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The Bush admin is still lying to start a war - Page 3  

post #81 of 631
Thread Starter 
More info on the tubes (from before powell's speech, making them all the more important):

[quote]After weeks of investigation, U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq are increasingly confident that the aluminum tubes were never meant for enriching uranium, according to officials familiar with the inspection process. … New evidence supporting that conclusion has been gathered in recent weeks and will be presented to the U.N. Security Council ….The quantity and specifications of the tubes -- narrow, silver cylinders measuring 81 millimeters in diameter and about a meter in length -- made them ill-suited to enrich uranium without extensive modification, the experts said. But they are a perfect fit for a well-documented 81mm conventional rocket program in place for two decades. Iraq imported the same aluminum tubes for rockets in the 1980s. The new tubes it tried to purchase actually bear an inscription that includes the word ‘rocket,’ according to one official who examined them. <hr></blockquote>

Washington Post 1.24.3 from lexis-nexis
post #82 of 631
Thread Starter 
So the US is supplying false info to the inspectors.
[quote]So frustrated have the inspectors become that one source has referred to the U.S. intelligence they've been getting as "garbage after garbage after garbage." In fact, Phillips says the source used another cruder word. <hr></blockquote>

some examples include: [quote]
Example: satellite photographs purporting to show new research buildings at Iraqi nuclear sites. When the U.N. went into the new buildings they found "nothing."


Example: Saddam's presidential palaces, where the inspectors went with specific coordinates supplied by the U.S. on where to look for incriminating evidence. Again, they found "nothing."


Example: Interviews with scientists about the aluminum tubes the U.S. says Iraq has imported for enriching uranium, but which the Iraqis say are for making rockets. Given the size and specification of the tubes, the U.N. calls the "Iraqi alibi air tight."

[Example:] Discovering that the al-Samoud 2 has been flying too far in tests has been one of the inspectors' major successes. But the missile has only been exceeding its 93-mile limit by about 15 miles and that, the Iraqis say, is because it isn't yet loaded down with its guidance system. The al-Samoud 2 is not the 800-mile-plus range missile that Secretary of State Colin Powell insists Iraq is developing
<hr></blockquote>

from <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml" target="_blank">cbsnews.com</a>

[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
post #83 of 631
Inspectors now complaining that US intelligence sending them on "wild goose chases".

<a href="http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/022303A.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/022303A.htm</a>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
post #84 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Inspectors now complaining that US intelligence sending them on "wild goose chases".

<a href="http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/022303A.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/022303A.htm</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

deja vu.
It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.
It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.
post #85 of 631
If the New York Times says anything against a conservative, it is a lie.

If they say anything in favor of a liberal position, it is a lie.

Saddam is breaking the terms of the 1991 Gulf War cease-fire, therefore hostilities AUTOMATICALLY resume.

Screw the pacifists (they like it).

J.C. Corbin, Apple Certified Technical Coordinator
Member, Apple Consultants Network
www.ro3.com
J.C. Corbin, Apple Certified Technical Coordinator
Member, Apple Consultants Network
www.ro3.com
post #86 of 631
Oh, for crying out loud.

"Hi, I'm from the Iraqi government. I'd like to order some aluminum tubes."

"What size, sir?"

"Well, I really need some that are 79 mm, with the following specs." Hands paper to supplier.

"Sir, these specs are for enriching uranium. I can't sell you these."

"Can you meet all the same specs, except make them 81 mm and market as rocket bodies?"

"Yes, sir."

"Good. We'll just grind them down to 79mm after the Inspectors leave."

"Cash or charge, sir?"

"Do you take oil?"
J.C. Corbin, Apple Certified Technical Coordinator
Member, Apple Consultants Network
www.ro3.com
J.C. Corbin, Apple Certified Technical Coordinator
Member, Apple Consultants Network
www.ro3.com
post #87 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Inspectors now complaining that US intelligence sending them on "wild goose chases".

<a href="http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/022303A.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/022303A.htm</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course they're complaining -- it's probably tiring out their seeing-eye dogs.

Thank goodness for truthout.org! Without them, we'd never know what the facts were!

From what I've seen and read, I haven't caught the President in a lie, and I can't remember CNN or any of the other reputable media outlets leading with a "Bush is lying" story. Since they seem to take every other opportunity to disparage the President, I find it unlikely that they'd miss such a great chance to really nail him on something so clear-cut and obvious.
Never had ONE lesson.
Never had ONE lesson.
post #88 of 631
What's even more funny is that only a little while ago SJO was complaining (in the same breath with "the inspections are working", of course) about why doesn't US intelligence share the "valuable" info that they have with Blix and friends. Now that they have, it's all about "wild goose chases". Evidently, the inspectors have become the "hero without a clue" because all of the clues they do get always end up being "no good". <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> I'd sure hate to be in their shoes. Basically they have to deal with all these different parties, each with their own agenda, and report to another group which has still more agendas of their own. It never ends.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #89 of 631
<a href="http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=242726&lang=e&dir=news" target="_blank">Iraq isn't a threat to anyone.</a>
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #90 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong><a href="http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=242726&lang=e&dir=news" target="_blank">Iraq isn't a threat to anyone.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

All countries are threats to their neighbors. What's your point?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #91 of 631
Officials in the Bush Admin. tell fabrications, distortions, exaggerations and outright lies. So does Bush Sr. as does America's little pet puppet poodle Tony Blair.

<a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p01s02-wosc.html" target="_blank">http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p01s02-wosc.html</a>

<a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.htm" target="_blank">http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1028-09.htm" target="_blank">http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1028-09.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cohen1.html" target="_blank">http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cohen1.html</a>

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8759-2002Sep26&notFound=true" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8759-2002Sep26&notFound=true</a>

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html?ex=1045026775&ei=1&en=8b68bcf4d430d35a " target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html?ex=1045026775&ei=1&en=8b68bcf4d430d35a </a>

<a href="http://newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr_archive02" target="_blank">http://newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr_archive02</a>

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/17/international/middleeast/17ASSE.html?pagewanted=2&th" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/17/international/middleeast/17ASSE.html?pagewanted=2&th</a>

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A41330-2003Feb21?language=printer" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A41330-2003Feb21?language=printer</a>

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A134-2003Feb12.html" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A134-2003Feb12.html</a>

<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,889135,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,889135,00.html</a>

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/06/international/middleeast/06ANSA.html?ex=1045550702&ei=1&en=74ae0f77bed509f4 " target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/06/international/middleeast/06ANSA.html?ex=1045550702&ei=1&en=74ae0f77bed509f4 </a>

<a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/867733.asp" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.com/news/867733.asp</a>

<a href="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/31/1043804520548.html" target="_blank">http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/31/1043804520548.html</a>

<a href="http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20030206/dossier.html" target="_blank">http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20030206/dossier.html</a>

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/09/weekinreview/09MELM.html?ex=1045801153&ei=1&en=9eb5a98849377a63 " target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/09/weekinreview/09MELM.html?ex=1045801153&ei=1&en=9eb5a98849377a63 </a>

<a href="http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=442NLNJNEXPJGCRBAELCF EY?type=worldNews&storyID=2188616" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=442NLNJNEXPJGCRBAELCF EY?type=worldNews&storyID=2188616</a>

<a href="http://www.antiwar.com/rep/utley9.html" target="_blank">http://www.antiwar.com/rep/utley9.html</a>

<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/06/60minutes/main532107.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/06/60minutes/main532107.shtml</a>

<a href="http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021222_711.html" target="_blank">http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021222_711.html</a>

<a href="http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14518" target="_blank">http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14518</a>

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/21/international/21PRAG.html?ex=1036252587&ei=1&en=b6dac247936f2879 " target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/21/international/21PRAG.html?ex=1036252587&ei=1&en=b6dac247936f2879 </a>

<a href="http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20021023/index.php" target="_blank">http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20021023/index.php</a>

<a href="http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Jensen_Speech.htm" target="_blank">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Jensen_Speech.htm</a>

A 5 minute search dives us a glance of the tip of the iceberg.

If Bush and gang have such a cast iron case to attack Iraq, then why do they have to resort to serial lies to the American people and the world to "justify" it?

If any of you armchair generals in A.O. slobbering at the bit for a fireworks display on television can make me feel more comfortable about spending $1 trillion dollars in the next 7 fiscal years (GAO estimate), trash the already plummeting economy and your parents' 401k's and make ourselves even more hated in the Arab world than we are now, then lets hear your reasons for going to war, rather than doing this in a civilized way. What is *your* justification for admitting failure, forgetting the most basic of kindergarten lessons, and starting a fight.

Saddam Hussein, being a Right Wing dictator, is no friend of mine.

There's lies, there's damned lies, and there's BULLSHIT. Time to eliminate mad cowboy disease. War is SOOOOO last millennium.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
post #92 of 631
"armchair generals" seems to be the new buzzword with the anti-war crowd. Once you hear that term uttered, you know they have been reading from the hotpicks of the day "agenda". Seriously, having an opinion on the war doesn't make you an "armchair general". Second-guessing and criticizing the strategies and initiatives of real generals, OTOH, does make you one (or at the very least, an armchair something). Ironically, that would seem to implicate certain vocal elements of the antiwar crowd all too accurately. Evidently, some of these persons feel so confident of their armchair-manship that they frequently make wild assertions that the US will be doing indiscriminant carpet bombings to intentionally eradicate the Iraqi people directly as a measure of war. Then they go on to expound their superior leadership skills in noting how N. Korea deserves an a$$ kicking far more venomously than Iraq. The list goes on, but those 2 are such goodies.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #93 of 631
[quote]What is *your* justification for admitting failure, forgetting the most basic of kindergarten lessons, and starting a fight.<hr></blockquote>

It's the only way to disarm Iraq.

Next question.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #94 of 631
[quote]It's the only way to disarm Iraq.

Next question.<hr></blockquote>

Give me some facts that warrant the last resort of warfare as opposed to inpsections. I have yet to hear something from Bush and co. which hasn't yet been soundly debunked. What are *your* justifications....or are you just swallowing Bush Admin propaganda without a cursory examination?

If they have to fabricate and lie so extensively in attempting to convince the electorate that war is right thing...then it follows that their case is either damned weak or nonexistent.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
post #95 of 631
[quote]<strong>Give me some facts that warrant the last resort of warfare as opposed to inpsections.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Inspections have not worked and there is no indication that they will. Iraq has and will take every opportunity to delay and stall and deceive inspectors.

-

I didn't watch Powell's deal and I don't really know what he even talked about. So you can go ahead and rule that "oh he's just spoon-fed by the administration" garbage out immediately.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #96 of 631
Now he's lying to the Americam people about the economy. He just doesn't stop.

<a href="http://www.newsday.com/business/printedition/ny-e3142018feb23,0,2678986.story" target="_blank">http://www.newsday.com/business/printedition/ny-e3142018feb23,0,2678986.story</a>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
post #97 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
Inspections have not worked and there is no indication that they will. Iraq has and will take every opportunity to delay and stall and deceive inspectors.<hr></blockquote>

Here's the opinion of the quality of intelligence received from the US Government by the inspectors in Iraq. If the CIA etc know where these apparent WMD are, (if they exist)...they sure aren't telling the inspectors. Why not?

<a href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12665854&method=full&siteid=5014 3" target="_blank">http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12665854&method=full&siteid=5014 3</a>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
post #98 of 631
SO, let's recap:

Colin Powell's list of Iraqi violations as delivered to the USSC seems to be bogus (don't forget that reporters visited the "Chemicals factory" and found a bakery).

The Inspectors think Powell's stuff was a bit hokey.

The Inspectors think they can disarm Saddam.

Iran doesn't want a war. Turkey doesn't want a war. Kuwait doesn't want a war. Two of those got invaded (you remember, back when Iraq HAD AN ARMY). Who else borders Iraq? Oh yeh, Saudi. Uh, they don't a war either. America and the UK know what's best for 'em -- he's a threat to regional security.

Invading Iraq will increase Islamic terrorism (I believe Groverat disagrees, but much as I admire him he's clearly on drugs).

EDIT: Removed something about Iraqi democracy (lack thereof in post-Saddam world) which I can't fully back up right now.

The UN reckon we're looking up to a few million starving people and a few million people without homes or refugee'd. We gun LIBRATE yuh even 'f we KILLYA.

Osama bin Laden is rubbing his hands at the thought of the fall of what he calls "an infidel" -- Saddam -- as that's one less secular state, one more state in turmoil where he can forment a bit of Islamic fundamentalist angst.

The French have HUGE contracts with the Iraqi oil industry. Iraqi oil is priced in euros which have increased in value relative to the dollar by 30% since the arrangement was made, boosting the oil-for-food revenues hugely. Rumsfeld says these contracts are not beneficial to the Iraqi people. In other, totally unrelated, news, UK and US oil companies have no significant contracts in Iraq.

French anti-war sentiment is all about oil. Unlike US pro-war sentiment, which is NOTHING about oil.

There is, there really was a supertanker called the "Condoleeza Rice." It's been renamed "SS Altair Voyager" now for some reason.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Harald ]

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Harald ]</p>
meh
meh
post #99 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

It's the only way to disarm Iraq. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I won't go so far as to say this is a lie, because you probably believe it. But it's certainly not true.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #100 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

Inspections have not worked and there is no indication that they will. Iraq has and will take every opportunity to delay and stall and deceive inspectors. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Inspections have worked in the past and will continue to do so as Blix has stated. So, since you're wrong to say that "inspections have not worked and there is no indication that they will", why is war the only way to disarm Iraq?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #101 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by Harald:
<strong>Osama bin Laden is rubbing his hands at the thought of the fall of what he calls "an infidel" -- Saddam -- as that's one less secular state, one more state in turmoil where he can forment a bit of Islamic fundamentalist angst.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Islam is the state religion in Iraq.
A secular state does not have a state religion.
Hence Iraq is not a secular state.

Iraq may not be a fundamnetalist state in comparison to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, although it is one in comparison to any western country and even to some neighbouring ones such as Jordan, but that's besides the point.

Osama bin Ladin would be happy to see any escalation of violence between the USA and any mainly Muslim country as it would fuel his Jihad against Jews and Crusaders propaganda among Muslims as well as non-Muslims.
But that's also besides the point.

The point being that such modern political myths as Iraq is a secular state, Mossadegh was democratically elected, Israel is a racist state, or the USA helped the Taliban against the Soviets, are imprevious to facts or reality.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Immanuel Goldstein ]</p>
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #102 of 631
SJO:

[quote]<strong>Here's the opinion of the quality of intelligence received from the US Government by the inspectors in Iraq. If the CIA etc know where these apparent WMD are, (if they exist)...they sure aren't telling the inspectors. Why not?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are so predictable it hurts.

I get none of my opinions on this matter from things that the administration says. The fact that you fall back to bashing the administration instead of MY words shows me you have little to offer.

-

bunge:

[quote]<strong>I won't go so far as to say this is a lie, because you probably believe it. But it's certainly not true.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How else will Iraq be disarmed?

[quote]<strong>Inspections have worked in the past and will continue to do so as Blix has stated. So, since you're wrong to say that "inspections have not worked and there is no indication that they will", why is war the only way to disarm Iraq?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If they worked in the past, why are we here now? If this process could be successful why are we at the impasse we are at now?

Did we not give the process enough time?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #103 of 631
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:

From what I've seen and read, I haven't caught the President in a lie, and I can't remember CNN or any of the other reputable media outlets leading with a "Bush is lying" story.<hr></blockquote>

Funny. What do you call fabricating non-existent IAEA reports?

[quote]Since they seem to take every other opportunity to disparage the President. <hr></blockquote>

I guess everyone sees what they want to. Too bad you haven't realized that yet.

[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:


Islam is the state religion in Iraq.
A secular state does not have a state religion.
Hence Iraq is not a secular state.<hr></blockquote>

Not this bullshit again
post #104 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
If they worked in the past, why are we here now? If this process could be successful why are we at the impasse we are at now?

Did we not give the process enough time?</strong><hr></blockquote>

What impasse?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #105 of 631
[quote]You are so predictable it hurts.

I get none of my opinions on this matter from things that the administration says.<hr></blockquote>

Where you get your opinions from btw? Please tell the world what indisputable facts that you have unearthed, apart from what the administration is touting (much of which is based on fabrications), that tell you that war is the best way of solving this issue. Shouldn't you be in Iraq helping out the inspectors?

[quote] The fact that you fall back to bashing the administration instead of MY words shows me you have little to offer.<hr></blockquote>

Of course I am bashing the administration, as is most of the rest of the world. If they have to lie to Congress, the American people and the world on a serial basis to lead us by the nose into war, then they deserve all the bashing anyone can muster.

Tell me some of your justifications for starting this war, and gave me the opportunity to bash you as well. So far you haven't said anything of significance, apart from reiterating the Bush admin mantra "Iraq must be disarmed".
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
post #106 of 631
Thread Starter 
It's so amazing to me who many people on this board eat up propaganda. The Bush Admin has already decided to go to war, even though they say otherwise. And some of you people think you are not ever being decieved by the Bush Admin!

[quote]"You are not going to decide whether there is war in Iraq or not," the diplomat said U.S. officials told him. "That decision is ours, and we have already made it. It is already final. The only question now is whether the council will go along with it or not."<hr></blockquote>

from <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62438-2003Feb24.html" target="_blank">the Washington Post</a>

Even threatening the security coucil.

Not that it's a secret that the Bush admin's support base is the result of bribing:

<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/2003-02-25-unwilling.htm" target="_blank">USA Today chart</a>

All of this is very interesting, considering the inspections are showing progress:

<a href="http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2285263" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2285263</a>

<a href="http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAQIOBOHCD.html" target="_blank">http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAQIOBOHCD.html</a>
post #107 of 631
Thread Starter 
Well, some of the biggest claims the US has made against Iraq have turned out to be false (like you needed me to tell you ):

[quote]Powell argued that Iraq had intended to use the aluminum tubes as part of a nuclear weapons program and not for artillery rockets as critics had argued. To support his case, he cited unusually precise specifications and high tolerances for heat and stress. He said, “It strikes me as quite odd that these tubes are manufactured to a tolerance that far exceeds U.S. requirements for comparable rockets. Maybe Iraqis just manufacture their conventional weapons to a higher standard than we do, but I don't think so.” But other sources noted that the tubes’ dimensions were identical to that of Iraq's existing arsenal of 81mm artillery rockets. In fact, Iraq used the same type of aluminum tubes in the 1980s. [Washington Post, 2/5/03g] Powell also suggested that because the tubes were ‘anodized’ it was unlikely that they had been designed for conventional use. But experts later contested this, saying that this attribute actually made it less probable that they were meant for a nuclear program. The Institute for Science and International Security, a research organization specializing in nuclear issues, said that Powell's staff had been explained the implications of the anodized coatings prior to Powell’s presentation. “Despite being presented with the falseness of this claim, the administration persists in making misleading arguments about the significance of the tubes,” David Albright, a nuclear physicist observed. [Washington Post, 3/8/03]
<hr></blockquote>

and it's now known Iraq did not try to get uranium from Niger:
[quote]Chief Weapons Inspector ElBaradei of the IAEA said that his inspectors had failed to find any evidence that Iraq had tried to obtain uranium from Niger. In fact, he said that the documents upon which the U.S. had been basing it accusations were fakes. “Based on thorough analysis, the IAEA has concluded, with the concurrence of outside experts, that documents which formed the basis for the reports of recent uranium transactions between Iraq and Niger are in fact not authentic,” ElBaradei explained. “We have therefore concluded that these specific allegations are unfounded.” [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/03; Washington Post, 3/8/03; Associated Press, 3/7/03; CNN, 3/7/03; New York Times, 3/8/03; Reuters, 3/7/03; Globe and Mail, 3/8/03; Guardian, 3/8/03; Associated Press, 3/8/03] The forged documents were described as several letters that had allegedly been exchanged between Iraqi agents and Niger officials [Washington Post, 3/8/03]. The letters had been sold to Italian intelligence by a con man and later handed over to the French before eventually making its way to the UN. But careful examination of these correspondences by the International Atomic Energy Agency [AIEA] revealed that several of the names and titles of officials mentioned in the documents were incorrect. [Globe and Mail, 3/8/03] “Close scrutiny and cross-checking of the documents, the letterheads on them, the signatures on them, led us to conclude with quite absolute certainty that the documents were false,” explained one IAEA official. [Guardian, 3/8/03] U.S. officials admitted the documents were not authentic. “We fell for it,” one official told the The Washington Post. [Washington Post, 3/8/03] Reported the Guardian: “The fabrication was transparently obvious and quickly established,” adding that this suggested “that British intelligence was either easily hoodwinked or a knowing party to the deceit.” [Guardian, 3/8/03]
<hr></blockquote>

from cooperative research

also, after much effort to connect 9/11 and Iraq, Bush has publicly admitted that there is no connection between Iraq and 9/11:

[quote]Q One question for you both. Do you believe that there is a link between Saddam Hussein, a direct link, and the men who attacked on September the 11th?

THE PRESIDENT: I can't make that claim.
<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030131-23.html" target="_blank">whitehouse transcript</a>

That interesting, considering in just october 66% of americans believed saddam was involved in the attacks![Poll Sees Americans Taking Bush Line on Iraq, Reuters, 10.10.2]

Even in January 03, 50% of Americans believed that at least one of the 9/11 hijackers came from Iraq, and only 17% said none did!!!
<a href="http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4911975.htm" target="_blank">knight-ridder poll</a>

No wonder we are going to war! Look at how insanely uninformed America is, and not just the hawk-wannabes on AI!

What I don't understand is how some of you people keep latching on to propaganda put out by the US government, even though you know they are blatantly lying or exaggerating. Are you that much in need of violent Romanesque reality-tv entertainment?

[ 03-10-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
post #108 of 631
Yep!
post #109 of 631
OK, now the hawks have to <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/14/MN22108.DTL" target="_blank">strike</a> the excuse that "we're trying to spread democracy" from their list of reasons to go to war....
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #110 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>What impasse?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Almost a month later and the only progress on disarmament is the destruction of a couple-dozen missiles.

THAT impasse.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #111 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

THAT impasse.</strong><hr></blockquote>

War = we disarm him because he's not doing it himself.

If we're going to disarm him, and we can do it through peaceful means, why go to war?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #112 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>OK, now the hawks have to <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/14/MN22108.DTL" target="_blank">strike</a> the excuse that "we're trying to spread democracy" from their list of reasons to go to war....</strong><hr></blockquote>


Some would disagree. Besides just because something may fail doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried.

<a href="http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=scholar&s=drezner031203" target="_blank">CHICAGO SCHOOL
Democracy by America</a>
by Daniel W. Drezner
[quote]
It didn't take long for skeptics to dismiss George W. Bush's pledge to democratize a postwar Iraq. Antiwar activists saw the pledge as a transparent excuse for warmongering. And democracy advocates harshly, and justifiably--criticized the State Department for scotching plans for a postwar federal government in favor of a centralized regime.

...<hr></blockquote>

[ 03-14-2003: Message edited by: Scott ]</p>
post #113 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>War = we disarm him because he's not doing it himself.

If we're going to disarm him, and we can do it through peaceful means, why go to war?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If it's not clear to you by now that we can't disarm Saddam without force then I don't know what else to say to you. I guess for you all of history starts with every new breath.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #114 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>

War = we disarm him because he's not doing it himself.

If we're going to disarm him, and we can do it through peaceful means, why go to war?</strong><hr></blockquote>


So you still cling to the illusion that Iraq will disarm without force? That it can be done without regime change?
post #115 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>


So you still cling to the illusion that Iraq will disarm without force? </strong><hr></blockquote>

No. I believe we can force him to disarm without war though.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #116 of 631
What's the difference, to you?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #117 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>What's the difference, to you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Let the current process unfold and we'll see.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #118 of 631
Try answering the question.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #119 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Try answering the question.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I did. The process is unfolding as we speak, and we're not at war. He'll disarm, just not before we go to war. But if we don't go to war, he'll still disarm.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #120 of 631
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>But if we don't go to war, he'll still disarm.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You said that he would only disarm with force. Explain to me what "force" is.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
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