May 21st. Still here. - Page 7

I'm going to play this one like BR really is interested in conversation.

The 'Rapture' doctrine, as it is commonly known (though like the theological term 'trinity', rapture itself is not used in the Bible) dates from the 17th, not the 19th century. However, catholic theologians are said to have described similar ideas earlier that that.

The fact that the doctrine dates relatively late in the Christian timeline doesn't invalidate its ideas. Thinking differently about traditional interpretations was a by-product of the Reformation. It should be remembered that it was the 16th century Reformation and subsequent translation of the Bible into common languages that caused a true, worldwide study of Biblical doctrines, in largely the same way that the Internet rocked our world.

It is also clear that events foretold in Daniel and Revelation were more difficult to interpret in the 16th century, when the level of technological advancement wasn't far off from the era the New Testament was written. For example, the type of ship that Paul uses to travel in the New Testament wasn't significantly different from that used by Columbus to rediscover the New World.*

Martin Luther didn't even think that Revelation should be included in the Bible. Today, it would be difficult to imagine the Bible without it. Especially for iOS users.

The Rapture doctrine is part of an Evangelical understanding that the Old Testament isn't a discarded piece of history and that the Church does not replace Israel directly. There are still prophecies relevant to Israel that will be fulfilled. Prophecies that can only be fulfilled by Israel.

If anyone has specific questions or there's a real want for details here on what Evangelicals believe regarding the Rapture and the End Times (and why), I'm happy to take part in that conversation.

*just for you, BR.

NoahJ, do you see any of the symptoms of the coming seal-opening End Times evident today as you described in such an erudite fashion on this old thread?

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...t=11094&page=3

Perhaps the wars and rumors of wars. All the rest has not occurred that I am aware of. That is a very old thread. Thank you for the trip down memory lane. I don't have time to post long topics like that anymore.

Oh, and I am not TRUMPTMAN. But thanks for asking.

Didn't say you were.

Actually, though, just curious.

What are your views on the end times, trumpers?

Do you have any shared ground, religiously-speaking, with NoahJ?

Then your account has been hacked and people are PMing me from it. Also, they are sending friend requests to me from you as well. I accepted so this can be plainly seen.

Either you are BSing me, or you should change your password immediately.

Very curious.

You don't even understand to whom I'm referring. Goodbye.

Well it doesn't really matter whether I do or do not because I'm not the one taking this stance....

tonton casts Irrefutable Logic. Noah blocks with Religious Ability to Ignore Reality and Create Your Own.

See if I were taking my biases and calling them irrefutable logic and taking the biases of others and calling them ignoring reality while being unwilling to hold both to the same standard, then perhaps you'd have a point.


I'd suggest you simply post the PM's publicly. MJ has made his view on public posting of PM's very, very clear.

I had a thought. Maybe the Rapture is just like one laying down on a beautiful green park, the sun shining warmly. Your favorite band plays a great but smooth set of songs. A cool breeze comes, you close your eyes, the light becomes more intense, envelops you... and then, you're gone. Where to? It doesn't even matter.

Where's the 'like' button? Someone gets it.

There are people who will never be satisfied with what this life and this world have to offer. These people invented heaven.

The rest of us have the opportunity to live in it.

'The Rapture' is an extension of the idea of heaven that says not only will I and my friends go to heaven, there will be a time when we all go there together (circumventing that nasty 'death' business) while everybody we don't like will go to hell. Hope you're prepared, nyah, nyah nyah nyah-nyah.

Do you really believe in this Rapture? I think it is over hyped with all other religions involved. Religion is a money maker.

Trumptman, do you share NoahJ's position on the End Times and the Rapture, and so on?

I think whether or not there is an afterlife is a thought that virtually all humans will have some time in their lives at any stage in our lives. It is not merely philosophical, it also is a scientific question.

The insight I have is that what we think of as "this life" could very well be very different from "the next life" whether it is nothing/ or something else.

I clearly have spiritual inclinations but I can't take the literal translations from religion with a straight face. We can't simply take our frame of reference, and then just put it onto the "afterlife" with it's rules, who goes, who doesn't, and all that. It would be like taking a 320x240pixel 256-colour image, and then using it as a background for a new iMac's 27" IPS display.

There could be a reason though that we will never be happy with this world, because it is by nature a "projection" of a false world. This theory of course is that what we live in is but an illusion.

The question is, can we hold in our minds non-dualism... That this world is both real and unreal. There is neither death nor life. Ah, this is a big challenge, no?

Yes, please go on. At this stage I am inclined to believe that the second coming of "Christ" means that we as human beings individually become enlightened, thus gaining "Christ-like" awareness. This is the "End Times" because time itself and the universe as we perceive it no longer operate nor are important as we used to think of it.

Yes, New Age revisionist antichrist stuff, as some would say.

What do Evangelicals believe? What exactly is this denomination, by the way? Where did it come from? How does it compare to, say, Anglicans? Curious.

I think for a lot of folks, where to does matter. Obviously there are a lot of folks out there, myself included who do not desire to think life has no meaning and purpose.


This is profoundly wrong and again, part of the hypocrisy so many show. Remember religion is the opiate of the masses as uttered by Karl Marx? That is because the masses were content not to engage in revolution in what they considered to be "this life" because all the ills and injustices would be cured in the afterlife.

The people who are never satisfied with this life and what this world have to offer are the utopian socialists. It's pretty clear that they will murder and engage in genocide to bring this very religious vision reality and we have plenty of examples of that as well.

So again, I think about who will cause me more harm. I might have a group of Jehovah's Witness believers. They knock on my door. They talk to me and hand me pamphlets. They go away. They don't harm me.

Meanwhile the socialist utopians want to control what pet I can own, what I can feed my kid, if my penis is circumcised, confiscate my income, etc.

They don't knock on my door, talk to me or hand me pamphlets. They know what is right for no other reason than they are Übermensch.


I don't know exactly what his position happens to be but an idea stands on it's own. If you believe your idea is right it must be proven so apart from what Noah believes. It doesn't become right just because you claim to prove his wrong.

Leftists adopt this sort of reasoning often so it isn't surprising you've done it here. I'm sure if Noah weren't a "religious kook" in your eyes, then he would be a -ist engaging in an -ism. It's a way to avoid thought and engagement. You're allowed to disqualify him from the discussion rather than having to prove your own ideas which is why I posted this reply...

Believing that the global overpopulation will occur on a specific day: CRAZY NUTBAG WORTHY OF SCORN
Believing that the global overpopulation will occur nebulously soon: Completely sane and well-balanced position.

Believing that the global warming will occur on a specific day: CRAZY NUTBAG WORTHY OF SCORN
Believing that the global warming will occur nebulously soon: Completely sane and well-balanced position.

Those positions are no different, and require the same level of faith as the rapture. Whatever label you assign to a believer of the rapture, especially if that label is meant to disqualify from discussion rather than engage, apply to yourself and other "believers" of these two religions.

All I asked you was whether or not you shared NoahJ's beliefs. I simply asked a question, which you haven't answered.

Do you believe that the End Times are imminent?

Do you believe that the Rapture is imminent?

FYI, here is Mormon doctrine on the:

Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Millenium

I do not believe end times are imminent be it from Rapture, global warming, overpopulation, or a giant asteroid. However since none of us know the future, me claiming your prognostication is "crazy" and mine "sane" is just a lame attempt to disqualify someone from discussion.

So... prove that a God exists ... that there is ANYthing after death.

If you believe that to be right, it must be proven... It doesn't become right just because you claim it is. (to paraphrase YOUR OWN ARGUMENT)

Ah, but when I said when the "rapture" comes where you're going doesn't matter, I did not mean to say that life has no meaning and purpose, nor is there no meaning and purpose to the afterlife.

If one has been exposed to the possibilities, I had an insight that, basically, (A)one could have enough faith not to worry what *exactly* is going to happen, and (B) what happens will be so out of our current frame of reference even what we think will happen is a sliver of what might happen.

This is my issue with any spiritual writings as "the word of God, no debates acceptable". It's like, if you go back even just 1000 years, and then tell them you can touch a slate and it will show you letters arriving instantly from all over the world, how could they comprehend them? If whoever wrote Revelations actually knew exactly how the world would end and what would happen, from the writings alone, how are we supposed to understand it? Guidance must also come from within, and what is "revealed in religious texts" clearly must be of non-physical, non-literal nature, if they have to have any use.

Then, what about Islam's interpretation of The End Of The World:

A short period after Prophet Jesus has killed the Dajjal, the two mighty tribes of Yajuj and Ma'juj will appear, causing murder, pillage and devastation wherever they go. The emergence of Ya'juj and Ma'juj is also another major sign of Qiyamah. Through the invocation of Prophet Jesus they will be destroyed. (Nawwas-b-Samaan-Muslim).

http://www.inter-islam.org/faith/Majorsigns.html#intro

How is a rational human yet someone who seeks meaning interpret all of this going on? My answer: I don't think the major religions quite have a handle on this stuff.

More from the Quran from the website:

When Prophet Jesus returns for the second time he will reign as a Khalifh and not a Prophet, follow the Qur'an and Sunnah and rule according to it. He will break the cross the Christians worship (indicating that he will bring Christianity to an end), elevate and spread Islam through out the world.
He will also kill the pig which the Christians consider Halaal to eat (and use) and abolish the Jizya (tax). In Prophet Jesus reign they will not pay this tax because he will not accept anything but Islam for the non believers and they will all believe in him. The Qur'an says, "There is not a single section of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) but will believe in him and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them." (Surah-An-Nisa)

Are Christians and Muslims aware what is actually in these Holy Books? It's pretty incendiary stuff.

I do not wish to attack any major religions specifically, but since the link was posted, consider:

http://lds.org/study/topics/millennium?lang=eng

The Millennium will be a time of righteousness and peace on the earth. The Lord has revealed that in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease (D&C 101:26; see also Isaiah 11:6-9). Satan will be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men (D&C 45:55; see also Revelation 20:1-3).

Could this, perhaps, talk of one's own sense of righteousness and peace, so that we transcend the physical nature of our existence, and that "Satan", i.e. thoughts and feelings of guilt and "evil", have no place in our hearts?

By all means, I think that is a very valid question/point. While many interpret scripture in a very literal sense - and indeed in some cases is it IS meant to be literal - there is also a spiritual aspect to scripture that is often ignored or misunderstood.

Wrong it only needs to be proven if I want to attempt to use it to control you or force you into action.

This is the issue with leftist authoritarianism. Like I noted, if JW comes to my door, they can try to convince me of their religious views or perhaps I could act like them and show up at your door and try to convince you.

If you or I are unconvinced of the respective arguments, the door is closed and the respective party goes away. They might fling out a "you'll burn in hell" or two if they are particularly aggressive.

If only the influence of secular religions like socialism utopianism, global warming, and population control were so limited. If they showed up at the door, tried to convince you, and were unsuccessful, then the REAL measures begin.

They have to take the political route and also DENY you the political route. You aren't allowed in because you are a hate monger. The proof isn't your actions but lack of agreement with their stated aim. Then the controls include everything carbon based for global warming which btw, means all things that give life or energy on the planet. For population control it is of course about limiting and controlling the future and the ability to procreate.

I'll take the religious nutcases any day of the week.

If you are having to ASK my religious views, that shows exactly how often I've attempted to proselytize with them, use them to declare my moral superiority over or control you with them. That means it is zero or close to it.

I would argue that if you want rational people to respect your viewpoints, then those views must be accompanied by proof, or at the very least, supporting evidence. As it is... those who claim a god exists are just making stuff up... there is NO REASON to accept a god as anything other than delusional. Such delusional beliefs touted as fact would cause rational people to doubt other beliefs you may hold as well, whether they relate to politics, society, or just overall sanity.

While I disagree with much of the "global warming" crowd, at least they bring evidence to the table to support their claims... however weak and circumstantial it is.

Do you believe that the Rapture is a possibility, though?

Two points, PROOF has a very different meaning depending upon the discipline. You don't scientifically prove someone is guilty of a crime. If ten people testified that a man committed a crime, you'd vote guilty. If ten people testify to the existence of God, you'd call them ten nutcases.

So one of the issues is that someone declares that the only proof they will accept for God is scientific proof, but that isn't the type of proof you often use many in human endeavors. It is what you use to study very specific fields. The flip side of this is they will declare that science cannot be used to prove existence of God because by definition, science excludes the possibility of God (aka supernatural or outside of nature).

So many rational people can easily say, that you can't deal with a person who declares that you must use a process to prove something that doesn't apply to it and by their own definition, excludes it.

Worse still, when you take their own standard and apply it to these folks, they sort of flip their lid. Take for example gravity which can be measured and experienced, but isn't understood completely as a force. If someone comes to you and say many people experience God. They see proof of God measured by the number of people that claim this experience. They say a preponderance of the evidence both in polls, historical, etc point to existence of God. They don't accept it. Take the same standard though and apply it to gravity and they will. Then ask them where gravity comes from and well.... it gets messy.

Now do such things point to only a Christian God or the Bible as absolute truth or anything like that? No, not at all. Yet you say how do you get something from nothing, aka how does the universe begin, etc. and there are very sound and rational cosmological arguments there.

To not believe it is a possibility, I would have to prove it is an impossibility.

Can you prove it is an impossibility?

You've asked a lot of questions. Do you believe humans will cause their own mass extinction? Is it a possibility?

trumptman, do you believe in the Christian doctrine of the Rapture or not?

I think it's pretty likely, actually, yeah, as you probably know, since I've argued that in the climate change threads pretty clearly. Or I hope I have.

Now answer my question, please.

Do you believe in the Christian doctrine of the Rapture or not?

I do not believe end times are imminent be it from Rapture, global warming, overpopulation, or a giant asteroid.

What part of this did you not get?

You're not answering the question.

You can believe in the Rapture and not believe it's imminent.

So you're not answering the question. As everyone can see.

Do you believe in the Christian doctrine of the Rapture or not?

Just answer the question.

Actually you are changing the question.


I've answered all of these ever changing questions. If you don't like the answer, then figure out the right question and stop lashing out at people for your own limitations.


Saying you can't disqualify something is not the same thing as saying you believe in it. Can you state that it is an impossibility that all life on Earth will be ended by a meteor hitting our moon and shifting it's orbit in such a manner that it crashes back into Earth? You can't state it is an impossibility, but that doesn't mean you BELIEVE it is imminent or that you believe it going to be what happens?


No, based on what is shown above, it's pretty clear you are trying to be abusive, odd and conflate multiple issues with multiple questions.


I said I do not believe it imminent. Can I prove it an impossibility? As an honest person, no I cannot. However unlike you, I won't make that logical leap and declare that just because someone declares they can't prove something is impossible, that it is now ipso facto, their "belief."

As everyone can also see, you're now being hypocritical by refusing to answer any questions put to you.

trumptman, why will you not simply answer the question "Do you believe in the Christian doctrine of the Rapture?"

It is a very simple question.

Why will you not answer it?

NoahJ will answer it.

He will say, in this thread about the Rapture, "I believe that the Rapture is coming one day."

You, trumptman, won't say what you believe. Will it come one day? Or not.

Why won't you simply answer the question. Like NoahJ would. In this thread about the Rapture.

I have answered it. I've said I can't state it is impossible but I do not believe it eminent.

It is the exact same answer you'd give for pretty much any question that alters or ends the entire course of humankind.

It isn't the same thing. As you know perfectly well.

An asteroid. Given the long history of our planet, an asteroid almost certainly will eventually wipe out almost everything on the planet. Whatever you think or know about astronomy.

The Rapture. This is exclusively a problem for Christians.

So. You believe in the Rapture then. All right.

Do you believe that the world is older than 6,000 years, trumptman?

Ah, fuck it, let's cut to the chase.

You and NoahJ joined this forum within 24 hours of each other ten years ago, and you post within minutes of the other logging out.

Have you got two accounts under two different names?

Actually it is the same thing and that is the point.


So you believe that all life on this planet will be wiped out and you believe that because this hasn't happened for millions of years that it is eminent. What makes you believe this? Prove it scientifically. Show you aren't a kook.


No if there is an event that alters or ends life on this planet and humankind in general it will certainly be a problem for everyone including those who aren't Christians.


I guess you feel it proper to alter the words and beliefs of others to justify your hatred and abuse of them.


Yes.


No I don't but you are showing that you are indeed a very paranoid and disturbed individual who lashes out at and abuses others to chase the shadows in your mind.