Lawsuit accuses Broadway Apple Store employees of racial discrimination - Page 2  

Hm. The problem I see here is, that this would likely force most staff members to stay outside...

===

Other than that: the article only contains the claim and the statement of the claimants. IF the dress or color of the guys was really the only factor leading to their dismissal, then this is certainly bad. Apple has no dress code requirement posted (like some restaurants and clubs do), so they can't randomly apply one (unless the dress disturbs other customers, e.g. stinks, or displays hateful slogans, etc.). But we neither know that, nor the "other side" of the story.

I have to disagree. White kids who try to be "thugs" are even more offensive than kids who grew up in a community and are following the norms of that community. Neither really has an excuse to behave or dress like a thug if they want to elevate themselves, but it sure is allot harder to bring yourself up and stand apart than it is do step down because you are insecure about being a privileged white kid in a urban environment.

If neither could speak well or impress me with their demeanor, I wouldn't hire either. Your assumptions are erroneous.

The "face value" was recorded via the victim's use of his phone's voice recorder. I don't know if it was race or just how they were dressed. However, Apple should fire GOD for his stupidity. I sincerely believe that Apple's intention is to always treat people with respect and do not want it's employees to discriminate against anyone for whatever reason. They made a mistake in believing GOD shared that same simple principle. Now, GOD is about to cost the company some serious money.

And how do you know that?

A dress code? An over the top comment. If you want to imitate the fashion of criminals, then don't be surprised at the reception you get at a bank or a retail store. Baggy clothes help conceal firearms and stolen goods which is why prisoners and thugs wear them.

And you're making an assumption that I'm white.

"Black" is making all kinds of assumptions. Don't expect facts to slow him (her?) down much.

Gangsta' posers might scare off the legitimate clientele. Someone who dresses that way should understand that. That is why they dress that way to begin with - to appear scary and tough.

No, no one should have to dress up to "compensate" for the color of their skin. Having said that, people who dress like that and carry themselves in a certain manner shouldn't be surprised at the treatment they get.

I'm on the train and who do you think makes me most nervous:
-the guy listening to his iPod, wearing t-shirt and jeans
-the guy wearing a dress shirt and slacks, taking a nap
-the guy wearing a beanie in the middle of the California spring day, hood over his head, sports jersey 4 sizes too big, backpack with a built-in boombox, as he peacocks down the aisle obnoxiously screaming with his friends?

Is it BECAUSE of the color of his skin alone that he's being treated with disdain? No. But I'd be lying if I said I said he was Chinese...

ABSOLUTELY!

In fact, wasn't it the Obama Appointed Attorney General, Eric Holder, that said the reason he would not prosecute the two New Black Panther members for voter intimidation was that it did not compare to the voter intimidation of the 1960's and would be an affront to "my people"!

So, I guess if voter intimidation-lite is tolerated, shouldn't racial discrimination-lite be also? \
/
/
/

superficial shallow person that i am, i don't buy it.

In other words, only those who conform to social norms are entitled to civil rights.

Walk like a racist, talk like a racist... You're appalling.

I would've thought the Broadway Apple would be a victim of a drive-by shooting after that incident.

Yes they do.

As far as I know Apple Stores have no dress code, but if they did it would most likely be similar to many high schools. No gang type of apparel or behavior allowed. Flip flops, green hair, skin tight jeans and twenty five piercings are all ok. Baggy pants, half way down your ass, hand signs pointing fingers in various directions, and rapper slang, not permitted.

Whenever I look, people dressed like that make up for a decent percentage of the iTunes Store's homepage... Apple even used tracks from artists dressing like that in commercials. They (again, if this story has any substance at all) should make up their mind.

Yeah, let's hang the guilty bastards -- then give them a fair trial!

...don't we need to get the facts first?

For some reason I don't think we are hearing the whole story. It takes time to open a sound recording application on a phone. The whole recording thing sounds premeditated.

It sounds like they were (rightfully) being discriminated against for being troublemakers. The quote said that he was not discriminating against them based on race. They were probably trying to cause trouble because they had a voice recorder app running. It sounds like they may have been violating a dress code too. You have the right not to be discriminated against based on race, but generally dress can be discriminated against. Especially if it involves display of certain body parts that naturally become exposed when wearing baggy clothing.

I don't know anyone that would kick someone out of a store (or anywhere) for race alone. The only racist people I know would act polite but consider them inferior based on race. The deep down belief that everyone has equal potential (no matter what their race) is what needs to be changed for equal rights. Seriously, people need to realize that this KKK-style racism doesn't exist anymore. Apple has a diverse employee base and I have always seen them have great respect for everyone.

I bet the store has some video footage to back up the employees.

Look at the screenshot of the Complaint in this article. In the first paragraph it says: "there attorneys", instead of "their"... But even before I saw that, and read this article, I thought that it was Shakedown, Extortion!!! In general, it seems like every week somebody files a law suit against Apple, cause "that's where the money is"!

We all know Racism is ugly and bad! Such Shakedown, Extortion Law Suits only add to the problem, IF it turns out to be that those "victims" are known "trouble makers" looking for a "Pay Day"... Even if they don't have a police record (yet...), that doesn't me that they are angels either... Hopefully the truth will come out, if this case ever goes to trial... If this is proved to be a Shakedown, Extortion Law Suit, these "smart asses" should be punished for wasting Time and Money!!!

Not long ago, I saw this scene at a supermarket:

2 African American teenagers were "shopping"... A manager, whom I know, came up to them and asked them to leave the store! I asked the manager: Why were you so nasty to them? What if they sue you, accusing you of racism, etc?!

The manager said:

"I've seen those guys before, I knew they were "up to no good"... Those kids told me that they were shopping along with their mom. So I said, let me to her, where is she? The kids said: she is another aisle! I said: let's go find her... The kids ran out of the store..."...

Ages 34 + 25 in this case is older, but it could be a similar kind of people, except more savvy, looking for a fight, ready to record the conversation, create a law suit...

I don't care about the color and how they were dressed, or that they likely don't live in that very upscale neighborhood in NYC, where the Apple Stores are... But... If, as was the case with the white manager in the supermarket, these 34 + 25 "victims" had a body language, vibe about them that was too obvious to the Apple Store folks, then it could likely be a PROVOCATION!!!

To mistake a possible PROVOCATION for something similar to a Civil Rights Protests where African Americans were beaten etc - that would be an INSULT to ALL of us, of all colors!!!

I do hope that the TRUTH comes out in this trial, and, if these guys of 34 + 25 years old were there to PROVOKE, I won't be too shocked!

I've seen plenty African American Staff at Apple Stores, and they were no less polite, cool, friendly then the rest of their colleagues!!! For Apple Store employe to simply try to throw a customer out of the store, unprovoked, without a reason, is highly unlikely...

The Staff at Apple Stores is already under pressure in NYC stores, which are crowded! The 5th Ave Store is busy at 1 - 3 AM... I've seen it! And it's crazy busy earlier in the evening!!! The "kids" could be there just to play with the Apple Products that they simply can't afford! They might even break it, or try to steal it, as a way to express their anger... The Apple Staff have to watch out for that, and be extra polite, so that they are not accused of any kind of discrimination... If things got as bad as these "victims" claim, there had to be a reason...

If a PROVOCATION on the part of these "victims" is proven in this case, it's an INSULT to African Americans FIRST, and all of us!!!

Apple must defend itself VIGOROUSLY!!! Shakedown, Extortion, Provocation Cases can't be allowed to become a norm!!!

EDIT, P.S.

I personally DON'T CARE what kind of clothes those "shopper" guys wore, as long they had some clothes on, and it was clean and thus didn't smell!

If they had tattoos all over their bodies, pierced eyelids, ears, nostrils, whatever... -- I recognize all that as their right of self expression! We all have our "scenes", heroes, generations, blah blah blah... Most of Apple Staff are pretty hip, and not too old, so they'll be able to see past all that "character dress up"... But...

If any of the above description fits the stereotypical profile of a "thug" who also acts suspiciously, plus cursing etc, and it all adds up to "looking for a fight", particularly if the same "shopper" is making a return appearance at the same store, then it's an OBVIOUS PROVOCATION! So, no matter how well Apple Staff is coached to "not to take the bait", we are all humans! If "the button" is pushed hard enough, the PROVOCATION will succeed!

The part about those "victims" recording the conversation hints at at a strong likelihood of INTENTIONAL PROVOCATION!!! Even if there are multiple cameras in all of Apple Stores, those cameras can't see everything, never mind record the audio of each interaction between the shopper and Apple Staff! The Shopper is playing the Game of Gotcha, Catch Me If You Can!

I strongly doubt that Apple Staff would kick a shopper out of the store based ONLY on the looks dress code, or race etc..., particularly in NYC, which is a very "colorful" place to begin with!

In this case, when it's an African American Shopper, there would likely be an additional "sensitivity" on the Apple Staff's part, particularly if the Staff is not black, but white, Asian etc....

This whole case is VERY SUSPICIONS...

Apple is "where the money is" and those 34 + 25 years old "victims" will try to get it, assisted by a lawyer whose "ethics" are odor-resistant! If this happened in a small mom's and pop's store, there would have been no case... Those guys would have probably be handled with physical force, maybe even baseball bats, never mind "colorful language"... The cops would have sympathized with the store, and the "victims" would look for a next Korean, or Chinese, or some other Immigrant owned store to PROVOKE.... But I don't want to get too stereotypical...

It's just sad to see that the $$ will be spent on lawyers instead of Research, or Charitable Donations... That money comes out of Apple's Profits, and thus effects AAPL Shareholders, but you all already know all that.

The people saying "dress like a gangsta and be kicked out" really don't get it. At all. People who dress gangsta have the same rights as other people. If necessary, this can be demonstrated in a courtroom, where the "gangstas" are the powerful citizen, and the megacorp is the apologetic shrinking violet who thanks the plaintiffs for teaching them an important lesson.

Is it fair for me to agree with both of your comments? He said he highly doubted, but didn't express certainty. I'm of a similar...inclination. And yes, I base it off of socio-economic stereotypes. Shoplifting and crime is more common with economically "disadvantaged" people. More common, not exclusive to. Investors and laymen have to make decisions every day that involve probability. It's not beyond my experience to be suspicious of two people who enter a store wearing clothes that have been associated with gangs or the economically challenged. Hey, I've got a hoodie, but the chances are slim that I'm going to show up at a store wearing the exact same thing as the friend next to me, hood drawn (why is your hood on in a store? Trying to hide your face?). People of a lower economic status often find sanctuary in groups where individuals largely dress the same (we all find sanctuary in groups...but we don't sacrifice a warm coat in the winter so that we can wear a top that is more socially accepted by our "in" group. Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of rich girls dressed in the same trendy tight jeans...but their coats (in February) are going to be different...they're not going to look like blood brothers. I have a 21 year old half brother (we're both "white"), and he wears loose fitting, baggy pants and I think owns some hoodies...it's not necessarily a race thing.

I think people bring up race way, way too much. Yes, it exists, but there is a big difference between saying someone looked suspicious because they were X color on the one hand, and on the other hand saying they looked suspicious because they wore clothes that, no matter what part of the United States you're from, are associated with people who are part of a lower economic fortune, and more often seen shop lifting and robbing gas stations than any other kind of dress. I think it's a very reasonable basis for suspicion, especially if the hood is drawn up and the guys are standing very close together. No one is a "racist denier" simply because they are suspicious of these guys. Yeah, it'd be nice and lovely if when we saw people, what we saw was their "soul," but we don't. (This paragraph is general...not directed at you).

That said, this whole article feels like link bait. Virtually every helpful piece of information is omitted. Who knows...maybe these two guys were just chillin dudes and the whiteys were paranoid because they're privileged and had never seen a cool person before. Who knows.

This isn't anything new. We had similar things happen to our family (Latino) so we don't shop in their stores anymore.

I know someone who has a master's degree and dress in baggy clothing almost everyday, even at Church. Would you hire him? Or better question, will he hire you? You really can't judge people by how they look.

Racial discrimination should not not be tolerated whether you consider it "lite" or not.

Agreed however the photo on the cover of an album never scared anyone. The same cannot be said for real life gangster rapper wannabes when you run into them in person.

A question you should be asking is, would they hire / maintain you on their staff, given your cultural positions in the workplace?

It's no slam dunk that a Harvard educated millionaire business leader / professor does not dress a bit thuggish, have black skin, and/or use Ebonics. They might be judging you, just as you judge them. JMO

Why is Apple being sued? I'm sure they have very strict rules about how customers are to be handled. If an employee or employees decided to ignore those rules then how is that Apple's fault? The only thing I can think of is, perhaps Apple didn't adequately discipline the employees.

On the face of it, this looks like the plaintiffs are just targeting Apple because they've got bucks. If Apple fights this then they tend to look like they're supporting prejudice. Their lawyer may be figuring that Apple will just settle to make the issue go away.

Indeed. This store seems too out there to be true. And if they used their phones to tape the whole thing where is the recording. They haven't posted it apparently and there's no mention of being told to hand over their phones etc.

There is something fishy in all this. Something like perhaps they have been in the stores before and are suspected of shoplifting. Perhaps, in keeping with standard retail practice, any employee came over to the area and would have regardless of race or clothing cause a skinny white girl can show product into her low cut jeans as well as a black brotha in gangsta clothes. Maybe they got up in the employees face and were nasty to him and that is why they were asked to leave. Maybe they were loud and obnoxious and asked to be quieter and refused and that's why security asked them to leave. Perhaps that is also why the manager wanted the cops called.

Maybe they are making the whole thing up.

And even if that one particular employee is a total racist douche doesn't mean that the staff, or the company is. He could have said something that set them off but they were still loud, rude and inappropriate and under those conditions should rightfully been booted out.

Then I guess you need to tell that to the Chief Prosecutor of the Land!

Baggy clothing is not "gangsta" or "thug" or whatever you want to call it. People of all type have adapted the style of dress. By the way, the real American gangsters are in offices on Wall Street and Congress. Nothing is what it seems to be. Look at the oil industry, food industry, tobacco industry, etc. that's where the real gangsters are! They are partnering with powerful members of Congress to rule every aspect of our lives. I think it's really dumb that people fear young men in baggy clothing. Why not fear Wall Street and Congress?

Since no one responded to my direct hypothetical with an appropriate response, I guess I will have to answer my own question. No, they most likely wouldn't have been asked to leave if they were wearing Armnai suits. Therefore, these two gentlemen were not asked to leave because they were black but involved other variables, i.e., mannerisms, verbal and physical language and their appearance.

If I walk into a bank and there's someone wearing a hoodie and baggy pants in front of me in line, I don't attempt to see what race that person is to make a judgement about my safety, I get the hell out. I've seen enough bank holdup surveillance photos on the news of various races to know that is not the place I want to be at that particular moment.

Excuse me while I go look up non-pecuniary in the dictionary.

And how did all those cases turn out.

Most of them were likely dropped because there was no proof that things went down the way the plaintiff says. Be it discrimination of customers or employees. Or there is proof that it totally didn't go down the way the plaintiff says. Like the guy that is fired claiming it is because he's black when he was hired as a holiday seasonal (so no guarantee of continued employment), his numbers were low and he was constantly late for shifts and late returning from meal breaks. Plus he received numerous negative comments from customers and fellow workers. Clearly there was cause to let him go as a crappy worker. Being black didn't have to be in the equation and likely wasn't (unless you can find proof of equally crappy non black employees that were kept on)



if they had a rule about asscrack and underpants they would have to fire half the staff of their stores. At least here in LA. The under 30 male staff around here are the worst offenders. It's gross.

I actually had a day I had to go in to buy quite a bit of stuff and was disgusted to see that their so called Business Rep was one such offender. I turned around right in front of him to a gent I know from previous visits is a manager and told him straight up "I need to buy about $20k in equipment and if you want your store to get the sale you better find me an employee that knows how to dress like a grown up and not a 2 year old. You have 20 minutes or I'm going to Best Buy" (yeah I was in a mood). I even whipped out my iphone and started up the clock in front of him. I honestly didn't expect them to have anyone on the staff that fit the bill.

Five minutes later a very nice, maybe 25 year old young man walks up. Pants on his waist, etc. I could even see a belt where the holster to his pay ipod was clipped on. And this was a pencil skinny kid that one would expect his pants to be hanging on his hips. He's the only one I will talk to if I have to go to that store. The rest of them just gross me out. And understand, I'm not some 50 year old foggy. I'm only 26 myself. I'm supposed to think that that look is sexy and cool. But I don't. As I told a guy at a club I want a man, not some 2 year old who can't figure out how to dress.

Speaking of provocation...I loved your post. I lived in Atlanta, Georgia for a year a few years ago and I can tell you this happens on a regular basis. People will intentionally provoke you, and then cry racism when you respond with nervousness or fear. This happens frequently...as in I saw it every week. Once, when I was driving, some guy fast walked up to my car, shouting at me, and blocking my path. When I stepped on the gas and swerved around him the guy cried racism and many other expletives. On another occasion, several people filled Peachtree St. in an area where there was no cross walk, and traffic had a green light. I honked the horn because they were making no effort to move. I was treated to a volley of cursing and accusations of being a racist.

The United States is a country still apologizing for things that happened well over a hundred years ago. The disadvantaged often carry a sense of entitlement against people they don't even know, even people like me who couldn't care less what color someone is.

Like I said in my other post...who knows what really happened. My eyes roll, however, whenever I see the racism card played. There doesn't need to be a dress code, but if you dress like a thug and wear a hood while INSIDE a 70F degree store wearing huge pockets...that alone sets off suspicion.

Emotional damages? Give me a break. Dress like the majority of your culture and you'll have no problems. I'm not promoting conformity...I'm saying if you're in Rome and you act like the counter culture, someone is going to get bothered. There are other venues for expressing your individuality than by dressing like a thug.

Yes, there may be racial discrimination somewhere in the United States each day but it is rare and declines every year. The US is the most racially diverse open society in the world. The country (majority white) elected a black man (or 1/2 black, if you prefer) in 2008.

Racial discrimination is not a major factor in keeping any one from achieving their goals and dreams.

In about 30 to 40 years, as the races mix, it will become even less of a factor. Mixed race men are procreating with mixed race women. The result is a blended racial appearance that is hard to identify or pinpoint.

Color me skeptical, but I dont see the racial element in the stated actions by the employee. From his supposedly stated comment it sounds like they have asked others to leave and/or have had problems with theft.



Then what is an excuse for discrimination? I cant think of a scenario where prejudice isnt the reason for discrimination.


QUESTION 1: If they have caught these men on camera stealing items from said Apple Store in the past but didnt know their names and felt it was too much of a hassle to prosecute (this is more common than you realize), but employees now knew the men by their faces wouldnt that opinion now be based on reason or actual experience and therefore not be considered undue prejudgment even if they had intended to pay that day?

QUESTION 1 PLUS: If we are to side with the plaintiffs are we to believe that all Apple Stores or this Apple Store will kick out all people based on this silly notion of race?

I'm a black and Apple store has always treated me very well and was happy to help me out like almost any business would. Apple is happy to take anyone's money regardless of their race. These people are grifting. If those people were at the store purchasing items then I'm sure the employees would've had no problem with these people being in the store. Bottom line... I just think they are making it up. After living in NYC for a little while foul mouthed black people making a scene in a store when they have no intentions of purchasing anything at all happens everyday. I watched it yesterday at starbucks for myself. Of course all the other black people in the store were not too happy about it as was myself.

I should note that once I was treated terribly in a store that I went into...and I wasn't dressed poorly and I wasn't using foul language or anything...and I was the only one in the store... It was a red wing shoe store and I was getting some shoes that my employer required me to get at that particular store. In any case, the guy shoooed me out of the store and I told my manager about it when I came to work without the shoes. Needless to say my manager was furious. Red Wing shoes gave me a gift certificate for 100 bucks and a letter of apology. Apparently, Red Wing was inline to loose a $60,000 account.

So what I am saying is that while I am skeptical, nothing shocks me.

I see. You think the attorney general is being racist so now you can also. Brilliant.

You inspired me. "Of or relating to money." Now I know.

Ha...

I went to the Glendale, CA store for some event -- it was very crowded with people of all races an all manner of dress. The Apple employees were of different races -- but all dressed alike.

As a former owner of retail computer stores, I pay attention to the customers!

One young man, with tawny skin appeared to be Hispanic. But, what drew my attention, was his black hair was spiked -- rising about 7 inches above his head. And he was dressed all in black -- tight T-Shirt and tight skinny jeans.

He, clearly, meant to be noticed -- and appeared to be making some "statement" by the way he dressed and looked... Though, what statement, I could not tell.


The following week, the Pasadena store opened -- it was about 4 miles from home. I didn't need anything, but I thought I'd just check it out.

It was packed -- similar to my recent experience.

Odd... I saw the same person, spiked-hair and black attire. I went over and asked him: "Didn't I see you at the Glendale store event last week?"

He, kind of hemmed and hawed... Then he softly told me he worked for Apple security and was monitoring the activity in the store.

Brilliant! Becoming invisible by standing out in a crowd.

they are basing their opinion (assumption) on the same thing that anyone with common sense would. why would a retail store that serves all kinds of races (do you have any idea how many happy black customers frequent a typical apple store in ny?) turn away 2 black gentlemen on one day? apple and its employees care about money a lot more than they care about anyone's race. so common sense would dictate that these two men were behaving differently than everyone else in the store so apple refused to serve them. without all the facts, anyone reading racism into this is the real problem.

It’s funny(or sad?) that I never see or hear Obama referred to as 1/2 white. “Obama is our first black president” might be true, but it’s certainly true Obama is our 43rd* white president.


* I am counting unique individuals. Grover Cleveland is oft counted as the 22nd and 24th president.