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Purported 'iPhone 5' part again shows separated camera lens and flash

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Another alleged fifth-generation iPhone part shows once again that the rear-facing camera flash could be placed farther from the lens.

The latest picture was discovered by Apple.pro (via Google Translate), and shows a back panel allegedly for Apple's fifth-generation iPhone. The purported part shows a hole as usual on the left side for the camera lens, while the space for the accompanying LED flash has been moved to the far right side of the device.

Moving the lens and LED flash farther apart could allow for better quality pictures on a next-generation iPhone. Such a change can reduce the red eye effect that sometimes appears in photos.

The site obtained the photo from a microblog, and noted that they could not verify the authenticity of the picture. However, the photo supports information from a previously discovered third-party case, as well as alleged "iPhone 5" components.

Earlier this month, the same site shared photos claiming to show a fifth-generation iPhone rear camera, without an attached LED flash. That would be a change from the iPhone 4, with which the LED flash and camera lens are one component.

The alleged parts were revealed about the same time a third-party case was discovered online. That case showed the camera flash and lens with new positioning, as well as a slightly larger edge-to-edge display.



Though Apple.pro is not the direct source of the latest alleged component, the site has been the source of numerous Apple-related hardware leaks in the past, including the tiny touchscreen that last year became the centerpiece of the new iPod nano.

In February the site claimed that Apple was evaluating three new smartphone prototypes for potential release in the future. One of those models was said to include a physical slide-out keyboard, though it was not known whether the company actually intended to bring such a product to market, and rumors of such a device have not persisted.
post #2 of 24
Does moving the flash further apart reduce red-eye, as claimed in the article? If so how come point-and-shoots have red-eye issues?
post #3 of 24
What is this, like the 4th post on this issue? Is it really that important? Slow news day maybe?
post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Does moving the flash further apart reduce red-eye, as claimed in the article? If so how come point-and-shoots have red-eye issues?

Moving the flash helps red eye, but does not eliminate it. Apple probably moved the flash to keep the light that reflects off near surfaces of the camera and goes into the lens from affecting the pictures. Eyes get red by reflecting the light straight back to the camera lens, the further the lens is away from the light source the less light gets bounced straight back. You really need to be 8 or 9 inches for it to be real effective to move the light source. The other method used is to pre-flash the subject so that the pupil will close down some, this reduces the amount of light that enters and leaves the eye.
post #5 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Does moving the flash further apart reduce red-eye, as claimed in the article? If so how come point-and-shoots have red-eye issues?

Moving the flash two inches from the lens does very little to reduce red-eye, which is why typical point-and-shoot cameras still exhibit this shortcoming.

What this may do is improve picture quality by reducing lens flare from an adjacent flash.
post #6 of 24
As launch date for iphone 5 draws closer, I guess the speculations about specifications will soon reach fever pitch. The re-spacing of the camera flash further from the lens is worthwhile, but in the whole scheme of things is the least of Apple's problems.

I will be very disappointed if iPhone 5 is simply a speed bump of the existing design. Attractive as the iPhone 4 is, it needs major work if Apple is to stay on top:

1. The antenna issue is real for a lot of users; worse still, even for those for whom it is not, it introduces an element of uncertainty: is my iPhone as good as it could or should be? Is it worth what I paid for it?

2. Equally annoying, the glass on the front and back is extremely prone to breakages should you drop it. This was not the case with the iPhone 3GS. For me the physical design of the iPhone was a step backwards versus the previous one. Sure the iPhone 4 is more capable, but it is less robust.

3. I don't know how many times it's been said, but most of us, don't want a thinner phone. We want longer battery life. So instead of making it thinner again, just give us a bigger battery.

4. I also want a larger screen - not a whole lot larger but 4"-5" would be perfect. (I'm a grumpy middle-aged man, and my eyes are just not as good as they used to be - I struggle to read text on the iPhone at times). The software also needs updating so that larger text sizes can easily be selected.

5. The flimsy silent mode switch needs beefing-up.

6. Put a protective steel bezel around the screen.

7. Replace glass back with aluminium or plastic.

8. Ensure phone can be held securely in the hand - iPhone 4 is too slippery. The rear glass panel means it literally slides off flat surfaces that aren't 100% level.

It's all very well saying buy a plastic case, but when you're spending $400 on a phone, you shouldn't need to have to buy anything else. If it is necessary, then the product designers haven't done their job properly.

We need a redesigned iPhone 5 not just to correct these problems but to show that they've been corrected.

I won't be upgrading to iPhone 5 unless it is a major redesign, which is a surprise for me. I've bought every previous version. Maybe I'm just getting tired of annual upgrades for the sake of it.
post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailpipe View Post

As launch date for iphone 5 draws closer, I guess the speculations about specifications will soon reach fever pitch. The re-spacing of the camera flash further from the lens is worthwhile, but in the whole scheme of things is the least of Apple's problems.

I will be very disappointed if iPhone 5 is simply a speed bump of the existing design. Attractive as the iPhone 4 is, it needs major work if Apple is to stay on top:

1. The antenna issue is real for a lot of users; worse still, even for those for whom it is not, it introduces an element of uncertainty: is my iPhone as good as it could or should be? Is it worth what I paid for it?

2. Equally annoying, the glass on the front and back is extremely prone to breakages should you drop it. This was not the case with the iPhone 3GS. For me the physical design of the iPhone was a step backwards versus the previous one. Sure the iPhone 4 is more capable, but it is less robust.

3. I don't know how many times it's been said, but most of us, don't want a thinner phone. We want longer battery life. So instead of making it thinner again, just give us a bigger battery.

4. I also want a larger screen - not a whole lot larger but 4"-5" would be perfect. (I'm a grumpy middle-aged man, and my eyes are just not as good as they used to be - I struggle to read text on the iPhone at times). The software also needs updating so that larger text sizes can easily be selected.

5. The flimsy silent mode switch needs beefing-up.

6. Put a protective steel bezel around the screen.

7. Replace glass back with aluminium or plastic.

8. Ensure phone can be held securely in the hand - iPhone 4 is too slippery. The rear glass panel means it literally slides off flat surfaces that aren't 100% level.

It's all very well saying buy a plastic case, but when you're spending $400 on a phone, you shouldn't need to have to buy anything else. If it is necessary, then the product designers haven't done their job properly.

We need a redesigned iPhone 5 not just to correct these problems but to show that they've been corrected.

I won't be upgrading to iPhone 5 unless it is a major redesign, which is a surprise for me. I've bought every previous version. Maybe I'm just getting tired of annual upgrades for the sake of it.

VERY WELL SAID!!!!! THANK YOU........... (BTW, I tried an iPhone 4, I had to return it due to reception issues)

SOMEBODY at Apple please read this gentleman's post!!!!!!!
post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

Moving the flash two inches from the lens does very little to reduce red-eye, which is why typical point-and-shoot cameras still exhibit this shortcoming.

What this may do is improve picture quality by reducing lens flare from an adjacent flash.

While every little bit of distance will help a bit with the red-eye problem, I was also thinking this may be more related to the rumored light leakage problem, especially with the white iPhone. If light was "leaking" through the glass back from the flash to the lens, more distance would help that, too. After all, red-eye is Camera Design 101. And if moving the flash to the other side of the iPhone made a big difference in red-eye, I'd start to seriously question Apple's camera design expertise for not putting it there in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailpipe View Post

As launch date for iphone 5 draws closer, I guess the speculations about specifications will soon reach fever pitch. The re-spacing of the camera flash further from the lens is worthwhile, but in the whole scheme of things is the least of Apple's problems.

I will be very disappointed if iPhone 5 is simply a speed bump of the existing design. Attractive as the iPhone 4 is, it needs major work if Apple is to stay on top:

1. The antenna issue is real for a lot of users; worse still, even for those for whom it is not, it introduces an element of uncertainty: is my iPhone as good as it could or should be? Is it worth what I paid for it?

2. Equally annoying, the glass on the front and back is extremely prone to breakages should you drop it. This was not the case with the iPhone 3GS. For me the physical design of the iPhone was a step backwards versus the previous one. Sure the iPhone 4 is more capable, but it is less robust.

3. I don't know how many times it's been said, but most of us, don't want a thinner phone. We want longer battery life. So instead of making it thinner again, just give us a bigger battery.

4. I also want a larger screen - not a whole lot larger but 4"-5" would be perfect. (I'm a grumpy middle-aged man, and my eyes are just not as good as they used to be - I struggle to read text on the iPhone at times). The software also needs updating so that larger text sizes can easily be selected.

5. The flimsy silent mode switch needs beefing-up.

6. Put a protective steel bezel around the screen.

7. Replace glass back with aluminium or plastic.

8. Ensure phone can be held securely in the hand - iPhone 4 is too slippery. The rear glass panel means it literally slides off flat surfaces that aren't 100% level.

It's all very well saying buy a plastic case, but when you're spending $400 on a phone, you shouldn't need to have to buy anything else. If it is necessary, then the product designers haven't done their job properly.

We need a redesigned iPhone 5 not just to correct these problems but to show that they've been corrected.

I won't be upgrading to iPhone 5 unless it is a major redesign, which is a surprise for me. I've bought every previous version. Maybe I'm just getting tired of annual upgrades for the sake of it.

I'd agree with everything except a size up to 5". While I would love a screen that size, no way in hell would I carry something that big around with me all the time! 4" is about the limit for me, even if it means squinting a bit. But I'd also love it if they could shave a bit off the length, too. And if that means it has to be a mm or two thicker to fit everything in, so be it! They'd have much more usable internal volume for the same amount of exterior surface area with a shorter, thicker design.

Edit: Plus a thicker design might give them a little extra room to put in additional antennas for both GSM and CDMA if rumors of a "world phone" are true.
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailpipe View Post

As launch date for iphone 5 draws closer, I guess the speculations about specifications will soon reach fever pitch. The re-spacing of the camera flash further from the lens is worthwhile, but in the whole scheme of things is the least of Apple's problems.

I will be very disappointed if iPhone 5 is simply a speed bump of the existing design. Attractive as the iPhone 4 is, it needs major work if Apple is to stay on top:

1. The antenna issue is real for a lot of users; worse still, even for those for whom it is not, it introduces an element of uncertainty: is my iPhone as good as it could or should be? Is it worth what I paid for it?

2. Equally annoying, the glass on the front and back is extremely prone to breakages should you drop it. This was not the case with the iPhone 3GS. For me the physical design of the iPhone was a step backwards versus the previous one. Sure the iPhone 4 is more capable, but it is less robust.

3. I don't know how many times it's been said, but most of us, don't want a thinner phone. We want longer battery life. So instead of making it thinner again, just give us a bigger battery.

4. I also want a larger screen - not a whole lot larger but 4"-5" would be perfect. (I'm a grumpy middle-aged man, and my eyes are just not as good as they used to be - I struggle to read text on the iPhone at times). The software also needs updating so that larger text sizes can easily be selected.

5. The flimsy silent mode switch needs beefing-up.

6. Put a protective steel bezel around the screen.

7. Replace glass back with aluminium or plastic.

8. Ensure phone can be held securely in the hand - iPhone 4 is too slippery. The rear glass panel means it literally slides off flat surfaces that aren't 100% level.

It's all very well saying buy a plastic case, but when you're spending $400 on a phone, you shouldn't need to have to buy anything else. If it is necessary, then the product designers haven't done their job properly.

We need a redesigned iPhone 5 not just to correct these problems but to show that they've been corrected.

I won't be upgrading to iPhone 5 unless it is a major redesign, which is a surprise for me. I've bought every previous version. Maybe I'm just getting tired of annual upgrades for the sake of it.

I can't decide if you are really this weird or if you are just trolling.

The first two points are standard troll stuff. No one has a *real* problem with either, but there are always folks who believe anything they hear I suppose. Likely you think the moon landing was fake as well.

3. seems to be your personal desire, I've never met anyone who wanted a thicker phone nor anyone who had any problems with the iPhone battery life and I've met and talked to a heck of a lot of people about their iPhones over the last few years.

4. is just the latest fashion in Android.

Points 5, 6, and 8 are the same. No one is really clamouring for any of those things and they aren't likely to ever happen.

Finally, point 7 is the same as point 2.

Almost none of the thing you mention are problems for any significant group of people. They mostly exist in the minds of people like yourself who seem to base their beliefs on what they read in the newspaper.

It's fairly certain that none of them are going to happen for the next iPhone nor any iPhone coming soon.
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I can't decide if you are really this weird or if you are just trolling.

The first two points are standard troll stuff. No one has a *real* problem with either, but there are always folks who believe anything they hear I suppose. Likely you think the moon landing was fake as well.

3. seems to be your personal desire, I've never met anyone who wanted a thicker phone nor anyone who had any problems with the iPhone battery life and I've met and talked to a heck of a lot of people about their iPhones over the last few years.

4. is just the latest fashion in Android.

Points 5, 6, and 8 are the same. No one is really clamouring for any of those things and they aren't likely to ever happen.

Finally, point 7 is the same as point 2.

Almost none of the thing you mention are problems for any significant group of people. They mostly exist in the minds of people like yourself who seem to base their beliefs on what they read in the newspaper.

It's fairly certain that none of them are going to happen for the next iPhone nor any iPhone coming soon.

Are you seriously saying this? So basically according to you, no one had an antenna issue with iP4? If I recall correctly, Consumer Reports disagrees. I will grant you that there may not have been millions of users with the issue, but some people did experience it. And I would be interested to see how much more widespread it was if people went without cases.

As for having glass on the back instead of aluminum or plastic, it does increase the breakage factor. Again, it may not have been an overwhelming problem, but it was a problem for some.
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailpipe View Post

3. I don't know how many times it's been said, but most of us, don't want a thinner phone. We want longer battery life. So instead of making it thinner again, just give us a bigger battery.

i find the battery life of the iPhone 4 to be pretty incredible. just remember to plug it in at night and you shouldn't have a problem... heck, even if you forget one night, you'll still likely get through the next day.

if they could keep the current battery life and make the phone thinner, i would buy it!

also... a 5" phone? really? i would go for 3.7" but anything over 4 is ridiculous.
by the way, the screen is the main source of battery drain... if you want better battery life, look at a smaller screen. (though a larger screen could allow for a larger battery...)
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I can't decide if you are really this weird or if you are just trolling.

The first two points are standard troll stuff. No one has a *real* problem with either, but there are always folks who believe anything they hear I suppose. Likely you think the moon landing was fake as well.

3. seems to be your personal desire, I've never met anyone who wanted a thicker phone nor anyone who had any problems with the iPhone battery life and I've met and talked to a heck of a lot of people about their iPhones over the last few years.

4. is just the latest fashion in Android.

Points 5, 6, and 8 are the same. No one is really clamouring for any of those things and they aren't likely to ever happen.

Finally, point 7 is the same as point 2.

Almost none of the thing you mention are problems for any significant group of people. They mostly exist in the minds of people like yourself who seem to base their beliefs on what they read in the newspaper.

It's fairly certain that none of them are going to happen for the next iPhone nor any iPhone coming soon.

And why is your opinion and impressions any more important than Tailpipe's? At least two of us agreed with most of the statements Tailpipe made. Who made you arbitrator of fact?
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

And why is your opinion and impressions any more important than Tailpipe's? At least two of us agreed with most of the statements Tailpipe made. Who made you arbitrator of fact?

THANKS!

I NEVER/EVER believed all that iPhone4/antenna/reception crap UNTIL I got an iPhone4.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

What this may do is improve picture quality by reducing lens flare from an adjacent flash.

That's what I'm thinking. didn't the white iphone 4 get delayed in part because of light coming in from its own flash (which is right next to the camera lens). moving the flash would solve that issue.

course it's also possible that whatever that is not a flash at all. or it could be a part of an old prototype that has been rejected.

Myself I would be more impressed if Apple dug up a 5-8MP sensor that could film 720p or higher video and was so light sensitive that you didn't need a flash at all. Basically my 7D in my iphone. But I don't expect anything like that for at least another couple of years if it ever happens

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailpipe View Post

As launch date for iphone 5 draws closer, I guess the speculations about specifications will soon reach fever pitch. The re-spacing of the camera flash further from the lens is worthwhile, but in the whole scheme of things is the least of Apple's problems.

I will be very disappointed if iPhone 5 is simply a speed bump of the existing design. Attractive as the iPhone 4 is, it needs major work if Apple is to stay on top:

1. The antenna issue is real for a lot of users; worse still, even for those for whom it is not, it introduces an element of uncertainty: is my iPhone as good as it could or should be? Is it worth what I paid for it?

2. Equally annoying, the glass on the front and back is extremely prone to breakages should you drop it. This was not the case with the iPhone 3GS. For me the physical design of the iPhone was a step backwards versus the previous one. Sure the iPhone 4 is more capable, but it is less robust.

3. I don't know how many times it's been said, but most of us, don't want a thinner phone. We want longer battery life. So instead of making it thinner again, just give us a bigger battery.

4. I also want a larger screen - not a whole lot larger but 4"-5" would be perfect. (I'm a grumpy middle-aged man, and my eyes are just not as good as they used to be - I struggle to read text on the iPhone at times). The software also needs updating so that larger text sizes can easily be selected.

5. The flimsy silent mode switch needs beefing-up.

6. Put a protective steel bezel around the screen.

7. Replace glass back with aluminium or plastic.

8. Ensure phone can be held securely in the hand - iPhone 4 is too slippery. The rear glass panel means it literally slides off flat surfaces that aren't 100% level.

It's all very well saying buy a plastic case, but when you're spending $400 on a phone, you shouldn't need to have to buy anything else. If it is necessary, then the product designers haven't done their job properly.

We need a redesigned iPhone 5 not just to correct these problems but to show that they've been corrected.

I won't be upgrading to iPhone 5 unless it is a major redesign, which is a surprise for me. I've bought every previous version. Maybe I'm just getting tired of annual upgrades for the sake of it.

Since most of what you say here is a matter of opinion, I'll register mine: I disagree with you on every point. Every single point.

Thompson
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxhunter101 View Post

THANKS!

I NEVER/EVER believed all that iPhone4/antenna/reception crap UNTIL I got an iPhone4.

Me neither. I held off for several months expecting some kind of software fix. Finally I took the plunge, hoping it was just in people's mind. Then as I walked into my house with my new iPhone 4, I got my first call!.....which failed after about 3 seconds. I've had iPhones since the original. All of them could be used in every nook and cranny of my house. With my iPhone 4, I can only use it upstairs near one window or lying on my bed next to the window. Any movement away from those two spots and the call drops, usually within 5 seconds.
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne View Post

Me neither. I held off for several months expecting some kind of software fix. Finally I took the plunge, hoping it was just in people's mind. Then as I walked into my house with my new iPhone 4, I got my first call!.....which failed after about 3 seconds. I've had iPhones since the original. All of them could be used in every nook and cranny of my house. With my iPhone 4, I can only use it upstairs near one window or lying on my bed next to the window. Any movement away from those two spots and the call drops, usually within 5 seconds.

Either you use a "death grip", or your iPhone 4 is actually defective. Hopefully it's still under warrantee. Turn it in for another one and watch your reception improve.

Thompson
post #18 of 24
Offsetting the camera light does indeed reduce red-eye. As does every photo editing software, and many built-in camera-image processes. You see it in everything. Compact pocket cameras, DSLRs...

But look where it is. On the right, facing the back. Meaning you will need to hold the iP5 with the lens DOWN along its bottom edge when shooting a horizontal flash image. Exactly what most people today don't do.

It's time for Apple to turn the volume buttons into shutter releases. My formula: Make one the decider to shoot a flash right now; the other-a non-flash tripper.

Instant finger-decision to shoot flash or not. Now that would be a very Apple-like feature. Why not, there are two buttons available close together...
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

Either you use a "death grip", or your iPhone 4 is actually defective. Hopefully it's still under warrantee. Turn it in for another one and watch your reception improve.

Thompson

Nope, no death grip. And this is only in my house. If I'm at work or mostly anywhere else the phone works fine. I think it only has this problem in low signal areas, like my house.....except that neither my original iPhone, nor my 3GS had a problem at my house. This is what makes me think it is the design, not the individual phone itself.

I've never returned anything to Apple before, do you really think they'll replace it (I bought it in December) if I take it in and it works perfectly, reception-wise, in the store? (honest question)
post #20 of 24
Some type of people aren't meant to carry an iPhone or anything breakable around. There are names for these type of people.
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieWallieWhiskers View Post

i find the battery life of the iPhone 4 to be pretty incredible. just remember to plug it in at night and you shouldn't have a problem... heck, even if you forget one night, you'll still likely get through the next day.

Better than other smartphones, yes. But incredible? When traveling I charge my phone overnight and I am oftne lucky to be above 10% by 5pm, needing a quick top up if i am heading out for the evening.
Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, coming iPhone 5S, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x1, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod classic...
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Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, coming iPhone 5S, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x1, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod classic...
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post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne View Post

Nope, no death grip. And this is only in my house. If I'm at work or mostly anywhere else the phone works fine. I think it only has this problem in low signal areas, like my house.....except that neither my original iPhone, nor my 3GS had a problem at my house. This is what makes me think it is the design, not the individual phone itself.

I've never returned anything to Apple before, do you really think they'll replace it (I bought it in December) if I take it in and it works perfectly, reception-wise, in the store? (honest question)

I never used a death grip either, most of the time I wasn't even holding the iPhone 4 but it still managed to drop most calls.

The talk had just started about the iPhone 4 antenna/reception/dropped call problems when I got my own iPhone 4. My thoughts were that Apple wouldn't release a phone that has 'that big of a problem'. I WAS WRONG!!! I got tired of people asking me 'What's wrong with your phone?' (after so many calls woud drop). I returned it.

I never had ANY problems with my iPhone 3G or my iPhone 3GS (I'm still using it today).
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

Since most of what you say here is a matter of opinion, I'll register mine: I disagree with you on every point. Every single point.

Thompson

Well, you're entitled to your opinion too.

For the record, and as other posts here attest, the antenna issue is real for some people. Though it is not an issue for me, I could not ignore the weight of evidence that suggests it is a genuine concern. I don't think Apple handled the problem very well and issuing free bumpers without admitting anything or providing any kind of hardware/ software fix left me confused. As I said, it has created a perception well covered by the media that Apple's iPhone isn't as good as it should be. (I understand that the guy at Apple responsible for developing the IPhone 4's antenna was fired, but don't know if this is true.) When you're paying top dollar for a phone, it needs to be bulletproof.

Secondly, the glass IS fragile both front and back. This concern has also been well documented. The edges aren't protected in any way. I think this objectively makes it a less robust design than the previous iPhone 3GS. It might also interest you to know that the IPhone 3GS is still selling incredibly well, although this may be due to price as much as physical design.

I am not asking for a fatter iPhone. I am happy enough with the thickness of the present one, but I do want is longer battery life. Some of the older Nokia phones could go for 3 days without needing to be recharged. Sure the iPhone does much more, but simply the need for longer battery life trumps further thinness as far as i'm concerned.

You may be happy with a small screen, but that's probably because you're a skinny teenager with rather than a 40-something guy with fading eyesight. Maybe 5" would be too big, but 4"-4.5" would be a welcome step up and extend the phone's appeal.

Finally, if you don't agree with my thoughts, suggest something better rather than disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.
post #24 of 24
Well said, Tailpipe........................Thanks!
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