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The Bush admin is still lying to start a war - Page 7  

post #241 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this.

I can't believe that there are people that wouldn't still argue about this. Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Or something like that.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #242 of 631
Yes we're still arguing about it. It's going to cost us $75 billion this year (thats just the start of it).

And..they are still lying to us. WMD!!!! sheeeesh.

Full article here

Oil, oil, oil. Operation Iraqi Liberation!
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #243 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Yes we're still arguing about it. It's going to cost us $75 billion this year (thats just the start of it).

And..they are still lying to us. WMD!!!! sheeeesh.

Full article here

Oil, oil, oil. Operation Iraqi Liberation!

Ah but haven't you read? They say now it doesn't matter ( now that the pro war advocates got their way ). Their arguments change with the situation ( what ever fit's best ) and they don't remember the past. I might add that groverat in another thread ( the impeachment thread that he locked ) has indicated that every president has lied and people have died as a result. See all presidents do it so it's ok. Right?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #244 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo


Oil, oil, oil.

Sick, sick, sick.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #245 of 631
Thread Starter 
An interesting read on the history of planted evidence by the US government.

memo from the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

An excerpt:

Quote:

The media have raised the possibility that the US might plant weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that this may be another reason to keep UN inspectors out. This is a charge of such seriousness that we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity have been conducting an informal colloquium on the issue. As one might expect, there is no unanimity among us on the likelihood of such planting, but most believe that Washington would consider it far too risky. Those holding this view add that recent polls suggest most Americans will not be very critical of the Bush administration even if no weapons of mass destruction are found.

Others, taken aback by the in the in-your-face attitude with which Secretary of State Colin Powell reacted both to the exposure of the Niger forgery and to the requiem for the argument from aluminum rods, see in that attitude a sign that the Bush administration would not necessarily let the risk of disclosure deter it from planting weapons. They also point to the predicament facing the Blair government in Great Britain and other coalition partners, if no such weapons are found in Iraq. They note that the press in the UK has been more independent and vigilant than its US counterpart, and thus the British people are generally better informed and more skeptical of their government than US citizens tend to be.

While the odds of such planting seem less than even, speculation on the possibility drove us down memory lane. Likely or not in present circumstances, there is ample precedent for such covert action operations. VIPS member David MacMichael authored this short case-study paper to throw light on this little known subject. What leaps out of his review is a reminder that, were the Bush administration to decide in favor of a planting or similar operation, it would not have to start from scratch as far as experience is concerned. Moreover, many of the historical examples that follow bear an uncanny resemblance to factors and circumstances in play today.

It then goes on to list and describe many of the major incidents of the past.

Another interesting document is the "Northwoods" document:

http://emperors-clothes.com/images/north-1.htm

CCR explains some of the proposals to start a war with cuba:

Quote:
ii The document suggested several possible incidents that could be staged to justify U.S. intervention.

(A) A series of well- coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.Land friendly Cubans in uniform over-the-fence to stage attack on base, Capture Cuban (friendly) saboteurs inside the base, start riots near the base main gate (friendly Cubans) Lob mortar shells from the outside of the base into the base. Some damage to installationSink ship in harbor entrance. Construct funerals for mock-victims. United States would respond by executing offensive operations to secure water and power supplies, destroying artillery and mortar emplacements which threaten the base. commence large scale United States military operations. [Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1963 pg.7-8]

(B) A Remember the Maine incident could be arranged in several forms. We could blow up a US ship and blame Cuba. . We could develop a communist terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized..It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight. The document then went on to discuss in detail how such an operation might be conducted. [Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1963 pg.8-11]

As such, the possibility of planted materials can not be ruled out. While I can't decide whether I think the US would actually plant anything at this point, I do think another country might.

As some people have pointed out, including a NYT editorial, much of America probably already believes that WMD have been located since the 'false positives' have been so widely reported (very dramatically in numerous headlines) as if they were actual finds.

Many other Americans don't seem to care anymore whether they are found (short attention spans, you know), so it might not be politically necessary.

If someone does plant anything, it will be interesting to see how they will do something that looks valid, since, as has been pointed out continuously, we know the extent of the programs and know what is unaccounted for. For example, if large amounts (or any amount, really) of stabilized g-agents are 'discovered,' there would have to be a massive infrastructure as well, something that would have been impossible to hide.

What I could see is the discovery (with or without quotes) of a few tons of mustard gas, though this would not have been justification for war, much less even close to being a threat to the US. A conventional weapon would be much a more practical and deadly weapon to use against US citizens.
post #246 of 631
Sorry, I clicked on the wrong icon.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #247 of 631
When will the liberal Bush- haters let it go? He won, you lost. The American people love him, they despise you.
post #248 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by DIB
When will the liberal Bush- haters let it go? He won, you lost. The American people love him, they despise you.

So these so-called liberal Bush-haters aren't part of the American People?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #249 of 631
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by DIB
When will the liberal Bush- haters let it go? He won, you lost. The American people love him, they despise you.



This is just wierd
post #250 of 631
Each time there is a false alarm about Iraq's (fictitious) WMDs, it is blazed across the headlines of the corporate media. A few days later comes a retraction or debunking of the original story, albeit very low profile. Here is the latest one.

Has anyone done any polls to see what % of the US public believe that WMDs have been found in Iraq, the reason Bush used to sell the war to the US people?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #251 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by DIB
When will the liberal Bush- haters let it go? He won, you lost. The American people love him, they despise you.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #252 of 631
Not wanting to start a new thread....but THIS SORT OF SCARY STUFF was being talked about endlessly before the war started, and laughed at by the pro-war folks. Although it seems less and less likely that there were ever any real WMDs, clearly there was some dangerous stuff which would have been far better off discovered and taken care of by UN inspectors than by a bunch of crazed looters and inexperienced GI's. Just what the hell is going on there?

Maybe some of these isotopes have been pilfered by someone who might have just lost his family in a US
bombing raid, who then turns to Islamic fundamentalism and vents his rage against us here in America. A
'dirty nuclear bomb' going off in a crowded subway or sports stadium is a very nasty proposition...not just for
its immediate effects, but also what it may mean for our subsequent rights and liberties.....


"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #253 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo

Just what the hell is going on there?

They're drilling for oil.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #254 of 631
oops.... I hit reply instead of edit... doh!
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #255 of 631
FEAR! FIRE! FOES!
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #256 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
FEAR! FIRE! FOES!

I hope you aren't correct. I hope those millions marching in the streets all over the world for months aren't correct.
very not welcome news
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #257 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
I hope you aren't correct.

Well he almost never is so we might be OK.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #258 of 631
Thread Starter 
Looks like admin members are now fessing up:

http://www.sundayherald.com/print33628
post #259 of 631
Well that pretty much makes it official. It really doesn't matter if groverat or any others say they don't care. Most of the harping for months from supporters of the war has revolved around WOMD. Are you listening SDW? Or are you back under your rock?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #260 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Well that pretty much makes it official. It really doesn't matter if groverat or any others say they don't care. Most of the harping for months from supporters of the war has revolved around WOMD. Are you listening SDW? Or are you back under your rock?

Those most qualified, the UN inspectors, are not being allowed by the US to take part in the WMD search. (?!!!???!!???!!!!???!!!!?) If anything is now "found", is anyone going to believe it, outside of the US that is?

Another article

This one's worth a read too

BTW, is it legal to lie to Congress, the American people and the rest of the world in order to "justify" and start a war?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #261 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Looks like admin members are now fessing up:

Wow. I didn't even expect this. I always thought they'd find some evidence, just not anything significant. This is ugly.

It also shows my damn thread about impeachment was worth more than a lock!
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #262 of 631
Quote:
BTW, is it legal to lie to Congress, the American people and the rest of the world in order to "justify" and start a war?

Is it illegal? I'd love to see it.

Politicians lie, it's what they do.

Stunning find, junior detectives!
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #263 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat

Stunning find, junior detectives!

What's a stunning find?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #264 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Is it illegal? I'd love to see it.

Politicians lie, it's what they do.

Stunning find, junior detectives!

Hey moderator! That doesn't make it right! Besides shouldn't you be ....well you know more moderate?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #265 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Is it illegal? I'd love to see it.

Politicians lie, it's what they do.

Stunning find, junior detectives!


Hey Clinton was hung out to dry for lieing about less! Of course when Democrats lie about infidelity it's terrible. When a Republican lies to start a war and it results in the death of many people it's no big deal.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #266 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Politicians lie, it's what they do.

No, they don't. At least we all know that they shouldn't. That's just an excuse for Bush apologists.

Bush lied to congress and the American people (that's me) resulting in death, financial burden and internatonal outrage. hundreds of billions of our tax dollars will be spent on these ideas which are apparently not justified enough to pursue through honest debate. That is unacceptable.

All presidents lie, so it's okay? My god this world is going to hell. Don't you realize how horrible your ideas are, Groverat? Don't you have any conscience?
post #267 of 631
Our old chum Saddam was a horror story...
but call *this* liberation?



The only "liberation" experienced so far by the Iraqis is the
"liberation" of their historical arts and artifacts. looks like Tommy Franks and others have been working for others besides the US government....

General Myers lying through his teeth again. He says just ONE death due to cluster bombs! For a more reliable civilian casualty list go to:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net

And of course the Bush admin is still lying....
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #268 of 631
I haven't been following this thread much, but there's an op-ed in this morning's NY Times about this.
Quote:
Patrick Lang, a former head of Middle Eastern affairs in the Defense Intelligence Agency, says that he hears from those still in the intelligence world that when experts wrote reports that were skeptical about Iraq's W.M.D., "they were encouraged to think it over again."

"In this administration, the pressure to get product `right' is coming out of O.S.D. [the Office of the Secretary of Defense]," Mr. Lang said. He added that intelligence experts had cautioned that Iraqis would not necessarily line up to cheer U.S. troops and that the Shiite clergy could be a problem. "The guys who tried to tell them that came to understand that this advice was not welcome," he said.
post #269 of 631
Funny, the usually very vocal conservatives seem strangely absent from this thread now.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #270 of 631
Thread Starter 
Don't worry. The Bush lemmings will be back as soon as the Bush admin comes up with a plan to try to wriggle out. I hear they are going to try to say they found a mobile bio lab, though the lab will have no traces of bio material (remember, the mobile lab thing was just something that Butler and Ritter thought up one day and never had any substance more than that).

until then, check out hersh's new article in the New yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact
post #271 of 631
Did you ever hear of "Chemical Sally?" I didn't either, but apparently we caught her. Hooray?



EDIT: How dubious a name.....
post #272 of 631
Here's a fine (albeit slightly lengthy) article by Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker re. national security and the Iraq war. Lots of info here:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #273 of 631
jimmac:

Quote:
Hey Clinton was hung out to dry for lieing about less! Of course when Democrats lie about infidelity it's terrible. When a Republican lies to start a war and it results in the death of many people it's no big deal.

Straw man!

You go, boy!

--

tonton:

Quote:
[b]No, they don't. At least we all know that they shouldn't. That's just an excuse for Bush apologists.

Yeah, gotta uphold the moral authority of the office... oh wait are you sure you aren't a circa-1998 Republican senator?

Quote:
Bush lied to congress and the American people (that's me) resulting in death, financial burden and internatonal outrage. hundreds of billions of our tax dollars will be spent on these ideas which are apparently not justified enough to pursue through honest debate. That is unacceptable.

Well technically the lies saved lives in the long run, since our reason for strangling Iraqis for the previous 12 years with sanctions was also a lie, WoMD.

We had to slaughter them with a destroyed economic system and corruption with a few bombs sprinkled in because of WoMD.

What, exactly, changed beside the power of Saddam Hussein in the forseeable future for the Iraqi people? What really changed?

Quote:
All presidents lie, so it's okay? My god this world is going to hell. Don't you realize how horrible your ideas are, Groverat? Don't you have any conscience?

I don't give a rat's ass if the president lies if the result is a net positive.

Call me a crazy realist. Looking for an honest politician is like trying to find an albino squirrel on campus during finals week.

I didn't give a rat's nutsack when Clinton lied about WoMD to justify bombing Iraq in Desert Fox and I didn't give a rat's nutsack when Bush lied about WoMD to oust Saddam. (Though Clinton's was a bit more troubling morally since it didn't accomplish anything real.)

---

SJO:

Quote:
The only "liberation" experienced so far by the Iraqis is the "liberation" of their historical arts and artifacts.

Why not show a tiny shred of intellectual honesty and admit that the liberation fo the Iraqi people from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein and the removal of the UN sanctions regime were amazingly positive and very real things?

Why not just TRY to be a little objective and honest?

I swear, you can still be petty and bitter. It won't kill you.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #274 of 631
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
jimmac:



Straw man!

You go, boy!

--

tonton:



Yeah, gotta uphold the moral authority of the office... oh wait are you sure you aren't a circa-1998 Republican senator?



Well technically the lies saved lives in the long run, since our reason for strangling Iraqis for the previous 12 years with sanctions was also a lie, WoMD.

We had to slaughter them with a destroyed economic system and corruption with a few bombs sprinkled in because of WoMD.

What, exactly, changed beside the power of Saddam Hussein in the forseeable future for the Iraqi people? What really changed?



I don't give a rat's ass if the president lies if the result is a net positive.

Call me a crazy realist. Looking for an honest politician is like trying to find an albino squirrel on campus during finals week.

I didn't give a rat's nutsack when Clinton lied about WoMD to justify bombing Iraq in Desert Fox and I didn't give a rat's nutsack when Bush lied about WoMD to oust Saddam. (Though Clinton's was a bit more troubling morally since it didn't accomplish anything real.)

---

SJO:



Why not show a tiny shred of intellectual honesty and admit that the liberation fo the Iraqi people from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein and the removal of the UN sanctions regime were amazingly positive and very real things?

Why not just TRY to be a little objective and honest?

I swear, you can still be petty and bitter. It won't kill you.

Yes, yes, yes lots of people lie in this world. The thing to do is not to just shrug your shoulders and say " Oh well, everybody does it " That's part of the problem. The thing to do ( especially with leaders ) is to aspire towards the truth when possible. Especially when dealing with your own people. Anything else will get you into trouble. Just ask Clinton.

I don't know how old you are but you should have learned those values by now.

Besideds it's becoming pretty clear the invasion in Iraq wasn't about any of the things you talk about.

" Why not just TRY to be a little objective and honest? "

Honest being the key word here.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #275 of 631
Quote:
SJO: Why not show a tiny shred of intellectual honesty and admit that the liberation fo the Iraqi people from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein and the removal of the UN sanctions regime were amazingly positive and very real things?

Kid yourself not. You know as well as anyone else that the "liberation" of the Iraqi people was NOT the reason for starting the war. The Bush administration doesn't give a rat's ass about the Iraqi people, as you put it, and is now using the convenient side effect of Saddam's downfall and the future liberation potential for the Iraqi people as a moral distraction, knowing that the US people, a generally decent bunch of folks would appreciate it, in the absence of facts.

Right now...and for the forseeable future, life for the Iraqis has gone from bad to much worse. New additions to their hell include a dusk to dawn curfew, unreliable electricity, little food and water, spreading disease , hundreds of children killed by picking up cluster bomblets in residential areas, random shooting in the streets..and all the other crap that accompanies occupation. In all the intense leafletting campaign that preceded the war for weeks, there was not a single piece of advice/warning regarding cluster bomblets for Iraqi civilians. Supposed to be liberating those folk eh? From their lives perhaps.

The reason for the war...as sold to the US people, was to "disarm Saddam's regime of WMD because they posed a grave and imminent danger to the United States". In the absence of WMD, and all the other shifting reasons, all lies, given to "justify" the war...they are now capitalizing on a phoney ethical leaning post...a nice little electioneering touch. The Bush administration has no limits to the depths they plumb.

Nobody's sad that Saddam is gone (has he really...$1 billion+ can buy all kinds of favors). If Saddam hadn't walked into Kuwait 13 years back, the US would probably *still* be on his side. Get you head out of Fox news, Groverat and smell some reality. The war was a bad idea, and it will come back and bite us...as does all short-sighted, misguided foreign policy.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #276 of 631
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
New additions to their hell include a dusk to dawn curfew, unreliable electricity, little food and water, spreading disease , hundreds of children killed by picking up cluster bomblets in residential areas, random shooting in the streets..and all the other crap that accompanies occupation.

Don't forget immense unemployment:

Quote:
Numerous documents suggest that the U.S. is determined to privatize several of Iraqs industries. [Heritage Foundation, 9/25/02; Observer, 11/3/02; Washington Post, 4/21/03; Wall Street Journal, 5/1/03] This would have a significant impact on Iraqs workforce, 75% of which had previously relied upon Saddams government or military for employment. A May 5, 2003 article in the New York Times revealed that the U.S. authority in Iraq had done little to absorb former government employees. The article reported that in Baghdad, thousands of Iraqis [were] begging for work from the newly arrived American administrators. In one instance, reported the newspaper, hundreds of angry Iraqis swarmed into the lobby of the Palestine Hotel ... and protested for hours about their inability to get work from the American administrators, who ... have their headquarters inside the marble halls of the Republican Palace. ... Outside ..., soldiers turned away hundreds of Iraqis begging to put in job applications. [New York Times, 5/5/03]

CCR
post #277 of 631
jimmac:

Quote:
I don't know how old you are but you should have learned those values by now.

I'm also old enough to know not to expect honesty from politicians, and I'm sure as hell old enough to value real results over 100% honesty from said politicians.

---

SJO:

Quote:
Right now...and for the forseeable future, life for the Iraqis has gone from bad to much worse. New additions to their hell include a dusk to dawn curfew, unreliable electricity, little food and water, spreading disease , hundreds of children killed by picking up cluster bomblets in residential areas, random shooting in the streets..and all the other crap that accompanies occupation.

- Curfew: I don't see what the hell that matters.
- Unreliable electricity: You mean like they had before the war?
- Little food and water: You mean like they had before the war?
- Spreading disease: You mean like they had before the war?
- Hundreds of children killed by picking up cluster bomblets in residential areas: Got any source for that?
- Random shooting: Again, any sources?

Really, SJO, this is pathetic even for you.

Face it, the Iraqi people are better off right now and undoubtedly in the forseeable future. I guess we can ignore the thousands upon thousands of political prisoners who were tortured, raped and beaten by Hussein. Show me a dead baby picture and make it all go away!

That ONE LINK is all you could find? What a joke.

--

giant:

Quote:
Don't forget immense unemployment:

Yeah, Iraq was a real worker's haven before. I wonder why 60% of the people lived off international assistance programs before the war.

proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #278 of 631
Quote:
SJO: Curfew: I don't see what the hell that matters.

What?????? I can't believe you said that....but I guess you did...

Quote:
- Unreliable electricity: You mean like they had before the war?

Maybe not to US standards for sure...but Iraq was one of the most "westernized" nations before the sanctions. The electricity system there has been trashed.

Quote:
- Little food and water: You mean like they had before the war?
- Spreading disease: You mean like they had before the war?
- Hundreds of children killed by picking up cluster bomblets in residential areas: Got any source for that?
- Random shooting: Again, any sources?

I have read more articles about this kind of stuff than many people have had hot dinners. I shall dig them up tonight igf I have a spare 15 minutes. I'm amazed you haven't read anything about it...but there agin, Fox and Co don't run articles counter to administration policy.

Quote:
Really, SJO, this is pathetic even for you.

Face it, the Iraqi people are better off right now and undoubtedly in the forseeable future. I guess we can ignore the thousands upon thousands of political prisoners who were tortured, raped and beaten by Hussein. Show me a dead baby picture and make it all go away!

That ONE LINK is all you could find? What a joke.

A quick glance thru the media....it doesnt take much effort really. Apologies I couldn't find anything on the FOX network that was relevant...but we wouldnt exactly expect anything now would we?

Incidentally, the curfew (or lack of) is probably a good mark of defining how "liberated" a place is. The Iraq curfew is now probably permanent.

Cluster bombs

"Liberation"?

Liberation? US rehiring Saddam's brutes

More on "Liberation" or rather, chaos

Now *HERE"S* some liberation for you

Liberation?

Look who supported the looting

From one dictator to the next...

Cluster Bombs....

And......they keep on misleading

and lying
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #279 of 631
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat


Yeah, Iraq was a real worker's haven before. I wonder why 60% of the people lived off international assistance programs before the war.

I'm sure the country's GDP decrease from $60b to $5.7b (99) due toi sanctions had something to do with that.
post #280 of 631
SJO:

Quote:
What?????? I can't believe you said that....but I guess you did...

Contrast and compare between Saddam w/out curfews and curfews w/out Saddam if you would and tell me how this is worse (knowing that it is temporary).

Quote:
Maybe not to US standards for sure...but Iraq was one of the most "westernized" nations before the sanctions. The electricity system there has been trashed.

"before the sanctions"

You're moving the goalposts, SJO, we are talking about lies to go to war, not to impose sanctions. The sanctions lies were not GeeDub's. Those were his daddy's and Clinton's.

Quote:
I have read more articles about this kind of stuff than many people have had hot dinners. I shall dig them up tonight igf I have a spare 15 minutes. I'm amazed you haven't read anything about it...but there agin, Fox and Co don't run articles counter to administration policy.

If you can show one instance of me ever citing FoxNews for anything I'd love to see it. The fact that you rely on such an easy attack shows how amazingly weak your position is.

Lies from the administration or no, Iraq is in a much better position for progress than it was before the war.

--

Cluster bombs:
Bad stuff, but sanctions killed 274 a day.

Again, your sources never cease to amaze me. I find it endlessly amusing that you attack my credibility with ludicrous accusations of relying on FoxNews when your sources are mostly paranoia sites. (For God's sake one is called LIBERALSLANT.COM!)

For every one of your amazingly biased opinion pieces I can find 5 stories of Saddam's horrible deeds, it's really a pointless action you undertake to hide the fact that this operation has been a tremendous success.

There's chaos in a city whose government has just been removed, HOW SHOCKING!

IraqBodyCount.net tells us ~2500 civilians have been killed to this point. That's less than 10 days of sanctions that George W. Bush removed.

"BUT! BUT! What about the opinion piece from LIBERALSLANT.COM!?!?!"

--

giant:

Quote:
I'm sure the country's GDP decrease from $60b to $5.7b (99) due toi sanctions had something to do with that.

DO YOU THINK, SHERLOCK!?

Wow, what a stunning financial analysis, Mr. Greenspan, I hope you haven't taken too much time from your busy schedule to point out something so difficult to decipher.

Guess what's gone now... I'll give you 10 seconds.

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THE SANCTIONS!

Cookie for you, Alan, you win the big prize!

No Saddam and No Sanctions = A Good Thing

Is the light bulb firing up yet?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
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