As Apple stores celebrate 10 years, some employees look to unionize - Page 3

Unions have earned a bad name over the years, especially government worker unions.

NOBODY SHOULD EVER BE FORCED TO JOIN A UNION! \

Mismanagement bought down the American auto industry not its workers. GM was busy building 3 types of Hummers while Toyota was building Prius' and making its entire line of cars have a hybrid version. You guys here always talk about how these other companies lack the vision Apple has, well that's exactly what the dragged down the American auto industry not unions.

Of course not. I never said unions are ruining America. I'm saying they abuse their power. Business abusing power is why unions were originally created in the first place. Now we are seeing the other side of it. Apple stores are doing just fine without a union.

My God! Sanity in a post about unions! I can hardly believe my eyes!

It's refreshing to read that many people recognize that unions have become more of a problem than anything these days. Living in Detroit, it often seems like everyone is in a union so you don't get a lot of objective discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of unions. I respect the history of unions and fully believe that there was a point in time when they were necessary, however, in the modern era, this simply is not the case far more often than not.

Obviously in Detroit this is as big of an issue as any, especially lately with what's going on in education. Again, you get a lot of working class people who are pro-union, though theyre not incredibly involved or informed about their own union let alone passionate about it. But I've known multiple people that at one point were union leaders at some of the auto manufacturing plants. They went in with good intentions and tried to maintain their integrity, but quickly dropped out of participating in any way, shape or form. Today, their disgust with the unions and their leadership on whole knows no bounds. And again, these were people who at one point were very pro-union and popular enough to get elected to leadership until they fully realized how little room their is for integrity in modern unions.

The majority of workers in unions are descent people who put in honest hard work on a consistent basis, but they're strung along by union leadership in ways that they oftentimes don't recognize or understand. It's an unfortunate situation. It's been interesting to observe how it's developed into such a political minefield now for both major parties in this country, as even the Democrats have been struggling to maintain their "relationship" with unions knowing full well how big of a problem the unions really are.

Anyways, to the point, this would be an incredibly dumb move for these employees to make. There's no way that this will work out well for them in the end. After all, Steve Jobs has made it no secret that he thinks unions are one of the biggest problems in this country. There's no way this would fly at Apple. The individual stores would be shut down immediately, no doubt about it. I'm sure they know this, which is why I don't expect anything to actually happen. It's most likely just the press making a story out of mostly nothing as usual.

This thread shows most AI posters are from the right. And no surprise, because the biggest group of Apple customers is indeed older white male, who are mostly right-leaning. But people, whether they're from the left or from the right, should learn to stop using those talking points from the media and try to use their independent thinking, and it goes like this:

Union is an institutional arrangement for the workers, and it's used when it's the optimal instituational arrangement for the workers. It's optimal when workers are better off negotiating the terms of contract together against (usually) big corporations. A union that runs well will take away most of the economic profit generated by the corporation, and there's no 'right' or 'wrong' about it because, the output of the corporation is by the joint production of the workers and the capital/management, and there's no clear way to justify morally which side should get what percentage of that output.

+1 Unions are all about collective bargaining. Why is it so wrong for the workers to seek the protection of a contract when every C_O of every company has one? Production has gone up while wages have remained stagnant, and who reaps the benefits? The cooperations

I guess your point is your post is about as well thought out as your knee-jerk anti-union attitude, to wit:

"Um... start my own company and work for myself, maybe?"

Yeah, right. Everyone in the whole country should start their own company and work for themselves. About as impractical an idea as I've ever heard of. Next time you decide to shoot your mouth off you might want to consider putting your brain in gear first.

All I can think is that either you're independently wealthy or you're just too damned young to know what the hades you're talking about. If it's the first, then you in particular need to shut your pie hole. If it's the second, then you need to consider that you may not know everything just yet.

There are actually plenty of unions in Europe. In Germany the president of the union sits on the Board of Directors and have inside knowledge of whats going on within the company. No secrets, no lies, and no us VS. them.

I think that was dasanman69's point. You know, sarcasm....

Do you have any facts to back up this supposition?

And if true, it would be one of the few things Mr. Jobs and I would be in major disagreement about.

Please refrain from misquoting. Lets drop you the first clue on a looming issue with Unions that affected the auto industry and will reach a critical point for the State of California: pensions. However, this is delving off-topic. One reason for Apple Store employees to avoid Unions is having to pay union dues. My wife had a part-time job at a grocery store where her union dues were more than her monthly pay itself. She had to quit that job after two months.

I think we're in substantial agreement. But without unions I doubt we would have all the laws and protections you mention.

With the auto industry, it absolutely goes both ways. There was absolutely mismanagement, no doubt about it. But their was absolutely just as big of a problem with the workers and unions.

What people who make this argument fail to recognize is that companies like GM had to maintain their higher end product lines because that's where the profit was and for a long while, that's what was selling. GM's operating cost is far higher than a Toyota's operating cost and Toyota or Honda don't have to worry about all the money that's gone out to a previous generation of workers. How easy do you think it'd be for GM to streamline their operations and become all the more automated when dealing with the Unions? Here's a hint: it wouldn't be. On top of that, you're going to do so to make cars with much lower profit margins in the face of all this resistance? It's hardly so simple.

Detroit auto management wasn't oblivious to any of this. Again, I agree that they mismanaged the situation none the less, but at the same time, it's not nearly as simple or one-sided of a situation as many make it out to be. Their mismanagement was far more broad in nature than anything related to car design and trends, and it goes many more years back. They let things get out of hand for years on too many fronts when profits were pouring in. There was little foresight or caution and they bent too easily in the wake of it all.

But again, it goes both ways. It all boils down to greed and a lack of foresight by both management and the unions. What unions fail to recognize or respect is that while a company may be raking in the profits for a time, that may not always be the case. By trying to set standards in the bountiful times based on a feeling of entitlement, you set the company and yourself up for a world of trouble if profits shrink.

Companies need the flexibility to change and adapt to trends or laws or whatever it may be in as fast a manner as possible. Apple, for example, has consistently done this and it's lead to much of their success. They bank a lot of money so they have the ability to be incredibly flexible when it comes time to change things up or develop new products, and they also openly make decisions that they fully admit aren't geared towards maximizing current profits. They realize that strategy is everything and part of a good strategy is a good, strong bank account.

All the same, change is generally an expensive, difficult process and offers no guarantees of the highest profitability even if executed perfectly. That's how change goes; you've got to make the most of this. That's what a good company does. Unless the workers are fully open to changing, adapting and taking less money in these times as well, they'd do well to be a whole lot more reasonable at the negotiating table. They might not like it, and it may seem unfair, but by not respecting it, they set themselves and the company up for future trouble down the line. There is always a price for progress.

But hey, who has the foresight for any of that when there's so much greed to focus on instead?

The Confederacy would have agreed with you, because the United States of America is a union.

When America was a huge manufacturing company most of it's work force worked in factories, sweat shops, foundries etc... Since most of those industries have for good what is left are white collar and service jobs. White collar jobs pay much better than working in retail or other service places. If you are young, are without a college degree (sometimes with a degree) or live in an area with few economic opportunities chances are you work at a mall, restaurant or some service oriented position dealing with the public. If everyone with these jobs took your advice good luck finding help next time you go shopping or need to call tech support, or want to buy a hamburger. Unions are a sign of democracy where the citizens have a right to demand a safe workplace, a fair wage and reasonable time and benefits. Unions are the only bargaining power the majority of under skilled workers have and they have every right to raise concerns about these issues.

So you think your boss and everyone else's boss is fair and honest all the time in their dealings with employees? I'm old and I have not found that to be true. Unions can even things out a little, but as people have said previously most unions don't seem to be good at that any longer.

Nope. In 2008, Toyota saw its sales drop ~34% and Honda by ~32%. Except the American auto industry was affected far more due to higher wages compared to their Japanese counterparts.

Just for the record, some people who work for Apple in Silicon Valley are represented by unions.

Good thing there's a clear way to justify logically which side should get what percentage of the output. A worker is hired at a certain rate to make a product. If that product should be less profitable, should the worker be subject to a pay cut? Do you think these institutions would stand for that? How do you think the unions liked the idea of changing the auto lines from the big, profitable SUV's to smaller cars with much slimmer profit margins? Oh yeah, on top of that, it'd make many jobs irrelevant. Again, they didn't like the idea much at all.

The workers union may oftentimes make the product, but they do little to steer the direction of the ship. They don't tend to innovate or do research or develop marketing strategies. They're not the one's spending massive amounts of money to take chances that may or may not be profitable. But the company absolutely does need the flexibility to be able to change and evolve or the company might as well have their workers start digging a metaphorical company grave.

The bottom line is that the company needs money to do this. They also need money to pay the brightest minds that generate ideas leading to successful, profitable products so all the workers can have a job at all and keep making those products. Profits should be largely banked for the future, strategic investments should be made when necessary and the brightest minds paid accordingly. The longterm sustainability of the company should always be the primary dictating factor in determining what to do with profits. I would go so far as to say this is not only the most logical choice, it too is also morally justified.

If the management from the auto companies and the workers unions had focused on this objective more over the years, a lot more Detroiters would still have good jobs and the "Big 3" might still actually mean something.

Ask yourself what else happened in 2008 that might have made car buying and especially American corporations tank. I'll bet car buying dropped in 1929-30 too.

People are not slaves, they have every right to form or join a union if they so desire.

Irrelevant. The issue is why American automakers were affected more than their Japanese counterparts in the United States.

Labor unions are about on par with the mafia and the government of Iran. They perform no useful function other than to enrich the drones who control them. They should be outlawed worldwide.

Just look at the sorry situation in professional sports. The NBA, the NFL, etc. Sick, very sick, all because of greedy sports agents and labor unions.

Like any other large corporation, Apple is bound to hire a small percentage of loser employees who will whine and complain. Apple should show them the door.

I'm surprised you wouldn't believe it just based around his persona in general and all the stories of him firing people on elevator rides, but here are some very pointed comments made about teachers unions as well as him drawing analogies to correlations in the business world.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/12921...rs_unions.html

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/4560691.html

I don't know this for certain, but I strongly suspect that Pixar was/is mostly unionized.

Not irrelevant at all. The U.S. had a total collapse of its economy, the Japanese did not. Do you really think that Japanese workers would be more effected by that than American auto workers? Not only did American auto buyers go into a non-purchasing mode, but the American auto industry took a hit from losses to its investments as well--a double whammy. Japanese autos not only have their own market to themselves, but they sell far more cars overseas than U.S. automakers do. So they were far better able to take the hit than U.S automakers. You are taking micro view when a macro view is necessary.

Could be. Cleaning workers are part of SEIU at Apple facilities. This is one of the most militant and effective unions out there. When you represent the most disrespected class of workers, you need to be.

And if it makes any pro-union people feel better, I dislike the stock market in general far more than unions and view it as an even bigger problem.

Apple is a wonderful example to center on in both discussions though, as it's very clear that Apple/Jobs is not a pro-union guy and wouldn't stand for any of the union antics at all, and they're also a public company that consistently refuses to bow to the will of the shareholders for the sake of the company.

They say things that are unpopular. They're vague. They're straight up secretive. They don't reward shareholders despite record profits, preferring to bank the money for strategic investments in the future. Then they spend billions on these "strategic investments" without expanding any more on what they actually are.

But all the while they "somehow" seem to be ahead of the curve, ever-increasingly profitable and generally the most highly-regarded company in the world, lead by the most admired CEO in the world.

Maybe there's something to that.

Companies that continually bow to unions and to shareholders are continuing to struggle. Who's really leading the company at that point? Anyone? You can't progress successfully with that kind of leadership in place. You need the right people with the right ideas calling the shots because that's what their job is. All of this quarter-to-quarter profit concern crap leads to completely backward thinking. Most businesses need to take risks to innovate and remain successful. The more difficult you make it for a business to do that, the less successful the business will ultimately be.

If you don't have strong enough leaders to stand up to the unions and the shareholders in this day and age, you're doomed. I don't care if it's cliche, it's still one of the best quotes on business I've ever read, and I think it applies well to all matters at hand.

"If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me 'A faster horse.'" -Henry Ford

You do realize that Honda sells more cars in the United States than in the rest of the world combined including Japan? Also, Honda and Toyota manufacture their cars for Americans in the United States and both have separate entities set up in the United States.

They also have a right to not work for an employer they feel is screwing them over

It wouldn't take a union of all retail employees everywhere. If Apple Store employees unionized they could shut down Apple's retail operations if they went on strike. That's plenty of leverage right there. And a successful strike would inspire employees at other retailers to unionize.

SEIU = lowlife thugs, a bunch of losers and mindless drones, sporting their unfashionable purple shirts. One of the worst unions in the USA, without a doubt.

Did the CEO, CFO, COO, and all the other C_Os take a pay cut? No. So why should the guy at the bottom take a pay cut? BTW its not the unions job to innovate. Thats like Apple depending on Foxxconn to come up with ideas for its next device. GMs R&D dept was asleep for way too long.

Ok and whats wrong with that?

+1000000 I was just going to write that and you beat me to it. BTW did you know that GM is the biggest importer of cars into the US?

@MacRulez,

You and I do not often see eye-to-eye on these forums -- but I mostly agree with what you said, above.

And, I am OK with Apple employees (or any employees) right to unionize or take any legal collective action to improve their situation or redress perceived wrongs.

This, coming from a former owner, CEO, COO, of a small corporation (126 employees) that had retail computer stores. We sold Apples, IBM PCs, etc.

We were non-union -- but that was never an issue.

All our employees were salaried and non-comissioned -- we felt that all personnel should treat all customers as their customers!

We did offer bonuses for special individual performance -- and when the "team" met defined goals.

We had the best employees -- well qualified and well trained.

Our employees received top pay equal (or better benefits) than management and owners.

We promoted from within, and most of our employees were with us for many years -- very little turnover.

Most of those who left, had outgrown us -- and a large number of these went to work for Apple directly! (We had the best [Apple] computer stores in Silicon Valley -- and our main store was less than 1 mile from Apple Headquarters.

We had a lot of customers who were unionized -- and our employees had to be aware of, and comply with union regulations when we went on site (Government, Medical, Education, Manufacturing...).

Unions are a fact of life and business needs to co-exist with them.

In over 11 years, I can count on one hand the number of serious employer/employee issues.


The reasons I am detailing all this:

1) Unions are not necessarily a good or bad thing -- though anecdotally I can document both good and bad experiences.

2) If you treat your employees fairly, as equal members of a team -- you/they should find little need to look elsewhere for satisfaction.

3) Apple knows this -- and has one of the best working environments of any major corporation.

To what end? Is a person to continue going from job to job because employers know they can screw with people? In a big city people have choices of where to work but in small towns its much less. I dont know about you but I dont see many HELP WANTED signs out there.

Shoot if every company were like that there would be no need for unions.

Employers are not slave-owners, friend. There are labor laws, regulations, etc. If an employer isn't following the law, there are places to report them to. If you've been treated unfairly, feel free to sue.

There's opportunity abound. If you live in a small city and you're limited to what jobs are available, well, then move. Seriously, if you want to be a famous actor, come to Los Angeles. If you want to be an animator, go to Georgia. If you want to be a game developer, Seattle is calling you. *YOU* have to make the effort if you want a good living, not rely on some organization to decide that for you.

If you don't like your job, find a new one. Not qualified to find a better one? Go to school and get some training. Don't want to go through the effort and work hard? Deal with your situation, then, and stop complaining that your HIGH-DEMAND job forces you to work so hard when there are tons of applicants just waiting to replace you.