the rules of employment without any oversight or input from the employee. I mean, what other system makes sense? Certainly not unions!

[/sarcasm]

K. that's it. done.

I remember Stevo saying, Apple has spent a lot of money recruiting and training it's personnel and unlike other corporations that lay people off during a recession, Apple redoubles their efforts and moves people into R&D. So when the recession is over Apple doesn't have to waste time and money to hire and retrain people. Apple is positioned to take full advantage of the uptick after a recession.

In a way, Germany does this too. I think it is criminal that American corporations can dispose of people and lay them off on the Gov./Society's doorstep willy-nilly and move the jobs overseas. I understand the rational, ie., gov. regs, taxes, unrealistic union demands but, never-the-less, it has severely damaged this country.

We want to buy cheap Chinese crap from Walmart and the irony is a lot of people end up working at Walmart for subsistence wages. It's like eating your own leg for dinner!

PS. Just to elaborate on Germany...if the BMW plant experiences a downturn in demand, BMW has to put people on 3/4 time, then 1/2 time before they lay people off and dump them on the Gov/Taxpayers/Society. Germany was the first country to come out of the Global recession and within 6 months had a higher employment rate than before the recession. Rather like Apple when you think about it. I can't think of any corporation that actually makes things that has done as well as Apple. The blood-sucking Banks and Goldman-Sux are bigger than before the recession but like I said, blood-suckers. Who would work for Goldman?

Allow me to clarify that as a former apple employee, the only time Apple has giving away something for free to its employees was the day the original iphone was released.

For the looks of your writing you sound like an angry person, maybe that's why apple never bothered to read your resume and offered you a job since your words lack sense.

Good luck finding a job Mr Angry Dwarf.

As was 'weak management' .... my point exactly. It takes two sides to sign a contract.

Just image all the people who be could be put to work if we outlawed Unions. Why we could be like China where Apple pays laborers $5.00 to work 36 hour shifts with no health care to built your iPhones and iPads.
I bet there are many out of work Americans willing to just jump at the chance to make a weekly salary like that and live in a slum.

[civility]

Unions have been declining in the last 30 years, in step with or outpacing the rate of jobs leaving the United States.

And keep in mind, friend, the Pyramids were not built with kindness. Maintaining human dignity comes at the expense of efficiency, but that is, allegedly, something that we value here. Actually, it IS something we value here, at least for a while yet. When was the last time a story broke about vast numbers of Americans killing themselves because of harsh working conditions? I'm not eager to see a trend of it, and I would like to see the trend subside elsewhere.

I'm not saying unions make us more viable economically, but I would rather be in a declining country with standards than a rising one without. I don't believe that we are required to pick between those two extremes, however. There is more complexity to the subject than you seem to assume.

[/civility]

The problem isn't unions inherently but the NLRB putting the full weight of the federal government behind unions.

The simple fact of the matter is that employees should be able to form unions but that doesn't mean that an employer should be forced to recognize the union.

As an employer, I should be able to fire or hire anyone I want or conduct business operations however I want where I want but this is not possible with the NLRB.

If employees unionize, I should be able to tell them to take a hike. That is a risk as I would have to replace all of the workers so removing them might not be worth whatever demands the workers are making. Sadly, because of the NLRB I am forced to either shutdown the entire operation and move or recognize the union.

That is what is completely upside-down.

There is more complexity than I can explain in two paragraphs...Agreed!

Fair enough.

Unions are imperfect, but I would argue that with ever-declining wages and ever-increasing reports of unfair management behavior, unions are needed more in certain industries, not less. Especially as many non-unionized companies are trying to get away with paying little more than minimum wage. And they're also needed in cases where safety is a huge issue, like coal mines.

The negative aspects of unions are when they try to institute absurd work rules, restrict management's ability to use employees as they see fit, force "no-show" workers or abscond with pension funds.

Being part of a union is a trade-off: you're trading away your own ability to demonstrate your unique importance to a company and get salary increases based on your own skills and relationship with management in return for a fixed, guaranteed contract of raises and benefits. This benefits people who either don't do a very good job or those who do, but feel like they will be either arbitrarily treated by management or discriminated against. Where there are lots of people in a company who do exactly the same job and don't have the chance to prove their own individual worth, a union probably makes sense for them because their salary increases or promotions will be based solely on an objective factor: usually either a score on an exam (in the case of public workers) or seniority in the job.

In general, it's not union salaries that have busted the economy. It was absurd pension plans, but that's not the fault of the unions - it's the fault of the politicians who signed on to those contracts.

There is a perception in this country that union workers make absurd wages, but for the most part, that's not true and most union contracts provide for cruddy salary increases: usually no more than 3% per year.

I don't buy into the notion that if you don't like a place, don't work there. What if every large corporation decided to only pay minimum wage? In an economy with 10% unemployment, they could certainly do so. And although in the one case in my career where there was a chance employees were going to try and organize a union, I would have voted "no", I think workers have the right to organize. But they should be careful what they wish for, because the salary increases the union might negotiate for them might be less than Apple might be willing to pay otherwise, in spite of any poor behavior by individual managers. I've worked for companies where non-union employees actually got better wages/benefits than union employees as a strategy to keep the union out. It wasn't the compensation that bothered the company - it was the work rules and interference with management.

And as for this fear of "socialism", the post office, the roads, the public libraries, public hospitals, public schools, etc. are all "socialist". And the vast majority of people in this country, even those who claim to hate anything socialist, do not want to abandon Social Security.

And as for other posters' comments that Apple should fire anyone trying to organize: that's clearly illegal.

Really? Your "knowledge of history is vast"? You seriously want to start a post that way? Was there ever a clearer sign to the readers that this post should be ignored?

It's incredible how ignorant some of these anti-collective bargaining posts are. While some unions have abused their power, those incidents do not even begin to compare to the abuses carried out by management every day. Thank God for the efforts of unions, OSHA, the standard 40 hour work week, equal pay for equal work, and all the many other benefits these morons take for granted. Even so, with the decline in unions, on average, American workers have fewer training opportunities, and earn less for their work now than they have at any time in the last 30 years.

I've considered taking a part-time job at an Apple store just for fun, but I know people who work there (real Mac experts who are relegated to the lowest positions even as they are expected to do work that should get them higher levels of pay.) The stories I have heard have turned me off. They have a real bunch of jerks running the Apple stores and the pay is pathetic (you'd do much better at just about any other major high end retailer in the malls [the managers do OK though.]) I assume this is why the quality of workers in the Apple stores seems to have declined so severely over the last few years (my opinion.) Seems like a lot of Apple "Associates" are pretty stupid these days.

Fortunately, retail sales is not the only choice I have on how to earn a living.

[Oh yeah, and I do own a few hundred shares of AAPL.]

The Australian labour market has been regulated more or less since federation and we have all the same shit you Americans have. For some reason we have near full employment and most retail people, whilst they may struggle, earn significantly more than their stateside counterparts.

Then unions here have been a key part of the labour bargain for more than a century now but their influence is diminishing. Maybe we are heading down the same path. Unfortunate, really.

If you don't like or you aren't agree of the working conditions, conducts, policies, etc of any establishment you may be working at, you have all the right to immediately leave the place unless there is/are justified reasons you want to start a complaint on your favor.

I worked at the apple store in Charlotte, NC when it opened for the first time, and they treated me well and fair, my pay was according to my level of knowledge of their products and also because i was good running their point of sale computers, the managers were always there and always told me if there is anything that needs to be addressed to please speak up in our meetings so everybody can have and give their inputs.

Some people there complained about not receiving any kind of commission or bonuses for the quantity of products they sell, well some retail stores do and some others don't, if you are not agree the way they do business you are free to leave and find something that best fits for you nobody is making you stay and work against your will, if you should leave... just leave.

Thanks for reading, and i am a new member here and this topic really caught my interest.

Thanks again!

I know all about this article and other articles like it. The movie, "Waiting for Superman" hits the nail on the head. It makes me sick that people can hang on to their job after that sort gross misconduct.

I am very anti-union in it's current form. In my previous statement, I was actually referring to people that deserved to keep their job, not leeches.

I am not a big fan of unions. In my 15 year career I have had 2 years when my pay was negotiated by a union and 13 years when I just negotiated myself.

The 2 years done by the union were worse than 12 of the 13 I did myself. The 13th one was a recession year when no one got raises.

2 years ago I would have agreed, but at the moment I am in a bad place, not looking to unionize or anything, but ya know, the reason I can not quit without a new job lined up is a simple one - RENT, if I don't pay it or the check doesnt clear, im screwed. Sure I have savings but shoot, what if I don't find a job in 4-6 months?

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