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Space Shuttle Columbia Explodes over Texas - Page 3

post #81 of 278
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

<a href="http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/prewwii/jgm.htm" target="_blank">John Gillespie Magee, Jr.</a>
shooby doo, shooby doo
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post #82 of 278
Pioneers have the most dangerous jobs, but with out them, our society would stagnate. My condolences go out to their families and the lives of the astronauts were not lost in vain.
post #83 of 278
Well, I don't really think Dan Rather is by any stretch of imagination less-skilled than his cross-network peers. But that's just my opinion. We could agree to disagree and that would be fine.
post #84 of 278
post #85 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>there was some footage of a house on fire in Texas that was reported to have been started by falling debris. It was either on NBC or CNN, but they haven't followed up yet.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

What an insurance claim.
post #86 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by ironchef82:
<strong>Well, isn't there a Soyuz escape pod that they could use? I know that it's case of some sort of catastrophic emergency on the station, but who knows what's going to happen in the aftermath of this. I should know if the ISS has one or not... someone please enlighten me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't imagine 'ejecting' anyone at mach 18, especially at that altitude. As per the flight data recorder- all data is streamed straight to mission control at all times, though I don't know if data is stored locally if their transmitters go down.

This is a sad day.
post #87 of 278
Rest In Peace Columbia

Just a terrible, terrible thing. I feel for the families. My prayers and sympathy go out to them.

I hope this does not end NASA as some of you have speculated. These people knew the risks of their job, and they went ahead because they knew that what they did was important. If we abandon space exploration then their deaths are in vain.
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post #88 of 278
[quote]
TIME.com: What are the immediate implications for the space program of Saturday's disaster?

JK: Following the precedent of the Challenger disaster in 1986, it's unlikely that NASA will undertake any further shuttle missions or any other manned space flights for the next two years. One immediate problem, though, is the International Space Station, which currently has a crew of three on board. They might consider one further flight to bring that crew home ? the other option would be for them to return aboard a Russian Soyuz craft, which isn't the most comfortable or the safest ride. Beyond that, however, the space station is likely to be left unoccupied for a long time. NASA won't want to use the shuttle again until it can establish the cause of today's accident, and fix it. Now that we've lost two shuttles out of a fleet of five, it's even conceivable that the shuttle won't fly again. The shuttle was built as a space truck, and then the International Space Station was built to give it something to do. Both programs are likely to suffer as a result of this disaster.
<hr></blockquote>

Jeffrey Kruger is Time's science corespondent, not a NASA official. Still, this is troubling.
post #89 of 278
I have nothing really to add to this topic, except a little segue of sorts...

Go to <a href="http://www.apple.com" target="_blank">www.apple.com</a> right now.

Now go to this archive of what Apple.com looked like prior to this morning...

<a href="http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/applesite" target="_blank">http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/applesite</a>

EDIT: missed the other post

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #90 of 278
I feel like such a geek posting this, but I still think this is one of the most eloquent, straight forward, rational reasons for pushing the envelope of space travel, courtesy of all things, Babylon 5.

People argue that we shouldn't be there, that we have better things to spend the money on, that it's just a big flashy waste...

[quote]Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu, Einstein, Morobuto, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars.<hr></blockquote>

NASA isn't a waste... it's the first link in our lifeline. Hopefully one we won't need for a long, long time, but one we will eventually use, provided we survive our own problems.

To the crews of Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia: Thank you. Ad astra.
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post #91 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>
People argue that we shouldn't be there, that we have better things to spend the money on, that it's just a big flashy waste...

NASA isn't a waste... it's the first link in our lifeline. Hopefully one we won't need for a long, long time, but one we will eventually use, provided we survive our own problems.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps privatized space travel will become more than a fleeting conversation topic after today's events if that's a consolation.
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post #92 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Barto:
<strong>

PS I think this means NASA is finished

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Barto ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Definitely and un-American comment. NASA is not finished and it's too bad you have this belief. You should know better, just L@@ok at the precedents.

This only makes NASA more knowledgeable and aware -allowing them to fine tune and advance their space technology. Americans are not quitters!!
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post #93 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>I feel like such a geek posting this, but I still think this is one of the most eloquent, straight forward, rational reasons for pushing the envelope of space travel, courtesy of all things, Babylon 5.

People argue that we shouldn't be there, that we have better things to spend the money on, that it's just a big flashy waste...



NASA isn't a waste... it's the first link in our lifeline. Hopefully one we won't need for a long, long time, but one we will eventually use, provided we survive our own problems.

To the crews of Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia: Thank you. Ad astra.</strong><hr></blockquote>


This is so true. I know WE don't have to worry about it...but I too would hate to think that the human race could stay earthbound and come to naught. For all our faults, I think we have done more good than bad. I'd like to think that someday my great^n grandchildren will wake up to a different sunrise. And be able to see others too.
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post #94 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by jkarc21:
<strong>

Definitely and un-American comment. NASA is not finished and it's too bad you have this belief. You should know better, just L@@ok at the precedents.</strong><hr></blockquote>

NASA's not done, but it definitely needs domestic competition and/or help from the private sector.
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post #95 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>NASA isn't a waste... it's the first link in our lifeline. Hopefully one we won't need for a long, long time, but one we will eventually use, provided we survive our own problems.

To the crews of Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia: Thank you. Ad astra.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say the future of man kind does ultimately depend on space travel. I can think of no better cause worth risking your life for.
post #96 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

NASA's not done, but it definitely needs domestic competition and/or help from the private sector.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you a NASA expert??
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post #97 of 278
I think Bush made it rather clear in his speech this afternoon that we are not losing NASA over this. He persisted that NASA and manned space travel was important.

NASA has had some rough times, and those won't be letting up soon. I think this goes to show the importance of finding a way to replace of supplement the shuttle fleet. It's the most expensive and dangerous vehicle on this planet, and I think it has held back our space efforts to an extent.

But NASA has tried how many times to come up with another launch vehicle? I think a cheaper, safer launch vehicle is required to at least supplement the existing shuttle fleet, not necessarily replace.

We'll learn from this experience, NASA will take every measure to ensure it does not happen again, and the shuttle fleet will continue to fly. NASA isn't finished, and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon despite setbacks.
post #98 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by jkarc21:
<strong>

Are you a NASA expert??</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course not, but the privatization argument is not something that requires a PhD to fathom.
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post #99 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by M3D Jack:
<strong>
But NASA has tried how many times to come up with another launch vehicle? I think a cheaper, safer launch vehicle is required to at least supplement the existing shuttle fleet, not necessarily replace.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sure the shuttle SRBs and fuel tanks have gone through exactly those revisions. Even if you ignore the Columbia tragedy today, the shuttle design is 30+ years old on paper. The X-33 may not have been a worthy replacement, but I can bet NASA's drawing board is going to be very busy now...

With only 3 orbiters left, do you think NASA's going to build a new one in the interim?
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post #100 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

Of course not, but the privatization argument is not something that requires a PhD to fathom.</strong><hr></blockquote>


This is true. I think privatization would be a good thing. That doesn't mean the govt should stop funding space research. But I think private industry should be the one to impliment it. Competition would make for better quality. And presumably less waste of resources. That's hardly unAmerican.
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post #101 of 278
Its so sad what happened today. I think i heard a flash of sound this morning around 8 or so and it woke me up I live in Austin. It was faint and wierd sounding and just a long deep swood sound.
Its too bad what happened, and sometimes I think its a waste of human time and energy and now life to think of leaving earth for any reason. But the promise is too great tho to give up. Losses are a part of getting ahead.
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post #102 of 278
truly sad news

as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning?

is it the loss of life, the loss of billions(?) of dollars of tax payers money or is it a dent in the ego of a very patriotic country?

or all of the above?
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post #103 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by lungaretta:
<strong>as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Personally, I've been watching the Shuttle launches (on TV, not IN person) since I can remember. This was a very strange throwback to my youth, when the first shuttle exploded after lift off.

What am I mourning? It's hard to explain. To me, it's bigger than the loss of life and the dollars don't even exist in the equation. If I can put my finger on it I'll let you know.
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post #104 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

Of course not, but the privatization argument is not something that requires a PhD to fathom.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe not a PhD, but some knowledge of NASA other than what you hear from the press.

I have a relative whom is employed by NASA at Johnson's Space Center based in Houston, Texas. The company he's in charge of works for NASA and is a PRIVATE company. Some sectors of NASA are privately owned at this moment and companies compete for the position at regular intervals when their contract expires. They have to give presentations along with other companies at the expiration of the contract and explain why they are the right for the job.
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post #105 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by lungaretta:
<strong>truly sad news

as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning?

is it the loss of life, the loss of billions(?) of dollars of tax payers money or is it a dent in the ego of a very patriotic country?

or all of the above?</strong><hr></blockquote>

As an American, I think I can speak for most of us when I say we mourn the loss of 6 American heroes and 1 Israeli hero. Money has not been brought up by anyone I know or the news. Mourning the loss of human life always comes before thinking about the loss of a multibillion dollar spacecraft. Americans always come together during trying times and crises we as a nation face...

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: filmmaker2002 ]</p>
post #106 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by filmmaker2002:
<strong>As an American, I think I can speak for most of us when I say we morun the loss of 6 American heroes and 1 Israeli hero. Money has not been brought up by anyone I know or the news. Mourning the loss of human life always comes before thinking about the loss of a multibillion dollar spacecraft.</strong><hr></blockquote>

filmmaker2002, people die every day. it's part of living. your heroes fulfilled their part and sent back valuable research data from their mission. they perhaps did more service to humanity in the last week of their lives than most of us do in our entire lives but one shouldn't get caught up too fully in the media frenzy tugging at your heart strings.
this comes as a precursor to the hundreds if not thousands of people who will shortly be losing their lives fighting for what they believe in. it's a shame that on this occasion money (or oil at least) will be the true reason.
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post #107 of 278
I am sorry if I am "giving into the media frenzy," but Laurel Clark is from my hometown and some of my friends knew her...so this hits a little closer to home than it does to you in whatever country you're from. Astronauts are some of the bravest and brightest people in the world, that is one reason we mourn their lost...I don't feel I need to give you anymore reasons other than the fact that they are human beings, 6 of them Americans. If you think all Americans care about is oil, that's your view and I can't do anything to change that...

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: filmmaker2002 ]</p>
post #108 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by lungaretta:
<strong>

...it's a shame that on this occasion money (or oil at least) will be the true reason.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please don't assume.

---

Tis as sad day indeed.

The people are so happy now, their heads are caving in.
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post #109 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by filmmaker2002:
<strong>I am sorry if I am "giving into the media frenzy," but Laurel Clark is from my hometown and some of my friends knew her...so this hits a little closer to home than it does to you in whatever country you're from. </strong><hr></blockquote>
well i guess it's all a bit too close to the bone for you and you are an exception.
[quote]<strong>
Astronauts are some of the bravest and brightest people in the world, that is one reason we mourn their lost...I don't feel I need to give you anymore reasons other than the fact that they are human beings, 6 of them Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
not sure you got my previous post. there was no disparaging to all 7 of them.
[quote]
<strong> If you think all Americans care about is oil, that's your view and I can't do anything to change that...</strong><hr></blockquote>
no i don't think that all americans care about is oil but i do think that the short guy living in the white house does... but that would be drifting waaay off topic. i extended an honest hand of care and curiosity. but i think i would have been best to just let you get on with it.

apologies if i offended anyone.
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post #110 of 278
Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings
post #111 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by filmmaker2002:
<strong>Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings</strong><hr></blockquote>

cool
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post #112 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by filmmaker2002:
<strong>Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings</strong><hr></blockquote>

cool [doh! just when i'm making an exit, safari snafus and double posts... now i'm really gone..]

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: lungaretta ]</p>
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post #113 of 278
Well, not a good morning for me.

My sister woke me up to tell me about it at 8:50, and I rushed to the TV and saw the home videos of Columbia breaking up. Went to the space center after that and tried to find out as much information as I could. My old division mates were there and others were being called in to provide aerodynamics and flight mechanics support. A buddy of mine was already working trying to figure where the crew cabin would have hit the ground. (He was pretty close.)

As far as I know, this is what happened:

1. Before 7:53am, everything was nominal.
2. ~7:53am, portside hydraulic sensors went offline.
3. ~7:56am, portside elevator and aileron temperature sensors went offline.
4. ~7:58am, portside landing gear pressure and temperature sensors went offline.
5. ~8:00am, crew confirms portside landing gear sensor problems.
6. ~8:00am, all communication went offline.

Telemetry data during this time indicated the vehicle was flying fine and in control. Data also indicated the orbiter had an early asymmetric boundary layer transition. That's about what I know. It would be stupid for me to speculate on what happened, so I won't.

I rotated out of the JSC aerodynamcs group last December to work in the biomedical hardware division for awhile, so I won't be privy to exacting details. Anyways, I went into my old division to see if I could help - everyone was shell shocked - but I really wasn't much help since I wasn't a CFD or trajectory person and went home in the afternoon. Plans and people are already in work to figure out how it happened.

In regard to the space station, I guess the only fortunate thing is that Columbia was never manifested to go to station (too heavy), so it doesn't really effect station missions since the other orbiters were used for them. Whether there will be another shuttle mission soon is anyone's guess. It depends on what happened and what the fix is.

In regard to new launch vehicles, especially, station payload class vehicles, it will take 5+ years to create something different if we were to go balls out. I've wanted the shuttle program to be cancelled for a long time because it was way too expensive, but possibly having it happen this way is too surreal and traumitizing. Not even sure if I'll be doing the same anymore.
post #114 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by VanDeWaals:
<strong>


...I think privatization would be a good thing. That doesn't mean the govt should stop funding space research. But I think private industry should be the one to impliment it. Competition would make for better quality. And presumably less waste of resources. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Right on VanDeWalls! Enron, WorldCom, and United Air Lines come to mind as good examples. Maybe the talented and efficient executives, or former executives, of these corporations could be put in charge. Or perhaps NASA could be privatized and merge with AOL Time Warner.

Personally, I think that NASA has done an excellent job over the years in a very difficult and risky area. I think that it is crass and inaccurate to imply that this accident, or difficulties with space travel in general, are the product of a lack of private sector involvement.

And, incidentally, NASA does contract out a great deal of work to the private sector, although not always with good results - think O-Rings.

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Chinney ]</p>
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post #115 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by THT:
<strong>In regard to the space station, I guess the only fortunate thing is that Columbia was never manifested to go to station (too heavy), so it doesn't really effect station missions since the other orbiters were used for them. Whether there will be another shuttle mission soon is anyone's guess. It depends on what happened and what the fix is.

In regard to new launch vehicles, especially, station payload class vehicles, it will take 5+ years to create something different if we were to go balls out. I've wanted the shuttle program to be cancelled for a long time because it was way too expensive, but possibly having it happen this way is too surreal and traumitizing. Not even sure if I'll be doing the same anymore.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In addition to being heavier, Columbia did not have a Canada Arm, correct?

5+ years? I was thinking it would take much, much longer than that. How far along was the X-33? That project seemed to last forever before it was canned, and it didn't at all look ready for anything...

That's why I was wondering about building another shuttle. Realistically it'll be beyond a decade before anything under development is put in service to replace the shuttle fleet.
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post #116 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by lungaretta:
<strong>truly sad news

as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning?

is it the loss of life, the loss of billions(?) of dollars of tax payers money or is it a dent in the ego of a very patriotic country?

or all of the above?</strong><hr></blockquote>

money and "american ego" did not cross my mind until you mentioned it.

the loss of the amazing individuals, their families, etc was enough for me to mourn and show my respect.
post #117 of 278
<strong>Originally posted by Eugene:
In addition to being heavier, Columbia did not have a Canada Arm, correct?</strong>

Columbia can be outfitted with an arm, it just wasn't this flight.

<strong>5+ years? I was thinking it would take much, much longer than that.</strong>

That's balls out. It would most likely involve man-rating the Delta 4 or Atlas 5 HLV vehicles, designing a capsule return system, and a throw-away payload module.

<strong>How far along was the X-33? That project seemed to last forever before it was canned, and it didn't at all look ready for anything...</strong>

X-33 had 5 years of development. It never recovered from its composite tanks failing, and will take a very long time for it to get to a test flight.

<strong>That's why I was wondering about building another shuttle. Realistically it'll be beyond a decade before anything under development is put in service to replace the shuttle fleet.</strong>

Anything with wings will take awhile. Capsules can have shorter development. The Atlas V and Delta IV HLV can get us 90% of the way there. But I expect the shuttles will be in use until at least the space station is complete.
post #118 of 278
Greetings,

I woke this morning to my clock radio set on the radio. As it woke me I heard talk of falling pieces in the north texas area and it was a little later I found this was about the shuttle. It was so very sad for me to find out of this. I had a drive today to meet my customer of a just sold home I completed and on my travels on the Texas highways I saw on the Traffic allert signs put in place by the the Texas DOT (Department of Transportation) the message "Call Police and Report Shuttle Debre"

It was a really sad and strange day

May God give peace and comfort to the friends and family of those lost in this very sad accident.

I am now watching pre-recorded footage of talking to the crew before this accident. It is really very sad to watch them speak to us on earth and now they are gone.

God Bless us all..

My Prayers go out to all.

Fellowship

edit: I just watched the streaming video of the speech President Bush gave today hosted on the BBC website and watching the video brought me to tears.

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
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post #119 of 278
[quote]Originally posted by Chinney:
<strong>

Right on VanDeWalls! Enron, WorldCom, and United Air Lines come to mind as good examples. Maybe the talented and efficient executives, or former executives, of these corporations could be put in charge. Or perhaps NASA could be privatized and merge with AOL Time Warner.

Personally, I think that NASA has done an excellent job over the years in a very difficult and risky area. I think that it is crass and inaccurate to imply that this accident, or difficulties with space travel in general, are the product of a lack of private sector involvement.

And, incidentally, NASA does contract out a great deal of work to the private sector, although not always with good results - think O-Rings.

[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Chinney ]</strong><hr></blockquote>




I was in no way implying that lack of private sector involment killed these people. And your examples are hardly good ones...as none of these are aerospace companies.

Privatization is hardly a cure-all. Do we need NASA? Of course! We need it to direct and consolidate research in this field. I was simply offering an opinion in regards with how it might do this more efficiently. Please do not put words in my mouth.
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post #120 of 278
Number two in his class at the Naval Academy...
A doctor and a skilled pilot...
A doctor on a submarine...

Some of the very best of the human race. The vehicle was the product of some of the best of the human race. They are now lost to us.

It all goes to one's values, I suppose. If you understand and cherish the best within us, then you will feel an anguish beyond words. If you don't, then I guess that you will be left outside looking at us. Far easier too than conducting an internal examination as to why one doesn't feel complete anguish at the loss of all of this greatness.

The American space program is greatness. The people who make our space program go are great, are better than the majority of the people riding this ball around the sun.

Having expressed my admiration for NASA, privatization of space access (in parallel with NASA's efforts) would get us Out There faster than we have been going.

There are tons of money to be made throughout the solar system. 250 years ago, there were some fishing villages on the eastern seaboard of North America. Thanks to Capitalism, Look At Us Now. Because of Capitalism, 250 years from now, the wilderness whizing above our heads will be civilized.

Aries 1B
"I pictured myself sitting in the shade of a leafy tree in a public park, a stylus in hand, a shiny Apple Tablet computer in my lap, and a pouty Jennifer Connelly stirring a pitcher of gimlets a...
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"I pictured myself sitting in the shade of a leafy tree in a public park, a stylus in hand, a shiny Apple Tablet computer in my lap, and a pouty Jennifer Connelly stirring a pitcher of gimlets a...
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