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Athiests know there is a God - Page 3

post #81 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Christianity: putting the rose colored glasses on hate for two thousand years.

Perhaps you can explain how this is hatred. To me it looks like personal disagreement and the hatred and anger is actually on Tontons side.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #82 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Perhaps you can explain how this is hatred. To me it looks like personal disagreement and the hatred and anger is actually on Tontons side.

It seems that for some, disagreement is hatred (and stupidity or mental retardation)...and possibly racism (if the one disagreeing is white and the one being disagreed with is any other race.)

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #83 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is what e# is talking about, Fellowship.

I don't know if it is hate - it is just stupid on the pastors part (and the woman's part). Illegal abortions increase when you make abortion illegal, so the woman is campaigning to make her situation more common, she is just one of the many people in this world that are bad at math. She can't see side effects, she has a very simple mind.

However - I completely understand people that are anti-abortion, if the hand of god invests a soul in an egg at the moment of fertilization then abortion is murder. I don't accept the premise, because I don't think that there is such thing as a soul, but I see the logic (even though it isn't as simple as they make out, since there are a lot of downsides to making abortion illegal).
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post #84 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I don't know if it is hate - it is just stupid on the pastors part (and the woman's part). Illegal abortions increase when you make abortion illegal, so the woman is campaigning to make her situation more common, she is just one of the many people in this world that are bad at math. She can't see side effects, she has a very simple mind.

I think your assumption is probably accurate. From a logical standpoint, she's probably on the wrong footing. That said, this is not hate in any sense. She's taking what she sees as a moral stand. In this case, she's probably do better encouraging women not to have abortions instead of pushing for it to be illegal.

Quote:

However - I completely understand people that are anti-abortion, if the hand of god invests a soul in an egg at the moment of fertilization then abortion is murder. I don't accept the premise, because I don't think that there is such thing as a soul, but I see the logic (even though it isn't as simple as they make out, since there are a lot of downsides to making abortion illegal).

Many people believe life begins at conception, but also don't think abortion should be illegal. And some of us believe both of those while also thinking Roe was a bad decision. See my post on the last page.
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post #85 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

sammi, none of that addresses that teachings and "platform" of Christianity. None of it.

No, it surely doesn't!

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You mean politicians like....Barack Obama?

Uh huh. Just because he goes to church, that doesn't mean he's a Christian.. and he's not a Muslim either!

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I don't know what that means.

An example here. You gotta hand it to the religious right, when it comes to organizing skills.

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I think that he would condemn those who lie, cheat and steal. He would speak to the principle of of not being "run" by money as a person. I think He would also recognize that in this world, money is a tool and is necessary for fulfill human needs. He would not condemn someone just because he was wealthy.

I got nothing against wealth, provided its not ill-gotten. Money is a tool yes, and in an "meritocratic" world, money would be a reflection of human energy, value and output.

Hey... I should be rich!
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #86 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

I got nothing against wealth, provided its not ill-gotten. Money is a tool yes, and in an "meritocratic" world, money would be a reflection of human energy, value and output.

In a true free market your net worth/wealth/income would be a reflection of the energy/value/output you've provided to others who have voluntarily given you something they value less (according to their valuation) in exchange for something they value more (according to their valuation).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #87 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

In a true free market your net worth/wealth/income would be a reflection of the energy/value/output you've provided to others who have voluntarily given you something they value less (according to their valuation) in exchange for something they value more (according to their valuation).

You must have never been scammed by a skilled con artist, or had insider traders gut the value of one of your investments because they had more information than you. The free market is a free for all for scams.
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post #88 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

You must have never been scammed by a skilled con artist, or had insider traders gut the value of one of your investments because they had more information than you. The free market is a free for all for scams.

I've been scammed more and been robbed more by the State than I ever have been by private con artists. The difference of course is that some of my fellow citizens and neighbors are sometimes approving of it. The real con artists are in the government (directly and indirectly).

How would you suggest we achieve this meritocracy suggested by sammi jo?

P.S. You appear to assume that there is no possible free market mechanisms to deal with such issues.

P.P.S. You appear to imply that this con artistry would be the norm rather than the exception in a free market.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #89 of 98
Fellowship?

You may as well argue that Christians are all gay because they hate homosexuals.

Thread over.
post #90 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Fellowship?

You may as well argue that Christians are all gay because they hate homosexuals.

Thread over.

(Joking about the thread over thing.)

(Although Christians do, really, truly, hate homosexuals, all of them. )
post #91 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

In a true free market your net worth/wealth/income would be a reflection of the energy/value/output you've provided to others who have voluntarily given you something they value less (according to their valuation) in exchange for something they value more (according to their valuation).

Well, that goes to prove that a true free market is as impossible as the equality in society that Karl Marx dreamed about. In both cases, human nature screws it all up!

The material "winners" in our society tend to be the corruptest, and those most willing and able to screw even their grandmothers.

Scum always floats to the top.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #92 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Scum always floats to the top.

Yet so many people see nothing wrong with concentrating power at the top. Why is that?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #93 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Well, that goes to prove that a true free market is as impossible as the equality in society that Karl Marx dreamed about. In both cases, human nature screws it all up!

I agree that human nature is a problem. But it seems to me that it becomes more of a problem when some decide to give more "legitimate" power and control to some others over everyone. We call this government.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The material "winners" in our society tend to be the corruptest, and those most willing and able to screw even their grandmothers.

Scum always floats to the top.

Well, this is certainly just an opinion and one probably not really based in any reasonable facts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #94 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I agree that human nature is a problem. But it seems to me that it becomes more of a problem when some decide to give more "legitimate" power and control to some others over everyone. We call this government.

No, we call this "the church."
post #95 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No, we call this "the church."

Maybe yours. My church doesn't have power and control over me...but my governments most certainly do...and it seems to be expanding and growing almost daily.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #96 of 98
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Well said.



Also well said.



I wouldn't call him a "liberal" exactly. He's more of a progressive-socialist with dictatorial tendencies. He has a lot more in common with say, Marx, than he does true "liberals" of the past. Handing out corporate welfare doesn't make one a conservative. In fact, I'd argue that doing so is antithetical to conservative principles. This is one reason there is a lot of conservative opposition to TARP and other bailouts.



Eh..."compares well" doesn't mean "equivalent to."



That's your thought, and you're welcome to it. As she is welcome to hers.



There are many women (from what I've read) that have abortions that are not botched at all, yet they regret the decision. In fact, Norma McCorvey ("Jane Roe") is now a member of the pro-life movement. Who are you to tell them their time is better spent elsewhere?



Why, because she opposes abortion and thinks it is morally wrong? She has every right to make her case, whether or not people happen to agree. Liberals do this all the time. Liberals do this HERE. You know, tonton, it's my opinion that your time could be better spent going out and directly helping the poor rather than arguing that government should help more. See how this works?



How is that hatred? He believes that people who have abortions are taking a life. You don't. He's not professing hatred, he's decrying what he sees as the taking of life. That's not hatred. You simply can't stand that he has a different view. Gee, there's a surprise.



That's another trick liberal use...reframing and re-terming things. What you call "reproductive choice" is, in fact, taking a life. Right or wrong, that's what it is.



Most religious people (not just Christians) agree that God does not support this, and in fact condemns it.



Any hate you have seen is merely the reflection of the hatred you project. In fact, a mirror image is really the perfect metaphor. You condemn, say, Fellows for drawing different conclusions than you. You tell him he's ignorant, insinuate he cannot comprehend the complexity of the issue, and accuse him of intellectual laziness. And he's the one who's hateful?



Here, again, you show your complete intolerance of those with different views. The woman in the sermon was trying to communicate to others that she felt taking a life was wrong. She feels abortion should be illegal as a result. I don't agree with that, but she is certainly free to argue for what she feels is the right thing. Incidentally, how do you think others feel about your position? Millions of people believe that you are the one spewing hate. They view you as someone that argues for the taking of life, abortion as birth control, confiscatory tax rates, an opponent of religious expression and more. So who is the one who spews hatred?

*Just to clarify my own views here for second:

1) I believe strongly that life begins at conception.
2) I have serious problems with Roe v. Wade. It is was a poor decision...primarily because the USSC invented a Constitutional right where none existed.
3) Number 2 aside, I believe the primary responsibility for making the decision on whether or not to end that life lies with the mother...subject to certain limitations (length of pregnancy, for example).
4) Following up #3, I think states and localities should have ability to restrict or even prevent legal abortion under their powers under the 10th Amendment.
5) If abortion rights were on the ballot in my state, I would certainly vote to keep abortion legal.
6) Finally, I oppose taxpayer-funded abortion.

and on gay marriage:

I support civil unions, not gay marriage. Granted, we're basically down to the word marriage here...but that's important. Marriage is what it is. As I'm fond of saying.."words mean stuff."

SDW I really appreciate the quality of your contributions to these discussions.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #97 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

You must have never been scammed by a skilled con artist, or had insider traders gut the value of one of your investments because they had more information than you. The free market is a free for all for scams.

Let the buyer beware. What happened to that?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #98 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

SDW I really appreciate the quality of your contributions to these discussions.

Fellows

And I appreciate yours as well, Fellows. I'm off to Disney World with the fam is a few hours. Talk to you next week some time.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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