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Apple: Samsung 'attempts to harass' with requests to see next-gen iPhone, iPad

post #1 of 53
Thread Starter 
Apple has called out its key supplier and major rival, Samsung, in court, characterizing the company's requests to see Apple's next-generation iPhone and iPad as "attempts to harass" that were not made in good faith.

The latest twist in the ongoing legal battle between Apple and Samsung was unearthed Tuesday by Florian Mueller of FOSS Patents. In addition to accusing Samsung of resorting to harassment, Apple also refers to its rival as "the copyist" in the newest documents.

The latest filing by Apple was made in response to a motion filed by Samsung in late May, in which the device maker said it wanted advance copies of the "final, commercial versions" of Apple's unannounced next-generation iPhone and iPad. That motion came with a deadline of June 13, 2011, and Apple responded accordingly last Friday to deny the request.

The battle started in April, when Apple sued Samsung and accused the company of copying the look and feel of the iPhone and iPad. Apple has asserted that Samsung's products, including its Galaxy-branded smartphone and tablet products, copy the "technology, user interface and innovative style" seen in the iPhone and iPad.

A U.S. Federal Court judge in San Jose, Calif., later ordered Samsung to show prototype samples of its unreleased tablets and smartphones to Apple. The move came in response to a motion by Apple for expedited discovery, seeking early production of documents and witnesses in the case.

That prompted Samsung to respond in-kind, and ask to see Apple's next-generation products. But Apple, in its latest filing, has asserted that Samsung doesn't have a need to see the next-generation iPhone and iPad, because Apple is not accused of copying Samsung's products.

Apple also reportedly noted that the products it requested to see -- including a Samsung Galaxy S II -- have already been announced. In contrast, Apple's products are shrouded in secrecy until they are publicly announced.



Richard J. Lutton, chief patent counsel for Apple, said in one filing that "Apple is widely recognized as one of the most secretive companies in the world." He also stated that "Apple's new product announcements are major events in the technology industry," in an effort to draw a distinction between Samsung's products and Apple's.

"I agree with Apple that Samsung's requests go way beyond what Apple asked for," Mueller offered in his analysis of the latest filings. "I also have a feeling that the court is not going to grant Samsung's requests -- there doesn't seem to be sufficient cause. But at this stage let's not speculate too much."

Samsung's request for expedited discovery will be the topic in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California this Friday. On that same day, Samsung is due to deliver the five products requested by Apple for review.
post #2 of 53
Florian Mueller is an MS plant.

While I think Samsung deserves this lawsuit, I fail to see how their request is harassment. Apple asked for their prototypes. Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access to potentially be able to counter-sue (whether they have a case or not) or build a defense.

Another option could be to send all prototypes to a court-appointed expert with questions from the respective parties to answer.
post #3 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Apple asked for their prototypes.

Of devices that had been announced and therefore exist in the public eye.

Quote:
Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access

To devices that have not been announced and don't exist?

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post #4 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Florian Mueller is an MS plant.

While I think Samsung deserves this lawsuit, I fail to see how their request is harassment. Apple asked for their prototypes. Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access to potentially be able to counter-sue (whether they have a case or not) or build a defense.

Another option could be to send all prototypes to a court-appointed expert with questions from the respective parties to answer.

Apple's kit is not relevant to the suit at hand.
post #5 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Apple's kit is not relevant to the suit at hand.

Agreed.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #6 of 53
I'll show you mine, if you show me yours
post #7 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Florian Mueller is an MS plant.

While I think Samsung deserves this lawsuit, I fail to see how their request is harassment. Apple asked for their prototypes. Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access to potentially be able to counter-sue (whether they have a case or not) or build a defense.

Another option could be to send all prototypes to a court-appointed expert with questions from the respective parties to answer.

That would simply be crazy. Apple requested early prototypes of announced devices and more importantly, Samsung is not accusing Apple of copying the Galaxy-S series of products.
post #8 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

I fail to see how their request is harassment. Apple asked for their prototypes. Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access to potentially be able to counter-sue

No, it doesn't work that way. If Samsung decides to sue Apple for copying their products, THEN they may get to see such evidence in the discovery process. In Apple's current suit, Samsung almost certainly has no right to such discovery (unless the court allows them to go on a fishing expedition, which seems unlikely).

Of course, there's the irony of Samsung copying Apple's lawsuit, same way they're now copying Apple's evidentiary demands. Too bad irony in and of itself isn't proof of anything, or Apple might have made their case on that alone.
post #9 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by iandean View Post

I'll show you mine, if you show me yours

reminds me what two 10 year olds would do behind the garage....
post #10 of 53
It isn't fair. Apple is suing Samsung alleging Samsung current products and already announced products are copying Apple on a variety of grounds. Apple requesting to see the pro-types of the already announced products that are not yet shipping are relevant to Apple's Motion for Summary Judgement. Apple doesn't get to see Samsung's product personally. It's outside counsel does.

Apple's next generation products are not shipping nor were they announced. Further, Samsung is not suing Apple based on copying Samsung's look and feel. So, seeing Apple's products are not relevant to Samsung's counterclaim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Florian Mueller is an MS plant.

While I think Samsung deserves this lawsuit, I fail to see how their request is harassment. Apple asked for their prototypes. Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access to potentially be able to counter-sue (whether they have a case or not) or build a defense.

Another option could be to send all prototypes to a court-appointed expert with questions from the respective parties to answer.
post #11 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

It isn't fair. Apple is suing Samsung alleging Samsung current products and already announced products are copying Apple on a variety of grounds. Apple requesting to see the pro-types of the already announced products that are not yet shipping are relevant to Apple's Motion for Summary Judgement. Apple doesn't get to see Samsung's product personally. It's outside counsel does.

Apple's next generation products are not shipping nor were they announced. Further, Samsung is not suing Apple based on copying Samsung's look and feel. So, seeing Apple's products are not relevant to Samsung's counterclaim.

Well explained. One has to assume a judge will see this the same way.

I hope Apple soon find alternate sources for all parts they currently obtain from Samsung.
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post #12 of 53
You see Samsung is afraid that Apple might copy the Samsung designs that Samsung copied from Apple.
post #13 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Florian Mueller is an MS plant.

While I think Samsung deserves this lawsuit, I fail to see how their request is harassment. Apple asked for their prototypes. Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access to potentially be able to counter-sue (whether they have a case or not) or build a defense.

Another option could be to send all prototypes to a court-appointed expert with questions from the respective parties to answer.

You don't understand the law at all do you?
post #14 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I hope Apple soon find alternate sources for all parts they currently obtain from Samsung.

Apple will continue to deal with Samsung as a supplier because they're too important as a supplier of Flash and LCD. Samsung is a massive conglomerate, not a tightly coupled firm like Apple.
post #15 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Florian Mueller is an MS plant.

While I think Samsung deserves this lawsuit, I fail to see how their request is harassment. Apple asked for their prototypes. Seems fair to me, that Samsung get the same access to potentially be able to counter-sue (whether they have a case or not) or build a defense.

Another option could be to send all prototypes to a court-appointed expert with questions from the respective parties to answer.

You can't really sue someone for making a prototype that has never been seen publicly. You also can't ask the courts to expedite your industrial espionage. Samsung's request is absurd. Every piece of hardware Apple has publicly announced is available in the Apple store...
post #16 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Florian Mueller is an MS plant.

While I think Samsung deserves this lawsuit, I fail to see how their request is harassment.

Because it is not relevant to the case they filed.

Apple filed a trade dress case. That directly relates to the look of the device and the UI. They contend that Samsung has and continues to knowingly and purposefully copy the iphone etc. They requested their lawyers have access to the devices that have no yet released to prove the 'continues' part of the argument and to see if Samsung may have used any insider knowledge as a component source to copy unrevealed details of the upcoming iOS5 or iphone5 hardware.

Samsung on the other hand filed a patent case. THey are accusing Apple of using patented tech without permission. Software tech, not hardware. All they should be asking for and allowed to see is a release or as near to release as it is copy of iOS5. Not to mention being beyond ballsy asking to see the ipad 3 (as if Apple has it all finished and sitting in a vault somewhere). Samsung is hoping that their "it's only fair" argument will get the judge to cancel the grant to Apple. But it likely won't. And even if it does, Apple will ask for a stay to continue the case when Samsung has released said products (or at least any photographic marketing on it) so they can be included in the case and the judge will likely grant that.

Samsung is real lucky that they are at the moment Apple's only real choice for some of the iOS device parts. If and when Apple has another choice, even if they win this case, they will probably jump ship without a second thought. Rumor has it they are already moving that way with partial orders to see the quality the other guys can produce for them.

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post #17 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

You see Samsung is afraid that Apple might copy the Samsung designs that Samsung copied from Apple.

best post ever

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #18 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Apple will continue to deal with Samsung as a supplier because they're too important as a supplier of Flash and LCD. Samsung is a massive conglomerate, not a tightly coupled firm like Apple.

Apple isn't coupled; it's the singular will of Steve Jobs, in material form.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #19 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Apple isn't coupled; it's the singular will of Steve Jobs, in material form.

That is a double edged sword.

Its both a pro and a con.

With Steve's health deteriorating all the time, its reflected in the stock price. Steve has too much control.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #20 of 53
If Apple flatly denies the existence of a iPhone 5 or an iPad 3, and then later release them, they will be accused of perjury.

Apple sued Samsung for trade dress infringement on CURRENT products but also requesting to see potential trade dress infringement on its future products that have yet to be released in the US market.

Samsung counter sued Apple for violating its technology patents in 10 countries for the CURRENT iPhone and iPad products but is also requesting to see potential technology patents in its future products that have yet to be released in the US market.

Both are same types of suits.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #21 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

If Apple flatly denies the existence of a iPhone 5 or an iPad 3, and then later release them, they will be accused of perjury.

That's doubtful.

Quote:
future products that have yet to be released in the US market.

That Samsung has announced. Apple hasn't announced either. They don't exist.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #22 of 53
How fast do you think Jobs and Co. are working on finding a new screen supplier? Those of us that have followed Apple for years know that the company never forgets and often exacts some type of revenge for those who cross the line.
post #23 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerARSgm View Post

How fast do you think Jobs and Co. are working on finding a new screen supplier? Those of us that have followed Apple for years know that the company never forgets and often exacts some type of revenge for those who cross the line.

It's not really revenge, just the consequences of their actions. If more people thought like Jobs about this topic, the world would be a far better place. Without consequences to one's actions there isn't much point in having any kind of rules or laws at all. Without laws, civilisation collapses.

Revenge would be attacking Samsung and making it suffer to the same degree that Apple thought that it suffered itself. Making a contract with a different company because the first company treats you poorly is just natural consequences (if it happens at all).
post #24 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

If Apple flatly denies the existence of a iPhone 5 or an iPad 3, and then later release them, they will be accused of perjury.

Apple sued Samsung for trade dress infringement on CURRENT products but also requesting to see potential trade dress infringement on its future products that have yet to be released in the US market.

Samsung counter sued Apple for violating its technology patents in 10 countries for the CURRENT iPhone and iPad products but is also requesting to see potential technology patents in its future products that have yet to be released in the US market.

Both are same types of suits.

Not even close.
post #25 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

No, it doesn't work that way. If Samsung decides to sue Apple for copying their products, THEN they may get to see such evidence in the discovery process. In Apple's current suit, Samsung almost certainly has no right to such discovery (unless the court allows them to go on a fishing expedition, which seems unlikely).

Not even then. A major factor in the judge's decision is that Samsung had already released the items in question to selected partners. That amounts to public disclosure - since the products were already in the public domain, Samsung could no longer claim that they were confidential.

Apple's prototypes, OTOH, have not left Apple or are covered by NDA. Samsung has no grounds to get them.
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post #26 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerARSgm View Post

How fast do you think Jobs and Co. are working on finding a new screen supplier? Those of us that have followed Apple for years know that the company never forgets and often exacts some type of revenge for those who cross the line.

You could be right, although Cook (or another top Aple exec) has said that it's only the mobile division of Samsung that has "crossd the line", and that Apple has good relations with the rest of Samsung.
post #27 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

That is a double edged sword.

Its both a pro and a con.

With Steve's health deteriorating all the time,

Citation? He looks about the same as he did last year.

Quote:
its reflected in the stock price.

Yes, Apple's stock price down explains why Apple is the third largest company in the world, by market capitalization.

Quote:
Steve has too much control.

Apple did fine when Steve was out getting treatment.
post #28 of 53
here

is anyone else amazed? why don't they just continue with that design instead of acting like they are the most valuable company in the world, and that the law will bend to them (in the US, in Korea, it might lol)

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post #29 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That Samsung has announced. Apple hasn't announced either. They don't exist.

What exactly that "announced" mean ? Is this a legal term ? I doubt it. Both companies might have prototypes that might be evidence in a case that is filled against them. It makes no difference, if you announce something or not.

Do you think if I announce that I will land on Mars next month court could ask me for engine of my rocket and samples of the ore I will eventually take back ? Doubt that.
post #30 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

Do you think if I announce that I will land on Mars next month court could ask me for engine of my rocket and samples of the ore I will eventually take back ? Doubt that.

No. But they might ask you to have a psychiatric/competency hearing. Lol

J/k
post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

You see Samsung is afraid that Apple might copy the Samsung designs that Samsung copied from Apple.

I hope you are being sarcastic

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post #32 of 53
Apple's suit could have merit. Samsung aka "the copyist" made some very iPhone-like smartphones. Even more iPhone-like than all the other iPhone-wannabes.

On the other hand, Samsung's suit is just saving face. Plain and simple. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense (e.g. Nokia vs. Apple) but Samsung's case is illogical and frivolous.

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post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

What exactly that "announced" mean ? Is this a legal term ? I doubt it. Both companies might have prototypes that might be evidence in a case that is filled against them. It makes no difference, if you announce something or not.

Do you think if I announce that I will land on Mars next month court could ask me for engine of my rocket and samples of the ore I will eventually take back ? Doubt that.

Your nonsensical analogy notwithstanding, Apple is the plaintiff in this suit and has not had a case "filed against them." There is no legal principle that holds "turn about if fair play", and if I accuse someone of stealing from me it doesn't directly follow that it's right and reasonable that the accuse me of the same.

Trolls are tedious.
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post #34 of 53
How about discussing why Apple chose to sue Samsung.
Commercially is it because Apple do not manufacturer anything themselves and Samsung make superior stuff?

If Samsung stuff was rubbish would this airy fairy court case see the time of day?
No doubt I'll be accused of being troll for 'having my own mind'.
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post

How about discussing why Apple chose to sue Samsung.
Commercially is it because Apple do not manufacturer anything themselves and Samsung make superior stuff?

If Samsung stuff was rubbish would this airy fairy court case see the time of day?
No doubt I'll be accused of being troll for 'having my own mind'.

No, you'll be accused of being a troll for spouting ignorant bullshit very obviously calibrated to provoke.
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post #36 of 53
I've followed these forums for quite a few years and thankfully its not always so narrow of thought.

It's obvious that the market place is now a 'whole new ball game' and commercial tactics have certainly changed.
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

What exactly that "announced" mean ? Is this a legal term ? I doubt it. Both companies might have prototypes that might be evidence in a case that is filled against them. It makes no difference, if you announce something or not.

Samsung did more than 'announce' the product. They showed the finished product and distributed it to various people. That means that it's in the public domain and no longer protectable as a trade secret.

Not to mention, of course, that there is also the matter that it's APPLE's lawsuit and Apple can request the samples. Samsung does not have any standing to do so. "Apple used patented technology" (even if it were true) is not a defense against the charges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

Do you think if I announce that I will land on Mars next month court could ask me for engine of my rocket and samples of the ore I will eventually take back ? Doubt that.

Sure. If you have used patented and proprietary technologies to do that, have released sample engines to various reviewers, and then get sued for intellectual property theft, then the person suing you could do exactly that.
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post #38 of 53
EDIT:

Didn't read carefully. Apple asked for their prototypes. It's a reasonable request.
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

What exactly that "announced" mean ?

The products are public knowledge and therefore aren't bound by rules of corporate secrecy.

Quote:
It makes no difference, if you announce something or not.

We think you're making something. You have to give us access to absolutely everything you're doing to make sure you're not making it.

Yeah, that works out well...

Quote:
Do you think if I announce that I will land on Mars next month court could ask me for engine of my rocket and samples of the ore I will eventually take back ? Doubt that.

Terrible analogy.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #40 of 53
I would expect that at least pre-production examples of iPhone 5 with reasonably stable build of iOS 5 are being tested in wild, announced or not. After all, it should be released in less than 3 months - surely Apple has working units by now?

Announced or not, I don't see that too important. Why should it be easier for secretive company than for one that openly announces new products?

Additionally... I cannot see what else but iPhone 5 and iOS 5 can Samsung ask for. Since iPad 2 just came out, it is unlikely iPad 3 project is already advanced to final form, specs wise.

A lot of smugness here (as usual), but I'd expect Samsung lawyers know a bit about law and have at least some base for such request. Not unlike Nokia. I'm pretty sure number of people here were LOLing when Nokia started their case versus Apple...
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