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Facebook looking to circumvent Apple's App Store with HTML5 platform

post #1 of 133
6/15/11 at 8:52pm
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A new report claims social network Facebook is partnering with roughly 80 developers on a secretive "Project Spartan" HTML5-based application platform that would circumvent Apple's App Store on iOS devices.

TechCrunch's MG Siegler reports Facebook is coordinating the effort in order to maintain control over web apps without having to submit to the App Store terms. According to people familiar with the project, Facebook hopes "to use Apples own devices against them to break the stranglehold they have on mobile app distribution."

Interestingly enough, Apple initially pushed the concept of web apps for mobile Safari on the iPhone, but eventually switched to the App Store model in 2008.

Siegler, who claims to have seen the project with his own eyes, describes "Project Spartan" as a mobile web version of Facebook with drop-down menus for new apps. Once loaded, those apps would be surrounded by a "Facebook wrapper" that would integrate with the social network, adding features such as Credits, the company's micropayment system.

Credits play a vital role in the in-development platform, as they would provide an alternative method for monetization to the App Store. Facebook is reportedly wooing third-party developer Zynga to the platform in hopes of accelerating the transition away from Adobe Flash and toward HTML5.

Though the project will serve to reduce developer reliance on Adobe Flash for gaming, "the real goal is to get people using Facebook as the distribution model for games and other apps, not the App Store (or any other distribution hub)," Siegler wrote.

Facebook began offering an app for the iPhone and iPod touch when the App Store launched, but has yet to release a native iPad app.



Apple and Facebook have cooperated in the past, but last year, Apple CEO Steve Jobs revealed that he was unable to agree upon a deal to tie the company's Ping music-centered social network into Facebook because of "onerous terms." According to one person familiar with the matter, the two companies were in talks for 18 months before negotiations broke down.

Last October, reports emerged that Jobs had invited Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg over for dinner to discuss the matter.

Some analysts view Apple's recent partnership with Twitter to provide system-wide integration in iOS 5 as a snub to Facebook. In April, a purported early "test version" of iOS 4 was spotted with system-level Facebook integration, fueling speculation that Facebook may have been Apple's "first choice" over Twitter.
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post #2 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:08pm
Do HTML5 webapps respond to iOS push notifications? I was under the impression that they do not, however it would be great if someone more knowledgeable than me about such matters clarify this topic.
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post #3 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:16pm
"Facebook hopes "to use Apples own devices against them to break the stranglehold they have on mobile app distribution."

Apple failed (relatively speaking, anyway) with Ping because they stepped well beyond their realm of expertise. Now Facebook's trying to play on Apple's turf. Here come da fail.
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post #4 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

"Facebook hopes "to use Apples own devices against them to break the stranglehold they have on mobile app distribution."

Apple failed (relatively speaking, anyway) with Ping because they stepped well beyond their realm of expertise. Now Facebook's trying to play on Apple's turf. Here come da fail.

Ping also sounded like Bing. Not perhaps the happiest coincidence.
This is important! Someone is wrong on the internet
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This is important! Someone is wrong on the internet
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post #5 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:20pm
Lolwut? Like web apps are somehow new, and are somehow a threat to iOS native apps. Anyway, if this framework will be as riddled with security and privacy problems as Facebook's own platform, no thanks.
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post #6 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

TechCrunch's MG Siegler reports Facebook is coordinating the effort in order to maintain control over web apps without having to submit to the App Store terms. According to people familiar with the project, Facebook hopes "to use Apples own devices against them to break the stranglehold they have on mobile app distribution."

And I'm pretty sure Apple is just fine with it. They've always said HTML5/Javascript/AJAX is perfectly legitimate way to develop iPhone apps. I don't see how anyone is using it "against" Apple.
"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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"And just like that, everyone here realizes you're just another sweaty little Google licker with an axe to grind and no idea what he's talking about." --addabox
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post #7 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:26pm
So... they're trying to do an iOS specific website that acts exactly like their present webpage does on PCs, with HTML5 apps instead of the present flash apps... and you're inventing a conspiracy theory as if this is something revolutionary?...
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post #8 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:29pm
I fail to see how this move would hurt Apple?
Facebook is trying to improve its revenue stream by making FB apps available on mobile, so what Apple is 'losing' is a 30% cut on games and other FB gadgets that don't exist yet on mobile.
Experience shows that games in Web-App form are inferior to Native game Apps. Zynga who's the prominent game developer for FB already offers its products as native apps on Apple's AppStore.
If anyone gets hurt in this it's Adobe, as FB is pushing developers to abandon Flash.
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post #9 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:29pm
FT.com got there first. released yesterday!
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post #10 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:30pm
Facebook is going to get a lot of online game makers to ditch Flash for HTML5? I'm sure Apple is quaking in their boots.

When Facebook's own site looks better in Safari than it does on MyPad+ or other native apps I'll start to worry about it replacing native apps. Until then, Facebook is just going to help Apple sell more devices.
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post #11 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A new report claims social network Facebook is partnering with roughly 80 developers on a secretive "Project Spartan" HTML5-based application platform that would circumvent Apple's App Store on iOS devices.

"Circumvent?" Really? Apple has always encouraged this type of distribution and provides a stunning mobile browser to that end. Apple even has sessions at WWDC to accomplish just this type of thing.

Silly article premise.
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post #12 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:33pm
This could hurt Apple if developers see it as a way to avoid giving Apple their 30% cut. They could either develop their own HTML5 webapps or they could join up with Facebook (a large and influential internet company). If enough developers do it, Apple could be hurting.
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post #13 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:35pm
Another nail in Flash's coffin.
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post #14 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:38pm
Just what I was about to say! I don't see how this hurts Apple? This site is no longer AppleInsider - It is becoming more like AppleEnquirer! It is trying so hard to post every story it can to take every pot shot at Apple as possible.

BTW, There is a financial reason why Facebook is doing this. Facebook wants to get every penny from all the Ads the would like to sprinkle (if you notice there is no ads on Facebook App on iPhone and also a reason they haven't developed one for iPad yet) Facebook knows that folks are going to move over to iPads or other tablets for their Facebook interactions and if they can't display ADs without paying Apple a pie of that using their Apps. Going to HTML5 and web-based apps, they are free of pushing ads and don't worry about giving anything to Apple.
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post #15 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:40pm
Bothers me not. Sick of all the juvenile dos within that FB ecosystem. Twitter works much better for moi.
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post #16 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:40pm
Who uses the FaceBook spy network anyhow?!

"Here we have the worlds most comprehensive database about people, their relationships, their names, their addresses, their locations, their communications with each other, and their relatives, all sitting within the United States, all accessible to US Intelligence.:

http://thenextweb.com/facebook/2011/...been-invented/
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post #17 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:43pm
Blah, I passionately all things Facebook. I have to use it, my clients want it but have no clue how to use it, so I am forced to learn it, at least enough to show them the basics and link it into their websites. Facebook is so illogical and while I can code HTML no problem, their system seems so wonky and covoluted.

For myself, I do use Twitter, so I was happy to hear that Apple was incorporating that more in iOS5. But certainly there room for everyone and people will use what works best for them.
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post #18 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

This could hurt Apple if developers see it as a way to avoid giving Apple their 30% cut. They could either develop their own HTML5 webapps or they could join up with Facebook (a large and influential internet company). If enough developers do it, Apple could be hurting.

Agree.

And for those who are not paying attention, and I know all the fanboys will say "Microsoft who dat!?", but those guys in Redmond are investing a ton in pefecting HTML 5 rendering and HTML 5 authoring tools. That's good I think because we will soon be able to run any app, not just those Steve approves of, on our iDevices. Of course Steve may decide to not support HTML 5. Time will tell how this next battle plays out.
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post #19 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Who uses the FaceBook spy network anyhow?!

Pretty much everybody but you it seems.
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post #20 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:45pm
30% of Free App (which is what Facebook charges for their current iPhone App) is still zero. So I don't think that would be Facebook's concern. I don't think any of the iOS Apple developers are going to jump the ship and go back to WebApps just because they would have o give 30% to Apple. When WebApps was the only way on iPhone, the developers complained and asked for a native support as they knew it would have lot richer capability.

BTW, Google is delivering WebApps based app for iPhone. The GUI is rich, but interaction and response is pretty sad. They just pop you into the browser - I rarely use it.
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post #21 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whytoi View Post

Bothers me not. Sick of all the juvenile dos within that FB ecosystem. Twitter works much better for moi.

It would be interesting to see how your statement would have turned out if Apple had embraced Facebook and not Twitter.
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post #22 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360 View Post

30% of Free App (which is what Facebook charges for their current iPhone App) is still zero. So I don't think that would be Facebook's concern. I don't think any of the iOS Apple developers are going to jump the ship and go back to WebApps just because they would have o give 30% to Apple. When WebApps was the only way on iPhone, the developers complained and asked for a native support as they knew it would have lot richer capability.

BTW, Google is delivering WebApps based app for iPhone. The GUI is rich, but interaction and response is pretty sad. They just pop you into the browser - I rarely use it.

What you may not understand is that Facebook users spend tons of time playing games within Facebook. And while people are playing games, ads are displayed on the screen. But these games are all (?) written in Flash. So this little revenue stream is not available to Facebook on the iPlatfoms.

This HTML 5 idea is to allow this revenue stream to become available again to Facebook.
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post #23 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

Agree.

And for those who are not paying attention, and I know all the fanboys will say "Microsoft who dat!?", but those guys in Redmond are investing a ton in pefecting HTML 5 rendering and HTML 5 authoring tools. That's good I think because we will soon be able to run any app, not just those Steve approves of, on our iDevices. Of course Steve may decide to not support HTML 5. Time will tell how this next battle plays out.

it's funny how you mentioned that Microsoft is pushing HTML5. I think Safari has been supporting HTML5 for a while and Firefox even longer. Hmmm! I wonder what MS has to say about video support of HTML5 - I guess they are pushing SilverLight still. Yes, IE9 has support for HTML5, but not completely. I wonder how much of HTML5 is supported on MS properties also.
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post #24 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Who uses the FaceBook spy network anyhow?!

"Here we have the worlds most comprehensive database about people, their relationships, their names, their addresses, their locations, their communications with each other, and their relatives, all sitting within the United States, all accessible to US Intelligence.:

http://thenextweb.com/facebook/2011/...been-invented/

Who? Really? You don't realize how popular it is with just about everyone with a computer and internet access? I'll give you a hint: it's freaking HUGE.
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post #25 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:54pm
Not if people keep buying iOS devices. App store exists to sell hardware. If the number of apps decreases then the cost of maintaining these apps will decrease. Apples 90% of profit is from hardware sales. I fail to see how in any scenario how Apple will hurt.

If html5 apps get so good that they are as good as native apps thats still good for apple. They can slowly shut down the app store forget the 30 percent cut and sell loads of hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

This could hurt Apple if developers see it as a way to avoid giving Apple their 30% cut. They could either develop their own HTML5 webapps or they could join up with Facebook (a large and influential internet company). If enough developers do it, Apple could be hurting.
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post #26 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

This could hurt Apple if developers see it as a way to avoid giving Apple their 30% cut. They could either develop their own HTML5 webapps or they could join up with Facebook (a large and influential internet company). If enough developers do it, Apple could be hurting.

It could, if the revenue generated by the App Store was significant to Apple. As it stands, the revenue is a drop in the bucket compared to hardware revenue, and according to Apple only serves to cover the cost of running the store.

The iTunes Music Store, the App Store... these are all just value-adding features that create a rich ecosystem that hook people on Apple's hardware. Having HTML5 webapps available on iOS devices doesn't remove any value; if anything, it adds it, as it reduces the "it doesn't have Flash" argument.
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post #27 of 133
6/15/11 at 9:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

What you may not understand is that Facebook users spend tons of time playing games within Facebook. And while people are playing games, ads are displayed on the screen. But these games are all (?) written in Flash. So this little revenue stream is not available to Facebook on the iPlatfoms.

This HTML 5 idea is to allow this revenue stream to become available again to Facebook.

Yes, people do play games on Facebook and I don't think that is stream of revenue goes to Zynga and other game developers for Facebook. But, if you think they are moving to HTML 5 for lack of Flash on iOS devices, than they are showing that middle finger to Adobe and not Apple! They basically are validating what Apple has been saying all along. Again, what does that have to do with the real "conspiracy" story about non-native Apps.
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post #28 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:00pm
Wow, I'm all a Twitter.
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post #29 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

Agree.

And for those who are not paying attention, and I know all the fanboys will say "Microsoft who dat!?", but those guys in Redmond are investing a ton in pefecting HTML 5 rendering and HTML 5 authoring tools. That's good I think because we will soon be able to run any app, not just those Steve approves of, on our iDevices. Of course Steve may decide to not support HTML 5. Time will tell how this next battle plays out.

You realize that Apple has been actively pushing the HTML5 standard for several years, releasing the WebKit engine and promoting Canvas and h.264 playback?

Apple WANTS to see HTML5 succeed. Before the App Store, Apple was promoting webapps; they just weren't fully baked yet, and developers and the consumer market have gravitated to local apps.
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post #30 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:03pm
Facebook: "Do Evil."
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #31 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ny3ranger View Post

Not if people keep buying iOS devices. App store exists to sell hardware. If the number of apps decreases then the cost of maintaining these apps will decrease. Apples 90% of profit is from hardware sales. I fail to see how in any scenario how Apple will hurt.

If html5 apps get so good that they are as good as native apps thats still good for apple. They can slowly shut down the app store forget the 30 percent cut and sell loads of hardware.

One quick thing: What sets Apple's mobile products apart for many people is the vibrant and varied App Store. If those apps are all available as web apps instead of native apps and are available to Android/Windows/HP/Blackberry users, what's going to keep anyone besides diehards buying Apple products? Sure they make great stuff and have a great ecosystem, but if the apps are available everywhere, there's nothing really setting them apart, so hardware sales will suffer.
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post #32 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

It could, if the revenue generated by the App Store was significant to Apple. As it stands, the revenue is a drop in the bucket compared to hardware revenue, and according to Apple only serves to cover the cost of running the store.

The iTunes Music Store, the App Store... these are all just value-adding features that create a rich ecosystem that hook people on Apple's hardware. Having HTML5 webapps available on iOS devices doesn't remove any value; if anything, it adds it, as it reduces the "it doesn't have Flash" argument.

As I stated to someone else, the problem is that if Facebook and other developers begin chasing after the web app dream and ditch native apps, these web apps will be available to all mobile users, which gives Apple nothing to differentiate itself, which will indeed hurt hardware sales.
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post #33 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:09pm
In the end, no matter where you stand on this, i think we can all agree this is good news for one reason: Flash is officially breathing its last slow, painful, wheezing breath.
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post #34 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

You realize that Apple has been actively pushing the HTML5 standard for several years, releasing the WebKit engine and promoting Canvas and h.264 playback?

Apple WANTS to see HTML5 succeed. Before the App Store, Apple was promoting webapps; they just weren't fully baked yet, and developers and the consumer market have gravitated to local apps.

yes i do realize . that was then, this is now.
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post #35 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360 View Post

Yes, people do play games on Facebook and I don't think that is stream of revenue goes to Zynga and other game developers for Facebook. But, if you think they are moving to HTML 5 for lack of Flash on iOS devices, than they are showing that middle finger to Adobe and not Apple! They basically are validating what Apple has been saying all along. Again, what does that have to do with the real "conspiracy" story about non-native Apps.

it has nothing to do with a conspiracy theory . it has to do with facebook controlling their destiny on ios.
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post #36 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360 View Post

it's funny how you mentioned that Microsoft is pushing HTML5. I think Safari has been supporting HTML5 for a while and Firefox even longer. Hmmm! I wonder what MS has to say about video support of HTML5 - I guess they are pushing SilverLight still. Yes, IE9 has support for HTML5, but not completely. I wonder how much of HTML5 is supported on MS properties also.

this is not about who did what in the past re html 5. it is about how the landscape is changing right now.
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post #37 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

As I stated to someone else, the problem is that if Facebook and other developers begin chasing after the web app dream and ditch native apps, these web apps will be available to all mobile users, which gives Apple nothing to differentiate itself, which will indeed hurt hardware sales.

First of all, HTML5 web apps were to replaced native apps, than all of the mobile platforms who shut down there app stores (Apple (iOS), Google (Android), Microsoft (WP7)) and there will be no differentiator. Secondly, from what I know HTML5 does not support gestures which can one of the key differentiators. HTML5 doe not support accelerometer. So, even if HTML5 can get some richness in application you are not going to get the bang without using the native Apps and there is no way in world the games are going to be rich using HTML5. Trust me, I played Angry Bird in Google Chrome browser (I assume they were using HTML5 animation, but I might be wrong) and the experience is just not the same as on my iPhone/iPad. And Angry Bird is not super graphic-rich game.
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post #38 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

One quick thing: What sets Apple's mobile products apart for many people is the vibrant and varied App Store. If those apps are all available as web apps instead of native apps and are available to Android/Windows/HP/Blackberry users, what's going to keep anyone besides diehards buying Apple products? Sure they make great stuff and have a great ecosystem, but if the apps are available everywhere, there's nothing really setting them apart, so hardware sales will suffer.

what he said!
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post #39 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

Pretty much everybody but you it seems.

Ha! Over 6.5 billion people on earth and well below 1 billion use it. So yeah, most don't.
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post #40 of 133
6/15/11 at 10:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360 View Post

First of all, HTML5 web apps were to replaced native apps, than all of the mobile platforms who shut down there app stores (Apple (iOS), Google (Android), Microsoft (WP7)) and there will be no differentiator. Secondly, from what I know HTML5 does not support gestures which can one of the key differentiators. HTML5 doe not support accelerometer. So, even if HTML5 can get some richness in application you are not going to get the bang without using the native Apps and there is no way in world the games are going to be rich using HTML5. Trust me, I played Angry Bird in Google Chrome browser (I assume they were using HTML5 animation, but I might be wrong) and the experience is just not the same as on my iPhone/iPad. And Angry Bird is not super graphic-rich game.

To your first point, that's exactly what I was saying. Without something to set platforms apart, Apple would be hurting because they wouldn't have the App Store to lean on to encourage sales.

Your second point in an excellent one. The lack of gesture support (thus far) and accelerometer/gyroscope support was something I had not even thought of. That would prevent a large number of developers ditching native apps -- at least until those things are integrated into HTML5 (if that's even possible).

Good post.
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