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Microsoft's preview of Windows 8 has developers 'horrified' - report - Page 2

post #41 of 85
Instead of courting developers with their opinions on how and what they would like to see as an evolution or even revolution from a developer's standpoint, MS went ahead, arrogantly as always, and finally decided to screw the pooch.

Good going MS. Glad I don't belong to that camp.
post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Steve B... your time to leave is near.

his time TO LEAVE was a long time ago, the time he will actually leave, i dunno.

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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post #43 of 85
IE 10 was one of the full screen applications they showed off which made use of metro and the immersive user experience.

What do these developers think that was written in? I doubt it was javascript.
post #44 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

I think Microsoft is lost in the seas of technology, they absolutely got no clue where to place their next big bet.

The legacy millstone is finally weighing them down it would appear. This is why I have never really cared whether Apple paid attention to the "enterprise". That market protects the status quo with all its might. Innovation is a dirty word when it comes to white box PCs sitting on desks in a cubicle farm, running in house software written by a junior college comp/sci graduate. But Microsoft must cow-tow to that market. It's their bread and butter. Windows and Office, period.
post #45 of 85
Just have Coach Ballmer run around the stage shouting "JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/JAVASCRIPT/HTML5/!!!!"

Problem solved.

Oh, wait. I got another one!
Windows 8 to be released in 2012. Mayan calendar says the world will end in 2012*. Coincidence? I think not!!!

* Yeah Yeah. I know this "End of the World" crap is nonsense... or, IS IT??? DUM-DUM-DUM!!!!
"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
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"Don't be a dick!"Wil Wheaton
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post #46 of 85
This story just seems ridiculous, it just defies common sense.

Can you write an app like Photoshop or Cubase in javascript or HTML5? Of course not.

Are they going to dump support for all existing windows apps? Of course not, which means there's no way to stop anyone from just continuing to use the old development tools.

Maybe js/html5 just for mobile apps, or for the part of apps that communicates with their tile interface, or just for little tiny widget type apps.

But there's no way in hell they're dumping a huge pile of powerful development tools and legacy code. Sure, there are modernizations that can be made and it's possible they could start gradually dropping support for things that are old and outdated but they're not going to completely immediately throw everything out, the idea would be pure insanity.

Looks like MS is just making a big communication blunder. Wait for the correction/backtrack any day now.
post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post



BOB for Tablet would be wonderful for Windows users ;-)

I think our dog, Rocky, could use BOB to select his treat every morning if:
1. some developer does a program with slideshow and touchscreen.
2. I let the dog drink 6-8 cups of coffee everyday so he hears voices.
post #48 of 85
Ars looves the FUD link bait
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post #49 of 85
I wish that more people would write paid programs for Linux. Sure I like free the most, but I'd love to have something easy and super capable in the movie editing area. IMovie is easy to use and very good. It doesn't work on Linux.

The same thing goes for image storage and manipulation. I don't like iPhoto too much but it is capable of some image editing. Aperture is probably better. I haven't bought it because I don't edit images that often.

I like the VLC movie player but it is buggy on all platforms and it doesn't have any instructions on how to use all the features. A cheap paid program might be much better for my needs than a free buggy program.

It would be great if all the Microsoft developers jumped ship and started working in Web OS and LInux. Perhaps enough of them will so that I'll get more of what I need in Linux programs.
post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

A potential Microsoft dev rebellion? I love it!

Mr. Ballmer will have to adopt a more plaintive tone when making his "developers, developers, developers, developers" chant.
post #51 of 85
If this rumor is true (and I seriously have my doubts) it would be great for us non-Windows users and bad for MS.

If Windows 8 apps are all based on HTML5 and JavaScript, then there's no need to run Windows at all. We can run those apps on Linux, on Mac OS, on iPhones, and countless other non-MS platforms.

Somehow I don't think even Ballmer would be that stupid.
post #52 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMacadvocate View Post

This is more about Microsoft being unable to articulate the way the touch layer and the "hardcore" OS layer are going to work together. Microsoft is nothing if not beholden to the needs of its legacy users and long-term developers.

This does underscore how poor a job they did explaining the "2 UI" identity of Windows 8 and how utterly focused they were about serving something up that responded to iOS.

I would argue instead that the flaw here is the tech press buying into the idea that Windows 8 will be a new OS that incorporates touch and runs on tablets.

None of this makes any sense unless you assume that the tiles and stuff is just a thin dashboard-y kind of layer and that the rest of Windows is staying more or less the same. If this is true, then the lie is only in maintaining that this is in fact a "touch operating system" when it's really just a widget layer on regular old Windows 7.

They seem to be attempting to simply go on as before with Windows software, keep all backward compatibility but yet *appear* to be moving forward. It's a total boondoggle.

I think we can expect that the only difference between "Windows 8" (the real part underneath the widgets), and Windows 7, will be that most of the obvious buttons will be made larger for fingers. They will also almost certainly attempt to do a new interface for Office along the same lines, although it's hard to see how that will really work, and it would seem to necessitate making far more changes than the dreaded "ribbon" introduced.

Worse, I don't see that Microsoft's actual customers (the businesses), even *want* this.

Microsoft is trying to change everything about Windows and Office, without actually changing anything about Windows and Office, because of course their customers don't really want them to change anything about Windows and Office.

They are screwed. If they fail, they fail, if they succeed, they fail.

I'm thinking they are going to fail.
post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The prospect of writing software for "Windows 8" in HTML5 and JavaScript has reportedly "horrified" Microsoft's development community, which is anxiously awaiting more information.

Author Peter Bright noted that Windows developers have invested "a lot of time, effort and money into the platform," learning to program in Win32, COM, Visual Basic 6, .NET, Silverlight and WPF, just to name a few.

It can replace the UI layers and I wouldn't say it's a bad thing. There's absolutely no point at this stage in building apps that depend on a browser plugin because you have to rely on a certain market penetration with the plugin and it just won't be there unless it's forced on people e.g with Youtube. You can't afford to ignore the mobile platform any more either and the plugin route just doesn't work (kudos to Adobe for letting everyone know this).

Silverlight should never have been made but it does offer some things that HTML 5 doesn't like DRM video streaming and Direct3D rendering so it won't be fully replaced but it will be put in its place. That place is not as a development platform but as an accessory to HTML 5 to provide functionality it doesn't yet offer. They are doing this the right way, Adobe are going about it the wrong way and Microsoft are going to steal the market that Flash/Flex holds unless they stop their stubbornness.

Adobe need to embrace HTML 5 and scale Flash way back to a very small, lean plugin that only tackles specialised functionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"Such a switch means discarding two decades of knowledge and expertise of Windows development -- and countless hours spent learning Microsoft's latest-and-greatest technology -- and perhaps just as importantly, it means discarding rich, capable frameworks and the powerful, enormously popular Visual Studio development environment, in favor of a far more primitive, rudimentary system with substantially inferior tools."

It doesn't really, we've all seen what Palm were capable of regarding development with HTML UIs:

https://developer.palm.com/content/index.php?id=5802

Their UI builder was pretty cool running right in a browser:

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/N...rnings-report/

This Windows 8 issue is being blown way out of proportion. Microsoft have had the biggest wake-up call over the past couple of years and they're doing something about it and thankfully trying to fix some of their mistakes. Developers aren't going to like having to relearn things but it's their own fault for not figuring out where things were going in the first place.

It doesn't mean an end to DirectX or C++ coding or whatever, it's just a better standardised UI layer that can be integrated with the web. Hopefully they won't abuse it to push development of websites that only run on Windows.

One thing that's very clear from the Windows 8 demo when you see the new view next to the standard apps is how bad conventional UIs really are and why they need to be overhauled. The desktop paradigm is all wrong. Why do we even need a desktop? It's just breathing space between where you are and where you want to be and just like any spare cupboard you have, you tend to fill it full of junk. When OS manufacturers give you a tidier place for the junk, you don't need the spare cupboard. Just get straight to the apps.

I'm not a fan of the tile view because it assigns importance based on colour and size of the tiles and I wouldn't feel the same way about that importance every day. Apps are only as important as the one I need at any given time - same goes for max/min/close buttons. But anyway, I think both Apple and Microsoft are making good moves evolving the desktop OS with mobile platforms in mind. Some changes might be painful but I think we're all going to like where we end up.
post #54 of 85
I still maintain MS has done so much damage to businesses (in this case developers) with their slip-shod approach to OS development. This, if true, is just another example! I feel sorry for the developers and anyone that has to use Windows! Ugh!
post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmillermcp View Post

.NET is decades old and Java is somehow new? Things that have become quite trivial thanks to .NET would be a nightmare to code in Java.

Well, I respectfully disagree. Starting with writing code that has to work on something other than Windows. Also, .Net is quite an umbrella? Which language, for example? And God help if you actually have a single project implemented in the multiple languages.

Knowing Java, C/C++ and C#, I'll pick Java every time.
post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

If what you are saying is true though (that Windows 8 is just an HTML 5 'dashboard' tacked onto Windows 7), then everything they have been saying is a lie and the platform will fail anyway.

Microsoft either has to come up with a modern platform for mobile devices or go away and die.
Either way, this isn't it.

If they were smart, they'd have had a team making an iOS version of Word, Excel, etc. in 2008 and be ready to port it to their own new platform which they started building in 2009. They are already years and years behind and not even trying that hard to catch up.

Exactly!

It's particularly telling, and must be galling to MicroSoft, that there are over 100 million iOS devices capable of running Microsoft Office Mobile apps -- if there were such a thing.

Lets see... $10 each x 3 apps x 100,000,000... Why, golly Martha -- someone could make a little money on this!


Paraphrasing "Boss" Tweed: "We seen our opportunities -- and we ignored 'em."
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post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
The company also clarified that it has not officially revealed a name for the next-generation version of Windows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Oh, let me guess... Windows 8

Oh, I don't know... based on the announce-delivery cycle, LongHorn Mobile might be more appropriate.
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post #58 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeNsteinNo View Post

Make it simple, just do a new Windows BOB OS so one size fits all.

Surely you jest.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

Mr. Ballmer will have to adopt a more plaintive tone when making his "developers, developers, developers, developers" chant.

The Silverlight Developers Group can meet up at the next MIX conference and cry on each others shoulders.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #60 of 85
I'm sorry, I must have stumbled upon WindowsInsider by accident. I was looking for AppleInsider. Anyone seen it?
post #61 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135 View Post

I'm sorry, I must have stumbled upon WindowsInsider by accident. I was looking for AppleInsider. Anyone seen it?

One story and you get all uppity? This is about Mac development as much as it is about Windows.

There's going to be a massive migration. To OS X. Unless Microsoft gets it together. They tend not to.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #62 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


There's going to be a massive migration. To OS X. Unless Microsoft gets it together. They tend not to.

Uhhh...no. While Apple has certainly made amazing inroads and more and more business execs desire to use Pads, the fact remains that in most of large corporate America, there are Dells or Lenovo's sitting on most desks. And there are tons of proprietary and vertical market business applications that were developed in .NET and C# (or other languages and platforms) and in many cases, because of the use of plug-in development tools (such as Infragistics), don't even run on Safari. And while that will evolve over time, OS X (or iOS) is not a replacement because the resulting apps won't run on those machines.

I think that programmers who wanted to learn OS X or iOS already have. And at least insofar as developing for iOS devices is concerned, there doesn't seem to be enough of them, at least that's been my company's experience. Among our .NET/C# staff, which is most of our engineers, I don't really sense any urgency on their part to learn the skills required to migrate.
post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

None of this makes any sense unless you assume that the tiles and stuff is just a thin dashboard-y kind of layer and that the rest of Windows is staying more or less the same. If this is true, then the lie is only in maintaining that this is in fact a "touch operating system" when it's really just a widget layer on regular old Windows 7.

I still think they will offer an ARM version with nothing but the thin light weight touch based shell. Backwards comparability doesn't make as much sense on an ARM processor that can't run any legacy code anyway.

In any case how they do it isn't as important as the results.

Things like "is it responsive?", "is the battery and standby life respectable?", "does it run on low powered hardware?" and "are the memory and storage requirements comparable to current media tablets?" are more important than the underlying technology... and if the resutls fail to meet expectations then the market will judge it accordingly.
post #64 of 85
Corporate IT groups are locked in because they've spent millions training generations of admins to diagnose and re-image pee cees with their custom Windows setups. Too expensive to switch. Not even to a brand-new Microsoft OS.

Users are locked in because they've spent weeks learning all the oddball features of Office that they might never use anyway. Is there really a need to upgrade? And learn all the new weird ribbon interfaces and drill-down paths to yet more checklist features? Nope.

Developers are locked in, because Microsoft couldn't be bothered to evolve Windows or its development environment to handle mobile devices. Not evolving a platform (e.g. Windows Mobile 6.x) condemns it to quickly reach the end of its useful life span and drop dead. To be replaced by a new, totally incompatible platform (e.g. Windows Phone 7.)

Unless there is a backlash against the new OS. Like what happened with Vista.
And, of course, if that backlash succeeds, Microsoft will have no choice but to stay locked in to the past.
Forever looking back to its glory days, the mid-1990s, with misty eyes.

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post #65 of 85
I feel bad for MS. They are stuck in their quagmire of legacy code and so they decide to try something new. And then their developers complain, loudly. Seems they can't win. Seems to me what MS is proposing is a good thing. A clean break from their dirty past. If it will work. Maybe their developers need to do what the kids on the Halo Reach forums always say: Adapt.

I'm not a coder, but can you really base an entire OS on Java and HTML5?
post #66 of 85
I haven't read through all the comments but the idea that developers will have to revert to Javascript and HTML5 is ridiculous. Microsoft's ASP.NET have controls that automatically code the javascript for you. You have events and parameters to fill at design time but at runtime it is javascript and HTML that are used to the presentation.

The same will be done for Windows 8. The developer will have the same controls they have always had plus new ones for the Windows 8 themes. They will not have to write javascript or HTML5 but they can if they want to look under the hood (well maybe has MS hasn't commented yet).

Don't worry ... be happy!
post #67 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

I feel bad for MS. They are stuck in their quagmire of legacy code and so they decide to try something new. And then their developers complain, loudly.

they should be happy. I mean it could be worse.

They could be herpes

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #68 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

they should be happy. I mean it could be worse.

They could be herpes

Hmm, Rim and Herpes together again at last.
post #69 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

...

I'm not a coder, but can you really base an entire OS on Java and HTML5?

Tthis is not the first time that Microsoft made a big thing about using a browser interface to navigate Windows. If memory serves, this was first done with Windows 98. However, the user base never adapted. The web browser is a good paradigm for navigating content. It is a poor paradigm for navigating files, directories, and volumes. Also, it is one thing to incorporate JavaScript into a website and to write animations using HTML5. However, the notion of replacing standalone binary applications with JavaScript and HTML5 boggles the mind. Will Windows users require 3.5 GHz Xeon clusters to get decent performance out of WordPad?

This does not sound like Microsoft jumped the shark. This sounds like Microsoft tried to jump the shark and didn't make it!
post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

No, HTML takes weeks to master. Javascript takes a few more months. Being able to design a nice web page with it is another story.

Everyone thinks they know more than they actually do. HTML does not take weeks to master. I know great programmers in other languages who deal with HTML every day and still can't master it. Mastering means more than throwing some HTML on a page. You have to have an intimate understanding of each browser in order work out browser quirks and tailor the experience for each browser etc. Javascript is a lot harder than most people give it credit for....these .NET programmers and Java programmers should try writing some programs in strait up javascript OOP style. Java, VB and .NET provides easy environments to write code in. You drop a button on the screen and then write some code to attach to it with relative ease. Now Objective-C/C/C++ on the other hand... those are much more complex languages than Javascript but .NET provide frameworks and gui buttons to write code with etc...that Javascript doesn't have.
post #71 of 85
This article reads almost like an Onion article
post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Oh, let me guess... Windows 8

Maybe Tiles 1.0, since it is not really mouse and windows any more.

C# is quite a nice programming language, they just need the .NET runtime to be a bit more efficient, and to add some nice Touch UI classes, and they will be set.

Even if they really are serious about HTML5/JS being the only way to do Tile apps, they will surely have their own extra namespace and tags in the HTML files, e.g. <ms:control type="button"/>.
post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post

Tthis is not the first time that Microsoft made a big thing about using a browser interface to navigate Windows. If memory serves, this was first done with Windows 98. However, the user base never adapted. The web browser is a good paradigm for navigating content. It is a poor paradigm for navigating files, directories, and volumes. Also, it is one thing to incorporate JavaScript into a website and to write animations using HTML5. However, the notion of replacing standalone binary applications with JavaScript and HTML5 boggles the mind. Will Windows users require 3.5 GHz Xeon clusters to get decent performance out of WordPad?

This does not sound like Microsoft jumped the shark. This sounds like Microsoft tried to jump the shark and didn't make it!

I'm just going to disagree with this outright because this has not been proven. HTML5 is in constant beta and may become great for file management if it isn't already. For most people they don't need to do that much file management. Everyone does not need the most powerful computer and managing files on their machine in the same way you would if you had a traditional OS. Most computers are way more powerful than what is needed for 90% of the people.
post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

I'm just going to disagree with this outright because this has not been proven. HTML5 is in constant beta and may become great for file management if it isn't already. For most people they don't need to do that much file management. Everyone does not need the most powerful computer and managing files on their machine in the same way you would if you had a traditional OS. Most computers are way more powerful than what is needed for 90% of the people.

And I'm going to go ahead and agree with you, although I would drop that over-enthusiastic 90% to a realistic 80%.

If... and only IF.... MS can get something out of their labs that welds mobile devices to their enterprise machines and core software (Office), they'll be OK.

However in the mean time, I personally think they should be developing Office for iOS; and going off a limb here, but also for Android and RIM, and make sure that what ever they do with Windows 8, it works first before betting the farm on it. Then if it does, it allows users on other platforms a smooth transition back to Windows 8 (if they want to that is). If Win8 takes some more time, then so be it. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, my Dad would say. In this instance, leverage the work done by your competitors, and possibly, steal some steam for yourself.

MS is a software house, and if their own system software blows, and they have no fallback... they're in big trouble going forward. Enterprise services and integration only. A similar position IBM is in today. How ironic. While not necessarily bad, it is a downer for them.
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

AI: The company also clarified that it has not officially revealed a name for the next-generation version of Windows

Oh, let me guess... Windows 8

What takes you to this conclusion ? Let's have a look at the lineup :

Windows 3.1
Windows 95
Windows Millenium
Windows NT
Windows 2000
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7


Chances are about even it would be called Windows 8 or Windows Linux.
post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsburnred View Post

Good that Microsoft for seeking to simplify Windows 8, but I'm sorry. Desktops and laptops are dead. After I get my iPad 2 I dont think i'll ever need to use a "full" computer ever again.

Hell im even on Ubuntu at the moment .

Your right, desktops and laptops are certainly dead. It's obvious how people working in telesales, customer services, publishing, HR, accountants, newspapers, authors, finance, development, architecture etc would be so much better using a 10 inch tablet on their desk at work rather than 2 monitors, keybord and mouse.

</sarcasm>
post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Emperor View Post

Knowing Java, C/C++ and C#, I'll pick Java every time.

There are definitely times when C++ would be the sensible pick over java, but that's a big discussion.
post #78 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

JavaSCRIPT, not Java. ... We wouldn't have the rich application-like experience on the web that we do today without javascript (though, we wouldn't have quite nearly the level of security problems without it as well).

That brings up my reaction, which was - if Win8 is built on a skeleton of javascript, doesn't that make it a security nightmare? My favorite Firefox add-on is a scriptblocker; it's been amazing (and scary) to see the number sites that have umpteen unnecessary .js applications running in the background, doing goddess-knows-what.
post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by webmail View Post

This isn't a joke, but the developer who was used to comment on Windows 8 obviously is

The dashboard is based on html5/css3 which is SHOULD BE, that doesn't mean you write your application in HTML 5, it just means if you want a front end that shows on the dashboard tiles you write it with HTML 5, which is a good thing.

You can't tell me you know how to write C++ but can't write HTML5, it's too easy.

>> I'm pretty sure this is going to be an "additional development" environment.

Much like iAd and the multimedia features of iTunes use HTML5 and Javascript to create interactive magazines.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be a useful addition -- not a replacement. And it merely sets a standard for using "web standards" to make interactive content or apps WITHOUT coding -- which is pretty much like a lot of Widgets on the Mac that don't require any real code.

Microsoft will probably do a much better job of documenting it than Apple did.

... On the other hand, I'm also guessing they will be "re-inventing" a lot, and the HTML 5 won't be an HTML 5 that plays well with anything else, and they will create an "emulation layer" depending on future hardware to be faster than it is now (which makes their OEM customers happy).

Developers will NOT be screwed -- as this is Microsoft's bread and butter.

Sounds like FUD is now working against Microsoft the way it's been for Apple, though.
post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

What takes you to this conclusion ? Let's have a look at the lineup :

Windows 3.1
Windows 95
Windows Millenium
Windows NT
Windows 2000
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7

Chances are about even it would be called Windows 8 or Windows Linux.

Well, let's think about the current trends and marketing hype that MS marketing is sure to latch onto -- about these names;
Windows HD
Windows 3D
Windows OPEN
Windows Web
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