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People who believe in fairy tales and predictions from them are stupid! - Page 3

post #81 of 226
5/26/11 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

But that's still accusing me of something. Of being a liar in the context of your questions.

Whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Maybe I should have said " Workable answer ".

And maybe you should have asked a better question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So in other words you'd just let what happens happen.

Yes. I know freedom scares the shit out of a lot people (you included it seems). Sorry about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yeah that's a recipe for success.

Like I said they have no foundation for their ideals working in the real world. But thanks for the proof coming out of your own mouth. I couldn't have said it better.

Thanks for sharing your opinions.

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post #82 of 226
5/26/11 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Whatever.




And maybe you should have asked a better question.




Yes. I know freedom scares the shit out of a lot people (you included it seems). Sorry about that.




Thanks for sharing your opinions.

Quote:
And maybe you should have asked a better question.

It was straight forward and to the point. Also it perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the Libertarian Party's reasoning. Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

Quote:
Yes. I know freedom scares the shit out of a lot people (you included it seems). Sorry about that.

There is a difference between " Freedom " and total anarchy. And if that's what you're selling no wonder not many are buying. And before you start here's a definition of anarchy :
Quote:
an·ar·chy
noun \\ˈa-nər-kē, -ˌnär-\\

Definition of ANARCHY



1

a: absence of government b: a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c: a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government


2

a: absence or denial of any authority or established order b: absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy

I really don't see that we've reached that utopian society yet. But if you see an indication let me know.

Quote:
Thanks for sharing your opinions.

That's what forums are all about.
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post #83 of 226
5/26/11 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It was straight forward and to the point.

In some bizzaro world perhaps.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

There is a difference between " Freedom " and total anarchy. And if that's what you're selling no wonder not many are buying.

Is there? Really? Perhaps your deep study and understanding of society and political philosophy will shed some light on this insight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That's what forums are all about.

It's one of the things anyway, yes.

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post #84 of 226
5/26/11 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

There is a difference between " Freedom " and total anarchy. And if that's what you're selling no wonder not many are buying.

"Freedom is a condition in which a person's ownership rights in his own body and his legitimate material property are not invaded, are not aggressed against." - Murray N. Rothbard, For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #85 of 226
5/26/11 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"Freedom is a condition in which a person's ownership rights in his own body and his legitimate material property are not invaded, are not aggressed against." - Murray N. Rothbard, For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto

And as we've seen freedom has to be protected by laws and social ideals. You see we're still a work in progress and half savage. I don't like that any more than you do but it is what it is. Maybe in a few thousand years.......

Ever see an old classic movie called " Forbidden Planet "? Even back then in 1956 they recognized that : " We're all part monster inside so we have laws and religion "
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post #86 of 226
5/26/11 at 5:29pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
And we're going to have to ditch the religion before we have any chance at being able to ditch the laws.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #87 of 226
5/26/11 at 5:54pm
And now we're using movies as arguments. Pure genius. Argumentum a Cinema fallacy?

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post #88 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And now we're using movies as arguments. Pure genius. Argumentum a Cinema fallacy?

If you are trying to say that art doesn't have a lot of useful philosophy in it you're either glossing over everything you see or read or not paying attention.
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post #89 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

If you are trying to say that art doesn't have a lot of useful philosophy in it you're either glossing over everything you see or read or not paying attention.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying your analogy was ridiculous and simplistic...if not stupid.

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post #90 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And we're going to have to ditch the religion before we have any chance at being able to ditch the laws.

Well you got the idea. People can only be trusted just so far to do the right thing. Religion was only a way of presenting morals in a light people of the time could absorb. In time different people twisted it as a means to an end and we have some of the ones we see today. There are some definite good things the bible teaches : Don't kill, don't steal etc. It's just that men have taken that and twisted it into something else. But that's what happens when people are left to their own too much. You just can't rust them to do the right thing always.
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #91 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You just can't rust them to do the right thing always.

Yet you're willing to give your freedoms to a handful of them and trust them to do the right thing always.

It makes absolutely no sense.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #92 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm not saying that. I'm saying your analogy was ridiculous and simplistic...if not stupid.

I'm saying it sure sounds like you can't see the value of philosophy in art. Oh what would the people who read Ayn Rand say?


It was a perfect example of why we can't just let people go to anarchy. The movie may be old and a bit cheesy in places but it's a classic and it's message is unmistakable. In the movie the Krell were these advanced beings who ceased to exist in just one night. They had conquered war and all the ills that we have. They were so advanced they made a machine that could project solid matter by mere thought to anywhere on the planet. For any purpose. But they forgot one thing. They evolved from the mindless primitive ( just like us ) and that remained in their subconscious. So all the secret hate and fear that lurks there ( monsters form the ID ) governed these physical creations as well. So in one night they killed themselves because who could have stopped them?
People basically mean well they just are governed partially by their hormones, genes, basic body chemistry, and about two hundred thousand years of evolutionary development. We're a work in progress. Maybe people can be left with little or no laws or government someday but that's a long way in the future.

You know MJ some of the greatest truths in the world are simple. But I guess you just don't get that. Oh well..........
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post #93 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Yet you're willing to give your freedoms to a handful of them and trust them to do the right thing always.

It makes absolutely no sense.

I didn't say it's perfect but it's better than anarchy.
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post #94 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I didn't say it's perfect but it's better than anarchy.

1) Who is advocating anarchy?

2) How is it better than anarchy?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #95 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

1) Who is advocating anarchy?

2) How is it better than anarchy?

1. MJ it sounds like. Haven't you been reading?

2. I guess you haven't.
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post #96 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

1. MJ it sounds like. Haven't you been reading?

2. I guess you haven't.

Can you quote where MJ is advocating anarchy? I can't seem to find anything indicating he is.

You're speaking in generalities. Can you give specifics as to how your ideal world - in which the tyranny of the majority is acceptable - is better than anarchy?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #97 of 226
5/26/11 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Can you quote where MJ is advocating anarchy? I can't seem to find anything indicating he is.

You're speaking in generalities. Can you give specifics as to how your ideal world - in which the tyranny of the majority is acceptable - is better than anarchy?

It's right here for your viewing pleasure :
Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac
There is a difference between " Freedom " and total anarchy. And if that's what you're selling no wonder not many are buying.

And MJ's reply :

Is there? Really? Perhaps your deep study and understanding of society and political philosophy will shed some light on this insight.

And as far as pointing the why's of my statement I already have been. Clearly you haven't been reading the thread. Oh well.

Cheers!
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post #98 of 226
5/26/11 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Can you give specifics as to how your ideal world.........

Funny I don't remember touting an ideal world.

Perhaps you could show me where I did?
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post #99 of 226
5/26/11 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It's right here for your viewing pleasure :

And as far as pointing the why's of my statement I already have been. Clearly you haven't been reading the thread. Oh well.

Cheers!

He is not advocating anarchy in that statement. He's asking you to elaborate on your statement.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #100 of 226
5/26/11 at 7:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Funny I don't remember touting an ideal world.

Perhaps you could show me where I did?

You said: "freedom has to be protected by laws and social ideals"

I'm asking you to explain - in your view - how that is better than what you perceive to be anarchy.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #101 of 226
5/26/11 at 7:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You said: "freedom has to be protected by laws and social ideals"

I'm asking you to explain - in your view - how that is better than what you perceive to be anarchy.

Sigh. Ideals are what we aspire to ( not the same as an" ideal world ". They don't exist automatically from the get go. It still sounds like you're not reading the thread very closely.

And I don't perceive anything about what he meant. It's there in black and white for you to read. Get real.

It's better because without it a man could want you, your wife, and all you own. If powerful enough he could just come into your house and take those things and there would be no policeman to stop him. No law would protect you and police coverage if it did exist would be worse than it is now because not everybody would pay for it. They'd rather spend the money on something else. So we have taxes to pay for it to make sure that doesn't happen. And even in that kind of society there's corruption because people will be people but at least there's something tp protect you from that just happening. It's better than just the wild west MJ's advocating.

Not if you can't see what I'm getting at you're just being contrarian because you want to help MJ. Come on Jazzy.

Either that or try reading all what we've wrote up until now.
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post #102 of 226
5/26/11 at 8:03pm
jimmac is a hoot!

It's always entertaining and amusing sparring with him. Not challenging in any real way...but definitely entertaining.

Given the typical statist mentality that anything less that the current amount of government would be anarchy, I can see how he thought I was advocating for anarchy.

What's especially humorous is this. Personal income tax accounts for about 49% of the revenue of the federal government. In 2010 the total federal government revenue was about $1.9T (stated in 2005 dollars). To completely eliminate personal income tax would cut that in half and take us back to about what it was in 1978. While that would be huge step backwards...no reasonable person would argue that it was a time of anarchy (no government at all).

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post #103 of 226
5/26/11 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

jimmac is a hoot!

It's always entertaining and amusing sparring with him. Not challenging in any real way...but definitely entertaining.

Given the typical statist mentality that anything less that the current amount of government would be anarchy, I can see how he thought I was advocating for anarchy.

What's especially humorous is this. Personal income tax accounts for about 49% of the revenue of the federal government. In 2010 the total federal government revenue was about $1.9T (stated in 2005 dollars). To completely eliminate personal income tax would cut that in half and take us back to about what it was in 1978. While that would be huge step backwards...no reasonable person would argue that it was a time of anarchy (no government at all).

The hoot would be what would happen if we did that. Now I've completely gutted your premise MJ. Jazzy can't see that you're advocating anarchy even though I quoted you doing so.

Now you can Fein the " aren't you funny jimmac and I'm so superior " thing in a lame attempt to discredit me but I have better things to do with my evening than play with two bad boys who can't even admit when they've been shown how wrong they are.
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post #104 of 226
5/26/11 at 8:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The hoot would be what would happen if we did that. Now I've completely gutted your premise MJ.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Jazzy can't see that you're advocating anarchy even though I quoted you doing so.

That's because he can read and he's not an idiot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Now you can Fein the " aren't you funny jimmac and I'm so superior " thing in a lame attempt to discredit me but I have better things to do with my evening...

If I do...I'll at least spell feign correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

...than play with two bad boys who can't even admit when they've been shown how wrong they are.

We're not wrong because you say we're wrong. Doesn't work that way.

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post #105 of 226
5/26/11 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post






That's because he can read and he's not an idiot.




If I do...I'll at least spell feign correctly.




We're not wrong because you say we're wrong. Doesn't work that way.

Well you can just refuse admit you're wrong ( or your own delusions can keep you from seeing that ) no matter what. That won't make you right or keep you from appearing wrong to others ( voters as well as we've already seen ). Oh! But that's right! You don't care about the majority. Good. Keep that up! We'll being reading about the Libertarian Party in the political dustbins of history someday. And MJ sinking to spelling is telling. When you stoop to that it means you really don't have a counter argument.

Quote:
If I do...I'll at least spell feign correctly.

You can spell correctly all you like. For example can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence ?
Quote:
Given the typical statist mentality that anything less that the current amount of government would be anarchy, I can see how he thought I was advocating for anarchy.

It really doesn't have any bearing on the subject matter at hand.
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post #106 of 226
5/26/11 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well you can just refuse admit you're wrong ( or your own delusions can keep you from seeing that ) no matter what. That won't make you right or keep you from appearing wrong to others ( voters as well as we've already seen ).

I know.

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post #107 of 226
5/26/11 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I know.

I'm glad at least you see that about the Libertarians.

Hey! You forgot to quote the " Dustbin of history " part. I thought that quite good!
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post #108 of 226
5/26/11 at 9:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'm glad at least you see that about the Libertarians.

Hey! You forgot to quote the " Dustbin of history " part. I thought that quite good!

Huh?

Interesting. Entertaining. Humorous.

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post #109 of 226
5/26/11 at 10:08pm
Seems some people never change. Jimmac, I thought you were through with here? One last hurrah?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #110 of 226
5/26/11 at 10:58pm
there's a perfectly good explanation. Jazzguru, Jimmac and e# all disappeared at about the same time and came back at the same time. They're all really just one person suffering from multiple personality disorder!
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post #111 of 226
5/27/11 at 1:21am
It's International Argue Like MJ1970 Day!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

jimmac is a hoot!

Thanks for your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Given the typical statist mentality that anything less that the current amount of government would be anarchy.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What's especially humorous is this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Personal income tax accounts for about 49% of the revenue of the federal government. In 2010 the total federal government revenue was about $1.9T (stated in 2005 dollars). To completely eliminate personal income tax would cut that in half and take us back to about what it was in 1978. While that would be huge step backwards...no reasonable person would argue that it was a time of anarchy (no government at all).

Right. So you want to make government illegal, burn down the White House and execute firemen. Got it.

[/MJ1970]




BRILLIANT! You can just pretend to make a contribution by making supercilious comments that hint at some greater knowledge and don't actually add a damn thing to any exchange of ideas!

I WIN!
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post #112 of 226
5/27/11 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The hoot would be what would happen if we did that. Now I've completely gutted your premise MJ. Jazzy can't see that you're advocating anarchy even though I quoted you doing so.

Now you can Fein the " aren't you funny jimmac and I'm so superior " thing in a lame attempt to discredit me but I have better things to do with my evening than play with two bad boys who can't even admit when they've been shown how wrong they are.

He didn't OFFER a premise. You stated he was advocating anarchy, which clearly was not. You were simply asked the difference between freedom and anarchy, and why one is better than the other.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #113 of 226
5/27/11 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

jimmac is a hoot!

It's always entertaining and amusing sparring with him. Not challenging in any real way...but definitely entertaining.

Given the typical statist mentality that anything less that the current amount of government would be anarchy, I can see how he thought I was advocating for anarchy.

Yes, he's quite entertaining. As you said, it's not challenging, but entertaining. If you ask him to clarify something, he flips out and tells you you're "dodging the question." The best is when you use a term or a phrase, and he throws back out at you a few posts later, pretending it was his. I'll be arguing with him, and I'll post "that's rhetorical nonsense." A few posts or even pages later, he'll post "SDW, that's just retorical [sic] nonense."

I have more of his greatest hits, if you'd like.
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post #114 of 226
5/27/11 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He didn't OFFER a premise. You stated he was advocating anarchy, which clearly was not. You were simply asked the difference between freedom and anarchy, and why one is better than the other.

Well then I guess you can't read either. You guys can try to dodge this all you want. He was equating freedom which he is advocating and anarchy.

And coming from the master of " White is Black " this is a special treat!

I really must have hit a nerve this time folks since they've also resurrected the Libertarianism thread.
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post #115 of 226
5/27/11 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yes, he's quite entertaining. As you said, it's not challenging, but entertaining. If you ask him to clarify something, he flips out and tells you you're "dodging the question." The best is when you use a term or a phrase, and he throws back out at you a few posts later, pretending it was his. I'll be arguing with him, and I'll post "that's rhetorical nonsense." A few posts or even pages later, he'll post "SDW, that's just retorical [sic] nonense."

I have more of his greatest hits, if you'd like.

Remember I have many of yours as well! Shall we take a stroll down memory lane together?
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post #116 of 226
5/27/11 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

It's International Argue Like MJ1970 Day!



Thanks for your opinion.



Thanks for sharing your opinion.







Right. So you want to make government illegal, burn down the White House and execute firemen. Got it.

[/MJ1970]




BRILLIANT! You can just pretend to make a contribution by making supercilious comments that hint at some greater knowledge and don't actually add a damn thing to any exchange of ideas!

I WIN!

I guess he doesn't like " My Opinion "!

Oh well!
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post #117 of 226
5/27/11 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

there's a perfectly good explanation. Jazzguru, Jimmac and e# all disappeared at about the same time and came back at the same time. They're all really just one person suffering from multiple personality disorder!

m,gmgmhmfdp epfihps! Help me must be Liberal! Must be conservative!

Must be Libertarian! I'm in between! p;ksjdp;lksjf[ sdoij[dsolifj[lijf [silfj I've gone quad!
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post #118 of 226
5/27/11 at 7:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

there's a perfectly good explanation. Jazzguru, Jimmac and e# all disappeared at about the same time and came back at the same time. They're all really just one person suffering from multiple personality disorder!

That would be a serious split!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #119 of 226
5/27/11 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Seems some people never change. Jimmac, I thought you were through with here? One last hurrah?

Sorry. Occasionally this place still is my guilty pleasure.

But I'm still waning.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #120 of 226
5/27/11 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Remember I have many of yours as well! Shall we take a stroll down memory lane together?

Yes just like that. Exactly what he was talking about.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
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