State of the Union tonight...place your bets - Page 6

I am in no way trying to derail this thread into an abortion thread. I respect the original author of the thread. I was responding to what tonton said.

What I will say on the matter is this:

We have safty standards for autos as to ensure safety to as high a level as is attainable when put into practice by auto manufacturers and speed limits set by authorities as to ensure public safety. Is this a waste of time simply because some will still die in auto accidents? No. It is done to protect the public to the best that we can as a society. We have anti-lock brakes, air bags, crumple zones, and lowered speed limits in place in many cases to promote the safety of the public and to reduce needless deaths due to traffic accidents. Yes some will continue to die as is seen by all. The logic of making abortion legal because people will still perform them in a non-legal way if it were not a legal practice is weak. What an utter weak argument. We as a society do not stop our efforts to improve via technology and regulations the task of looking out for drivers and passengers simply because it can be said "well,,, people will still die in auto related accidents" That is a nonsense filled and wrong logic to apply. Nothing is different with the abortion issue with those who promote adoption and reject the notion of abortion being needed as a method of birth termination simply for a means of an un-ready or ill-prepared mother to dispose of her responsibilities as a birth giver to her un-born child. Are there exceptions to rule? of course. If the life of the mother is at risk I support the mother's right to defend her life. Much after that we are making excuses to murder needlessly.

Fellowship

Fellowship - some statistics:

According to the <a href="http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/MSM_97_16/MSM_97_16_chapter5.en.html" target="_blank">World Health Organization</a>:

"80 000 women die each year from complications following unsafe abortions (Table 2 and Figure 3). Unsafe abortion is, therefore, a leading cause of the almost 600 000 maternal deaths estimated to occur each year. Globally one in eight pregnancy-related deaths, an estimated 13%, are due to an unsafe abortion."

The article goes on to say that there are virtually no deaths due to unsafe abortion in North America, "where abortion is legal, safe and relatively accessible". Now you're going to take that away? Are you so ignorant that you think outlawing abortion will convince all women not to abort?

[quote]Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>Shawn, whether I "set it up" or not, I still am going to look to those truly knowledgeable and qualified in these matters over celebrities and the like.

And Ms. Sarandon (and others sharing her opinions) certainly are not being kept from having their side heard. She has a powerful voice and stage to shout it from. A nice little perk from being a famous entertainment figure.

Still doesn't change anything really.

I can set people up to knock them down all I want if the mood strikes me. She doesn't represent or speak for me and my views.

But thanks anyway for more lessons in how to post. I'll file them in the appropriate place.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

You posted a strawman argument, Pscates. That's created when you misrepresent things then knock the stuffing out of them. Susan Sarandon is not Colin Powell's equal by any stretch of imagination. So OF COURSE you'd rather listen to him than some lay-activist. Mentioning some anti-war person of more credibility would have knocked your argument to smithereens.

God. If I ever did that in a debate tournament I'd be dead so to speak.

[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>We have safty standards...</strong><hr></blockquote>

What you're blatantly ignoring is that women will die.

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>Fellowship - some statistics:

According to the <a href="http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/MSM_97_16/MSM_97_16_chapter5.en.html" target="_blank">World Health Organization</a>:

"80 000 women die each year from complications following unsafe abortions (Table 2 and Figure 3). Unsafe abortion is, therefore, a leading cause of the almost 600 000 maternal deaths estimated to occur each year. Globally one in eight pregnancy-related deaths, an estimated 13%, are due to an unsafe abortion."

The article goes on to say that there are virtually no deaths due to unsafe abortion in North America, "where abortion is legal, safe and relatively accessible". Now you're going to take that away? Are you so ignorant that you think outlawing abortion will convince all women not to abort?</strong><hr></blockquote>

So we should hand out clean needles for drug addicts. as a matter of fact we should buy them their drugs to feed their habit as to prevent honest hard working people the heartache of finding themselves the victom of theft and other crime commited as a by-product of drug habit support?

I could go on and on with example after example how the government or society "could" support and give benefits to all kinds of actions because if the government or society were to practice the business of "helping" to support choices made by people as to reduce harm to others it would somehow reduce the harm factor in each case.

So you are for a big nanny state that supports all the ill choices and not only supports but promotes and facilitates the practices as such to minimize the harm to society? Sounds like a big nanny state to me.

You can do all that you want and we will help you do it. Drum Roll.... and the icing on the cake is.... your consequences are null and void because we the nanny state will help you to manage your ill choices?

Come on. Why not advocate responsibility? Self-control? Why not promote healthy alternative choices?

Why co-sponsor all poor choices?

This is a big divide between many liberals and many conservatives.

Fellowship

What ignorant people don't want to know:

"Pain and danger are the hallmarks of unsafe abortion - as many as 550 women die every day from trying to end unwanted pregnancies. Their deaths are needless and preventable. When abortion can be performed early in pregnancy by a skilled person using modern techniques, it is safer than having your tonsils out. Laws against abortion only succeed in making it painful and dangerous. They do not stop it happening."

From <a href="http://www.newint.org/issue303/abortion.html" target="_blank">this</a> link.

This is fact, not opinion, based on worldwide statistics. Women worldwide die because of anti-abortion laws which deny them the right to a safe procedure that they have already determined without a doubt that they will undergo whether it's legal or not.

A case study in Ireland of the cruelty of anti-abortion law (from the same link as above):

[quote]Abortions are illegal in Ireland. But ever since 1967, when abortion became legal in Britain, thousands of Irish women have been coming to England every year to end unwanted pregnancies. The schoolgirl, raped by a school-friend's father in his car, pleaded with her parents to take her to London for an abortion.

Because of the pending trial for rape, the family had told the Irish police of their planned trip to London and its purpose. This tip-off sparked a furore in 1992 which swept Ireland into months of political crisis and instability.

The family were in London when the Irish police phoned them. 'You have to come home,' they ordered. The girl talked of suicide. The police officer said that going ahead could mean prison. The threat had been prompted by a Dublin High Court ruling that was based on the fact that the Irish constitution defined abortion as an illegal act. 'Miss X', as she was known to the public, found herself caught up in a nightmare, as Ireland's top lawyers wrangled about the Irish constitution and the rights of a raped child threatening to kill herself.

The world - and indeed the Irish public - watched with absolute horror. Many of those who had voted for the special constitutional ban on abortion - a much more far-reaching step than making it simply a crime - had never imagined that it would result in such cruelty. After weeks of courtroom argument the girl was permitted to leave the limelight and to end her pregnancy.<hr></blockquote>

[quote]Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce:
<strong>Mentioning some anti-war person of more credibility would have knocked your argument to smithereens.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I understand. I just can't find one that doesn't make me want to stuff cotton into my ears and jump off a cliff.



But seriously, I've been watching the news all this time, Shawn, on all the 24/7 cable channels, the networks, reading opinion pieces (print and online) and I'm quite aware of credible, knowledgeable anti-war types and their opinions and stand on the subject. I don't know their names (nobody outside Washingon, DC and/or journalistic/academic circles probably does either), so I say "Sarandon" or "Asner" or "Penn" as a visible, vocal and well-known opponent over the many less-known, faceless former military members, professors, activists, authors, policy wonks, diplomats, retired State Department people, think tank types, etc. I see appearing on shows lately.

And let's be honest: your average person (particularly a teen or more shallow star-struck type who subscribes to People because they want to keep up with who Julia Roberts is banging) is probably more influenced (or impressed) by a well-known Hollywood or music industray anti-war voice than any of the above types I talk about. If I don't know most of these people's names - and I tend to keep up on things pretty okay - your average joe type on the street isn't going to know - or care - what some person they've never seen (from some organization they've never heard of) has to say.

You should know, as much as anyone, the majority of people don't know their butt from a can of corn, nor do they delve TOO deep into things if they don't absolutely have to. But wrap it up, put a Hollywood face on it and it goes down much smoother.

Ms. Sarandon paid for airtime preceding the address last night, so she is kind of putting herself out there and is representing that other side. So she's fair game, as it were.

And they're all getting their say and voicing their side. But I've seen plenty of them and they haven't convinced ME, you know?

Again, I don't agree with their take on it, that's all.

I believe - and agree with - how the President presented things last evening.

I'm allowed to do that.



[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>So we should hand out clean needles for drug addicts.</strong> Yes. <strong> as a matter of fact we should buy them their drugs to feed their habit as to prevent honest hard working people the heartache of finding themselves the victom of theft and other crime commited as a by-product of drug habit support[qb] No.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How about handing out unbiased, scientific analysis of the dangers of drugs with every needle handed out?

How about stamping "abstinance is an option" onto every state-funded free condom?

How about providing free counselling for every intended abortion? Many states have such provisions on the books, as Roe v Wade completely allows such a condition.

The problem is that you can't eradicate something through prohibition. History has proved this time and time again.

That's cool. Try that Wesley Clark guy. I'd match your former general with my former general.

[quote]Originally posted by BR:
If the anti-choicers win the battle, they effectively say that their opinion matters more than anyone else's and screw those that disagree. Your right to dissent is hereby revoked.

So, are you for freedom or fascism? Choice or anti-choice?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>


I am for freedom but not freedom to murder. It is very simple BR. If some nut down the street thinks it is his right to dissent and murder all the cats in the neighborhood that dissent is revoked also. This is not about fascism at all it is about a respect for ethics and humanity. It is about self-control and the value of life.

Fellowship

[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>
He sure like to criticize other countries but can't handle those pesky foreigners criticizing his.

Also, if you have the title of the New York Times article, you can search google news for it and read it without having to deal with logging in.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the tip!

Scott, Matsu, And ZMench already showed me what they're all about in Samantha's thread.

If I toss a condom with millions of live sperm into the toilet, is that murder?

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>

The problem is that you can't eradicate something through prohibition. History has proved this time and time again.</strong><hr></blockquote>

BUNK that is false.

Remember slavery in America? We prohibit it today after much debate, fighting and blood.

Slavery in America has been eradicated due to the bold leadership of those who were determined to get to their goal of serving humanity at large.

Fellowship

I can't imagine how many billion kids I killed when I was a teenager in the bathroom.

[quote]<strong>If I toss a condom with millions of live sperm into the toilet, is that murder?<hr></blockquote></strong>

Only if they're French.



[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

Is the morning after pill murder? Answer me that so I can truly gauge exactly where you are so I can formulate a proper response.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I will not quantify via terms of conception be it a short period of time or a longer peroid of time the validity of my claim that abortion is wrong and it is murder.

Sorry.

Fellowship

Fellowship why don't you sign on iChat anymore?

[quote]Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce:
<strong>Fellowship why don't you sign on iChat anymore?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey man sorry, I have not used my iBook in weeks. I am using my PC lately.

I will log on soon!

Fellows

Dude sign on AIM. I bought a digital camera.

[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>
The morning after pill works in the following three ways:

• Stopping or delaying the ovaries from releasing an egg
• Preventing sperm from fertilising any egg that has been released
• Stopping a fertilised egg from attaching itself to the womb lining.

In the third case, sperm has already met egg and zygote has already been formed. Your idea of life has already begun.

So, answer me. Is the morning after pill an instrument of murder?</strong><hr></blockquote>

BR there is a reason why I can not answer that conclusivly. As you know not all conceptions make it to full term naturally aside from the whole topic of abortion. That is something that is out of the hands of the mother. Still born children etc. To aide and or promote the termination of a living zygote to me is a form of murder of a new life. Would that zygote have made it to full maturity and be a healthy born child? I can not know that or tell you. What I can tell you is that as I said above to aide and or promote the termination of a new life is to me murder.

Fellowship

[quote] my claim that abortion is wrong and it is murder. <hr></blockquote>

for rape an incest too?? g

menstruation is murder


my new bumper sticker


g

Do you believe in fate, Fellowship?

Because damn, that opens up a whole other can of worms. If it was "meant to be" that my daughter be impregnated by her boyfriend... and I lock her in the basement to keep her away from the bastard.. is that "murdering" the baby?

I don't know. I'm asking.

hey mur, what if you cut of your daughter's boyfriends balls...is that murder?

g

[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

So, in the interest of consistency, will you campaign to ban the morning after pill as well as abortion?

Also, do you believe that women who smoke or drink while pregnant should be put in jail?

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

BR, While I view it as murder I am not an activist in the area as to "enforce" my views. I do vote for people I respect and agree with and what they do when in power is up to them. Will I march, demonstrate or organize on the issue? No. I will however in love try to share with others why I believe it is a tragic shame.

Fellowship

[quote]Originally posted by thegelding:
<strong>hey mur, what if you cut of your daughter's boyfriends balls...is that murder?

g</strong><hr></blockquote>


I think he'd say so.

not that i am planning anything, but with two teenage daughters i would like to know the "moral" aspect of this just in case....g

[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

So which is it? Do you want to (indirectly) enforce your views and make abortion illegal or not?

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I want to share my views in the hopes of changing the hearts and minds of supporters of abortion on the matter. I do not take a stand on the legality or lack thereof of abortion. As others here have said on the forum women will have them legal or not. Again this is why I employ the simple tactic of attempting to share my view in love with others. Will all agree with my outlook on the matter? No and that is reality.

Fellowship

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>

BUNK that is false.

Remember slavery in America? We prohibit it today after much debate, fighting and blood.

Slavery in America has been eradicated due to the bold leadership of those who were determined to get to their goal of serving humanity at large.

Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you ignorant of enslaved workers in sweatshops? Enslaved girls in illegal prostitution rings? Illegal immigrants forced to clean relatives' homes? Slavery is very real in the US.

And in the UK it's even more obvious:
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1644406.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1644406.stm</a>

But indeed abortion is special because it is not as visible as slavery. Do you honestly think women won't abort? Could you imagine smuggling in a slave and keeping them locked up and never, ever being found out? Of course not? Could you imagine going to an illegal clinic and having an abortion without anyone ever knowing? Of course you could. These two things cannot be compared.

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>

Are you ignorant of enslaved workers in sweatshops? Enslaved girls in illegal prostitution rings? Illegal immigrants forced to clean relatives' homes? Slavery is very real in the US.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

No not at all and that all bothers me greatly. I was not talking about those examples when I was talking about the slavery of african americans in the history of America. I am sorry I did not make that as clear as I could have I just assumed people would know I was speaking in reference to african american slavery.

Fellowship

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>