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Lion Lack of Rosetta Support: Deal Killer?

post #1 of 48
6/6/11 at 4:31pm
Thread Starter 
It is for me. I run too many PPC apps, some of which are not replaceable. A move to Lion would be extremely painful.

What's worse, Apple has notified MobileMe users that "iCloud is free for iOS 5 and OS X Lion users." What does that mean for MobileMe subscribers who don't migrate to Lion? Will we get cut off from the services we've used for years as MobileMe and .Mac? Apparently so, as the notice also says that our MobileMe subscriptions are automatically extended until the end of June 2012. After that it seems to be Lion or nothing.

That's like telling us we can shoot ourselves or cut our throats. Thanks for the choice, Apple!
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post #2 of 48
6/6/11 at 7:00pm
Apple didn't say iCloud would be unavailable for non-Lion/iOS5 users. I would expect chunks of iCloud will be available pay-for-play for non-Lion users, but we won't hear much about that until the full pricing comes out in the fall. I also expect some of the iCloud functionality just plain won't work without Lion, but as long as pricing reflects that it would be reasonable.

However it ends up, going all woe-is-me before the fat lady sings is a bit premature.
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post #3 of 48
6/6/11 at 9:36pm
Thread Starter 
I can only base my conclusions on what Apple has said about iCloud. The terms for Lion users were clearly stated and for non-Lion users, completely unstated. If Apple is going to support any of the features of MobileMe for non-upgraders I think we'd know something of this now. No point in being in denial.

We saw a lot of the same when the first news came out that Apple would be ditching Rosetta in Lion. Many could not believe it was true, given the hardship this would cause for many users. Yet we see today that this is now virtually assured. Many of us are going to be unable to upgrade for this reason alone.

I think Apple has made two very bad decisions, vis-a-vis current and longtime users. Unless Apple abruptly changes these plans then I would say that the outcry is just beginning.
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post #4 of 48
6/6/11 at 9:55pm
As a MobileMe user i'm most concerned about website space.

I like to dabble with iWork and I hope that's still a viable option to host my own basic site. I'm sure much more will be revealed before Fall and I'll be fine.

As for Rosetta ...looks like that ship has sailed.
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post #5 of 48
6/6/11 at 10:00pm
Thread Starter 
That too. This is such an obvious issue that I think we'd know something about how Apple plans on supporting former MobileMe services in Snow Leopard, if they had any such plans. After the cut of Rosetta, I don't have any confidence that all will be fine.
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post #6 of 48
6/7/11 at 5:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

It is for me. I run too many PPC apps, some of which are not replaceable. A move to Lion would be extremely painful.

What's worse, Apple has notified MobileMe users that "iCloud is free for iOS 5 and OS X Lion users." What does that mean for MobileMe subscribers who don't migrate to Lion? Will we get cut off from the services we've used for years as MobileMe and .Mac? Apparently so, as the notice also says that our MobileMe subscriptions are automatically extended until the end of June 2012. After that it seems to be Lion or nothing.

That's like telling us we can shoot ourselves or cut our throats. Thanks for the choice, Apple!

What apps do you run in Rosetta?

I have an older version of MS office that I *may* upgrade to 2011. Than again I may not. I'm waiting to see what the new iWork looks like and how it handles office 2011 files.

I can live without rosetta.
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post #7 of 48
6/7/11 at 5:27am
I think my printer uses Rosetta drivers. I have no need to upgrade my printer. It certainly slows me down.

Maybe the $100 I'm saving in the cost of Lion will motivate me to buy another printer?
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post #8 of 48
6/7/11 at 5:47am
I just watched the Apple Keynote from WWDC.

Lion has a few great Features.
And iCloud is great.

But i have to start Freehand for the next few years.......
Thats such a bad situation.....
So i can't upgrade to lion.



But that isn't all:
I can't buy a new Mac in a few Weeks - because since they will be shipped with Lion they won't boot in SnowLeopard anymore.



What can i do?

Do you think there will be any Chance or any Hack to start Freehand in Lion anytime?
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post #9 of 48
6/7/11 at 6:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by graubereich View Post

But that isn't all:
I can't buy a new Mac in a few Weeks - because since they will be shipped with Lion they won't boot in SnowLeopard anymore.

Incorrect. Only new hardware is rendered unbootable in older versions of the OS. All current hardware will run Snow Leopard even if Lion is preinstalled.
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post #10 of 48
6/7/11 at 7:32am
I also want apple to support my PS2 Monitor, my Floppy disks and my UltraCard expansion cards natively! Otherwise I'm not buying a Mac Pro!
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post #11 of 48
6/7/11 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by graubereich View Post

I just watched the Apple Keynote from WWDC.

Lion has a few great Features.
And iCloud is great.

But i have to start Freehand for the next few years.......
Thats such a bad situation.....
So i can't upgrade to lion.



But that isn't all:
I can't buy a new Mac in a few Weeks - because since they will be shipped with Lion they won't boot in SnowLeopard anymore.



What can i do?

Do you think there will be any Chance or any Hack to start Freehand in Lion anytime?

Get a copy of Parallels and run SL in that.
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post #12 of 48
6/7/11 at 8:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

What apps do you run in Rosetta?

Quicken, for one. It's been pointed out many times that this is abandonware for the Mac, and nothing on the market currently can replace it. We use it for our company accounting. I also run an older version of FileMaker, which does fine in Rosetta. We use it for our company invoicing. So one is irreplaceable, and the other a costly upgrade.

I don't honestly know how many others, and I wasn't looking for an opportunity to find out.
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post #13 of 48
6/7/11 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Quicken, for one. It's been pointed out many times that this is abandonware for the Mac, and nothing on the market currently can replace it. We use it for our company accounting. I also run an older version of FileMaker, which does fine in Rosetta. We use it for our company invoicing. So one is irreplaceable, and the other a costly upgrade.
.

I don't want to tell you how to run your business, but have you looked at quickbooks or AccountEdge? I use account Edge for my business and its been fantastic for me.
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post #14 of 48
6/7/11 at 8:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I don't want to tell you how to run your business, but have you looked at quickbooks or AccountEdge? I use account Edge for my business and its been fantastic for me.

AccountEdge is a lot more than I need, throws a learning curve at me, and costs $300. Add another $300 for an upgrade to FileMaker and this "free" service is starting to look kind of costly, not to mention disruptive.
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post #15 of 48
6/7/11 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

AccountEdge is a lot more than I need, throws a learning curve at me, and costs $300. Add another $300 for an upgrade to FileMaker and this "free" service is starting to look kind of costly, not to mention disruptive.

I am not trying to argue with you but Apple has a pretty strong track record of orphaning laggards on the platform. If you don't keep up you can be reasonably assured that at some point you'll face the predicament that you are in.

It sucks but, you'll have to decide whether 10.6 is good enough or whether 10.7 has enough features to make it worth the cost and hassle. I do this assessment at each upgrade. I've keep up because you never know when Apple will release some killer feature you have to have. Frankly Lion doesn't look that impressive to me but for $29 I'll upgrade if it doesn't break my billing and EHR software.
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post #16 of 48
6/7/11 at 9:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I am not trying to argue with you but Apple has a pretty strong track record of orphaning laggards on the platform. If you don't keep up you can be reasonably assured that at some point you'll face the predicament that you are in.

It sucks but, you'll have to decide whether 10.6 is good enough or whether 10.7 has enough features to make it worth the cost and hassle. I do this assessment at each upgrade. I've keep up because you never know when Apple will release some killer feature you have to have. Frankly Lion doesn't look that impressive to me but for $29 I'll upgrade if it doesn't break my billing and EHR software.

In reality, they don't. They managed the 68k to PPC transition so seamlessly that few users even noticed. They did the same for Classic to OSX. They did it again for PPC to Intel. The Snow Leopard to Lion transition isn't as great in technological terms and yet they are forcing many users into a dilemma.

The point I'm making is that Apple is giving me a choice between two types of pain. If I don't upgrade to Lion I lose my syncing services. If I do upgrade, I lose my PPC apps. This is something new in my long experience with Apple, and very unwelcome.
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post #17 of 48
6/7/11 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

In reality, they don't. They managed the 68k to PPC transition so seamlessly that few users even noticed. They did the same for Classic to OSX. They did it again for PPC to Intel. The Snow Leopard to Lion transition isn't as great in technological terms and yet they are forcing many users into a dilemma.

Don't mean to thread derail... but I'm bored so whet the hell. Your examples prove my point. Remember how Classic was dropped in 10.5 even for PPC machines? Remember 10.6 dropping PPC altogether? Remember the whole carbon fiasco?

When Apple drops hints that they are moving in a certain direction you better plan for the future. Apple gave strong indications that those technologies were dead ends. If you were os are dependent upon them you need to plan for a transition. Apple don't support legacy technology like MS does and probably never will with Jobs at the helm.

My EHR is written using Java. I believe at some point Java will not be supported on OSX. The handwriting is on the wall. I'm already talking to my vendor to see what they plan to do. They seem to suggest that they will always support Mac and will transition to something else. Nonetheless, I'm already thinking about what I'll do if they do not. So I'm looking at other vendors in case I have to migrate my data. I don't like it either and I understand the position you're in. But I know how Apple rolls too.
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post #18 of 48
6/7/11 at 12:49pm
I don't think anyone has to worry about Java. OS X may not ship with Java anymore but Apple moved its Java stuff to someone else to handle it. They already handle it for other platforms.
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post #19 of 48
6/7/11 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akac View Post

I don't think anyone has to worry about Java. OS X may not ship with Java anymore but Apple moved its Java stuff to someone else to handle it. They already handle it for other platforms.

I'm not holding my breath. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

Moving it for someone else to handle is usually Apple speak for 'you're dead to me'.
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post #20 of 48
6/7/11 at 1:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Don't mean to thread derail... but I'm bored so whet the hell. Your examples prove my point. Remember how Classic was dropped in 10.5 even for PPC machines? Remember 10.6 dropping PPC altogether? Remember the whole carbon fiasco?

When Apple drops hints that they are moving in a certain direction you better plan for the future. Apple gave strong indications that those technologies were dead ends. If you were os are dependent upon them you need to plan for a transition. Apple don't support legacy technology like MS does and probably never will with Jobs at the helm.

My EHR is written using Java. I believe at some point Java will not be supported on OSX. The handwriting is on the wall. I'm already talking to my vendor to see what they plan to do. They seem to suggest that they will always support Mac and will transition to something else. Nonetheless, I'm already thinking about what I'll do if they do not. So I'm looking at other vendors in case I have to migrate my data. I don't like it either and I understand the position you're in. But I know how Apple rolls too.

Not to worry, you're on topic. I think you're overlooking that, as far as we know, MobileMe syncing is going away for users who don't upgrade to Lion.

I don't know about you, but I used the Classic Environment for at least five years. When it finally went away, I didn't feel like the rug had been yanked out. This time IS different. We're being forced to choose between our PPC apps (which otherwise still work fine), or losing a service we've had for years. Neither seems necessary. The worst part of this problem is that it leaves us without either some mission-critical apps or services. We can't have both no matter what we do, except maybe spend a lot of money and time. An upgrade should not be a trip backwards, and we should not lose anything we've had if we choose not to upgrade.
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post #21 of 48
6/8/11 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Quicken, for one. It's been pointed out many times that this is abandonware for the Mac, and nothing on the market currently can replace it. We use it for our company accounting. I also run an older version of FileMaker, which does fine in Rosetta. We use it for our company invoicing. So one is irreplaceable, and the other a costly upgrade.

I don't honestly know how many others, and I wasn't looking for an opportunity to find out.

i also use file maker
what version do you run
i use 5.5
i also use rosetta

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post #22 of 48
6/8/11 at 8:02pm
Bancho answered your dilemma yesterday and it looks like you prefer to continue to whine about it as opposed to even acknowledge his fix. If you don't want to buy parallels server you can use virtualbox.

http://osxdaily.com/2010/05/05/run-m...th-virtualbox/

I guess if you want to stay totally legit you need a copy of SLS vs just SL.
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post #23 of 48
6/18/11 at 10:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Quicken, for one. It's been pointed out many times that this is abandonware for the Mac, and nothing on the market currently can replace it. We use it for our company accounting. I also run an older version of FileMaker, which does fine in Rosetta. We use it for our company invoicing. So one is irreplaceable, and the other a costly upgrade.

I don't honestly know how many others, and I wasn't looking for an opportunity to find out.

I've got a similar situation. I have Filemaker Pro 7 (3 licenses running on 3 Intel Macs) which uses Rosetta to run. I use it for everything in the business. To upgrade (3) Filemaker Pro licenses is about $900 to "go Lion" with them.

I can attest for Acclivity (priorly MYOB) for MAC. We use it on all Macs and its Intel Mac supported.

Then there's Quicken 2007 for Mac - a PPC app. It has been updated for to Intel Mac, but it is pure junk and no one will buy it. Looked around for replacements for Quicken. Its a no-go right now. Offerings in the coming, but none print checks yet.

It is rumored Quicken is working with Apple on a "stripped-down" implementation of Rosetta for all the Quicken 2007 for Mac consumers (there's lots of them out there), but its still an if-and-when situation.

Could it be Rosetta breaks something in Lion? Or is it that Apple is just saying "to hell with our customers on PPC apps that have no way to upgrade them"? If that's the case, then the message of upgrade tough-love is really touch-luck when you CAN'T get the app in Intel form.
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post #24 of 48
6/19/11 at 6:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rusty0101 View Post

Then there's Quicken 2007 for Mac - a PPC app...
It is rumored Quicken is working with Apple on a "stripped-down" implementation of Rosetta for all the Quicken 2007 for Mac consumers (there's lots of them out there), but its still an if-and-when situation.

Could it be Rosetta breaks something in Lion? Or is it that Apple is just saying "to hell with our customers on PPC apps that have no way to upgrade them"? If that's the case, then the message of upgrade tough-love is really touch-luck when you CAN'T get the app in Intel form.

Apple is saying "to hell with laggardly developers who will drag the platform down through dated development practices." Many of these companies are stuck in the PC-first mentality of the 90s, when building a Mac app was treated as doing a favor for a niche audience. Today, the market has changed as Apple's adoption rate and market size have grown. With the demise of Rosetta, Apple is applying pressure to the development firms who can't be bothered to deliver a top-notch product for OSX. In the long-term, this will be good for users. Either companies, like Inuit, will build proper applications, or the market will respond to an opening and a strong competitor will emerge.

It seems crazy to me that Inuit would spend the resources to implement a one-off Rosetta layer, rather than just building a decent version of Quickennor can I see Apple supporting this. However, as a business owner who uses QuickBooks, I know that Intuit shows absolute disdain for its Mac base, and seems hell bent on delivering an inferior product at all costs. I only use Intuit's products because my accountant, like many, is QB-based.
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post #25 of 48
6/19/11 at 3:55pm
Seems like a great addition to iWork would be a banking app that seamlessly imported Quicken files.

If there's one area that most Mac users seem to be in total agreement on, it's the woeful state of banking and bookkeeping software on the platform. Everyone seems to agree that Quicken has the feature set they want while being an absolutely abysmal Mac program, whereas various candidate replacements always seem to be shy a feature or two.

The longing for quality Mac banking/bookkeeping software seems acute enough, and widespread enough, to be a reasonable area of investment for Apple. I often read about this one failure as being a deal breaker, or forcing the otherwise Mac inclined to abandon the platform and/or run a PC for that one application.

The lack of response from Apple on this front seems a little puzzling. Given Intuit's utter disregard, I can't imagine they're unduly worried about offending them as a developer. Intuit's attitude towards the Mac seems very reminiscent of Quark's attitude toward everybody. What Apple needs is the banking equivalent of InDesign to come along and shake things up.
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post #26 of 48
6/26/11 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Not to worry, you're on topic. I think you're overlooking that, as far as we know, MobileMe syncing is going away for users who don't upgrade to Lion.

I don't know about you, but I used the Classic Environment for at least five years. When it finally went away, I didn't feel like the rug had been yanked out. This time IS different. We're being forced to choose between our PPC apps (which otherwise still work fine), or losing a service we've had for years. Neither seems necessary. The worst part of this problem is that it leaves us without either some mission-critical apps or services. We can't have both no matter what we do, except maybe spend a lot of money and time. An upgrade should not be a trip backwards, and we should not lose anything we've had if we choose not to upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

In reality, they don't. They managed the 68k to PPC transition so seamlessly that few users even noticed. They did the same for Classic to OSX. They did it again for PPC to Intel. The Snow Leopard to Lion transition isn't as great in technological terms and yet they are forcing many users into a dilemma.

The point I'm making is that Apple is giving me a choice between two types of pain. If I don't upgrade to Lion I lose my syncing services. If I do upgrade, I lose my PPC apps. This is something new in my long experience with Apple, and very unwelcome.

Trouble is that the transition to Intel was 5.5 years ago now (wiki puts the start at Jan2006).

Apple have a good history of orphaning users so that the cutting edge (so to speak) stays a cutting edge without being blunted by continually having to offer support to historical platforms. PPC is historic and 5.5 years in technology is a lifetime.

So you can hardly fault Apple for doing what they've always done in the past.

I'm assuming that whatever solution you have running that requires Rosetta, was put in a long time before Jan 2006, so personally speaking, I think you've had full value for money if you have a bit of software running for 6+ years.
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post #27 of 48
6/26/11 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

It is for me. I run too many PPC apps, some of which are not replaceable. A move to Lion would be extremely painful.

What's worse, Apple has notified MobileMe users that "iCloud is free for iOS 5 and OS X Lion users." What does that mean for MobileMe subscribers who don't migrate to Lion? Will we get cut off from the services we've used for years as MobileMe and .Mac? Apparently so, as the notice also says that our MobileMe subscriptions are automatically extended until the end of June 2012. After that it seems to be Lion or nothing.

That's like telling us we can shoot ourselves or cut our throats. Thanks for the choice, Apple!

I agree I think this is a huge downfall i dont know why apple could not include PPC into Lion. Im going to hold off for it right now. maybe down the road get it and make a partition for it. what a let down. first they cut off OSX to ppc but still made some stuff for ppc support. i think Apple should have waited for at least another update before toasting Rosetta.
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post #28 of 48
6/26/11 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by contra157 View Post

I agree I think this is a huge downfall i dont know why apple could not include PPC into Lion. Im going to hold off for it right now. maybe down the road get it and make a partition for it. what a let down. first they cut off OSX to ppc but still made some stuff for ppc support. i think Apple should have waited for at least another update before toasting Rosetta.

Cmon, they've waited 5.5 years to cut it off! If software developers can't keep pace (not a particularly fast pace at that) why should Apple continue to support them?

And why should Apple wait? If a developer hasn't rolled out an update in 6 odd years (considering they probably had access to some developer tools before the Intel change), why should they have any update available in another 2 years?

Developers are simply putting off the day of reckoning and using the users and pawns.

Don't bitch at Apple that your application has been abandoned, moan at the developers of your application!
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post #29 of 48
6/26/11 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by contra157 View Post

first they cut off OSX to ppc

Because none are fast enough to be primary work machines anymore.

Quote:
but still made some stuff for ppc support.

To give developers four more years of grace to port their code properly. Those that haven't deserve their fate.

Quote:
i think Apple should have waited for at least another update before toasting Rosetta.

Transitions are messy, but to get them done, they actually have to be done, not put off.

I can still run OS 9 on my Mac Pro, even in Lion, thanks to proper x86 Cocoa code.
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post #30 of 48
6/27/11 at 2:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

Don't bitch at Apple that your application has been abandoned, moan at the developers of your application!

This is not possible for applications that are cannot be updated anymore. The most common example is old games, and people that liked them are likely to play them for many years.

Apple could certainly offer Rosetta as an optional installation under Lion but they chose not to.
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post #31 of 48
6/27/11 at 2:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I can still run OS 9 on my Mac Pro, even in Lion, thanks to proper x86 Cocoa code.

I don't see what you mean. Running OS 9 on Intel machines is possible using Sheepshaver; do you have other ways?
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post #32 of 48
6/27/11 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

I don't see what you mean. Running OS 9 on Intel machines is possible using Sheepshaver; do you have other ways?

Nope, that's it. But it's an Intel app, so it works perfectly in Lion.
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post #33 of 48
6/27/11 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Nope, that's it. But it's an Intel app, so it works perfectly in Lion.

Cool. At least we have this.
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post #34 of 48
6/27/11 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

This is not possible for applications that are cannot be updated anymore. The most common example is old games, and people that liked them are likely to play them for many years.

Apple could certainly offer Rosetta as an optional installation under Lion but they chose not to.

Don't upgrade then. There is nothing forcing anyone to upgrade, so why upgrade if it'll lock you out of your software?

Apple probably could offer Rosetta, but I'm guessing that there is a cost attached to keeping Rosetta up to date and compatible. Why should Apple be obligated to maintain it, when upgrading to the latest OSX is an option for the user? (Eg - you don't have to upgrade).
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post #35 of 48
6/27/11 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

This is not possible for applications that are cannot be updated anymore. The most common example is old games, and people that liked them are likely to play them for many years.

Apple could certainly offer Rosetta as an optional installation under Lion but they chose not to.

Freehand is also a popular example.
I hope there will be a way to install Freehand in Lion.

If there won't be a way thousands of Designers can't upgrade to Lion.
Including myself :-(
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post #36 of 48
6/27/11 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

This is not possible for applications that are cannot be updated anymore. The most common example is old games, and people that liked them are likely to play them for many years.

Apple could certainly offer Rosetta as an optional installation under Lion but they chose not to.

Because its not just Rosetta. Rosetta is just a translator for code. Apple would have to compile and test a PowerPC version of ALL the OS libraries. People think its just including some minor bit of code to make Rosetta work. Its not. Its Apple having to literally make two versions of its OS and test them. Most of that code will probably work just fine as its high level C, but some of it is assembly. And testing is where the real time sink is.
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post #37 of 48
6/27/11 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

This is not possible for applications that are cannot be updated anymore. The most common example is old games, and people that liked them are likely to play them for many years.

Apple could certainly offer Rosetta as an optional installation under Lion but they chose not to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graubereich View Post

Freehand is also a popular example.
I hope there will be a way to install Freehand in Lion.

If there won't be a way thousands of Designers can't upgrade to Lion.
Including myself :-(

You are relying on software that was discontinued over 4 years ago. I know this is mean spirited to say this - but if you want Lion (and every other update after Lion), you will have to bin Freehand.
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post #38 of 48
6/27/11 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman0 View Post

You are relying on software that was discontinued over 4 years ago. I know this is mean spirited to say this - but if you want Lion (and every other update after Lion), you will have to bin Freehand.


I hope there will be any Hack or Workaround bringing Freehand to Lion.
If theres no solution after 3-6 Months Lion is on the market i think you are right.
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post #39 of 48
6/27/11 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by graubereich View Post

I hope there will be any Hack or Workaround bringing Freehand to Lion.

If it requires Rosetta, this is impossible.
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"…AI is a private forum…" "Well, in that case, it's naked time…"
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Tallest Skil & Relic
"…AI is a private forum…" "Well, in that case, it's naked time…"
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post #40 of 48
6/28/11 at 8:13am
First they turn quicktime into a joke now they want to take away Rosetta.
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