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Analysis finds OLED display unlikely for Apple's third-gen iPad

post #1 of 23
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Despite a recent report that an Apple executive traveled overseas to see Samsung's latest AMOLED displays for a future iPad, a new report claims that the company would not be able to produce enough 9.7-inch displays to meet capacity.

OLED-display.net on Friday made their case as to why Apple will not adopt an active-matrix organic light-emitting diode display in its third-generation iPad. The site noted that Samsung is expected to concentrate on small- and medium-sized OLED panels with its latest production lines, set to begin manufacturing in the next two weeks.

Samsung's total capacity is expected to be 8 million 4-inch OLED panels per month by the end of 2011. But the display maker is also said to have delayed investments for larger screen sizes of 6 inches to 9 inches until 2012.

The report also said that Samsung is interested in producing an OLED display for its own 7-inch Samsung Galaxy Tab, but such a device is not expected to arrive until 2012 at the earliest. And that screen size is significantly smaller than the 9.7-inch display Apple has embraced with the iPad form factor.

Also included is video footage from an interview with Barry Young, director of the OLED Association. The clip shows Young confidently saying that Apple will not ship a product with an OLED screen in 2011.

"If anything, it would have to be after 2011, maybe 2012," he said. "It's just not going to happen for Apple."

The report concludes that Samsung Mobile Display could provide millions of smaller OLED display panels, with sizes of 3 inches or 4 inches, to Apple by late 2011 or early 2012. But the company is not expected to be able to produce screen sizes of between 7 inches and 9 inches in mass quantity by that time.



The analysis comes in response to a report earlier this week from The Korea Herald, which claimed that Apple Chief Operating Officer Tim Cook visited South Korea last week to talk with Samsung executives about utilizing an AMOLED display for its third-generation iPad. Sources reportedly told the publication that Apple could launch its next iPad before the end of 2011.

It also claimed that Apple offered Samsung "an advance" for AMOLED screens to guarantee capacity this year. It said that Samsung's Super AMOLED screens offer bright screens, less sunlight reflection and reduced power consumption, resulting in a "significant advantage" over traditional LCD displays.

The iPad 2 utilizes the same IPS LCD display found in the first-generation iPad. Rumors of an AMOLED screen on the iPad have persisted, and even existed before the device was formally announced.
post #2 of 23
I don't think volume should be a show stopper. Apple can offer both LED and AMOLED models and let buyers choose between them. The AMOLED model is probably a tad more expensive, I suppose.
post #3 of 23
Maybe iPad 4 then..

I've recently bought a nexus s with a 4" Super AMOLED, and it puts my ipad2 screen to shame.
The colours are extremely vivid, there is no backlight bleeding whatsoever, and the contrast is great, displaying a black image in low light room looks almost as if the screen is off.
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post #4 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj.yuan View Post

I don't think volume should be a show stopper. Apple can offer both LED and AMOLED models and let buyers choose between them. The AMOLED model is probably a tad more expensive, I suppose.

So far, I haven't seen anything OLED 7" or larger that was realistically priced. Even Sony's 11" OLED TV is out of production, and that was $1800 when it was available.

Apple already offers 12 iPad variants, I wonder where on the chart they would add another set of variants.
post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKpro View Post

Maybe iPad 4 then..

I've recently bought a nexus s with a 4" Super AMOLED, and it puts my ipad2 screen to shame.
The colours are extremely vivid, there is no backlight bleeding whatsoever, and the contrast is great, displaying a black image in low light room looks almost as if the screen is off.

Thats a bad comparison. A better comparison would be with an iPhone 4 screen. The larger screens are just far more expensive, and so no one is using the best screens in their tablets.
The backlight bleeding is not an inherent flaw in LCD, but rather a flaw in the set that is being manufactured for the iPad 2.

OLED has great potential, but right now the best LCD technology is far ahead. About the only current major advantage OLED has over LCDs is better blacks (and consequently a better contrast ratio). However, that advantage is more than offset by the significant disadvantage of a much less clear screen in sunlight. This, once again, is not as much of an issue with phones, since they are small enough, that you can shield the phone from sunlight with your body, but is a significant issue for tablets.

And the long-term color degradation issues are severe and real. Anyone selling OLED screens right now is basically hoping the good looking screen will attract you to it, and the fact that the color imbalance a year or so down the line is something you wont be aware of.
post #6 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Thats a bad comparison. A better comparison would be with an iPhone 4 screen. The larger screens are just far more expensive, and so no one is using the best screens in their tablets.
The backlight bleeding is not an inherent flaw in LCD, but rather a flaw in the set that is being manufactured for the iPad 2.

OLED has great potential, but right now the best LCD technology is far ahead. About the only current major advantage OLED has over LCDs is better blacks (and consequently a better contrast ratio). However, that advantage is more than offset by the significant disadvantage of a much less clear screen in sunlight. This, once again, is not as much of an issue with phones, since they are small enough, that you can shield the phone from sunlight with your body, but is a significant issue for tablets.

And the long-term color degradation issues are severe and real. Anyone selling OLED screens right now is basically hoping the good looking screen will attract you to it, and the fact that the color imbalance a year or so down the line is something you wont be aware of.

That's a load of bollocks. Maybe on the first Gen products, but the new Samsung Super OLED displays like in the Galaxy II solve both these issues, and are FAR better in sunlight than any LCD.
post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKpro View Post

Maybe iPad 4 then..

I've recently bought a nexus s with a 4" Super AMOLED, and it puts my ipad2 screen to shame.
The colours are extremely vivid, there is no backlight bleeding whatsoever, and the contrast is great, displaying a black image in low light room looks almost as if the screen is off.

With the SAMOLED on my galaxy s, it DOES look like the screen is off in any lighted room if the image is all black. I never thought of these sort of deep blacks as being something to look for in regards to good picture, but my goodness it really helps.

I hate the pixel spacing on this thing though. Is the Nexus S the same?
post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

And the long-term color degradation issues are severe and real. Anyone selling OLED screens right now is basically hoping the good looking screen will attract you to it, and the fact that the color imbalance a year or so down the line is something you wont be aware of.

Where'd you hear that?
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Where'd you hear that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_LED#Disadvantages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active-...#Disadvantages
http://data.4dsystems.com.au/downloa...esentation.pdf

This is, in general, an LED issue. The biggest problem with LEDs right now, is differential degradation of different colored Diodes. There are some tricks to compensate for it, but the best trick is to simply avoid using Blue, which degrades the fastest.
post #10 of 23
Hmmm, didn't Apple just buy a TON of manufacturing equipment a few months ago? I wonder what that's for. To build iCloud? I heard Samsung will be able to manufacture 1.2M iClouds per week. Or OLED displays.
post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

And the long-term color degradation issues are severe and real. Anyone selling OLED screens right now is basically hoping the good looking screen will attract you to it, and the fact that the color imbalance a year or so down the line is something you wont be aware of.

It's true that half-time is different for each of the three sub pixel colors but it's not impossible to compensate if you know the half-time specifications.

The lifetime issues with OLED are not as huge a problem as 3-4 years back when manufacturers were still in the research phase.

Plasma and LCD (or backlight units) technologies also have lifetime issues and although not as short as OLED, color compensation is used.

OLED is an amazing technology, without doubt. Much better than LCD and plasma will ever be. The real issues right now is mass production. No large-size 7-9. generation OLED plants have been set up at this point.
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga89 View Post

That's a load of bollocks. Maybe on the first Gen products, but the new Samsung Super OLED displays like in the Galaxy II solve both these issues, and are FAR better in sunlight than any LCD.

Do you have any source for that? I don't follow OLED vs LCD religiously, so its quite possible my information is out of date.

But, in reality, the visual difference between OLED and LCD displays are minimal at best. Basing it off the Samsung quote here:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3842...super-lcds.htm

Quote:
However, Samsung has openly questioned the virtue of iPhone 4's new display, saying that not only a human eye will not be able to detect the difference between the AMOLED and Retina display but also the LCD screen on iPhone 4 consumes more energy than the AMOLED display on Samsung smartphones.

The major advantages of OLED are 3 fold:
1) Price - They are much cheaper to manufacture. However, supply constraints means this is not true currently.
2) Power consumption - They have lower power consumption. This is offset slightly by using LED backlighting in LCD displays, but LED displays still have lower power consumption.
3) Screen types - LEDs can be used for any sort of screen (e.g., one you can roll up), since they can use a plastic substrate. There are no commercial implementations of these yet, that I know of.

The disadvantages:
1) No supply
2) Technology isn't as mature as LCD, so there are the aforementioned degradation issues.
3) Outdoor display issues, due to the lack of reflectivity (although, you claim this has been solved)
post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnielse View Post

OLED is an amazing technology, without doubt. Much better than LCD and plasma will ever be. The real issues right now is mass production. No large-size 7-9. generation OLED plants have been set up at this point.

OLED is clearly the future. I completely agree with that. Dont think its quite there yet for mass usage though.

Although, Apple's billions might be just the thing that could change that.
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Despite a recent report that an Apple executive traveled overseas to see Samsung's latest AMOLED displays for a future iPad, a new report claims that the company would not be able to produce enough 9.7-inch displays to meet capacity. ...

Riiight. It's only *capacity* that's a problem.

The first report from yesterday was BS to begin with. It said that Tim Cook was considering using OLED displays because ... then it listed of every gigantic fault of OLED displays with the added information that they have been "fixed" (magically somehow without any details), by the new model. Now, (supposedly), we won't get these magical unexplained displays that solve all the problems of OLED displays that stops Apple from using them, but not because they don't exist, only because they can't meet demand? This is idiotic.

IMO the only thing true out of all of this is that Tim Cook went to visit Samsung. Everything else sounds like made up crap from the OLED booster society.
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnielse View Post

... OLED is an amazing technology, without doubt. Much better than LCD and plasma will ever be. The real issues right now is mass production. ....

Sorry, but no.

The "real" issues with OLED remain:

- poor colour reproduction
- doesn't work in sunlight at all

... and both of those things are endemic to the very process which makes OLED so popular which is the fact that it uses organic dyes instead of light emitting elements. You can't easily "design them out."

OLED has been around for many years now and gets better all the time, but they haven't really made any progress at all on those two key flaws. The smart money at this point is on some future new technology coming along to replace both LCD's and OLED's.
post #16 of 23
Of course its unlikely, do you know how much it would cost?
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post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

- doesn't work in sunlight at all.

Going from sunlight photos I've seen on the internet, including one by Andy Inhatko, OLED looks about as useful as my iPhone in similar sunlight. Which is to say not very, but to say it doesn't work at all is a stretch.
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Going from sunlight photos I've seen on the internet, including one by Andy Inhatko, OLED looks about as useful as my iPhone in similar sunlight. Which is to say not very, but to say it doesn't work at all is a stretch.

It's not very sunny where I live, but I am basing that primarily on reports I've read from actual users.

There was someone who commented on a thread here just yesterday about how they couldn't see "anything at all" in bright sunlight on their OLED screen.

I find even on a bright sunny day, if you crank up the brightness on an iPhone or an iPad to the top, it's not only readable it's actually quite clear and sharp.

Superlatives aside, it's fair to say that OLED screen have very drastically reduced visibility in direct sunlight and it's the inherent properties of OLED that lead to this effect, making it sort of "unfixable" (as I was maintaining in my initial remarks).
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Sorry, but no.

The "real" issues with OLED remain:

- poor colour reproduction
- doesn't work in sunlight at all

... and both of those things are endemic to the very process which makes OLED so popular which is the fact that it uses organic dyes instead of light emitting elements. You can't easily "design them out."

OLED has been around for many years now and gets better all the time, but they haven't really made any progress at all on those two key flaws. The smart money at this point is on some future new technology coming along to replace both LCD's and OLED's.

get yourself updated. if you refer to amoled screen, that is the samsung galaxy i5700, which works really bad under sunlight.

samsung galaxy s i9000 uses super amoled screen. it has a very good viewing under sunlight and is better than iphone's ips screen

samsung galaxy s II uses super amoled + which is superior to i9000 screen. It also doesn't suffer from vibrant colour reproduction and pentile subpixel.
post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

OLED displays don't work like traditional LCDs. Where as LCDs filter out a backlight that is always on, each pixel in an OLED produces its own light. So there is no backlight to bleed/leak, and blacks means that the pixel is actually off.

Which is the one thing I love about OLEDs. The comparably short life of their blue elements (and, well, the red and green, as well) turns me off them, however. Though I'd love to have strips of white (or a reserved blue) OLEDs as ambient room lighting in my house. Just have those on at night for visibility/security instead of power-hungry archaic light bulbs.

But no, (AM)OLED screens on any Apple product for quite a long time are about as likely as AMD processors in Macs.

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post #21 of 23
maybe samsungle and apple-bee could meet in the middle and mass produce a 7 x5 " oled screen for Apples new and fantastic smaller I PAD 3 MINI .

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post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

OLED has great potential, but right now the best LCD technology is far ahead. About the only current major advantage OLED has over LCDs is better blacks (and consequently a better contrast ratio). However, that advantage is more than offset by the significant disadvantage of a much less clear screen in sunlight. This, once again, is not as much of an issue with phones, since they are small enough, that you can shield the phone from sunlight with your body, but is a significant issue for tablets.

And the long-term color degradation issues are severe and real. Anyone selling OLED screens right now is basically hoping the good looking screen will attract you to it, and the fact that the color imbalance a year or so down the line is something you wont be aware of.


Your not familiar with the latest OLED's my friend.

1) Faster response rate 0.000001ms OLED vs 0.002 ms for the fastest LCD

2) Full 180 deg viewing angle. (the light source/colors filter is on the surface of the display not behind it)

3) Higher potential brightness. (again the there are far fewer layers in an OLED vs LCD and therefore is thinner AND lighter)

4) Color reproduction is OVER 100% NTSC broadcast standards color gamette vs only UP TO 72% for top of the line LCD's (although with latest nano-carbon tubes color reproduction has improved to slightly over 80%)

5) Complete individual pixel shut off vs partial light source block in the LCD using liquid crystalline polarization.

Watch as you'll eat your words when Apple adopts OLED in the near future. Its just inevitable. LCD has reached its maximum technology barrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Which is the one thing I love about OLEDs. The comparably short life of their blue elements (and, well, the red and green, as well) turns me off them, however. Though I'd love to have strips of white (or a reserved blue) OLEDs as ambient room lighting in my house. Just have those on at night for visibility/security instead of power-hungry archaic light bulbs.

But no, (AM)OLED screens on any Apple product for quite a long time are about as likely as AMD processors in Macs.


Comparatively low blue life? That is only if you turn on the screen every day for 8 + hours for the next 3 years. We are talking about theoretical limits here, of which none are practical in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Sorry, but no.

The "real" issues with OLED remain:

- poor colour reproduction
- doesn't work in sunlight at all

... and both of those things are endemic to the very process which makes OLED so popular which is the fact that it uses organic dyes instead of light emitting elements. You can't easily "design them out."

OLED has been around for many years now and gets better all the time, but they haven't really made any progress at all on those two key flaws. The smart money at this point is on some future new technology coming along to replace both LCD's and OLED's.

"poor color reproduction"?

Are you kidding me? Its LCD who has poor color reproduction as it can only produce 72% of the NTSC broadcast standard color gamette.

OLED's can produce OVER 100% of the color gamatte on the NTSC broadcast standard color gamette.


"doesnt work in sunlight at all"

What?

Go to an At&t store and take a look at the latest 4.5" Super AMOLED + on the Samsung Infuse 4G and come back here.

"some future technology to replace LCD and OLED"

Right, there is always something better around the corner. But in the foreseeable future, there isnt.

OLED is the leading technology of the future.

E-ink with color and Samsung's Liquivista Electro wetting displays dont emit light and therefore wont be useable in the dark.

This leaves only OLED in the future roadmap.

The standard that OLED's has set will be extremely difficult to beat. (brightness, sharpness, color reproduction, scalability, cost effectiveness, mass production, patents, energy use, thiness, etc. )

The two big companies who are investing in OLED is Samsung and Sony.

Samsung right now has about 98% of the OLED market dominance.



If you still dont think OLED is the future, I recommend you take a look at a 40" AMOLED TV screen vs a 40" LCD TV screen right next to each other.

Mass production and cost effectiveness of the product is the ONLY barrier left to take AMOLED's into the mass market.

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post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

Your not familiar with the latest OLED's my friend.

1) Faster response rate 0.000001ms OLED vs 0.002 ms for the fastest LCD

2) Full 180 deg viewing angle. (the light source/colors filter is on the surface of the display not behind it)

3) Higher potential brightness. (again the there are far fewer layers in an OLED vs LCD and therefore is thinner AND lighter)

4) Color reproduction is OVER 100% NTSC broadcast standards color gamette vs only UP TO 72% for top of the line LCD's (although with latest nano-carbon tubes color reproduction has improved to slightly over 80%)

5) Complete individual pixel shut off vs partial light source block in the LCD using liquid crystalline polarization.

Watch as you'll eat your words when Apple adopts OLED in the near future. Its just inevitable. LCD has reached its maximum technology barrier.




Comparatively low blue life? That is only if you turn on the screen every day for 8 + hours for the next 3 years. We are talking about theoretical limits here, of which none are practical in the real world.



"poor color reproduction"?

Are you kidding me? Its LCD who has poor color reproduction as it can only produce 72% of the NTSC broadcast standard color gamette.

OLED's can produce OVER 100% of the color gamatte on the NTSC broadcast standard color gamette.


"doesnt work in sunlight at all"

What?

Go to an At&t store and take a look at the latest 4.5" Super AMOLED + on the Samsung Infuse 4G and come back here.

"some future technology to replace LCD and OLED"

Right, there is always something better around the corner. But in the foreseeable future, there isnt.

OLED is the leading technology of the future.

E-ink with color and Samsung's Liquivista Electro wetting displays dont emit light and therefore wont be useable in the dark.

This leaves only OLED in the future roadmap.

The standard that OLED's has set will be extremely difficult to beat. (brightness, sharpness, color reproduction, scalability, cost effectiveness, mass production, patents, energy use, thiness, etc. )

The two big companies who are investing in OLED is Samsung and Sony.

Samsung right now has about 98% of the OLED market dominance.



If you still dont think OLED is the future, I recommend you take a look at a 40" AMOLED TV screen vs a 40" LCD TV screen right next to each other.

Mass production and cost effectiveness of the product is the ONLY barrier left to take AMOLED's into the mass market.

Your statements are not entirely true...

OLED are not higher brightness than backlit LCD. This is why vast majority of OLED need the ugly Pentile matrix arrangement to make fade blue and red pixels brighter.

Color reproduction of OLED is not accurate, they are not reproducing NTSC gamut well unlike calibrated IPS LCD and OLED colour temperature will shift over time because all OLED sub pixels degrade after time but not at the same rate, boosting OLED brightness or/and reducing sub pixels size to match the iPhone 4 IPS LCD @ 326 dpi will aggravate this problem.

OLED still and will be for ever worst than LCD at direct sunlight since LCD can be seen in transparency without need of it's backlight at direct sunlight. OLED can't do that, to see something on OLED screen, pixels brightness has to overcome ambient light.

For sure OLED got promising future, but have you wonder why we don't see any other product beside short lived product like phone and marginal MP3 player with OLED yet? Why Sony pull out it's OLED TV less than one year after being announce?.

We still are at first gen of OLED screen, and this technology have not passe the test of time yet and we already know about pixel degradation issue. Keep in mind about the Organic part of the technology, and like anything organic, it degrade after time.
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