You certainly are entitled to your opinion (At least for now here in the US and Canada
). I also think my view is logically sound. In a nutshell, it is unfair to force people from western oriented societies like the United States to compete with people from societies that are vastly different culturally like far east oriented societies. There is nothing bigoted about that.
Further, you are reading things into my post that aren't there. When I wrote "we" I wasn't referring to you and I specifically. My post is being made in a public forum that undoubtedly is filled with "westerners." There are probably many Americans like myself. I was using "we" in the collective sense. I intended "we" to include americans and/or those from western oriented cultures. If you and I were captains of two opposing football teams, I might shake your hand before the game and say to you, "we are going to kick your butt." In such a scenario, it is clear I do not intend you to be part of the "we" I am referring to even though I am directing my comments at you.
As you say, I do not know you well enough to make any assumptions about you. Yet, you hypocritically assume all these things about me by my use of the word "we." Is it possible you made a common mistake many people make nowadays, myself included occasionally? Namely, presume to understand what another person intended without seeking further clarification. Often times multiple meanings can be read into somebody's comments.
Moreover, I never said Chinese people don't have values. My comments were directed at the Chinese government specifically. As a culture, however, the Chinese have values that are very different then Americans. Are you really going to suggest that isn't true? There are countless examples that can be made as to how this is the case. I also don't recall suggesting American values as a whole are better or without fault. Though I would argue that from a workers' perspective, the western system is far friendlier and in turn benefits the greater amount of people.
Moreover, I also prefaced my comments by pointing out I have done extensive work in both China and the US, as well as other Countries. I have visited many factories in the US as well as other places. That is to point out that my opinion is grounded in some actual experience in the topic at hand. Trust me a Ford parts factory in the US or Canada is a much different place then a Ford parts factory in China. You don't' read stories like this
occurring in the US or any other western based societies.
That is because in western based societies we as a culture have developed values that differ from the values of far east based societies like China (again that is the collective "we"). For instance, the whole labor movement in the US sparked many of those culturally accepted values that are more friendly to workers in the United States then in a typical far east country. With the boom of mass manufacturing in China, perhaps over time, China will develop some of the ideals currently held here in western societies. Now they are very different.
From my actual experience, China's system treats manufacturing workers harsh by western standards. That again brings me to my overall point: western based societies shouldn't be forced by their own governments to compete with systems vastly different then their own. It undermines our own system to the detriment of the greater number of our own people.
Finally, twelve suicides in a half of year at one company seems high. Have you read about anything like that happening in Canada recently? How about any other western based societies? Didn't think so. Read Apple's report outlining the deficiencies at FoxConn. Those concerns wouldn't happen at factories operating legally in the US. Perhaps at the illegal sweat shops I am familiar with in places like New York and New Jersey. Not in legitimate factories though.
Interestingly enough, Foxconn's CEO wants worker protection laws in Brazil to be changed as a condition of going to Brazil. In other words, Foxconn can't compete operating in a society that has laws that value basic human rights, such as providing a safe working environment, protecting children, and outlining what Brazilians would consider reasonable working conditions.
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Sorry. I appreciate your attempt to be logical and make a defence of your earlier statements but this just reads even *more* like plain old bigotry to me.
"China does not believe in what we as a country believe?" What hubris! What gall!
Aside from being meaningless to talk about "what China believes" your assuming here that:
- I'm an American
- "we" are all Americans
- the American way is somehow better than China's
(all incorrect BTW)
The sentiments are in between the lines of everything you write. I think you'd be good to take some time off in the wilderness and seriously examine some of the concepts that underlie your thoughts here. Your taking lots for granted here at best.
In reference to my comments about having worked in some factories that have appalling conditions and those factories not being in China ... again you assume I'm talking about the US (I'm not), and assume further that I'm talking about illegal immigrants or some such (I'm not).
I'm talking about middle class white people working in factories in "western countries" (Europe and Canada are my personal examples), and you don't have to go far to find said conditions. If you think that all countries outside of China (and a few illegal companies in the US) have great working conditions then you are mistaken.
Factory work is mind-numbingly dull and repetitious. Most don't do it unless they have no other option and are the classic "downtrodden" of a particular society. It's not work that anyone on this forum is likely to have much experience at because it's the work the "poor" do and almost everyone here is guaranteed to have come from an upper middle class background at minimum.
Americans don't have the market cornered on "values," other countries had them before America was a glint in the colonialists eyes. That kind of pig-headedness is why Americans are often reviled around the world. America's "values" are also not uniformly admired around the world, neither are they some kind of gold standard to be adhered to.
For the record, I live in Canada (the "other" America just to your north), and a lot of us up here think a lot of your core American "values" are pretty twisted in fact. We have a better record on Human Rights than you do, and a better constitution that provides for much more freedoms than you Americans enjoy. We have a stronger, fairer economy, better working conditions in our factories and a better standard of living all around.
No one knows these things of course because, well .. it's Canada. We don't go around the world pretending like we own it, lording it over everyone else or acting as if we are the only one's that matter or have any idea what "values" are.
PS - I can't believe
that you brought up the suicide dodge. "suicide in large numbers?" your exaggerations speak for themselves.