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May 21st. Still here. - Page 4

post #121 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh give it a rest MJ. Stop looking for any fucking flimsy excuse to dodge a question.

I'm more than happy to answer...when you ask politely.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #122 of 338
Thread Starter 
You admitted your beliefs sound crazy. You also said that they are true. I'm using terminology that you accepted to ask you a question. Now suddenly it's not polite enough for you. This is just another one of your control games and I'm not playing.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #123 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You admitted your beliefs sound crazy. You also said that they are true.

Actually what I specifically said was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970

Yes it does sound insane. It is very bizarre. It is very out of whack with our understanding of the world. It's true that a lot of things about God have this characteristic. They sound weird or crazy to our finite human minds.

Do you realize that just because it seems crazy doesn't mean it isn't true?

I agreed that it sounds crazy to our minds. I did not say it was crazy. That's you. I then asked you if you understood that even though something sounds crazy doesn't mean it isn't true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm using terminology that you accepted to ask you a question. Now suddenly it's not polite enough for you. This is just another one of your control games and I'm not playing.

I think you know what I mean. But allowing for the possibility that you don't let me help. Here's a more polite way to ask your questions:

What makes you think that what you believe is the truth?

Or...

What makes you think that what you believe, which sounds crazy to me, is the truth?

See. Isn't that much nicer?

OK. I will answer this question: What makes you think that what you believe is the truth?

I don't know exactly. I certainly don't know it is true...I believe it is true. That's why it's called faith. For example I know I'm sitting on a brown couch right now. This doesn't require any faith. On the other hand I believe that there is $X in my bank account. I don't know it's there. I won't know until I try to withdraw it all and they actually give it to me.

Issues about how the world might end, and whether, when and how God will return (and even His existence) are in the category of faith. I don't know it will happen, but I believe it will. I have no idea of how or when. I agree this requires much more faith than the bank account faith...but it is faith, not knowledge.

What gives me this faith? Well, after a time of thinking about, contemplating, considering the claims of the Bible and the alternatives, etc. I've come to accept what the Bible says about God and His son Jesus Christ...and this leads me to take on faith that what is said about him returning at some point in the future on faith. It doesn't mean I have it all clearly understood and figured out...and there are things that I struggle with understanding all the time. I even wrestle with doubt at times. I don't assume I know everything there is to know about all of that.

I realize that you (and others) think this sounds "crazy" or "insane". That's fine. I get that. I'm okay with that. Of course it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I might be. I might not be. I respect the fact that you both disagree and even think it's crazy. I understand that some people require more proof or evidence or whatever. For me, I have enough evidence to satisfy me and realize that some of it I must take on faith.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #124 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What gives me this faith? Well, after a time of thinking about, contemplating, considering the claims of the Bible and the alternatives, etc. I've come to accept what the Bible says about God and His son Jesus Christ...and this leads me to take on faith that what is said about him returning at some point in the future on faith. It doesn't mean I have it all clearly understood and figured out...and there are things that I struggle with understanding all the time. I even wrestle with doubt at times. I don't assume I know everything there is to know about all of that.

Once you've accepted these beliefs, there's basically no point to argumentum anymore, other than perhaps for entertainment. Why? You have ceased to become rationale about it. Sounds insulting, but that is the definition of "faith", to believe something beyond reason, to believe something without proof.

Once someone gets there, it's basically not possible for that someone to pull back. The Harold Camping, May 21st believers generally aren't going to be stepping off the precipice of their beliefs. The vast majority will rationalize and retrofit their beliefs, with some being even more fervent than before. Some will actually come to their senses, but I do not expect a lot. Camping will continue to find an audience. He will rationalize why he was wrong and continue apace.

How would you have convinced Camping that he was wrong? He's heard everything before. He was wrong before in 1994! How would you have convinced his followers that they were making a mistake? Those millions of dollars could have been donated to charity and their collective efforts could have gone to building homes for the poor, caring for the sick, funded medical research, environment, or other causes.

I don't actually have problem with the Harold Camping followers. Life should be filled with glorious variety. They did what they felt was right and didn't try to harm anyone. Overall, a harmless thing. There does come times where it is harmful. That's when the problems arise.
post #125 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

What question of yours did I not answer?

Sorry, it was not phrased as a question, it was implied as a question but written more as an affirmative. So I retract my previous statement.

It was: I am willing to bet that even you have read that and understood that to be a fundamental difference between what is written and what he was pushing. Whether you believed it or not.

My apologies.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #126 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

I don't actually have problem with the Harold Camping followers. Life should be filled with glorious variety. They did what they felt was right and didn't try to harm anyone. Overall, a harmless thing. There does come times where it is harmful. That's when the problems arise.

The followers themselves I have no problem with, nor their belief that Jesus would return. It is those who would destroy the beliefs of their followers by doing a patently false prophecy and trying to pass it off as real that I take issue with. Taking away a persons beliefs or hope for the future is very wrong.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #127 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

How would you have convinced Camping that he was wrong? He's heard everything before. He was wrong before in 1994! How would you have convinced his followers that they were making a mistake?

I guess I'm not sure why I would have felt a need to do so. If he was a close personal friend...then sure...maybe I would have tried, through a relationship of trust, I would have tried to help him think about where he was mistaken...If I could have found those things.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #128 of 338
Edited.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #129 of 338
This should wipe away the cocky smiles of the athiests-

"Harold Camping, architect of Saturday's dramatic events in which Judgment Day came and went without so much as an earthquake, has revealed what went wrong. He took to his show on his network Family Radio to reveal the simple truth: the Apocalypse was imminent, he'd just got it out by five months. So now the world is going to end really and truly this time on 21 October.

Camping was disarmingly honest about the impact the world's inconvenient continuance was having on him, after he predicted 200 million Christians would rise to heaven by 6pm on Saturday followed by the destruction of the Earth in a massive fireball.

Many of Camping's followers might be asking similar questions, particularly those who gave up their jobs or donated some of the $100m or so believed to have been spent on billboards and RV trucks advertising the imminent arrival of doomsday. But then, there's no consumer protection legislation when it comes to Armageddon."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ing-apocalypse
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #130 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

This should wipe away the cocky smiles of the athiests-

"Harold Camping, architect of Saturday's dramatic events in which Judgment Day came and went without so much as an earthquake, has revealed what went wrong. He took to his show on his network Family Radio to reveal the simple truth: the Apocalypse was imminent, he'd just got it out by five months. So now the world is going to end really and truly this time on 21 October.

Camping was disarmingly honest about the impact the world's inconvenient continuance was having on him, after he predicted 200 million Christians would rise to heaven by 6pm on Saturday followed by the destruction of the Earth in a massive fireball.

Many of Camping's followers might be asking similar questions, particularly those who gave up their jobs or donated some of the $100m or so believed to have been spent on billboards and RV trucks advertising the imminent arrival of doomsday. But then, there's no consumer protection legislation when it comes to Armageddon."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ing-apocalypse

Well, the good news is, if the world does end in 5 months, at least I won't have to listen to disproven fairy tales of free market anarchist utopia ever again.
post #131 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well, the good news is, if the world does end in 5 months, at least I won't have to listen to disproven fairy tales of free market anarchist utopia ever again.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #132 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I guess I'm not sure why I would have felt a need to do so. If he was a close personal friend...then sure...maybe I would have tried, through a relationship of trust, I would have tried to help him think about where he was mistaken...If I could have found those things.

Do you think he's mistaken about Oct 21?
post #133 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Do you think he's mistaken about Oct 21?

Haven't thought about it. Not worried about it either way.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #134 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Do you think he's mistaken about Oct 21?

Simple answer, yes. If he thinks he can predict the exact date then he is wrong.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #135 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Haven't thought about it. Not worried about it either way.

I was trying to gage what your belief was first (no progress yet), because maybe I didn't couch my question clearly enough or you didn't interpret it correctly.

Do you think you would be able to convince Camping that he is wrong on his doomsday prediction? Your answer was a non-commital: you didn't feel the need, maybe you would have tried if he was a fried and could see he was wrong.

Fellow Christians are presumably spending their capital in unwise ways due to Camping's preachings. Under this scenario, would not the right thing to do be diffusing the situation with Camping by either to get him to back off or to discredit him?

So, repeating the question. Your task is to convince Camping, and I'll break out to his followers as well, that he is wrong. Do you think you could change his mind? I'm really expecting the answer to be no.
post #136 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

I was trying to gage what your belief was first (no progress yet), because maybe I didn't couch my question clearly enough or you didn't interpret it correctly.

Not sure why my belief matters here...but okay...I'll play along.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Do you think you would be able to convince Camping that he is wrong on his doomsday prediction? Your answer was a non-commital: you didn't feel the need, maybe you would have tried if he was a fried and could see he was wrong.

Me personally? No. I don't know the man. He doesn't know me. I have no reason to believe he would listen to anything I said. That was kinda my point. In a more general sense the question of whether someone he knows and trusts could change his mind? I don't know. Possibly. It's possible he is so stubborn he cannot be dealt with at all. Maybe he even suffers from a mental illness of some kind. I don't know.

If what you're trying to get at is that when someone relies on faith they cannot be reasoned with at all, I would argue that's...well...and unreasonable conclusion. This is highly individualistic. Everyone is different. Some have strong faith based on broad set of evidentiary things that still require some faith to close the gaps. Others have very little faith in some things. Others have thought through where and what they put their faith in, others have not. I don't think you could reasonably say that anyone that has faith in a thing is unreasonable and cannot be reasoned with at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Fellow Christians are presumably spending their capital in unwise ways due to Camping's preachings. Under this scenario, would not the right thing to do be diffusing the situation with Camping by either to get him to back off or to discredit him?

Some probably are. Probably not a lot though. Most of the Christians I know think he's a joke. But absent any ability to reason with him, I would try to reason with people I know who are believing, following and acting on his predictions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

So, repeating the question. Your task is to convince Camping, and I'll break out to his followers as well, that he is wrong. Do you think you could change his mind? I'm really expecting the answer to be no.

Probably not...but I've provided a more detailed answer above. The truth is I really don't know though. I don't know the man. I don't know anything about him (except tid bits I've heard recently.) I get the feeling you're trying to get me to agree to a generalized premise that someone who is predicting something we all think is unbelievable, crazy or unlikely is himself unreasonable and cannot be reasoned with. I reject the premise in the general sense because something that sounds unbelievable, crazy or unlikely make in fact be right and the person spouting it may have some insight the rest of lack. I agree this is not common...but that's where we need to get to specifics. I don't have enough specifics on this guy.

Does all of that seem like a reasonable and acceptable answer?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #137 of 338
I really wish I was taking the piss but I dont need too. - The book of Exodus, is the story of the sperm travelling down the female genital tract, to fertilization in the womb.

Thats because the Old Testicles is exactly that. An ancient Fertility religion, as they all were, told as parable.
post #138 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Not sure why my belief matters here...but okay...I'll play along.

It helps me understand the context of your answers.

Quote:
If what you're trying to get at is that when someone relies on faith they cannot be reasoned with at all, I would argue that's...well...and unreasonable conclusion. This is highly individualistic. Everyone is different. Some have strong faith based on broad set of evidentiary things that still require some faith to close the gaps. Others have very little faith in some things. Others have thought through where and what they put their faith in, others have not. I don't think you could reasonably say that anyone that has faith in a thing is unreasonable and cannot be reasoned with at all.

Yes. There are certainly gradations. But for the May 21st believers, many of them went all in. They spent their life savings. They quit their jobs and went on a tour to spread the word. Some told their own children that they won't be raptured.

I don't think we'd have many issues if we are just talking about the passive believers who are going through the motions and just trying to live their life (the normal people).

Quote:
I get the feeling you're trying to get me to agree to a generalized premise that someone who is predicting something we all think is unbelievable, crazy or unlikely is himself unreasonable and cannot be reasoned with.

That is the point, with gradations. Is there anything that will shake you of your faith? Anything?

So far, I'm barely getting you to say something about Camping and his followers and whether they could be convinced they are wrong. I'd tried to make sure to understand that you yourself didn't believe it. Not clear yet here, as you haven't said the Oct 21 doomsday prediction is wrong or right.

Quote:
I reject the premise in the general sense because something that sounds unbelievable, crazy or unlikely make in fact be right and the person spouting it may have some insight the rest of lack. I agree this is not common...but that's where we need to get to specifics. I don't have enough specifics on this guy.

Come up with the goods. Come up with the goods. Don't you think it is kind of weird that Camping was wrong in 1994 and is wrong in 2011, yet he still believes? I'm still waiting on a good accounting of how his followers are dealing with it. Waiting for a good news article about it.
post #139 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

It helps me understand the context of your answers.



Yes. There are certainly gradations. But for the May 21st believers, many of them went all in. They spent their life savings. They quit their jobs and went on a tour to spread the word. Some told their own children that they won't be raptured.

I don't think we'd have many issues if we are just talking about the passive believers who are going through the motions and just trying to live their life (the normal people).



That is the point, with gradations. Is there anything that will shake you of your faith? Anything?

So far, I'm barely getting you to say something about Camping and his followers and whether they could be convinced they are wrong. I'd tried to make sure to understand that you yourself didn't believe it. Not clear yet here, as you haven't said the Oct 21 doomsday prediction is wrong or right.



Come up with the goods. Come up with the goods. Don't you think it is kind of weird that Camping was wrong in 1994 and is wrong in 2011, yet he still believes? I'm still waiting on a good accounting of how his followers are dealing with it. Waiting for a good news article about it.

Why do you care what MJ believes or what would shake his faith? How is that anything that would even interest you specifically without having some other agenda?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #140 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Yes. There are certainly gradations. But for the May 21st believers, many of them went all in. They spent their life savings. They quit their jobs and went on a tour to spread the word. Some told their own children that they won't be raptured.

OK. It looks like they took a risk on this guy's prediction and were wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

I don't think we'd have many issues if we are just talking about the passive believers who are going through the motions and just trying to live their life (the normal people).

What is the issue you have here?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Is there anything that will shake you of your faith? Anything?

I'll assume you're speaking of my faith in God. I have faith in many things (as do all people)...but it faith in God that some people find so odd...anyway...

Sure...I question my faith in God a lot. I question it when a tornado blows through a town and destroys the lives and property of people. I question it when a young father and husband dies too early (by my own calendar). I question it when evil appears to prevail in the world. I question it when I have personal struggles that I think I shouldn't have. I question it when I read things in the Bible that I don't fully understand or can't fully reconcile with my own limited, finite, human kind. All of these things cause me to revisit my faith. Sometimes for long stretches, sometimes I go a long time where my faith in God is stronger.

In general on the issue of having faith in things, when someone makes very specific and precise predictions about things to come in the future, which we must always necessarily take on faith (whether our faith is that it will or won't come to pass)...when the prediction does not come true, you should question your faith in other predictions made by that same person or group. But the absolute fact is that, a priori, we cannot know whether it is true or not. There is faith in both beliefs (that it is true or it is not)...and it may well be that past experiences and other relevant facts and evidence suggest that one of the two faith positions is more likely...but both are faith positions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

So far, I'm barely getting you to say something about Camping and his followers and whether they could be convinced they are wrong. I'd tried to make sure to understand that you yourself didn't believe it. Not clear yet here, as you haven't said the Oct 21 doomsday prediction is wrong or right.

Sorry I'm unable to satisfy you on this. Furthermore I have no idea why my take on this matters to you so much.

I don't know anything about his prediction. I don't have enough detail to provide any assessment. My quick guess is that he's wrong. Quick guess is that he's a bit nutty. But none of us will know that for sure until the date comes and goes now will we.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Don't you think it is kind of weird that Camping was wrong in 1994 and is wrong in 2011, yet he still believes?

Yes, I do.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #141 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Why do you care what MJ believes or what would shake his faith? How is that anything that would even interest you specifically without having some other agenda?

Because it tells you something about the person. Which on a forum like this can help you understand where the person is coming from. So I say why not? Unless the person in question has another agenda themselves and not revealing their position would give them an advantage.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #142 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

It helps me understand the context of your answers.



Yes. There are certainly gradations. But for the May 21st believers, many of them went all in. They spent their life savings. They quit their jobs and went on a tour to spread the word. Some told their own children that they won't be raptured.

I don't think we'd have many issues if we are just talking about the passive believers who are going through the motions and just trying to live their life (the normal people).



That is the point, with gradations. Is there anything that will shake you of your faith? Anything?

So far, I'm barely getting you to say something about Camping and his followers and whether they could be convinced they are wrong. I'd tried to make sure to understand that you yourself didn't believe it. Not clear yet here, as you haven't said the Oct 21 doomsday prediction is wrong or right.



Come up with the goods. Come up with the goods. Don't you think it is kind of weird that Camping was wrong in 1994 and is wrong in 2011, yet he still believes? I'm still waiting on a good accounting of how his followers are dealing with it. Waiting for a good news article about it.

Can you imagine if he admitted he was wrong? Why people might want their money back!

Tar and feathers and being run out of town on a rail come to mind!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #143 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Because it tells you something about the person. Which on a forum like this can help you understand where the person is coming from. So I say why not? Unless the person in question has another agenda themselves and not revealing their position would give them an advantage.

What does it tell you Jimmac? Specifically? That might give people some insight into you, and where you are coming from based on your characterization of what their response means. Unless you have another agenda and not revealing your position gives you an advantage.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #144 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Why do you care what MJ believes or what would shake his faith? How is that anything that would even interest you specifically without having some other agenda?

I can only say why it is of interest to ME...

I'm trying to figure out what makes religious people tick... why they would believe something so outlandish with no reason or evidence whatsoever.
I know some truly believe, and I don't care to "convert" them to anything... but I WOULD like to understand WHY they do these things.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #145 of 338
You appear to be painting with a fairly broad brush...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I'm trying to figure out what makes religious people tick...

...that's a very broad spectrum of people.

And editorializing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

something so outlandish

I'm not sure if you're referring to this specific event or what "religious people" in believe in general. Perhaps you'll can be more specific.

And then assuming things...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

with no reason or evidence whatsoever.

I suppose it depends a lot on what you're referring to, but since you made a broad and general statement, I'm assuming that pretty much anything "religious people" believe is "outlandish" (in your opinion) and must be believed "with no reason or evidence whatsoever."

Please correct me if I've made any incorrect assumptions here.

Or, let me ask more directly:

Do you believe that all religious people believe "outlandish" (your opinion) things without any reason or evidence whatsoever?

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post #146 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I can only say why it is of interest to ME...

I'm trying to figure out what makes religious people tick... why they would believe something so outlandish with no reason or evidence whatsoever.
I know some truly believe, and I don't care to "convert" them to anything... but I WOULD like to understand WHY they do these things.

From my observations and my Own life.
People believe based on experience. Things they have experienced lead them to believe that there is a God. As they experience more their belief becomes stronger and more tangible. I have experienced situations where I should have been killed or very seriously injured and had a scratch only. Situations where someone should have died of cancer, and after long prayer by the church they went in for their surgery only to find that the cancer was completely gone already. These miracles are part of the reason people believe what to those who have not experienced them find outlandish or strange.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #147 of 338
Just read an interesting opinion piece that I feel does a good job of saying what I believe to be true.

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/...e-gone-too-far

Quote:
In modern Christianity, fanatics have a clear runway to positions of leadership and influence. And virtually no one wants to dampen our appetite for fanaticism, no matter how much scripture and reason indicate a better way. Perhaps we are so sensitive to the secular persecution of our religion, that we are reluctant to criticize anything within our own fold. Our reluctance could prove costly, as fanatics tend to rise above correction, and to only be deterred when the damage has been done.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #148 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

From my observations and my Own life.
People believe based on experience. Things they have experienced lead them to believe that there is a God. As they experience more their belief becomes stronger and more tangible. I have experienced situations where I should have been killed or very seriously injured and had a scratch only. Situations where someone should have died of cancer, and after long prayer by the church they went in for their surgery only to find that the cancer was completely gone already. These miracles are part of the reason people believe what to those who have not experienced them find outlandish or strange.

This totally fits with the idea that people turn to god only when they reach the limits of their knowledge.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #149 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

This totally fits with the idea that people turn to god only when they reach the limits of their knowledge.

If that is how you choose to see it. Then by all means, limit yourself to that viewpoint.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #150 of 338
Thread Starter 
You experience situations where you think you should have been killed, but weren't. You attribute that to god because you are incapable of recording and interpreting the physical data that would explain why you were left unscathed.

You see people who have triumphed against cancer yet do not know the reason why nor in some cases support the veracity of the claims.

You see miracles--the unexplained.

In all these situations, you substitute god as the reason because you don't have any other. You reached the end of your knowledge and "found god." I say you found the unknown too difficult to bear.

By the way, you're not alone. Some of the greatest minds in all of human history have fallen for the same thing. Maybe I'll make a post about that another time.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #151 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You experience situations where you think you should have been killed, but weren't. You attribute that to god because you are incapable of recording and interpreting the physical data that would explain why you were left unscathed.

You see people who have triumphed against cancer yet do not know the reason why nor in some cases support the veracity of the claims.

You see miracles--the unexplained.

In all these situations, you substitute god as the reason because you don't have any other. You reached the end of your knowledge and "found god." I say you found the unknown too difficult to bear.

By the way, you're not alone. Some of the greatest minds in all of human history have fallen for the same thing. Maybe I'll make a post about that another time.

You make assumptions about what I saw or didn't and what was true about the claims or not even though you have no knowledge whatsoever about my circumstance. Even if I gave you the full details you would either call me a liar or make up some other reason why something happened when it has no scientific or medical reason it should have happened that way. What you simply call unexplained others see as miraculous. What you call good fortune, others call blessings from God.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #152 of 338
Thread Starter 
Right, but there's no evidence for any divine intervention anywhere. It's the unexplained attributed to a deity. I don't care how you want to spin it, you know that's what it is.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #153 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Right, but there's no evidence for any divine intervention anywhere. It's the unexplained attributed to a deity. I don't care how you want to spin it, you know that's what it is.

And there is no evidence against it either. No matter how you spin it, you know you cannot disprove it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #154 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

And there is no evidence against it either. No matter how you spin it, you know you cannot disprove it.

But the burden of proof is on the person making the incredible claims. So it's not my duty to disprove divine intervention. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Aside from that though, thank you for acknowledging that god exists at the limits of one's knowledge.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #155 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But the burden of proof is on the person making the incredible claims. So it's not my duty to disprove divine intervention. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Aside from that though, thank you for acknowledging that god exists at the limits of one's knowledge.

What is more extraordinary than the universe itself?

He exists at all times. But at the limits of ones knowledge, when you have reached the end of yourself, people are more likely to realize that there is more than just what is seen.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #156 of 338
Thread Starter 
The universe itself does not reveal its origins. And for a god that allegedly wants to get its message out, it does so in a rather haphazard and inefficient way.

At the end of one's knowledge, it's REALLY HARD to just say "I don't know." Bam, religion.

Ask me about the origins of the universe? How it came to be? I don't know. Let's find out. Let's not make up an anthropocentric deity to sweep it into the rug.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #157 of 338
And what if we discover that the origins of the universe are deity, BR?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #158 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The universe itself does not reveal its origins. And for a god that allegedly wants to get its message out, it does so in a rather haphazard and inefficient way.

At the end of one's knowledge, it's REALLY HARD to just say "I don't know." Bam, religion.

Ask me about the origins of the universe? How it came to be? I don't know. Let's find out. Let's not make up an anthropocentric deity to sweep it into the rug.

I realize that you need to know why. Why is a very important question. I also realize that because is not a great answer. In this case, feel free to keep looking, "because" is all that you will find to determine origins. But along the way, there will be other amazing discoveries.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #159 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

And what if we discover that the origins of the universe are deity, BR?

Define deity. If you can't provide a falsifiable definition, you can't discover whatever nonsense thing you talk about.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #160 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Define deity. If you can't provide a falsifiable definition, you can't discover whatever nonsense thing you talk about.

Wikipedia defines deity as:

"a recognized preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often religiously referred to as a god."

So, in light of that definition, can you answer my question?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
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