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State of the Union tonight...place your bets - Page 7

post #241 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>I want to share my views in the hopes of changing the hearts and minds of supporters of abortion on the matter. I do not take a stand on the legality or lack thereof of abortion. As others here have said on the forum women will have them legal or not. Again this is why I employ the simple tactic of attempting to share my view in love with others. Will all agree with my outlook on the matter? No and that is reality.

Fellowship[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

But Fellowship, with all due respect, all you've said is that "it's wrong" without producing a single shred of evidence or statistics in your favor. You cannot hope to teach anyone this way. Meanwhile, we have shown you time and time again through numbers, studies, historical occurrences and facts that denial of a woman's right to choose is wrong.

You can't even say abortion is wrong because Jesus, or the Bible, or God through any number of means has said so, because they haven't. Only your church has said so. They have imposed their personal (i.e. non-scriptual) beliefs on you, and you have accepted them. You have made that choice.

You cannot deny the right of others to make that choice for themselves. To do so would be anti-Christian.

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: tonton ]</p>
post #242 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

No, you want to just avoid culpability if abortion actually becomes illegal. Sure, go around saying that it isn't up to you but vote for the people that will try to make it illegal. This is a representative system of government we have here. Your vote makes you partially responsible. Voting for someone that wants abortion to be illegal because you agree with his anti-choice stance is just as good as flat out saying that you want it to be illegal.

You cannot hide behind the people you elect...especially if the people you elect take action on the issue that made you vote for them in the first place.

Next I suppose you will be asking me what the definition of is is.</strong><hr></blockquote>


BR I have been very clear and gone to great lengths to explain my stance and views over abortion. I welcome this kind of discussion. As for the issue of our democratic style of government that is a reality of this country.

Yes if I vote for a person and they in effect use their leadership power to make abortion illegal for example then such a move by that government official is done so as a political and democratic move and mandate.

This is true with all issues.

If there were say just out of thin air a group of people in the back woods who thought that african american slavery should return and become a reality once again here in 2003 let's say there were 400,000 of them. Those who wish for the return of slavery. Those people will be out voted by the rest of society in our democratic process. The same is true with any issue including abortion. We do live in a democracy and the majority many times has their way.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #243 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>

But Fellowship, with all due respect, all you've said is that "it's wrong" without producing a single shred of evidence or statistics in your favor. You cannot hope to teach anyone this way. Meanwhile, we have shown you time and time again through numbers, studies, historical occurrences and facts that denial of a woman's right to choose is wrong.

You can't even say abortion is wrong because Jesus, or the Bible, or God through any number of means has said so, because they haven't. Only your church has said so. They have imposed their personal (i.e. non-scriptual) beliefs on you, and you have accepted them. You have made that choice.

You cannot deny the right of others to make that choice for themselves. To do so would be anti-Christian.

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: tonton ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


I do not need charts and graphs or for that matter any data to shore up my viewpoint tonton.

The same is true with the issue of African American Slavery. I would not bother to tell you why I think it is wrong the idea of African American Slavery via statistics and numbers. It is not needed to understand the real reason african american slavery is tragic, wrong, and not humane.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #244 of 306
NEVER MIND PLEASE DON'T ****ING BAN ME FOR THAT

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
post #245 of 306
Hey ibook,

Nice can of worms eh what?

By the way did you play dodge ball as a kid?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #246 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>Yes if I vote for a person and they in effect use their leadership power to make abortion illegal for example then such a move by that government official is done so as a political and democratic move and mandate. </strong><hr></blockquote>

But as a Christian you have the duty to uphold the Christian value of free will. So you have the duty as a Christian to vote against anyone who will take away a person's free will whenever you have that choice.
post #247 of 306
tappity tap tap tap


B-R

c-a-n

y-o-u

h-e-a-r

m-e


tap tap



[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
post #248 of 306
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> mommy NOOO!!!!!!
suck on these bubbles.
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suck on these bubbles.
Reply
post #249 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>

But as a Christian you have the duty to uphold the Christian value of free will. So you have the duty as a Christian to vote against anyone who will take away a person's free will whenever you have that choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually I believe you have that logic understood in a defective way. That simply is not an aplicable logic. As I told BR in an earlier reply the nut down the street does not have the protected freedom or protected right to kill all the cats in the neighborhood. A young man with a gun does not have the protected freedom or protected right to take that gun into a store and kill a clerk. To deny this kind of free will is not anti-Christian nor is the same administration of the restraint of license to abort un-born babies anti-Christian.

Fellowship

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #250 of 306
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>

Actually I believe you have that logic understood in a defective way. That simply is not an aplicable logic. As I told BR in an earlier reply the nut down the street does not have the protected freedom or protected right to kill all the cats in the neighborhood. A young man with a gun does not have the protected freedom or protected right to take that gun into a store and kill a clerk. To deny this kind of free will is not anti-Christian nor is the same administration of the restraint of license to abort un-born babies anti-Christian.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #251 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>


I do not need charts and graphs or for that matter any data to shore up my viewpoint tonton.

The same is true with the issue of African American Slavery. I would not bother to tell you why I think it is wrong the idea of African American Slavery via statistics and numbers. It is not needed to understand the real reason african american slavery is tragic, wrong, and not humane.

Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>

These things cannot be compared. It pains me that I have to explain this to you.

We live in a world of science. All mankind, no matter of what race their ancestry, are human. All have rights all have a choice.

There is no scientific basis in the contention that a three month-old fetus is a self-sustainable human life. But it is a fact that illegal abortion leads to death. To support illegal abortion (and by outlawing legal abortion you are in every effect doing exactly that) you are promoting death. This is a very real reason why "anti-choice" is actually "pro-death".

I'd like to know your own personal views on this. Let's assume birth control was used and has failed. When is first trimester abortion acceptable to you?

When a woman knows she cannot love the child?
When the woman will lose any support of her family (i.e. she will be kicked out, lose her chance for education, support, etc.)?
When the woman is at risk of serious abuse?
When the woman cannot afford to raise the child (I'm sure I don't have to quote adoption statistics for you)?
When the woman has been raped?
When the woman is a victim of incest?
When there is a high risk of birth defects?
When serious defects have actually been detected?
When it is clear the baby will not survive?
When the woman may not survive?

Are any of these acceptable to you? Can't you understand why some or all of these scenarios are a compelling reason for many women to choose abortion? Shouldn't they be allowed to make that choice?
post #252 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No people are free to either follow or break all laws. I only share my views. We all have our say and that is democracy. There are many things I do not agree with but I manage to get by. I suppose you too will not agree with all things that are reality as well.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #253 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>

No people are free to either follow or break all laws. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you forcing your bad grammar on us? "No, people are free either to follow laws or to break laws." Grammar police tip of the day.
post #254 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>

These things cannot be compared. It pains me that I have to explain this to you.

We live in a world of science. All mankind, no matter of what race their ancestry, are human. All have rights all have a choice.

There is no scientific basis in the contention that a three month-old fetus is a self-sustainable human life. But it is a fact that illegal abortion leads to death. To support illegal abortion (and by outlawing legal abortion you are in every effect doing exactly that) you are promoting death. This is a very real reason why "anti-choice" is actually "pro-death".

I'd like to know your own personal views on this. Let's assume birth control was used and has failed. When is first trimester abortion acceptable to you?

When a woman knows she cannot love the child?
When the woman will lose any support of her family (i.e. she will be kicked out, lose her chance for education, support, etc.)?
When the woman is at risk of serious abuse?
When the woman cannot afford to raise the child (I'm sure I don't have to quote adoption statistics for you)?
When the woman has been raped?
When the woman is a victim of incest?
When there is a high risk of birth defects?
When serious defects have actually been detected?
When it is clear the baby will not survive?
When the woman may not survive?

Are any of these acceptable to you? Can't you understand why some or all of these scenarios are a compelling reason for many women to choose abortion? Shouldn't they be allowed to make that choice?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am not going to make that choice for a mother. I am only going to share my view as to why I view abortion as wrong. I do not buy your argument that a stand against abortion is a stand for death. Sure you can view it that way but I do believe there are consequences for actions and many that you list are such as they are. Consequences. I simply advocate that the mother have the baby if it does not harm her life to do so. If she is an unfit person to raise that child the child needs to be adopted. You mention birth defects... I am not an advocate of aborting a baby when it is known that the baby may have birth defects. If I was to support such a thing that would be no different than to advocate killing all people that have defects. I do not subscribe to that ideal.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #255 of 306
Give me a break I'm revising my own paper right now
post #256 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>

Actually I believe you have that logic understood in a defective way. That simply is not an aplicable logic. As I told BR in an earlier reply the nut down the street does not have the protected freedom or protected right to kill all the cats in the neighborhood. A young man with a gun does not have the protected freedom or protected right to take that gun into a store and kill a clerk. To deny this kind of free will is not anti-Christian nor is the same administration of the restraint of license to abort un-born babies anti-Christian.

Fellowship

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fact: A cat is a life. (so's a cow or a rat, but that's beside the point).
Fact: A clerk is a person.
Fact: A 3-month old fetus is not a self-sustainable life.

How can you murder something that is not a self-sustainable life? You can't.

It is a potential life, sure.
So's the sperm being flushed down the toilet or shot into a tissue. So's the potential union between an abstinant couple.
post #257 of 306
Well, "murder" is a legal term used to describe illegal killing. Since abortion is legal, "killing" is the more appropriate term.
post #258 of 306
so why isn't all this abortion crap in the Roe vs. Wade thread anyway?
post #259 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>

So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Haven't you heard it's Hitlerist!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #260 of 306
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>

I am not going to make that choice for a mother. I am only going to share my view as to why I view abortion as wrong. I do not buy your argument that a stand against abortion is a stand for death. Sure you can view it that way but I do believe there are consequences for actions and many that you list are such as they are. Consequences. I simply advocate that the mother have the baby if it does not harm her life to do so. If she is an unfit person to raise that child the child needs to be adopted. You mention birth defects... I am not an advocate of aborting a baby when it is known that the baby may have birth defects. If I was to support such a thing that would be no different than to advocate killing all people that have defects. I do not subscribe to that ideal.

Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just curious...why is it that the christian zealots always want to be busybodies and control every aspect of our lives by passing laws that will prevent us from *gasp* sinning? Why not let us sin all we want and let JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESUS sort it out in the end? Why must you judge when the Big J in the Sky is allegedly supposed to do that? No prostitution? Feh! Don't make it illegal...leave it up to JEEEEESUS. No drugs? Feh! Don't keep them illegal...leave it up to JEEEEESUS.

I think you get the picture.

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</p>

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #261 of 306
Coat hangering a Chicken McNugget looking little thing isn't very nice.
post #262 of 306
jeeesus, I think you ahve a point.
post #263 of 306
Yeah.
post #264 of 306
Yeah.
post #265 of 306
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
post #266 of 306
oh, i get the picture just fine.

looks a hell of a lot like <a href="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame70.html" target="_blank">this</a>
post #267 of 306
Hey, anybody want to go to Dennys? I could go for some chicken nuggets.
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
post #268 of 306
lol everybody has somebody they like to spar with.
post #269 of 306
Get me another beer, wench.

*smack*
post #270 of 306
Scrambled Eggs is sounding good too.
post #271 of 306
seriously thought, it's pathetic and tired at this point. STFU already.
post #272 of 306
Chicken McNugget? I'll never eat at McDonalds again! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #273 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>I am not going to make that choice for a mother.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But by voting to outlaw their choice you are doing exactly that.
post #274 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:
<strong>seriously thought, it's pathetic and tired at this point. STFU already.</strong><hr></blockquote>

who?
post #275 of 306
I remember that because I got in shit for it in grade 6. They showed us a picture of a fetus, and being the class clown (who would have guess THAT).. I said "that looks like a Chicken McNugget!!"

Had to sit through 15 minutes of yelling. Teacher probably lost a McNugget when she was 16 or something.
post #276 of 306
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> What time is in your part of Canada?
post #277 of 306
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #278 of 306
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>
But by voting to outlaw their choice you are doing exactly that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #279 of 306
[quote]Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce:
<strong> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> What time is in your part of Canada?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Half past kiss my ass.

err...

Time to get a watch.

err...

OK. The funny is gone. Good night all.



[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
post #280 of 306
No posts for 5 mins? It seems the life of the party has left us.
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