Microsoft demonstrates Windows 8 with HTML5 apps - Page 4

Im a touch typist, yet even when the iPad is in landscape mode I have to look at the screen. The glass all feels the same to me and I simply don't trust the outcome of my efforts without looking.

Now that you mention the problems with split keyboards, causes me to pause. I haven't considered the additional effort required to continually refocus one's eyes from each side of the tablet as you type. Good point. This could very well be an issue. Don't know till I try it.

Giving this some more thought, I think I would be just as happy with an iphone sized portrait keyboard along either the right or left side of the ipad in any orientation. Either at a user pre-defined location or using some kind of proximity sensor to determine where you are holding the ipad with your hand(s).

Im sure there are plenty of designers at Apple thinking about this issue on the iPad already.

I also agree with you about smaller sized iPads. I think the ergonomics of the smaller unit that you can easily hold with one hand without getting tired would feel nice to me.

How else would you do it? Telekinesis?

now there is an idea. this would make the challenge go away completely.

Soli, I hope this is meant to be humor. In case it isn't (I'm humor-challenged today), the term "touch-typist" refers to a person who can read a ms. and accurately type without looking at the keyboard. That's why there are little projections on the F and J keys of the US keyboard; that's where you place your two index fingers.

Not the inclusion of an emoticon smily sticking his tongue out .

List of quotes posted by Flaneur:










If I didn't recognize the posters of these comments to be regulars on this board, I'd think that they were astroturfers, using pretty much the same words. (Not meaning any slurs on those of us who think alike and not criticizing the commenters' opinions.) Reminds me of the commenters/reviewers on MacUpdate who are all one person (the developer's brother) commenting under different logins, extolling the virtues of the app, all reading the same.

Of course the quotes are reduced to a few words and probably taken out of context.

Ahhh, NOW I get it. You see, I am a bit slow on the uptake today. Sorry 'bout that!

actually, this has cause me to think about this a bit more critically. I guess touch typing would work better in the iPad if it would allow you to lightly rest most of your fingers on the on-screen keyboard region without sending an input event when you lift up your fingers to push down an a desired virtual key. Maybe they can try to use the accelerometer in-conjunction with the touch screen as a possible solution like they do to recognize desired attenuation in Garageband for the iPad.

Didn't Microsoft just go all ape shit over Ballmer using the name Windows 8 just a week ago? Now they release a demo of Windows 8. Man they don't know whether they are coming or going.

What I envision my ideal notebook to be is something I use for productivity when I am at my office desk and when it's time to relax, I just pull off the LCD screen and use touch technology as I lazily lounge on my couch. This is what is preventing me from purchasing a tablet in its current form - be it an iPad2 or an Asus Eeepad Transformer. Unless there is something coming out that would allow me to do this in 2-years time, it looks like Windows 8 is the only viable option for me.

I think you the user MS is banking on. My question is good of an experience can Windows 8 yield as tablet coming from a desktop/x86 foundation? Even with the new Ivy Bridge CPUs will this be sufficiently low power enough to give you all day use? What size does a tablet begin too big to cart around? People already complain about the 9.7" iPad and most 'PC' displays are 13" or larger for notebooks which desktops being even larger.

It's one thing to think to think different, which I believe MS is doing in spades these days, but it's another to think clearly and accurately. I think W8 on tablets is still a big gamble.

The tile interface looks good and looks very fluid and very well suited for touch. My major gripe is the desktop and laptop thing. They say that this interface will also run on normal computers with a mouse and a keyboard. It looks interesting but for a normal computer it is downright scary.

I got scared when they showed Office in the demo. IE10 looked pretty awesome and the multitasking looks like something that should have been on tablets since day 1.

In about a year, we will be seeing the new Windows shell. I don't believe they're that stupid to leave the 2nd interface in the state it is in. Anyways, we'll see if I will be getting an iPad 3 or a W8 tablet.

I think there's a typo in your post:

Microsoft's idea is a "bitter user experience"

sounds like how win 7 can be set up currently

No, it is not true that even an atom struggles with w7

Not with Windows 7 Starter Edition, you mean.

Dunno, never used the starter addition. My hp mini runs perfectly well with Win 7 home. For sure, it could be faster, but most of hte issues are related to the dog slow hdd in it, rather than the processor (plus access through an 802.11g network). There are points that I get annoyed with my macbook doing things slower than the atom based machine - whcih is likely due to the way osx handles the software, and the dog slow hdd that apple put in there...

The first time Ballmer used it, they were coming. Prematurely

It's true I unfairly snipped out the quotes here, and from some people I really respect, but the point is that Microsoft is slipping in some truly awful taste (still) with their new snazzy tile metaphor.

Remember starting in the early sixties when everything in the kitchen had to be avocado or harvest gold? Horrible. That's maybe where these "designers" formed their color habits.

It has to stop. These colors are deeply depressing, and it's alarming that they and seemingly everyone else fails to see it. I bet Jobs and company are howling.

Microsoft has dragged down the world's spirit with their visual littering long enough. They should hire Martha Stewart or somebody. Somebody with taste.

I'm lovin the innovation here. Lion looks stagnant in comparison. :/

"Sales of PCs have yet to rebound to levels prior to the release of Vista"

Flat out wrong. Last year 348 million PC were sold, which is up from the year before and the higest ever.

Of course DED wrote this so the lies should be expected.

M$ has no shame. They'll copy anything are everyone. The reason the guy in the video said we'll be showing other *new* stuff in the coming months is because Apple hasn't revealed them yet!!

Oh, snap! Quite a scathing critique. But I agree with you. I guess you could say that Microsoft is employing "inside the box" thinking.

I think this inflection was brought to the mainstream via that crapumentary showum, what was it called? Oh rightAmerican Chopper. Since that show came out, every subsequent crapumentary show had that same "know what i'm sayin'?" lilt*.

* "lilt" is the wrong wordthe Irish have a lilt and it's lovely. What the AC boys and all their wannabes do is not lovely. \

Actually, I just finished reading the 1998 book "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" last night, and it described this interface along with saying Microsoft had been working on it since 1996. The only detail not mentioned was that it would use multitouch.

One of the authors of this 1998 book worked on tablet PC's for Microsoft in the early 1990's.

If you're a touch typist, then you're relying on muscle memory, as I mentioned earlier. Professional string players (violin, viola, cello, bass) also rely on muscle memory, and they do it quite well. For "ordinary" people (yes, I think string musicians are a bit super-human) muscle memory is what helps you go up and down stairs without looking at every step. It also helps your feet find the clutch, brake and accelerator pedals without looking while you drive (very important!!) Similarly, once you get used to holding your iPad (if they ever did the "thumb keyboard" thing) in the "correct" position so that your thumbs could reach all of the soft-keys, then you could do your muscle memory driven touch-typing thing.

Not to get all contrarian here, but again, once you get used to proper positioning, you'll be needing to move your eyes to the keys less and less.

Hmmm... this is an intriguing idea. In contrast to what I said earlier, a user will often find themselves in a situation where they only have one hand free, in which case your suggestion would work better. I still like the "two-thumbs" keyboard as well. There's no reason a future iOS version (or third party add-on) couldn't employ both, utilizing each as the situation requires.

Perhaps, but obviously, as you go smaller, you lose screen real estate, unless you just make everything smaller, but that just makes things harder to read then. I think Apple should continue avoid the temptation to make sizes for every whim and preference.


I believe the technical term is "hunt and peck".

Not sure about your thumbs, but the only typing memory skills my thumbs possess is hitting the space bar.
Maybe yours technique is different then mine when when you type on a keyboard?

The point is your thumb muscles can learn thumb-typing*, as BB, iPhone and iPod Touch usersand anyone who's ever used a mobile phonecan attest; they certainly use their thumbs to do their typing, no?

* to get technically nit-picky, it's your brain that learns, not your thumb muscles.

@Flaneur #120

This is a particularly sad post. Calling out people because they have a different opinion than yours? We don't need biased group think.
If you want to know Microsoft's design principles, just go to the source: Bill Buxton and Albert Shum http://bit.ly/jkxZjv

Fascism? Really?

As you said above.. muscle memory means you can do things without using your eyes to coordinate (or words to that effect; I apologize in advanced if I miss-paraphrased). I am afraid that I dont have that skill when using my thumbs to type on any touch screen device that I can think of (iPhone, iPad, etc). I need to look at where I place my thumbs for each and every letter. I must admit that I have a pretty good idea where the keys are relative to each other based on my experience getting around a traditional keyboard. However, I not sure that is finger memory? Or is it? I don't know.. maybe I am alone in this. However, I suspect not.
Maybe I am just needlessly splitting hairs at this point. sorry if I appear to be.

And you really think anyone cares?

ack. double post. sorry.

I'm not keeping this topic of "muscle memory" alive simply to be pedanticit's more because I'm geektastically amazed at how our brains work. You may or may not have heard the following joke:

Tourist: How do I get to Carnegie Hall?
Smart-ass Local: Practice, practice, practice!!!

"Practice" is all about training your brain. We're not born knowing how to walk or drive or type or play an instrument. We all have to practice doing the same actions over and over again, so that our brain learns how to direct our muscles to do what we want to do. It's the reason I can type what I'm typing now without thinking of where I'm putting my fingers. It's the reason we have the common idiom, "It's like riding a bike!"once you learn to ride a bike, you basically don't forget (barring a severe brain injury or disease)that's what muscle memory is. This stuff may seem trivial, but it's vitally important to anyone who works in the realm of UI design. UI designers have to have a good understanding of how our brains learn, so that the technology helps, rather than hinders the user. By UI, I'm not just talking software interfaces, I'm talking about physical, industrial design as well (cars, keyboards, airplane cockpits, etc.).

To split hairs further, I would argue that it's not about having thumb-typing skills, it's about developing thumb-typing skillseven on a glass surface that provides basically no tactile feedbackby training your brain. You'd be pretty amazed at what your brain is capable of learning.

Looks Like a big Windows Phone 7 PC. Hate the phone. What do you think I think of the OS?

The problem with muscle memory on on-screen keyboards is that, with the varying display sizes of phones and tablets, almost every keyboard is going to different key sizes and spacing. So while if you practice enough at it, you can get used to say the iPhone4 keyboard, but that muscle memory won't translate too well over to the iPad.

Eh. Our brains our pretty resilientpractice enough on each of your devices, and your brain will be able to figure out which one you're using and adjust accordingly.

Say you have an iPad and an iPhoneyou will need to get used to both interfaces, which wouldn't be too hard. But, learning the interfaces of your own devices won't serve you so well if you need to borrow your friend's Android phone. You'll have to resort to the ol' "hunt & peck" method.

Well, legacy apps demand legacy control scheme... can't help much there. But I would expect MS Office 2013 (or whatever) will work in new environment, ideally giving an option to choose/switch between legacy and touch environment.

But still... I don't think that even legacy part is same old Windows 7. It has to be much more flexible in order to scale down to tablet hardware.

Off the topic... I was mildly amused to read in this article that Windows 7 is conservative compared to Windows Vista. Really?

Well, this will be first Windows for tablets, so that part will be the most interesting - how well will it work, and how well will it sell? Additionally, what approach will MS take - sell to anyone interested (likely), or sell exclusively to one brand (Nokia?)... or differentiate somehow premium brand (again, Nokia?) from all the other me-toos.

Regarding profit, revenue... I'm not that sure. So far we basically had traditional PC market on MS side versus traditional PC market on Apple side significantly helped by iOS growth. With Windows 8, MS will finally do significant push into tablets, and by that time WP7 will be more mature and, hopefully, well supported by Nokia. Of course there are so many unknowns there, but considering number of Nokia-faithful I know, I wouldn't be surprised to see WP7 getting respectful market share once Nokia starts selling.

All in all, MS has more new markets to "conquer" than Apple at this stage, and should they be successful, more profit and revenue to gain. But all this is purely academic - of all knowns and unknowns, one thing is very certain - both companies will do more than well for years to come.

I can't see a reason why MS could not update their SkyDrive to match whatever iCloud will be doing. It already offers 25GB of free storage for anyone with MS Live account (which is also free to get).

Don't forget, this is mostly software-defined technology, and MS is mostly software company with biggest potential in software development. I don't think Apple can easily beat them there.

Except that Courier was only a fancy prototype/research/smoke&mirrors for MS, and mainstream desktop OS is big part of their current bread & butter core business. I don't expect MS would play with one of their major products. It will be out in 2012, 3 years after Windows 7.

I don't think it is that early. At worst, they are working on Windows 8 since Windows 7 was released (which puts it at 2/3 of its development cycle). At best, Windows 8 development started before Windows 7 was released, which makes its current iteration even more mature (relative to expected release time-frame).