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May 21st. Still here. - Page 2

post #41 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

It was so obviously sarcasm. This thread needed some levity.

I agree. I think we have to be able to laugh or....

or......



or........ LOL!

Boys,, I have enjoyed your company tonight but I must rapture myself to bed. So I can then rapture myself to Church in the morning.

May all of you (I consider you all my friends) be richly Blessed!

Goodnight guys. No fear.. I will return.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #42 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Consider the source of Camping's radio station......

Need I say more. False teaching is actually warned about in the Bible.

I care not what men and councils of men think most especially if they are false teachers. I care what the God of the Universe thinks.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Fellows

And how exactly are you privy to what the God of the Universe thinks?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #43 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And how exactly are you privy to what the God of the Universe thinks?

I thought I was getting to bed.. But you ask a great question.

Much prayer, much reading of the Bible and much seeking.

Seek first the Kingdom. If you do you will be amazed at what is revealed.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #44 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

In regard to number 2. could you provide me with specific examples of what you mean?

What prediction was falsified?

These people analyzed, interpreted, opined and speculated about things they read in the Bible, and came to a conclusion that is not stated specifically anywhere in the text. Just like other 'Christians' did with abortion... homosexuality... eating shellfish... pork...
post #45 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Let me answer your points / question with this:

To look at Jesus as an eschatological apocalyptic would be to consider him as someone who believed in a rapidly approaching end of the physical world when the kingdom of God would be fulfilled on earth. If Jesus is regarded as a sapiential apocalyptic, then it means he was not expecting a physical end of the world, but hoped that those around him would change how they lived, thus creating a destruction of the world's morals and ushering in a new way to go about life. Also, it must be remembered that the question up for debate is not if Jesus referred to the end of the world, because it's obvious he did on numerous occasions, but it's whether or not he meant what he said to be taken literally (eschatologically) or figuratively (sapientially).

To understand the reason why Jesus used apocalyptic dialogue, one must first understand Jesus' mindset and ideas he had about the Roman civilization. Jesus claimed he was sent from God to help people live a way conforming to the kingdom of God.


I hope this helps explain my questioning of your claims.

It is good to see you around BRussell!

Fellows

It's adorable that you believe through all this that Jesus wa being figurative, yet all the things in the Old Testament... Creation of the world, Adam and Eve, Jonah and the whale, the animals went in two by two HURRAH!!!... That was all REAL!
post #46 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's adorable that you believe through all this that Jesus wa being figurative, yet all the things in the Old Testament... Creation of the world, Adam and Eve, Jonah and the whale, the animals went in two by two HURRAH!!!... That was all REAL!

The problem is not that I believe some things in history are literal and some things taught by the greatest teacher ever to teach were allegorical.

The problem seems to be that you don't like that I acknowledge the teachings of the Bible the way I do.

That is ok but it is not my problem.

I am not unsettled with my understanding of my faith. In fact I am blessed to continue have understanding in my life expand.

Nice observation tonton but I can assure you that I am not moved by those comments. I have much larger concepts to behold then to be impressed by a statement that may "appear to be wise" but is really foolish.

I am not knocking you.. I quite like you personally. I am just saying. If you thought that was a gotcha moment. I hate to tell you but it is anything but.

Peace bro.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #47 of 338
Thread Starter 
Cults sure do build up those defenses.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #48 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

...the joke...Get it, joking

'Twas all a big joke, folks. We never believed that the rapture was going to happen today. That would be ridiculous! Ha ha ha. So funny!

Wait, it's past 6 pm on the 21st, right? Oh, ok, just checking. Yes, it was big joke!!

*poker face*
post #49 of 338
Well, it seems that

NoahJ
Fellowship
Frank777
Trumptman

have clearly not been raptured, despite devoting their souls to the Dionysis/Osiris/Jesus mythology.

Im not sure why I was selected for the rapture, maybe its because im not full of shit - but its pretty pleasant here at the moment, there are vast mountains and fjords where whales dance with dolphins, and im riding on the back of a lion to a sunny golden sandy shore, where there are scantily clad virgins rubbing their Mary's anticipating the arrival of my Jesus.

Too bad, I guess all your fundie anger and psychopathic godly destruction wasn't the truth afterall.

Where is MJ / dmz. I wonder if he's been aptured too? I know he was waiting for it.
post #50 of 338
It is said the "Last Judgement" is when "Christ" comes. A non-literal interpretation is that one achieves enlightenment in this world.

"Last Judgement" means you are no longer judging, capable of forgiveness, and know that you are forever blessed and forever loved by the Divine. It's not God judging you whether you go to heaven or hell, it is you recognising that there is no such thing... "Earth" is simply a realm we have in our mind, an illusion that serves temporarily before we recognise our true purpose and role in Creation.

"Christ" is as an example by Jesus, the "arrival of Christ" is a sentient human recognising and transcending common aspects of humanness and the body.

I do not want to directly quote or link to the book which forms this "New Age" concept, since it is quite risky mentally for someone to read it directly without going through the text of the book and then several chapters of the "practice workbook".

Just providing something I believe in.

Of course, there will be those that say this is fantasy, New Age gibberish, the antichrist, etc.

PS. The Quran has a statement "That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book". Again I think this refers to enlightenment in general.

PPS. When will enlightenment occur? Probably different for each individual. Are there different stages? Probably, while one still understands time and events in a historical, linear fashion. Is it still possible there will be a massive earth-destroying event? Possible, it could be big, it could be small, it is not for us to predict or fear. Is enlightenment a race to a finish line? Probably not, it is the start of a yet bigger journey.
post #51 of 338
I do feel some "shift" has occurred though, at least in terms of global consciousness. While May 21, 2011 may not have any specific-rapture-event the fact that globally people are thinking about it means that we are all finding some meaning in it.

Personally it reaffirms my non-literal interpretation of religious concepts, and I'm glad to see people are at least thinking, eg. on Twitter, what would happen if the world ended tomorrow... What would you do? Even if just "for fun", being prepared for what's next, whenever it happens, is an existential thought worth spending a little time on.
post #52 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Let me answer your points / question with this:

To look at Jesus as an eschatological apocalyptic would be to consider him as someone who believed in a rapidly approaching end of the physical world when the kingdom of God would be fulfilled on earth. If Jesus is regarded as a sapiential apocalyptic, then it means he was not expecting a physical end of the world, but hoped that those around him would change how they lived, thus creating a destruction of the world's morals and ushering in a new way to go about life. Also, it must be remembered that the question up for debate is not if Jesus referred to the end of the world, because it's obvious he did on numerous occasions, but it's whether or not he meant what he said to be taken literally (eschatologically) or figuratively (sapientially).

To understand the reason why Jesus used apocalyptic dialogue, one must first understand Jesus' mindset and ideas he had about the Roman civilization. Jesus claimed he was sent from God to help people live a way conforming to the kingdom of God.


I hope this helps explain my questioning of your claims.

It is good to see you around BRussell!

Fellows

I like your view of Jesus here. I wonder how far you're willing to take this view of religion? I think many more people like me would be Christian if it meant that we respect a great humanist who was crushed by an oppressive government. All the other stuff is a real deal-breaker.

I also wonder if this is the type of modern reinterpretation of Jesus to which I referred. It sounds good to the modern ear, but it may not reflect the actual Jesus. And maybe that doesn't even matter.
post #53 of 338
Thread Starter 
There's nothing wrong with the humanist message. In fact, I'd venture that a higher percentage of atheists than the evangelicals actually aspire to live by that humanist message. There's just no need to hide it in fairy tales anymore.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #54 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's nothing wrong with the humanist message. In fact, I'd venture that a higher percentage of atheists than the evangelicals actually aspire to live by that humanist message. There's just no need to hide it in fairy tales anymore.

Yeah I agree.

On a different topic, if anyone is interested the CDC has a page on what to do in case of a zombie apocalypse. Yes, they actually do.
post #55 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But you and Fellows have the REAL truth. Rapture will happen...it'll just...

SNEAK UP ON YOU BOO GOTCHA JESUS HAS YOUR NOSE HE'S GOT IT!

Stupid beliefs are stupid.

Stupid beliefs are stupid and one of those beliefs are that a benevolent government will love you, care for you, and fix your life for you no matter how bad you screw up.

One of my favorite classes in college and the only 'A' in the class that semester in it was received by me was "From Christianity to Marxism."

If you think it is stupid to believe a big imaginary God in the sky will answer all your prayers, solve all your problems and make you feel better about your day, it is twice as stupid to believe that a regular man in a state house will do the same things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

This reminds me of a discussion on Camping's radio station I tuned into one day last year. A panel was discussing homeschooling, urging children not to be sent to high school who may attempt to witness to the heathens. The panel said high school kids are too young to have their faith survive the influence of a public school education. It was important to shelter them until they could grow strongly enough in the word of "god" so as to weather any heathen arguments thrown at them.

They literally were urging parents to lock their children away from the rest of society until these kids have been thoroughly brainwashed as to reject all reason in the future.

Classic psychological tactics are used to indoctrinate these helpless youths. Words can't describe just how disgusting that is. Christianity is nothing more than a cult that gets widespread acceptance. It's still a fucking cult. It's still a terrible thing to inflict upon the young.

You don't believe there is a single belief or view that children must be sheltered from until they are older?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

These people analyzed, interpreted, opined and speculated about things they read in the Bible, and came to a conclusion that is not stated specifically anywhere in the text. Just like other 'Christians' did with abortion... homosexuality... eating shellfish... pork...

You make it sound like humans don't do this outside of religion as well. People are people no matter the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

Well, it seems that

NoahJ
Fellowship
Frank777
Trumptman

have clearly not been raptured, despite devoting their souls to the Dionysis/Osiris/Jesus mythology.

Im not sure why I was selected for the rapture, maybe its because im not full of shit - but its pretty pleasant here at the moment, there are vast mountains and fjords where whales dance with dolphins, and im riding on the back of a lion to a sunny golden sandy shore, where there are scantily clad virgins rubbing their Mary's anticipating the arrival of my Jesus.

Too bad, I guess all your fundie anger and psychopathic godly destruction wasn't the truth afterall.

Where is MJ / dmz. I wonder if he's been aptured too? I know he was waiting for it.

I got a special one day reprieve so I could stick around and celebrate my birthday.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #56 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I like your view of Jesus here. I wonder how far you're willing to take this view of religion? I think many more people like me would be Christian if it meant that we respect a great humanist who was crushed by an oppressive government. All the other stuff is a real deal-breaker.

I also wonder if this is the type of modern reinterpretation of Jesus to which I referred. It sounds good to the modern ear, but it may not reflect the actual Jesus. And maybe that doesn't even matter.

Sadly most mainstream Christian/Catholic leaders would simply label this as a "New Age"/ Deepak-Chopra-esque revisionist view of Jesus.

I've been through Christian schools and quite a few church and chapel sessions in and out of school. Intrinsic to Christian belief is Jesus as a diety, God in a different form, or literally the Son Of God. I like Fellows' explanation but as BRussell says, the other stuff is a real dealbreaker. From what I understand.

I think Jesus could be an enlightened individual, a space-traveller, an alien, or many more. What's relevant to me spiritually is the path of Christ (forgiveness, etc)... For example, consider Christ as a concept not necessarily just a person.

But like I said my spiritual view is framed by some very interesting books (not really the Bible) and lots of self-discovery, so I don't see the relevance of delving deep into the Bible unless I am "guided" to it... As such I cannot comment too much more on what the Bible claims Jesus is or isn't.
post #57 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I think many more people like me would be Christian if it meant that we respect a great humanist who was crushed by an oppressive government.



(I have to say the site where I took the pic from is a little... interesting [though they did not create the image, it's just a meme])
post #58 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

Well, it seems that

NoahJ
Fellowship
Frank777
Trumptman

have clearly not been raptured, despite devoting their souls to the Dionysis/Osiris/Jesus mythology.

Im not sure why I was selected for the rapture, maybe its because im not full of shit - but its pretty pleasant here at the moment, there are vast mountains and fjords where whales dance with dolphins, and im riding on the back of a lion to a sunny golden sandy shore, where there are scantily clad virgins rubbing their Mary's anticipating the arrival of my Jesus.

Too bad, I guess all your fundie anger and psychopathic godly destruction wasn't the truth afterall.

Where is MJ / dmz. I wonder if he's been aptured too? I know he was waiting for it.

Really? Raptured and you still make typos and errors in your posts? I thought that heaven would be better than that and your imperfections would be erased. Did you take the red pill, or the blue one before this "rapture"?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #59 of 338
Thread Starter 
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Oops. Seems that everyone in that generation is dead. And the world didn't end. Sounds like another Camping-esque prediction that yet again didn't come to fruition. Except, this is in your "infallible" little black book. This is your "word of god."

Give it up already. Grow up.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #60 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Give it up already. Grow up.

You, uh, started the thread. And likely many more on the subject in the past.

Seems that if you 'give it up', there'd be far less to give up.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #61 of 338
Thread Starter 
Ah yes, if the non-believers in the US stay silent that will clearly help things.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #62 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Oops. Seems that everyone in that generation is dead. And the world didn't end. Sounds like another Camping-esque prediction that yet again didn't come to fruition. Except, this is in your "infallible" little black book. This is your "word of god."

Give it up already. Grow up.

That is actually a very good question. My answer is to look within the context of the passage:

*29 He told them this parable: Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

***32 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

I have heard it theorized that the generation he is speaking of is the first generation of the renewed Israel. This is what is thought to represent when the "fig tree blossoms". At least by some. I have actually not gone very in-depth on this particular passage to be honest so I don't have much else to add to this question as it stands.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #63 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ah yes, if the non-believers in the US stay silent that will clearly help things.

But if the believers stay silent surely that will solve everything right?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #64 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I like your view of Jesus here. I wonder how far you're willing to take this view of religion? I think many more people like me would be Christian if it meant that we respect a great humanist who was crushed by an oppressive government. All the other stuff is a real deal-breaker.

I also wonder if this is the type of modern reinterpretation of Jesus to which I referred. It sounds good to the modern ear, but it may not reflect the actual Jesus. And maybe that doesn't even matter.

You have to understand where I am coming from. I actually do believe Jesus is Lord and at the right hand of the Father. I believe he is who he said he is and did what the authors of the Bible said he did. Feed the multitudes, water into wine, walk on water, heal the sick and rise from the dead.

As far as taking everything literal when Jesus is teaching I think that is a mistake. Jesus took things to a higher level. For example watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl9ds3W7HQ0&feature

Fellows


To address what you said about if it is about the modern ear and such.. I strongly disagree. Jesus taught on a higher level to his contemporaries back in the day. His way of communicating is very striking and profound it's just that for what ever reason some decide to reduce Jesus in their minds. It is not about any particular fad in representing Jesus into something that he really is not.

You say all the other stuff is a deal breaker? Are you referring to the miracles? Please identify for me what you are referring to.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #65 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Oops. Seems that everyone in that generation is dead. And the world didn't end. Sounds like another Camping-esque prediction that yet again didn't come to fruition. Except, this is in your "infallible" little black book. This is your "word of god."

Give it up already. Grow up.

I think that it is clear that you have made the mistake of not taking the time to understand the context of what it is you mock.

I am not trying to shame you for this rather just make mention that you may find truth.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #66 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I think that it is clear that you have made the mistake of not taking the time to understand the context of what it is you mock.

I am not trying to shame you for this rather just make mention that you may find truth.

Fellows

No, I've studied the context. The arguments that Jesus didn't mean a literal generation are weak.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #67 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

You have to understand where I am coming from. I actually do believe Jesus is Lord and at the right hand of the Father. I believe he is who he said he is and did what the authors of the Bible said he did. Feed the multitudes, water into wine, walk on water, heal the sick and rise from the dead.

As far as taking everything literal when Jesus is teaching I think that is a mistake. Jesus took things to a higher level. For example watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl9ds3W7HQ0&feature

Fellows


To address what you said about if it is about the modern ear and such.. I strongly disagree. Jesus taught on a higher level to his contemporaries back in the day. His way of communicating is very striking and profound it's just that for what ever reason some decide to reduce Jesus in their minds. It is not about any particular fad in representing Jesus into something that he really is not.

You say all the other stuff is a deal breaker? Are you referring to the miracles? Please identify for me what you are referring to.

So you're admitting to picking and choosing what's literal and what isn't. I'd expect more from you, Fellowship. Honestly.

Here's a great article featured in CNN this week, written by a man of faith. He learned to stop praying away the gay.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/0...he-gay/?hpt=C2

Perhaps you can stop praying away the science and realize that there may be more in the Bible that is figurative than what it's convenient for you to admit according to your preset beliefs.
post #68 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So you're admitting to picking and choosing what's literal and what isn't. I'd expect more from you, Fellowship. Honestly.

So you think that all of the Bible and what is within the covers of the Bible has to either be all literal or all parable?

I expected you to be a little more nuanced than that tonton.

I am truly speechless that you are being this unreasonable.

You can't possibly believe that the Bible is either all literal or all parable.

Tell me this is not so.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #69 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Here's a great article featured in CNN this week, written by a man of faith. He learned to stop praying away the gay.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/0...he-gay/?hpt=C2

Perhaps you can stop praying away the science and realize that there may be more in the Bible that is figurative than what it's convenient for you to admit according to your preset beliefs.

tonton you are the bigot not me. You are the Godphobe. You are the liberal fundamentalist.

You see I have no problem with Gay people and you dig up some piece which you must think will tarnish my love for Jesus. You are the one who wants to shove evolution down peoples throats even though it is not scientific. So shame on you tonton.

May you learn from your mistakes and learn not to be so bigoted.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #70 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

So you think that all of the Bible and what is within the covers of the Bible has to either be all literal or all parable?

I expected you to be a little more nuanced than that tonton.

I am truly speechless that you are being this unreasonable.

You can't possibly believe that the Bible is either all literal or all parable.

Tell me this is not so.

Fellows

The problem is the Bible does not state what is parable and what is literal. Furthermore, it is the self-proclaimed word of god. First, if an all powerful god really wanted its message out there, one would think it would do so in a bit less confusing manner than the self-contradictory and "part-parable/part-literal but won't discern one from the other" manner it does.

So, that leaves the interpretation up to the followers, then doesn't it? And the followers decide what conveniently fits into their worldviews and espouse the literal and parable selections as the highest truth there is.

But where's the support for your position? Set aside the circular logic problems that the Bible inherently has, how do you actually support the idea of what is literal truth and what is parable? Seems to me all you have is "some guy told me" or "because I know." That's not really support at all.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #71 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

tonton you are the bigot not me. You are the Godphobe. You are the liberal fundamentalist.

You see I have no problem with Gay people and you dig up some piece which you must think will tarnish my love for Jesus. You are the one who wants to shove evolution down peoples throats even though it is not scientific. So shame on you tonton.

May you learn from your mistakes and learn not to be so bigoted.

Fellows

Did you read up on endogenous retroviruses like I suggested? Evolution is plenty scientific. You just have an agenda and confirmation bias to ignore the mountains of evidence for evolution based on what a few quacks sharing similar agendas say.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #72 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

You have to understand where I am coming from. I actually do believe Jesus is Lord and at the right hand of the Father. I believe he is who he said he is and did what the authors of the Bible said he did. Feed the multitudes, water into wine, walk on water, heal the sick and rise from the dead.

As far as taking everything literal when Jesus is teaching I think that is a mistake. Jesus took things to a higher level. For example watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl9ds3W7HQ0&feature

Fellows


To address what you said about if it is about the modern ear and such.. I strongly disagree. Jesus taught on a higher level to his contemporaries back in the day. His way of communicating is very striking and profound it's just that for what ever reason some decide to reduce Jesus in their minds. It is not about any particular fad in representing Jesus into something that he really is not.

You say all the other stuff is a deal breaker? Are you referring to the miracles? Please identify for me what you are referring to.

Yes it's impossible to take Jesus' sayings from the Bible literally, because he spoke in metaphor so often. Was he talking about a fig tree - a literal tree? Of course not. His statements about how to understand the kingdom of god are quite trippy. I also think he did not refer to himself as the special son of God or the messiah, and any reference to that (e.g., in John) were added in later by others, but that's another story.

The deal breakers are the miracles and the religious doctrine stuff. In fact, I can even understand the miracles like healing the sick because I understand that they were practiced by many people at the time. They were kind of like doctors. But I think it's clear that the virgin birth - and being born in Bethlehem rather than Nazareth - was made up later by others, and so was the messiah status - he very clearly did not fit the Jewish messiah, who was supposed to be a great king and military leader. Those are the "deal breakers" for me. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just answering your question.
post #73 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

So you think that all of the Bible and what is within the covers of the Bible has to either be all literal or all parable?

Of course not, and there's no way you could logically deduct that from what I wrote.

What I'm saying, is that there are parts of the Bible that are literal and parts that are parable, allegory, metaphorical, etc.

What I'm saying is that you can't claim that you know exactly which passages are historical fact and which are not. If you claim that you can, I'm calling you out on that. How do you know?

Quote:
Much prayer, much reading of the Bible and much seeking.

Seek first the Kingdom. If you do you will be amazed at what is revealed.

If these methods cannot produce consistent results between different observers, then they cannot be accepted as a revelation of truth. The writer of the article interpreted the bible differently than the Pope, who interpreted the Bible differently than Franklin Graham, who interpreted the Bible differently than Dale of Texas, who interpreted the Bible differently than your fellow parishioners. Fellowship -- are you the only one who really knows the truth? Could there be something you've found in your prayers that might not be truth?

And I am offended that you called me a bigot in that tone. I did not present that article as any comment on your views toward homosexuality. Homosexuality was only the context of the article. The meat of the article was that Faith and Faith alone cannot teach you all that needs to be taught.
post #74 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Did you read up on endogenous retroviruses like I suggested? Evolution is plenty scientific. You just have an agenda and confirmation bias to ignore the mountains of evidence for evolution based on what a few quacks sharing similar agendas say.

Since you are so well versed with the scientific fact of evolution let me ask you a few questions.

What was the cow before it was a cow? What evolved into a cow?

What created the first life form? What was that first life form? And do you believe that this first life form was equipped to replicate or reproduce itself? Because as you know if this first life did not have the "design" to reproduce itself it would have been a one time event.

What is your evidence for all of these answers?

I am waiting.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #75 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


And I am offended that you called me a bigot in that tone.

You implied that I am praying away science.

So be offended all you want. I have told this forum , you , BR whoever is a lover of all things evolution and anti-God that evolution is not science.

You are the bigot when you don't allow free thinking people to counter a failed theory.

You project upon me that I am praying away science. That is a complete lie and you know it tonton.

You are a scumbag but... after all that is what YOU evolved from Jerk off

Now before you get all offended again..

I simply post above in the style of BR, and others who are atheists in hateful. bigoted foul language to see if you notice the ugliness of it.

If you do then welcome to my world. I get this kind of treatment by hateful bigoted people who look down their ugly noses at those who believe in intelligent design.

My message to you is that those who toss around bigoted comments are the ones who need to take some inventory. Reflect and realize that there is no need to be so non-liberal for being a self-described liberal.

Jesus was more liberal than you.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #76 of 338
You are beside yourself, Fellows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

...evolution is not science.

Is ALL that is presented in evolutionary theory not science? All of it?
post #77 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, I've studied the context. The arguments that Jesus didn't mean a literal generation are weak.

Then you are a poor student. Just about everyone, even those who aren't pre-trib, recognizes that Jesus was talking about the "generation that would see the fig-tree come to life" To say otherwise, you have to butcher the text, in both greek and english.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Yes it's impossible to take Jesus' sayings from the Bible literally, because he spoke in metaphor so often. Was he talking about a fig tree - a literal tree? Of course not. His statements about how to understand the kingdom of god are quite trippy. I also think he did not refer to himself as the special son of God or the messiah, and any reference to that (e.g., in John) were added in later by others, but that's another story.

So he was a nice man who was crucified by the Romans for what exactly? Or was that "added in" too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

The deal breakers are the miracles and the religious doctrine stuff. In fact, I can even understand the miracles like healing the sick because I understand that they were practiced by many people at the time. They were kind of like doctors. But I think it's clear that the virgin birth - and being born in Bethlehem rather than Nazareth - was made up later by others, and so was the messiah status - he very clearly did not fit the Jewish messiah, who was supposed to be a great king and military leader. Those are the "deal breakers" for me. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just answering your question.

If first century doctors were capable of miraculously healing the sick, medical care has taken a serious step back since. Maybe that's the rationale behind bringing in Obamacare.

If you read the book of John, you'll see that Jesus' healing of a man born blind drove the religious elite crazy, and is the only time a miracle of Jesus (of which there were thousands) was tried in a religious court. There's a good reason for that. When you discover it, you'll understand why Jesus was recognized for who He was, and why it set him apart from every other miracle worker of His time.

How is it clear that the Virgin Birth was made up by others?

The perception of the Messiah coming first as Isaiah's suffering servant wasn't popular in the first century because everyone wanted a leader that would deliver them from Roman rule. That's entirely different from saying that Jesus doesn't fit the qualifications of the Jewish Messiah. If you ask Jewish authorities about Isaiah's prophecies (the ones that I am referencing), they will affirm that those scriptures are indeed Messianic.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #78 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You are beside yourself, Fellows.

Is ALL that is presented in evolutionary theory not science? All of it?

I would never presume to make such a stupid statement. You are aware of micro-evolution facts surely?
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #79 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Since you are so well versed with the scientific fact of evolution let me ask you a few questions.

What was the cow before it was a cow? What evolved into a cow?

Aurochs

Quote:
What created the first life form?

That question is not in the scope of the science of evolution. Also, you are using the loaded term "created" in your question. A better question would be phrased "How did life first arise on this planet?"

Answer: We don't know. Let's find out. Let's not imagine sky daddy did it because uncertainty is bothersome.

Quote:
What was that first life form? And do you believe that this first life form was equipped to replicate or reproduce itself? Because as you know if this first life did not have the "design" to reproduce itself it would have been a one time event.

All of this stuff is not covered in the field of evolution. The study of the origin of life--how inorganic matter turned into organic matter--is called "abiogenesis." Do not conflate that topic with evolution. They are not the same field of science.

Quote:
What is your evidence for all of these answers?

Fossil record, DNA sequencing, RNA sequencing, et cetera. The works cited on the wikipedia page for Aurochs is very thorough and goes back to scholarly papers. Any encyclopedia or dictionary can tell you the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.

Quote:
I am waiting.

Not very long a wait.

Now, please for fuck's sake go look up endogenous retroviruses.

Here's an introduction: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comd...l#retroviruses

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #80 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I would never presume to make such a stupid statement. You are aware of micro-evolution facts surely?

Creationists & IDers form the only groups of people that make a big fuss in distinguishing micro from macro evolution.

Microevolution + time = macroevolution.

It's that simple.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
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