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Apple planning massive 12,000 capacity "spaceship" campus in Cupertino - Page 6

post #201 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Now on a MUCH MORE IMPORTANT thing. No one mentions SJ looks much thinner then previous public appearance?

It is NOT a much more important thing. Sorry, I'm on a campaign to quiet down this useless and inappropriate speculation about his appearance, and the consequent squeamish handwringing. It is not our business. And if you've ever had to deal with someone with health issues, the less negative you say to their face or around the family, the better. Talk up the positive, stop whimpering about the negative. We don't know what's going on!

Their face? Around the family? This is a public forum and people from Apple may be reading it.
post #202 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Likely because he doesn't.

Exactly, and in many ways he's looking good.
post #203 of 304
I think you are wrong about what it takes to be a green building. A green building doesn't need to be self sufficient with energy. It just has to use energy efficiently. There is a certification process for Green Buildings. The community college in my area just built a green building that was certified to the highest marks by LEED (the certifying agency). There is no solar or wind farms. However, the building uses a lot of natural light, is designed to keep heating and cooling costs down, the asphalt in the parking lot is permutable (to allow water to go through), and the fixtures are all energy efficient. Further, how many companies do you know that quadruples the landscaped area thereby increasing the amount of trees that purify air?



Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Yes, I don't think Apple should have carte blanche to do what they want just because it's already so stunning... Maybe the real questions the city council as well as the state should be asking is what about solar? There are many new office buildings around the world being built that are already "greener" than this. Yes, architect students will come to see it but it's not really an epitome of a green building.
post #204 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Exactly, and in many ways he's looking good.

He certainly still gives a kick-ass keynote speech. It does seem likely he's going to be increasingly taking a back seat though, if only to give investors confidence that Apple isn't a one-man operation. I personally think that Apple will continue to outperform even with Jobs taking a rest. He has over the last decade or so driven the idea of qualty and attention design deep into the firm.

The moment for me that defined it was when the guy demonstrated that the camera could now be operated using the volume button and the audience erupted in cheers. Apple is the kind of firm that thinks about something so picayune as shutter buttons - because Apple knows it makes a huge difference to user experience, and Apple users actually appreciate it and are as ecstatic about minute interface polishes as they are about new API libraries and shiny new features.

So long as Apple engineers keep obsessing about that kind of thing Apple will stay special and Jobsian.
post #205 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I think that's pretty dangerous, to use government power to take property, purely to benefit a single corporation.



If the panels are facing _up_, how is that going to reflect down to the trees? Or if they're motorized to be sun-pointing, the light vector is pointed back at the sun again. Assuming the panels are on the roof, I'm not seeing where it hurts the trees here.

Have you seen the arrays they have in the deserts in America? They don't point straight up they are on an angle. Having them lie flat makes them even more inefficient.
post #206 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Uh, you really don't understand how solar works at all, do you?

Trees catching on fire? Really? Go work out the geometry and learn that even if they were 100% perfect mirrors that the reflected light doesn't go anywhere near the ground. (And solar panels are designed to be the opposite of mirrors - their entire purpose is to collect as much sun light as possible, not reflect it back.)

Explain the glare coming off of those arrays then?

Solar panels are inefficient and don't even absorb most of the light at all. You'd be surprised at how very little light they absorb per surface area. That's why there is no huge move to make everything solar powered. The cost per benefit of solar is not close to being viable whereas gas is cheap and best of all clean and doesn't take very much to produce at all.

Solar technology is getting better and better but it is still far from perfect.

The risk is very much there whether you choose to accept it or not.
post #207 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Fine Line View Post

As has been frequently mentioned, the Pixar building was designed to allow people to easily interact with each other. This will be similar. In fact, I think it's very reasonable to believe that this building will be the architectural embodiment of the Apple philosophy! And if that doesn't make sense to you, I'm not even sure why you read this site! lol

An interesting feature of the pentagon is that you can get to any other part in around 10 mins. As a ring vs a spread out campus you pretty much get that same effect in the proposed structure.
post #208 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

He certainly still gives a kick-ass keynote speech. It does seem likely he's going to be increasingly taking a back seat though, if only to give investors confidence that Apple isn't a one-man operation. I personally think that Apple will continue to outperform even with Jobs taking a rest. He has over the last decade or so driven the idea of qualty and attention design deep into the firm.

The moment for me that defined it was when the guy demonstrated that the camera could now be operated using the volume button and the audience erupted in cheers. Apple is the kind of firm that thinks about something so picayune as shutter buttons - because Apple knows it makes a huge difference to user experience, and Apple users actually appreciate it and are as ecstatic about minute interface polishes as they are about new API libraries and shiny new features.

So long as Apple engineers keep obsessing about that kind of thing Apple will stay special and Jobsian.

Jobsian -- I like the sound of that very much. And yes, deep into the design infrastructure of the firm, by picking people and making a culture around them, for them.

There's really nothing to be worried about with Apple. They have invented a completely new kind of company, and it is on the ascendency for a long run. Thus this building. Truly amazing the more I look at it and think about it. Big news.
post #209 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

An interesting feature of the pentagon is that you can get to any other part in around 10 mins. As a ring vs a spread out campus you pretty much get that same effect in the proposed structure.

Very interesting. Like spokes in a wheel, they'll meet in the center. Or maybe with rings intersecting, like a web. Indra's Net comes to mind.
post #210 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Like a weed?

Yeah, not a great choice of words there. Weeds get pulled out and burned, or at least made into dandelion soup.
post #211 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Fine. If you can advocate a more economical renewable on-site generating source I'm all ears. In the meantime let's stick to what's been proven to work.

First "prove" that PV is economical without subsidy...I'm all for solar but it's not a panacea.
post #212 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Have you seen the arrays they have in the deserts in America? They don't point straight up they are on an angle. Having them lie flat makes them even more inefficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Explain the glare coming off of those arrays then?

Solar panels are inefficient and don't even absorb most of the light at all. You'd be surprised at how very little light they absorb per surface area. That's why there is no huge move to make everything solar powered. The cost per benefit of solar is not close to being viable whereas gas is cheap and best of all clean and doesn't take very much to produce at all.

Solar technology is getting better and better but it is still far from perfect.

The risk is very much there whether you choose to accept it or not.

I don't believe there is such a risk in your supposed scenario, this is basic vector math. PV panels that are on a motorized mount face the sun for most efficiency. In that case, the light not absorbed is reflected in the opposite direction - back toward the sun. In the case of upward facing panels, light not absorbed would back up to some other part of the sky, reflected across the surface normal, not refract them down to the ground. Remember, we were talking about panels on the top of a 4th story building.
post #213 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Explain the glare coming off of those arrays then?

In this part of California (Bay Area) the optimal fixed angle is around 20 degrees elevation. (This is due to the Time-Of-Use tariff that maximizes production during the summer months.) There is no way that the light is getting reflected anywhere but back into the sky. And as has been pointed out earlier, mechanical trackers aim the panels right back into the sun.

But I'm curious - are there any reports of PV panels setting trees on fire? The only case that I could conceivably imagine is where someone intentionally aligns them into a parabola with a tree at the focus.
post #214 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Like a weed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

Yeah, not a great choice of words there. Weeds get pulled out and burned, or at least made into dandelion soup.

Um, you guys must be young or something. It is a common phrase that means growing rapidly. Frequently used to refer to fast growing children, but maybe Steve sees the company as one of his own.
post #215 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Fine Line View Post

Did this remind anyone else of the building at the end of the Fountainhead?... Anyone? lol

If you think Jobs is a Libertarian, Rand fan think again. The man can't stand both. Hint: He's not a Republican or a Christian. His trip to India when he was 21 set his life course. The man is very Gaia conscious.
post #216 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

Art is universal. When something is really beautiful it's really beautiful. You can have your own opinion all you want but it's just that: opinion. But what you're really wrong is.. if anything, the importance of architect is somewhat underrated.

PS: and if you think brick is ugly, two words: Mario Botta.

"Art" doesn't always have anything to do with beauty at all, and the perception of "beauty" is actually subjective.
post #217 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

First "prove" that PV is economical without subsidy...I'm all for solar but it's not a panacea.

Wake me up when Corn, Wheat, Barley, Oil, Coal and the rest are economical without subsidies.
post #218 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Only to those that don't know what's going on. At a fundamental level, it is using energy to move energy. In short, the opposite of irony, because when presented that way, you expect that to happen. In fact, probably every means of refrigeration requires the production heat somewhere, what's different in those cases is the apparent proximity, or the lack of it.

People who aren't Mechanical Engineers, Physicists or who actually haven't taken a Thermodynamics/Heat Transfer series of courses need to grasp the notion that Heat doesn't mean Hot or above Zero. It covers the spectrum from Absolute Zero to Infinity. Heat is just one variable in the overall Energy transformation equation and whether that energy enters or leaves the system we talk in terms of Heat in [absorption] or Heat out [loss].
post #219 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Eventually the free wifi for Cupertino will take care of itself when Apple expands it's ringed mothership to swallow the entire city of Cupertino. Since everyone will live and work witHin the borders of Apple, the wifi will be complementary.

Yes yes i thought as much
CUPERINOO will become a giant green data farm . Free Wifi at no charge .





9
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post #220 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

The entire building is one huge symbolic gesture!!

Think about it; a corporate headquarter really doesn't need to be anything other than a boxy building with windows and a parking lot. Everything else is glitz, so now it's just a matter of degree.

Apple has chosen to spend their well-earned money on an expensive, stylistic edifice for the sake of telling the world that they are successful. I have no problem with that. They may also attract more talent as a result (although at this point I suspect people would still line up to work at Apple even if it was located in an underground bunker). But they are also making a permanent statement to the world (and the Cupertino government) that they value certain details over others, including the replanting of trees that they have no legal obligation to do and to include certain 'green' architecture elements (Jobs even said it explicitly).

My only complaint here is they didn't include (or at least mention) some element of solar electrical generation*. Not necessarily because it would make a huge impact on their operating costs, but because it would tell other would-be Apples that it's an appropriate thing to do. I might be wrong - maybe there are panels located elsewhere on campus and Jobs didn't bring it up. (And then your argument will be invalidated here.) In any case, any new construction that goes up in this day and age that doesn't attempt to capture the free energy raining down on the roof is, in my opinion, a huge lost opportunity that borders on the criminal. I fly over new housing developments that are only a year old that could be generating megawatts of electricity that instead sap the electric grid, add to our overall pollution, and enrich companies that have far less social conscience than Apple or any other tech company that people look up to.

Google, meanwhile, is offsetting 30% of their electricity use at the 'Plex.


Edit: *And the solar panels do not have to be on the Big Donut - they could be elsewhere on the campus, such as along the perimeter or the support buildings. And maybe that is indeed in the works, but this presentation didn't mention it.

dude its all solar panels
its a mothership thats off the grid 100 percentile

so re-read the article
walk outside
turn left at the small rare bottles store



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post #221 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Actually, that still one of the concerns. While it's not the worst problem for birds, anything that makes the situation worse needs to be looked into.

i the extras carbon we spew kills more birds than a few wind blades that turnout a 7.5 mile an hour rate .

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post #222 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

Just to clarify a bit, only if the corporation is for essentially 'private' use... if that makes sense.
Remember the big ta-do from the supreme court few years ago? Allowed a mall(ie developers) to use ED to get land. Ruling was because the mall would be for 'public use'.
See this all time really. Economic recover zones and the like....

Well, this was my point entirely.

It actually *doesn't* (yet) happen "all (the) time," and that ruling was one of the first in the USA.

Everything a corporation does could be spun as "for the public good." It's actually a pervasive myth (that the USA is partly built on), that this is in fact the case, even though it isn't actually true.

In most, if not all 'western' countries, this kind of thing is explicitly frowned upon if not outright illegal for exactly the reasons we are talking about. If a corporation can evict people from their houses though having a cosy arrangement with local government and by arguing that the overall development is good for the people as a whole, then you are most definitely not living in a democracy anymore.

It's not hyperbole either. Government and Business *have* to be completely separate for Democracy to work. It's almost the government's entire job to protect the interests of the people from those of corporations and other massive organisations. This kind of corporate/government collusion is classic Fascism.

Millions died defending civilisation from this junk in World War II. It's so ironic that it's not only happened anyway, but that it happens more often in the USA than anywhere else now. Mussolini would fit right in nowadays. He'd probably be on the guest list at Schwarzenegger's next house party.
post #223 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Very interesting. Like spokes in a wheel, they'll meet in the center. Or maybe with rings intersecting, like a web. Indra's Net comes to mind.

From the drawings, it looks as if the center of the wheel will be basically parkland. My guess is that there will be lots of doors and windows facing inwards, with the circular design maximizing the amount of space so oriented. Plus the quickest way to get from A to B will be a nice stroll through the trees.
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post #224 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

PS: and if you think brick is ugly, two words: Mario Botta.

The man is a total genius with his chosen materials. Really beautiful buildings.
post #225 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

It's not hyperbole either. Government and Business *have* to be completely separate for Democracy to work. It's almost the government's entire job to protect the interests of the people from those of corporations and other massive organisations. This kind of corporate/government collusion is classic Fascism.


I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

Thomas Jefferson

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power
Benito Mussolini
post #226 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Exactly, and in many ways he's looking good.

Given the survival studies relating to pancreatic cancer and liver transplants and all that, being vertical, ambulatory, and conversant without being noticably affected by painkillers is considered a superb outcome at this moment in his life.

I'd rather look (and think and be remembered) like him than, say, Steve Ballmer.
post #227 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

All the city council clowns could think of was to ask "where's our cut?". Apple should move to Mountain View, sell off the land, and let the remaining Cupertino residents drag the council's pathetic corpses through the streets. I'm pretty sure Mountain View's (or almost any city's) leaders would show a lot more appreciation for what Apple brings to the table.

Are you for real? Watch the video - they were fawning all over Steve. Even the councilwoman that asked about free Wi-Fi nodded her head and laughed at Steve's answer, then told him how great Apple is.
post #228 of 304
After Hubris comes Nemesis.
post #229 of 304
I couldn't help but smile at how Jobs pitched this like a keynote.

First, talk about the problem that needs solving-- too many employees. Then, talk about the possible solutions that they considered and discarded as inadequate, or the extant examples that clearly just make Jobs weary to even think about-- multiple buildings, bland old office parks, etc. "We looked at those, and we thought we could do better."

Then move on, with a quickening sense of drama, to how Apple assembled a team of the best at what they do to tackle the problem from the ground up. Pause. "And this is what we came up with. We think it's really nice." Linger on features. Suggest that it could well be the best of its kind, ever.

The only thing different is the planning process obliged him to show a prototype, which Apple never does. I'm sure if he could have, he would have had the council meet him at the site, and pulled a huge cloth off the finished building for the big reveal.

Also amusing: "We're pretty high tech, you can draw right on the slide!" "That's OK, I don't really need to draw, it's pretty clear." As if Jobs was going to doodle around on his carefully orchestrated sequence of images.
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post #230 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Jobs did mention conferences. He specifically did mention the WWDC, so with over one million square feet in the building, which is wider than you may think, it's likely that they will do their presentations there. Remember that at theWWDc, he apologized for the size of the conference, and states that it was the biggest space they could get. Possibly, they will have more room here. The cafeterior will seat 3,000, so a bigger conference area is certainly possible.


Jobs did NOT say he wanted to hold WWDC at the new campus. He mentioned presentations like when they announce a new iPhone which are normally held at the Performing Arts Center in San Francisco for hundreds of journalists. He only mentioned WWDC as a point of reference since he had just been there.

As for space, there aren't enough hotel rooms in Cupertino Within walking distance to hold thousands of people.
post #231 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Wake me up when Corn, Wheat, Barley, Oil, Coal and the rest are economical without subsidies.

Ding ding ding...this is your wake up call...
post #232 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

All the city council clowns could think of was to ask "where's our cut?". Apple should move to Mountain View, sell off the land, and let the remaining Cupertino residents drag the council's pathetic corpses through the streets. I'm pretty sure Mountain View's (or almost any city's) leaders would show a lot more appreciation for what Apple brings to the table.

Quid pro quo. They gotta say stuff like that.

I thought it was funny nobody called their bluff. "So you really want to move into Google's backyard?"

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #233 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I couldn't help but smile at how Jobs pitched this like a keynote.

First, talk about the problem that needs solving-- too many employees. Then, talk about the possible solutions that they considered and discarded as inadequate, or the extant examples that clearly just make Jobs weary to even think about-- multiple buildings, bland old office parks, etc. "We looked at those, and we thought we could do better."

Then move on, with a quickening sense of drama, to how Apple assembled a team of the best at what they do to tackle the problem from the ground up. Pause. "And this is what we came up with. We think it's really nice." Linger on features. Suggest that it could well be the best of its kind, ever.

The only thing different is the planning process obliged him to show a prototype, which Apple never does. I'm sure if he could have, he would have had the council meet him at the site, and pulled a huge cloth off the finished building for the big reveal.

Also amusing: "We're pretty high tech, you can draw right on the slide!" "That's OK, I don't really need to draw, it's pretty clear." As if Jobs was going to doodle around on his carefully orchestrated sequence of images.

I see somebody has been paying attention!

Presenting is in his blood. I'm sure the Cupertino public officials were glad to receive an audience with Jobs, coming to them with hat in hand (well, not really--Jobs know what cards he's got).

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #234 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't believe there is such a risk in your supposed scenario, this is basic vector math. PV panels that are on a motorized mount face the sun for most efficiency. In that case, the light not absorbed is reflected in the opposite direction - back toward the sun. In the case of upward facing panels, light not absorbed would back up to some other part of the sky, reflected across the surface normal, not refract them down to the ground. Remember, we were talking about panels on the top of a 4th story building.

It is Optics and Vectors in which some of the Solar Magnetic Light is reflected and some is refracted. Depending on the angle the complementary angle of reflection [the sum total of the incident vector plus the reflecting vector equaling 90 degrees in Trigonometry] guarantees a portion of the electromagnetic light will be refracted and reflected between two material mediums.

http://www.tulane.edu/~sanelson/geol211/proplight.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index

It sure would be nice to produce a true Black Body material medium that allows for the collection of all energy dissipation [To be able to absorb all light radiation and then have it converted in a thermal cycle] but last I checked Carnot Cycle for Gas Engines and even the Sterling Cycle are bragging about it's 22% Engine Efficiency where 78% is lost in the form of Heat Out.
post #235 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Ding ding ding...this is your wake up call...

I'm waiting.

The entire Ag Industry [I come from the PNW and Eastern WA the home of the Palouse] and the pay to not farm half your crops, store them in silos are standard.

Cancel the Corn subsidies and eliminate all High Fructose Corn Syrup from Food Science would suddenly wake up all the whining Conservatives to stop messing with their subsidies.

Hell, the Coal industry gets massive subsidies.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...coal_subsidies

How pathetic.

The Oil Industry rapes the public with subsidies.

If the Bio-Algae, Solar, Wind got those subsidies in the form of R&D to produce higher efficiency solutions I think we all would have to shut up and thank the Government for taking the right action.

Instead, we pay Old Industries to get rich. Talk about ass backwards.

The Hydroelectric subsidies currently received would make more sense if those subsidies were designed solely for power distribution expansion. And more importantly, for Power transmission research into better transport material mediums resulting in actual higher savings and thus make those subsidies for R&D only.

Instead, we subsidize old solutions to prop them up. What a waste of finite resources.
post #236 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

It is Optics and Vectors in which some of the Solar Magnetic Light is reflected and some is refracted. Depending on the angle the complementary angle of reflection [the sum total of the incident vector plus the reflecting vector equaling 90 degrees in Trigonometry] guarantees a portion of the electromagnetic light will be refracted and reflected between two material mediums.

http://www.tulane.edu/~sanelson/geol211/proplight.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index

It sure would be nice to produce a true Black Body material medium that allows for the collection of all energy dissipation [To be able to absorb all light radiation and then have it converted in a thermal cycle] but last I checked Carnot Cycle for Gas Engines and even the Sterling Cycle are bragging about it's 22% Engine Efficiency where 78% is lost in the form of Heat Out.

Nice references, but I think you guys may be over-complicating the original problem/question. Even for a perfectly reflecting planar array, and ignoring atmospheric scattering, the maximum point increase in solar insolation in the path of the reflected light would a factor of two (the sun and a reflection of the sun are incident in the same place) - not enough to damage anything. In practice, even if they were arranged so that reflected light reached the ground, it is no different to the reflected light from large glass-covered office buildings, some of which are much more reflective than solar panels. Distracting, possibly - dangerous, no.
post #237 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

It's in California, a lot of commies and liberals live there.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing. </snark> Being that the state California is, what, the seventh largest economy in the world, those "commies and liberals" must be doing something right!
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post #238 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

... but do they have a pyramid somewhere yet? That has to be coming, as there are only so many simple, geometric shapes that they can choose from.

A pyramid wastes too much land for its' base compared to cubes and cylinders.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

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post #239 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

I'm waiting.

Instead, we subsidize old solutions to prop them up. What a waste of finite resources.

Go find a soapbox someplace else if you want to rant off topic.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

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post #240 of 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by acerbas View Post

After Hubris comes Nemesis.

This building expresses something quite other than hubris. Skyscrapers and massive rectangles are about overweening pride. This building is clearly about bringing people together in some kind of meditative or enjoyable space.

If that's too sappy for your acerbic self, then you may think of it as a demonstration to the world of how to do a company headquarters in human scale and in accord with nature.

But it really is about the end of prideful corporatism, I think.
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