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"The best health care system in the world!"

post #1 of 65
6/2/11 at 8:48pm
Thread Starter 
It's a fact that people in the US are just plain ignorant about how well a health care system can work, since they've never experienced anything except what they know.

Let me give you an example.

I just had a follow-up endoscopy for my reflux esophagitis. My appointment was for 9:45am. I arrived at the hospital at 9:30, went to the ward for fee payment. I used my Octopus NFC card to pay the US$7.50 endoscopy fee. I dropped my appointment slip in the tray, connected to the free WiFi at the hospital and browsed the web on my iPad. The endoscopy center ward was busier than usual, so I didn't actually get into the procedure room until 10:00. Spoke to the doctor, lay down, and the nurse sprayed my throat with anesthetic. The entire procedure was finished by 10:10. I had a few follow up questions, which the doctor answered patiently and professionally. I got my prescription and appointment slip for my next consultation, which is in four weeks.

I went to the hospital pharmacy with my prescription, was given a number (no one in line) and went to an electronic kiosk to pay the US$1.25 prescription fee, again with my Octopus, and again with no one in line at the two kiosks.

Sat down and waited for 20 minutes (a terrible long wait). Got my prescription and went home.

Total cost, US$8.75.

Total time spent, just over an hour.

Didn't have to fill out a single form.

Next appointment, four weeks.

Now... Please tell me how the US has the 'best medical system in the world'. In the US, even with full insurance, the deductible alone would still be far more than this cost me.

I challenge anyone in the US to post a single anecdotal example of their experience in the US that went smoothly and inexpensively. Total cost including deductible and monthly premium should be offered. I honestly don't expect to get any responses.

Government health care works. Period. We just need to get rid of the greedy pharma and health care lobby in the US and get down to the business of keeping people healthy, not just making money.
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post #2 of 65
6/2/11 at 9:10pm
Question: Do you think that the endoscopy and prescription really only cost $8.75?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 65
6/2/11 at 10:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Question: Do you think that the endoscopy and prescription really only cost $8.75?

Nope, but do you really think the money you spend on insurance is less than the money I spend in taxes that goes toward my health care?

On top of that, do you really think more tax money in Hong Kong is spent on medical matters than in the US? So you're getting double dipped. I'm not, because we have government health care, and I don't have to pay insane insurance premiums and deductibles (though I do choose to pay for extra coverage, which didn't apply in this case).

Also, do you think the procedure room, equipment, doctor's fee, administrative fee, and medication costs are one tenth as much outside of the US as they are in your last "rich" country in the world that still doesn't provide public health care?

It's a question of inefficiency, corruption and greed (of private enterprise -- the health care and pharma lobby and providers -- not the government), which are rampant in the US. It's not a question of government management in and of itself, which can actually be pretty damned efficient as long as it's not being controlled by the big business lobby.
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post #4 of 65
6/2/11 at 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's a fact that people in the US are just plain ignorant about how well a health care system can work, since they've never experienced anything except what they know.

Let me give you an example.

I just had a follow-up endoscopy for my reflux esophagitis. My appointment was for 9:45am. I arrived at the hospital at 9:30, went to the ward for fee payment. I used my Octopus NFC card to pay the US$7.50 endoscopy fee. I dropped my appointment slip in the tray, connected to the free WiFi at the hospital and browsed the web on my iPad. The endoscopy center ward was busier than usual, so I didn't actually get into the procedure room until 10:00. Spoke to the doctor, lay down, and the nurse sprayed my throat with anesthetic. The entire procedure was finished by 10:10. I had a few follow up questions, which the doctor answered patiently and professionally. I got my prescription and appointment slip for my next consultation, which is in four weeks.

I went to the hospital pharmacy with my prescription, was given a number (no one in line) and went to an electronic kiosk to pay the US$1.25 prescription fee, again with my Octopus, and again with no one in line at the two kiosks.

Sat down and waited for 20 minutes (a terrible long wait). Got my prescription and went home.

Total cost, US$8.75.

Total time spent, just over an hour.

Didn't have to fill out a single form.

Next appointment, four weeks.

Now... Please tell me how the US has the 'best medical system in the world'. In the US, even with full insurance, the deductible alone would still be far more than this cost me.

I challenge anyone in the US to post a single anecdotal example of their experience in the US that went smoothly and inexpensively. Total cost including deductible and monthly premium should be offered. I honestly don't expect to get any responses.

Government health care works. Period. We just need to get rid of the greedy pharma and health care lobby in the US and get down to the business of keeping people healthy, not just making money.

All three of my children's births went very smoothly. There was paperwork after the fact and the total cost of the pregnancy, not the birth, but the entire pregnancy and visits was about 300 per child. My work covered all my health insurance except the last child when I had to pay $60 per month for the same coverage. I have also had the opposite experience.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #5 of 65
6/3/11 at 2:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's a fact that people in the US are just plain ignorant about how well a health care system can work, since they've never experienced anything except what they know.

Let me give you an example.

I just had a follow-up endoscopy for my reflux esophagitis. My appointment was for 9:45am. I arrived at the hospital at 9:30, went to the ward for fee payment. I used my Octopus NFC card to pay the US$7.50 endoscopy fee. I dropped my appointment slip in the tray, connected to the free WiFi at the hospital and browsed the web on my iPad. The endoscopy center ward was busier than usual, so I didn't actually get into the procedure room until 10:00. Spoke to the doctor, lay down, and the nurse sprayed my throat with anesthetic. The entire procedure was finished by 10:10. I had a few follow up questions, which the doctor answered patiently and professionally. I got my prescription and appointment slip for my next consultation, which is in four weeks.

I went to the hospital pharmacy with my prescription, was given a number (no one in line) and went to an electronic kiosk to pay the US$1.25 prescription fee, again with my Octopus, and again with no one in line at the two kiosks.

Sat down and waited for 20 minutes (a terrible long wait). Got my prescription and went home.

Total cost, US$8.75.

Total time spent, just over an hour.

Didn't have to fill out a single form.

Next appointment, four weeks.

Now... Please tell me how the US has the 'best medical system in the world'. In the US, even with full insurance, the deductible alone would still be far more than this cost me.

I challenge anyone in the US to post a single anecdotal example of their experience in the US that went smoothly and inexpensively. Total cost including deductible and monthly premium should be offered. I honestly don't expect to get any responses.

Government health care works. Period. We just need to get rid of the greedy pharma and health care lobby in the US and get down to the business of keeping people healthy, not just making money.

Two points, first I think you are confusing deductible and co-pay. My co-pay on visits is $10. We have a $100 co-pay if I were to go to the emergency room for example but we have something called Urgent Care which you can use without appointments for anything short of actually riding in unconscious in an ambulance.

Anyway my time frame isn't the same for most matters but that is because I have no ongoing treatment of anything that requires setting appointments in advance. I end up using my health plan for two purposes. One is if a cold is just kicking my ass which happens about every two years. There have been no problems there. The second reason I show up is once about every five years I will injure some joint in the soft tissue. I hate these injuries. They take forever to heal and when I get frustrated I show up and demand an X-ray. I get it, there's never anything fractured or broken. They tell me it needs time. I sulk and go away and they are right.

My personal view on health care is that Huckabee had it right, we don't have a health care issue but a health issue. Most Americans do not manage their own health even with good preventative advice and assistance. They eat too much, move too little and most want an increasing array of pills to solve the problems associated with all of this.

Mandating some part of the chain make all this cheaper isn't possible. The issue is much the same with education where often parent and student have no responsibility for their own learning. You can build a large institution that can deliver an increasing array of innovative and varied solutions. They can go from inexpensive to profoundly expensive but no matter what, the costs are higher for people who refuse to be proactive.

The quickest way to alter behavior is not the government. The government mandates one size fit all solutions and attempts to redistribute costs. When viewed in the context of Americans and how they treat their health, this is a disaster.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #6 of 65
6/3/11 at 4:34am
Nice to see some of America catching up-

"As Gov. Peter Shumlin took his spot on the granite steps of the Vermont State House, a row of people fanned out behind him wearing bright red t-shirts proclaiming, Health care is a human right. The slogan sounded noble, and wildly unrealistic. Until the governor spoke.

We gather here today to launch the first single-payer health care system in America, began Shumlin, a Democrat who has been governor barely four months. To do in Vermont what has taken too long: have a health care system, the best in the world, that treats health care as a right, and not a privilege."

Moments later, the governor made history, signing a law that sets Vermont on a course to provide health care for all of its 620,000 citizens through a European-style single payer system called Green Mountain Care.

Gov. Shumlin suddenly called for the several hundred people who had gathered to come closer as he signed the bill. Everybody in, he shouted.

Nobody out! came the reflexive reply, a call and response version of a slogan of the grassroots single-payer campaign. Shumlin chuckled, then made the single-payer bill the law of the Green Mountain State."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...er-health-care

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #7 of 65
6/3/11 at 5:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's a fact that people in the US are just plain ignorant about how well a health care system can work, since they've never experienced anything except what they know.

Let me give you an example.

I just had a follow-up endoscopy for my reflux esophagitis. My appointment was for 9:45am. I arrived at the hospital at 9:30, went to the ward for fee payment. I used my Octopus NFC card to pay the US$7.50 endoscopy fee. I dropped my appointment slip in the tray, connected to the free WiFi at the hospital and browsed the web on my iPad. The endoscopy center ward was busier than usual, so I didn't actually get into the procedure room until 10:00. Spoke to the doctor, lay down, and the nurse sprayed my throat with anesthetic. The entire procedure was finished by 10:10. I had a few follow up questions, which the doctor answered patiently and professionally. I got my prescription and appointment slip for my next consultation, which is in four weeks.

I went to the hospital pharmacy with my prescription, was given a number (no one in line) and went to an electronic kiosk to pay the US$1.25 prescription fee, again with my Octopus, and again with no one in line at the two kiosks.

Sat down and waited for 20 minutes (a terrible long wait). Got my prescription and went home.

Total cost, US$8.75.

Total time spent, just over an hour.

Didn't have to fill out a single form.

Next appointment, four weeks.

Now... Please tell me how the US has the 'best medical system in the world'. In the US, even with full insurance, the deductible alone would still be far more than this cost me.

I challenge anyone in the US to post a single anecdotal example of their experience in the US that went smoothly and inexpensively. Total cost including deductible and monthly premium should be offered. I honestly don't expect to get any responses.

Government health care works. Period. We just need to get rid of the greedy pharma and health care lobby in the US and get down to the business of keeping people healthy, not just making money.

Who ever told you the U.S. health care is the best in the world is completely stupid in their thinking. It is down right crappy.The fees are exorbitant and the cares stinks especially among the seniors.The politicians you hear tell you that are all bullshit anyway.You are lucky you live in a place that provides good health care service.
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post #8 of 65
6/3/11 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Nope, but do you really think the money you spend on insurance is less than the money I spend in taxes that goes toward my health care?

I have no idea. I was just checking to see if you really thought that's how much those things truly cost*.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So you're getting double dipped.

How do you figure that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's a question of inefficiency, corruption and greed (of private enterprise -- the health care and pharma lobby and providers -- not the government), which are rampant in the US. It's not a question of government management in and of itself, which can actually be pretty damned efficient as long as it's not being controlled by the big business lobby.

I've contended all along that the problem in the US is the combination of "private" business and government (essentially corporatism or corporate socialism) in the healthcare and health insurance markets. Get government out and you'll have plenty of efficiency.


*It is important to note that cost is not always about nor can always be measured in the monetary exchange and expense.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 65
6/3/11 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Nice to see some of America catching up-

"As Gov. Peter Shumlin took his spot on the granite steps of the Vermont State House, a row of people fanned out behind him wearing bright red t-shirts proclaiming, “Health care is a human right.” The slogan sounded noble, and wildly unrealistic. Until the governor spoke.

“We gather here today to launch the first single-payer health care system in America,” began Shumlin, a Democrat who has been governor barely four months. “To do in Vermont what has taken too long: have a health care system, the best in the world, that treats health care as a right, and not a privilege."

Moments later, the governor made history, signing a law that sets Vermont on a course to provide health care for all of its 620,000 citizens through a European-style single payer system called Green Mountain Care.

Gov. Shumlin suddenly called for the several hundred people who had gathered to come closer as he signed the bill. “Everybody in,” he shouted.

“Nobody out!” came the reflexive reply, a call and response version of a slogan of the grassroots single-payer campaign. Shumlin chuckled, then made the single-payer bill the law of the Green Mountain State."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...er-health-care

This is an example of faulty leftist thinking. We claim something is a right, then someone gives a high sounding speech, and then someone signs a piece of paper giving people a new entitlement paid for by some taking property from other people (violating their true rights.) And we then assume we are correct that what we claimed is true because someone signed a piece of paper.



With fallacious thinking like this how can we possibly go wrong?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #10 of 65
6/3/11 at 8:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Who ever told you the U.S. health care is the best in the world is completely stupid in their thinking. It is down right crappy.The fees are exorbitant and the cares stinks especially among the seniors.The politicians you hear tell you that are all bullshit anyway.You are lucky you live in a place that provides good health care service.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

We have just about the best healthcare system in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

The US health system, however bizarre it may be, is the best in the world. I don't see why there's cry for change.

LOL
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post #11 of 65
6/3/11 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

With fallacious thinking like this how can we possibly go wrong?

It all stems from the erroneous belief that government is a granter of rights rather than a protector of rights.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #12 of 65
6/3/11 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It all stems from the erroneous belief that government is a granter of rights rather than a protector of rights.

Agreed. The other problem is retaining the logical inconsistency of having "rights" that require you to infringe on other rights (of other people of course.)

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post #13 of 65
6/3/11 at 8:50am
Maybe he hasn't checked in yet, but I'm wondering where BR is to rip tonton for using anecdotal example as...wait...let me quote exactly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

Anecdotal evidence does not a reliable statistic make.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #14 of 65
6/3/11 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Nice to see some of America catching up-

"As Gov. Peter Shumlin took his spot on the granite steps of the Vermont State House, a row of people fanned out behind him wearing bright red t-shirts proclaiming, Health care is a human right. The slogan sounded noble, and wildly unrealistic. Until the governor spoke.

We gather here today to launch the first single-payer health care system in America, began Shumlin, a Democrat who has been governor barely four months. To do in Vermont what has taken too long: have a health care system, the best in the world, that treats health care as a right, and not a privilege."

Moments later, the governor made history, signing a law that sets Vermont on a course to provide health care for all of its 620,000 citizens through a European-style single payer system called Green Mountain Care.

Gov. Shumlin suddenly called for the several hundred people who had gathered to come closer as he signed the bill. Everybody in, he shouted.

Nobody out! came the reflexive reply, a call and response version of a slogan of the grassroots single-payer campaign. Shumlin chuckled, then made the single-payer bill the law of the Green Mountain State."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...er-health-care


There are so many problems with universal, single-payer care, it's not even funny. We have the government deciding who gets which treatment, and when. Many countries have long waiting periods, and many patients are denied care in favor of younger, stronger patients. We've already seen problems in states that have tried this. Example: Taxachussetts.

The other problem is this: "Who gets to decide when enough is enough?" In other words, taxpayers pay whether or not they use the system. They can get heart surgery, cancer treatment, or a cast on their arm...it's all the same. No one cares what it costs, because no one SEES what it costs, thereby eliminating any incentive to save money.

Single-payer also eliminates healthy competition between doctors and hospitals. This is one thing that has made our medical care the best in the world. We don't have a medical system problem...we have an insurance problem. That is what should be addressed. Of course, we're addressing it the wrong way. O-bam-ination-care is just that...it's worst of all worlds. We still have people and companies that are paying ridiculous premiums. Why? Because we expect health insurance to cover everything. It's like expecting your car insurance to cover oil changes, car washes and gas.

The answer, I think, is to get employers out of the healthcare business. Offer tax credits for purchasing insurance. And no, free unlimited healthcare is not "a right."
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post #15 of 65
6/3/11 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Nope, but do you really think the money you spend on insurance is less than the money I spend in taxes that goes toward my health care?

I would bet your taxes are far more than my insurance cost.

Quote:

On top of that, do you really think more tax money in Hong Kong is spent on medical matters than in the US? So you're getting double dipped. I'm not, because we have government health care, and I don't have to pay insane insurance premiums and deductibles (though I do choose to pay for extra coverage, which didn't apply in this case)

With Obamacare, we ARE getting double-dipped. We're paying (or will be) new taxes on healthcare AND paying premiums.

Quote:

Also, do you think the procedure room, equipment, doctor's fee, administrative fee, and medication costs are one tenth as much outside of the US as they are in your last "rich" country in the world that still doesn't provide public health care?

That's not relevant. We still have better facilities on the whole.

Quote:

It's a question of inefficiency, corruption and greed (of private enterprise -- the health care and pharma lobby and providers -- not the government), which are rampant in the US. It's not a question of government management in and of itself, which can actually be pretty damned efficient as long as it's not being controlled by the big business lobby.

You're telling me the government can run 1/6th of the US economy better than the private sector? Don't get me wrong, I take the point about the Pharma lobby, but still...private enterprise is not the problem.

I'm glad your system works for you. What you need to consider is that the US is not Hong Kong. We simply cannot afford single-payer care. We can't even afford the programs we already have.

By the way, I said above that healthcare is not a right. Well, I take that back to an extent. It is, but only at a basic level. We have that now in the US. Anyone can go to an emergency room with or without the ability to pay. But no, I don't think unlimited preventative care is a right. It's one of the reasons people work hard to provide for their families....they want the ability to get the best health coverage.
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post #16 of 65
6/3/11 at 11:00am
I don't think I will ever understand the thought process of people who advocate government monopolies over free markets and call it freedom.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #17 of 65
6/3/11 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

The answer, I think, is to get employers out of the healthcare business. Offer tax credits for purchasing insurance. And no, free unlimited healthcare is not "a right."

Getting employers out of it is an important first step. Buy health insurance just like you buy any other insurance. This eliminates one major concern: Being stuck at an employer for health insurance reasons. It's interesting that it is government income tax policy that started this and continues it.

A second big boost would be to allow insurance to be sold across state lines. Invoke the interstate commerce clause they like so much to say..."Eh...no more barriers to trade among the states on insurance."

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post #18 of 65
6/3/11 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Many countries have long waiting periods...

It's interesting that many ignore this cost (and it is a cost...because time spent is just as real as money spent...just often ignored or hard to see.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #19 of 65
6/3/11 at 9:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

All three of my children's births went very smoothly. There was paperwork after the fact and the total cost of the pregnancy, not the birth, but the entire pregnancy and visits was about 300 per child. My work covered all my health insurance except the last child when I had to pay $60 per month for the same coverage. I have also had the opposite experience.

It's great that your employer offers this benefit.

What happens to the Walmart employee with the useless minimal coverage offered solely for the purpose of PR (for a fee, which many likely choose not to pay)?

What happens to the cleaner hired by the local grocery to scrub the alley?

The US system totally and absolutely fails these people.
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post #20 of 65
6/3/11 at 9:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It's interesting that many ignore this cost (and it is a cost...because time spent is just as real as money spent...just often ignored or hard to see.)

Lucky for you this wasn't ignored in this thread.

Anyway, I must say that I strongly support the Hong Kong model where there is a non-means tested public option as well as a free market option for those willing to pay. It's far better for the rich and for those who want to pay for upgraded services than the Canadian system. The Swiss system is also good, but not quite as much as the Hong Kong system.
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post #21 of 65
6/3/11 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's great that your employer offers this benefit.

What happens to the Walmart employee with the useless minimal coverage offered solely for the purpose of PR (for a fee, which many likely choose not to pay)?

What happens to the cleaner hired by the local grocery to scrub the alley?

The US system totally and absolutely fails these people.

Yes, it is great. And a far shake better than you expected it seems by your opening post. The medical system in the US is not broken. The care available is tremendous. However there are flaws that should be worked on. The cost is one big one.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #22 of 65
6/3/11 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Lucky for you this wasn't ignored in this thread.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Anyway, I must say that I strongly support the Hong Kong model where there is a non-means tested public option as well as a free market option for those willing to pay. It's far better for the rich and for those who want to pay for upgraded services than the Canadian system. The Swiss system is also good, but not quite as much as the Hong Kong system.

As I've mentioned in other threads when HK has come up, while I believe that free-market solutions in the health care and health insurance market will work fine...even with that, I would trade the current overall HK model (the freest economy in the world for more than 10 years running) for the current US model (free but dropping fast)...much lower tax rates...much lower government spending...much freer trade...etc. I've even considered moving to HK (and it may still happen...but there are a couple of other places higher on the list for other reasons.)

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post #23 of 65
6/3/11 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

What happens to the Walmart employee with the useless minimal coverage offered solely for the purpose of PR (for a fee, which many likely choose not to pay)?

Setting aside your unsupported editorialized claims about Walmart's health care plans for its employees...are you really blaming Walmart for people NOT choosing to participate in it when they have the option?

Health insurance needs to be separated from employment (this is a result of government tax policy)...and the Feds need to break the barrier of inter-state health insurance sales.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #24 of 65
6/3/11 at 11:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Setting aside your unsupported editorialized claims about Walmart's health care plans for its employees...are you really blaming Walmart for people NOT choosing to participate in it when they have the option?

Have you actually looked at the Walmart 'affordable health care option' and read reviews of it that say employees are actually better off without it?
Quote:
Health insurance needs to be separated from employment (this is a result of government tax policy)...and the Feds need to break the barrier of inter-state health insurance sales.

Agreed on both counts. And thirdly, a public option needs to be available for those people who can't afford insurance from any state, or those people who insurers refuse to insure (assuming they would have that freedom, as I'm sure you would insist upon).
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post #25 of 65
6/4/11 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And thirdly, a public option needs to be available for those people who can't afford insurance from any state, or those people who insurers refuse to insure (assuming they would have that freedom, as I'm sure you would insist upon).

Assuming this problem actually exists then, sure, maybe.

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post #26 of 65
6/4/11 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Have you actually looked at the Walmart 'affordable health care option' and read reviews of it that say employees are actually better off without it?

Who wrote those reviews?

Quote:

Agreed on both counts. And thirdly, a public option needs to be available for those people who can't afford insurance from any state, or those people who insurers refuse to insure (assuming they would have that freedom, as I'm sure you would insist upon).

Sorry for the randomness in advance...

How do we define "can't afford?" Don't you mean means testing? And what level of coverage should be available? How do we pay for it?

The fact is that almost anyone can afford hospitalization coverage, especially those under 50. For a few hundred dollars a month (or much less if one is younger), one can get a pretty decent policy that covers major medical needs. And, as you know (I think), SCHIP already covers kids whose families make up to 80,000 a year in some cases.

Getting back to the "rights" issue. My question is this: Where is "healthcare is a right" written in US law? Is it in the Constitution? Of course not. And if it is a right, what else is a right? What else in life can we consume without concern for cost? Food? Clothing? Since we all need to work, isn't transportation a right also? Doesn't that mean the government should buy the poor cars? Plane tickets? You can see where the slippery slope comes in.

Compassion dictates that we must treat the sick w/o regard for payment. But I disagree that everyone has the same right to every kind of care they want. I chose a profession with moderate pay and great benefits. One reason is that I want to take care of my family wrt healthcare. Why should someone that doesn't work as hard or chose another profession get the same benefits I get?

One last thought on the slippery slope: I wonder where this "right" ends. For example, I went to the opthamologist/optometrist this morning. My vision benefits are not as good as my regular health benefits, so I chose glasses that are a bit cheaper. I paid for contacts nearly out of pocket. My point is...if this benefit becomes "free", is there a limit that people can spend on glasses...or can they get anything they want?
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post #27 of 65
6/4/11 at 8:28am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

As I've mentioned in other threads when HK has come up, while I believe that free-market solutions in the health care and health insurance market will work fine...even with that, I would trade the current overall HK model (the freest economy in the world for more than 10 years running) for the current US model (free but dropping fast)...much lower tax rates...much lower government spending...much freer trade...etc. I've even considered moving to HK (and it may still happen...but there are a couple of other places higher on the list for other reasons.)

If you have daughters don't move there, they get groped on the subway.
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post #28 of 65
6/4/11 at 9:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If you have daughters don't move there, they get groped on the subway.

LOL right... I think you've confused Hong Kong with Japan.
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post #29 of 65
6/4/11 at 10:07am
Wow. Just wow.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #30 of 65
6/4/11 at 10:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Who wrote those reviews?

Dozens of people far more qualified than you or I. Who wrote all the reviews saying the Walmart bottom-of-the-barrel plan was good for workers? Oh yeah. Nobody.
Quote:
How do we define "can't afford?" Don't you mean means testing?

Nope. Although it's aimed toward those who don't have enough income to pay for it, i.e. "can't afford it", it's available to all to reduce administrative costs, eliminate investigation and legal costs, and eliminate the chance that someone who really needs help falls through the cracks.
Quote:
What level of coverage should be available?

Basic health care and emergency care, as defined by the WHO.
Quote:
How do we pay for it?

Taxes, dipshit. The same way it's paid for in every modern country in the world besides the US.
Quote:
The fact is that almost anyone can afford hospitalization coverage, especially those under 50.

Is that a "fact"?
Quote:
For a few hundred dollars a month (or much less if one is younger), one can get a pretty decent policy that covers major medical needs.

Are you so ignorant that you aren't aware of how many people don't have anywhere near "a few hundred dollars a month" to spare? SERIOUSLY!?
Quote:
And, as you know (I think), SCHIP already covers kids whose families make up to 80,000 a year in some cases.

So, how does it help the parents of those kids?
Quote:
Getting back to the "rights" issue. My question is this: Where is "healthcare is a right" written in US law? Is it in the Constitution? Of course not. And if it is a right, what else is a right? What else in life can we consume without concern for cost? Food? Clothing? Since we all need to work, isn't transportation a right also? Doesn't that mean the government should buy the poor cars? Plane tickets? You can see where the slippery slope comes in.

How empathetic of you.
Quote:
Compassion dictates that we must treat the sick w/o regard for payment. But I disagree that everyone has the same right to every kind of care they want.

So do I. But that's not what we're talking about here, so why the straw man?
Quote:
I chose a profession with moderate pay and great benefits. One reason is that I want to take care of my family wrt healthcare. Why should someone that doesn't work as hard or chose another profession get the same benefits I get?

First of all, you're incredibly elitist and unbelievably naive if you honestly believe everybody who doesn't earn as much as you do doesn't work as hard as you do.

Secondly, if you pay for more than what they pay for, you should get better than they do. Everyone should have the right to go to a hospital and get treatment when they're sick, and not just for emergencies. But only those who choose to pay for it should get the benefit of their choice of doctor, or a private hospital room. There are levels of care, and basic care should be available for all.
Quote:
One last thought on the slippery slope: I wonder where this "right" ends. For example, I went to the opthamologist/optometrist this morning. My vision benefits are not as good as my regular health benefits, so I chose glasses that are a bit cheaper. I paid for contacts nearly out of pocket. My point is...if this benefit becomes "free", is there a limit that people can spend on glasses...or can they get anything they want?

"Slippery slope" arguments have always been idiotic.

Besides, there are fully prescribed glasses available for $25 including lenses and eye testing. Why should this be an issue? No one is going to expect government coverage to let you choose Prada frames and coated ultralight lenses.
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post #31 of 65
6/4/11 at 10:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Wow. Just wow.

Ok... I know. I mean "stereotypes" of Japan. Mea Culpa.
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post #32 of 65
6/4/11 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How empathetic of you.

SDW2001, in case you haven't been following along the whole time, what tonton means here by your lack of empathy is that you did not talk about his spouse (or significant other) and compare her (or him) to curdled dairy products of some kind.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #33 of 65
6/4/11 at 10:54am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

LOL right... I think you've confused Hong Kong with Japan.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Hon...om=moreStories

One of my relatives lived there, and she stopped taking the subway for that reason. Besides that, I really like Hong Kong - everywhere has a downside.
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post #34 of 65
6/4/11 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

SDW2001, in case you haven't been following along the whole time, what tonton means here by your lack of empathy is that you did not talk about his spouse (or significant other) and compare her (or him) to curdled dairy products of some kind.

I really thought it meant saying that people who think teaching creationism and denial of evolution is child abuse couldn't get laid.

Or have you never heard of context and satire?
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post #35 of 65
6/4/11 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I really thought it meant saying that people who think teaching creationism and denial of evolution is child abuse couldn't get laid.

Or have you never heard of context and satire?

I know about context and satire. I also know about insults.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #36 of 65
6/4/11 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Hon...om=moreStories

One of my relatives lived there, and she stopped taking the subway for that reason. Besides that, I really like Hong Kong - everywhere has a downside.

From your "story":
Quote:
While the newspaper said official figures show reported cases of assault on the subway had fallen from 105 in 2001 to 38 in 2003, Lam claims the real number is far higher.

"My experience ... shows that nine out of 10 women have experienced different kinds of indecent assaults," she reportedly said.

Groping is honestly not a problem here. If it happens, and it's extremely rare -- honestly -- it's a terrible thing to happen to anyone.

However, I strongly believe this random, unsupported, empty claim of "nine out of ten" is first of all a gross exaggeration, and secondly, probably includes "bedroom eyes" as a form of indecent assault.

38 women reported indecent assault on the train in 2003. That's out of the several billion trips women take on the subway annually. Even if groping is under-reported 100 fold, the statistics do not show that there is any risk. I'm convinced you stand a far greater chance of being the victim of a crime on trains in Los Angeles, New York, Paris, or pretty much anywhere else in the world.

Was your "relative" assaulted? Or was it just fear? Or uncomfortableness at being looked at, perhaps?
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post #37 of 65
6/4/11 at 11:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I know about context and satire. I also know about insults.

So you know the context of my satirical cottage cheese post, then. You know that it was a tit-for-tat response to an unsolicited, and totally uncalled-for insult by Nick. An insult by Nick that was purely insult, in that it was not a satirical response to another post. Good to know.
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post #38 of 65
6/4/11 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Dozens of people far more qualified than you or I. Who wrote all the reviews saying the Walmart bottom-of-the-barrel plan was good for workers? Oh yeah. Nobody.

Let's see them. Let's examine some sources.

Quote:

Nope. Although it's aimed toward those who don't have enough income to pay for it, i.e. "can't afford it", it's available to all to reduce administrative costs, eliminate investigation and legal costs, and eliminate the chance that someone who really needs help falls through the cracks.

Income-based assistance is what's wrong with our social safety net today.

Quote:

Basic health care and emergency care, as defined by the WHO.

Fuck the WHO...for multiple reasons. Also, define "basic." "Basic" is certainly not what those who want universal care are arguing for.

Quote:

Taxes, dipshit. The same way it's paid for in every modern country in the world besides the US.[/quote[

Who's the dipshit...the person who wants to know where the money is going to come from (since we're broke), or the person who takes that to mean he doesn't know how government raises revenue in general? We're out of money. We have $60 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and massive deficits and debt. We don't have the damn money, period. Oh, and as for the rest of the world, they are not our country. For one thing, they don't have the need to protect themselves and their interests...not as long as the good ol' bully the U.S is around.

[quote

Is that a "fact"?

Are you so ignorant that you aren't aware of how many people don't have anywhere near "a few hundred dollars a month" to spare? SERIOUSLY!?

If we got employers and the government out of it, they WOULD. They're already paying that much in taxes that don't benefit them much.

Quote:

So, how does it help the parents of those kids?

It doesn't. So?

Quote:

How empathetic of you.

I didn't realize that we had an "empathy" amendment.

Quote:

So do I. But that's not what we're talking about here, so why the straw man?

We absolutely are. At least, we should be, because someone has the make a decision somewhere about rationed care. It's only way to keep such a system solvent. We've seen it in Great Britain with long wait periods and denied procedures. "Death panels" are inevitable.

Quote:

First of all, you're incredibly elitist and unbelievably naive if you honestly believe everybody who doesn't earn as much as you do doesn't work as hard as you do.

I never said that/ Perhaps you misinterpreted.

Quote:

Secondly, if you pay for more than what they pay for, you should get better than they do. Everyone should have the right to go to a hospital and get treatment when they're sick, and not just for emergencies.

They already do.

Quote:
But only those who choose to pay for it should get the benefit of their choice of doctor, or a private hospital room. There are levels of care, and basic care should be available for all.

Again, define basic care.

Quote:

"Slippery slope" arguments have always been idiotic.

Besides, there are fully prescribed glasses available for $25 including lenses and eye testing. Why should this be an issue? No one is going to expect government coverage to let you choose Prada frames and coated ultralight lenses.

Oh, really? YES, they WILL. This is what happens when the consumer doesn't care about cost. We already have some of that now, because patients have no idea what the insurance company pays and what the doctor bills in many cases.

tonton, the effects of universal coverage are clear...at least in most countries. Britain's system is in crisis. Take Taxachussetts, which has Romney Care:

Quote:
The average wait for an appointment with an internist was 48 days, which was five days shorter than last year, but the average wait for family medicine was 36 days, a week longer than in the 2010 survey

and of course....

Quote:
Medical students are eschewing the grueling hours and lower pay that primary care often entails in favor of specialties that offered a more consistent work schedule and quicker path to repay medical school debt, experts say.

from here


By the way: Please realize this whole conversation is moot. The US will not put private insurance companies out of business. It's simply not going to happen. And I standby my point that universal care will be more wasteful, corrupt, expensive and ineffective than the current system. Moreover, it's not a Constitutional responsibility of our government. Of course, this why folks like you LOVE Obama, because he advocates for "redistributive change" and changing out system from a "charter of negative liberties" to one that is mandated to "do things on our behalf."
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post #39 of 65
6/4/11 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So you know the context of my satirical cottage cheese post, then. You know that it was a tit-for-tat response to an unsolicited, and totally uncalled-for insult by Nick. An insult by Nick that was purely insult, in that it was not a satirical response to another post. Good to know.

Whatever. Make all the excuses and rationalizations you want for your insults.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #40 of 65
6/4/11 at 11:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Whatever. Make all the excuses and rationalizations you want for your insults.

Whatever, keep criticizing my posts because of ideological opposition, while never criticizing the posts, like this one, of people with whom you more often agree:

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

How come all the people swearing it is child abuse can never actually get some other member of the species to procreate with them?
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